Shoot to Kill

Stovepipe

@hellsangel, the intimidation was very real and often manifested itself in the targeting of business owners and their families. It did happen and continues to happen in certain areas, as you well know if you do actually come from a Border town. With regard to how many Brits it took to kill Lynagh and his crew, does it actually matter? Any military textbook will tell you to achieve at least a three-to-one superiority in numbers before the fight and as you said yourself, it wasn't only the eight dead involved. There were more IRA involved in a scouting and route clearance role.

regards
Stovepipe

HellsAngel

Stovepipe wrote: »

@hellsangel, the intimidation was very real and often manifested itself in the targeting of business owners and their families. It did happen and continues to happen in certain areas, as you well know if you do actually come from a Border town.

:rolleyes: If intimadation was so common along the border, how come Sir Anthony O'Reilly's comics (Independent newspapers) haven't picked up on it or RTE or the issue raised in the Dail ? All of who would never miss a chance to do a bit of SF bashing ?? :rolleyes:

But naturally the Brits bombing border roads, harrassment at chckpoints and even murder ( eg Aidan McAnespie ) doesn't bother you in the least of course.

cruasder777

HellsAngel wrote: »

:rolleyes: If intimadation was so common along the border, how come Sir Anthony O'Reilly's comics (Independent newspapers) haven't picked up on it or RTE or the issue raised in the Dail ? All of who would never miss a chance to do a bit of SF bashing ?? :rolleyes:

But naturally the Brits bombing border roads, harrassment at chckpoints and even murder ( eg Aidan McAnespie ) doesn't bother you in the least of course.

The soldier must have been an incredible shot to deliberately shoot someone via a richochet.

wiki
Forensic evidence suggested that the fatal shot was one of three that had ricocheted off the road two metres behind McAnespie.[4][5] Charges were initially brought against Grenadier Guard Jonathan Holden for manslaughter but were dropped prior to prosecution.[3] He was fined for negligent discharge of the weapon and in 1990 was given a medical discharge.[6]

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

The soldier must have been an incredible shot to deliberately shoot someone via a richochet.

wiki
Forensic evidence suggested that the fatal shot was one of three that had ricocheted off the road two metres behind McAnespie.[4][5] Charges were initially brought against Grenadier Guard Jonathan Holden for manslaughter but were dropped prior to prosecution.[3] He was fined for negligent discharge of the weapon and in 1990 was given a medical discharge.[6]

:eek: The British army finding a British soldier innocent.......:rolleyes: I know who could give them justice though

xflyer

I can back up Stovepipe on this, having spent time in Monaghan around Lynagh's time. Yes there was an air of intimidation there at the time. Even defence force personnel were warned to keep their heads down and certain bars were out of bounds for them. Even then it was said of him that he had eight kills to his name and I'm not talking about in battles with British soldiers. He was one for knocking on doors and shooting people dead.

I cannot help wondering what age hellsbrink and paky are. I lived through those times and was eventually sickened by the actions of the IRA and what they did in our name. It seems to me there is a younger generation who now only read of it as propagandised history.

It always seem to me that Loughgall was a straightforward military operation. The IRA cell was wiped out in a classic military ambush. Tough luck, call them heroes if you like but don't complain that it was unfair. The very title of this thread is pure propaganda, Shoot to kill? The IRA planted a bomb and then opened fire. So the Brits shot back. That's war.

It always seems to me that the apologists for IRA actions are quick to ignore the slaughter of innocent civilians on the part of the IRA. For people to complain about a bunch of volunteers getting killed in action but to ignore the scores of men, women and children who were slaughterd by the IRA in the name of Ireland is sickeningly hypocritical.

It was a terrible time in Irish history, a shameful period where being Irish meant you couldn't go anywhere without being associated with terrorism and atrocities.

HellsAngel

Outrage by defenders of the British state regarding the troubles should be taken with a large pinch of salt as the said outrage is largely determined by just who does the killing & who does the dying. Their great 'heros' the SAS and RUC Special Branch etc as part of the Brit dirty tricks campaign were up to their necks invovled with arming and directing the loyalists throughout the troubles. And for what reason do they carry out such terrorism - out of a warped sense of adventure and macho thrist to inflict violence on others. But when the tables are turned and their on the receiving end we have to watch the hypocritical whingeing about the injustice of ' terrorism ' :rolleyes:

shaneybaby

xflyer wrote: »

I can back up Stovepipe on this, having spent time in Monaghan around Lynagh's time....It was a terrible time in Irish history, a shameful period where being Irish meant you couldn't go anywhere without being associated with terrorism and atrocities.

excellent post, fair play.

Wolfe Tone

cruasder777 wrote: »

The soldier must have been an incredible shot to deliberately shoot someone via a richochet.

wiki
Forensic evidence suggested that the fatal shot was one of three that had ricocheted off the road two metres behind McAnespie.[4][5] Charges were initially brought against Grenadier Guard Jonathan Holden for manslaughter but were dropped prior to prosecution.[3] He was fined for negligent discharge of the weapon and in 1990 was given a medical discharge.[6]

Why did you not quote this bit?

In June 2008, the Police Service of Northern Ireland Historical Enquiries Team published its findings on the case. The report called the soldier's explanation for the killing the "least likely version" of what happened. The Ministry of Defence said it had co-operated with the inquiry and understood that this did not uncover any new evidence that would warrant further investigation.[5] In October 2008, a Police Service of Northern Ireland investigation concluded that Jonathan Holden's gun required 9 lbs of pressure to pull the trigger, and that the soldier's account of the events were highly unlikely. It described the chances of this occurring, combined with hitting McAnespie by accident as, "so remote as to be virtually disregarded".[14]

xflyer

What the Brits did or didn't do doesn't justify the Bloody Friday, Birmingham, Guildford, Enniskillen, Warrington to name but a well known few. It doesn't justify any of many less well known murders and bombings which you conveniently ignore. The IRA murdered a lot of people over the years........for Ireland!

I'm no apologist for the what the British or Loyalists did. But they didn't claim to be representing me when they did it.

The fact that you don't want to face up to the fact that the IRA campaign became terrorist in nature and essentially failed. A fact they themselves recognised to the point where they abandoned it and now share power with their enemies.

They moved on, maybe you should too.

cruasder777

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why did you not quote this bit?

An accidental discharge or at worst firing a shot at the ground which then kills the unfortnate victim is harly the same as what the PIRA did.

The soldier was charged with manslaughter, but there was not enough evidence to prosecute.

Thats the reality, never mind the hysteria.

quote
In June 2008, the Police Service of Northern Ireland Historical Enquiries Team published its findings on the case. The report called the soldier's explanation for the killing the "least likely version" of what happened.


......The soldier said hes wet hands slipped on the trigger, its impossible to know if thats true or not or if its the least likely version.

Wolfe Tone

cruasder777 wrote: »

An accidental discharge or at worst firing a shot at the ground which then kills the unfortnate victim is harly the same as what the PIRA did.

The soldier was charged with manslaughter, but there was not enough evidence to prosecute.

Thats the reality, never mind the hysteria.

quote
In June 2008, the Police Service of Northern Ireland Historical Enquiries Team published its findings on the case. The report called the soldier's explanation for the killing the "least likely version" of what happened.


......The soldier said hes wet hands slipped on the trigger, its impossible to know if thats true or not or if its the least likely version.

Thankfully the HET are not as gullible as yourself, its clear as day what happened, the soldier murdered him, then the Brits, as they have done so many times before, made up some bullsh!t excuse to try and whitewash this away, one so bad that the HET said the chances of it being true are "so remote as to be virtually disregarded".

'In respect of why a bullet should strike the ground less that two metres behind Aidan at 283.4 metres range, the HET report is clear that 'the chances of it being un-aimed or random seem so remote in the circumstances that they can be virtually disregarded'.

cruasder777

'In respect of why a bullet should strike the ground less that two metres behind Aidan at 283.4 metres range, the HET report is clear that 'the chances of it being un-aimed or random seem so remote in the circumstances that they can be virtually disregarded'.


...............Not remote at all, thousands of people have been killed from richochets from accidental/neglegent weapon discharges.

Fratton Fred

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thankfully the HET are not as gullible as yourself, its clear as day what happened, the soldier murdered him, then the Brits, as they have done so many times before, made up some bullsh!t excuse to try and whitewash this away, one so bad that the HET said the chances of it being true are "so remote as to be virtually disregarded".

Gullible?

From the man who claims the IRA didn't target civilians!

I suppose if they had warned him first it would have been ok to kill him, no?

It wasn't me!

cruasder777 wrote: »

thousands of people have been killed from richochets from accidental/neglegent weapon discharges.

Yeah, but the angle involved means it's likely bollocks. Ricochets are inherently unpredictable, but that's a massive turn. If it were a fragment of the bullet or jacket, it would be believable, but they tend not to penetrate, and the main part of the bullet would lose an enormous amount of velocity and energy through that angular change.

cruasder777

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yeah, but the angle involved means it's likely bollocks. Ricochets are inherently unpredictable, but that's a massive turn. If it were a fragment of the bullet or jacket, it would be believable, but they tend not to penetrate, and the main part of the bullet would lose an enormous amount of velocity and energy through that angular change.

wiki
Forensic evidence suggested that the fatal shot was one of three that had ricocheted off the road two metres behind McAnespie.[4][5]


Its impossible to know if it was deliberate or an accident, but one things for certain Sinn fein/IRA are not intrested in the truth only exploting things even via lies if needed for their own ends, as this picture shows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mcanespie_road_side.jpg

Dave Joyce

What the Brits did or didn't do doesn't justify the Bloody Friday, Birmingham, Guildford, Enniskillen, Warrington to name but a well known few. It doesn't justify any of many less well known murders and bombings which you conveniently ignore. The IRA murdered a lot of people over the years........for Ireland!

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with those that abhor IRA "violence" IF they equally abhorred Brit violence equally BUT this is where their pro Brit agenda comes to the fore!! A couple of things:

Its amazing how those people who abhor violence focus only on the current century when the REASON for its very existence is the 800 years of occupation and oppression (with a great many REAL atrocities occurring during this time) of this island. However, seeing as some people were bringing up IRA violence, I suppose the innocent victims of plastic bullets (alone!!) like Julie Livingstone or Sean Downes did something to deserve what happened to them or Nora Mc Cabe etc etc And YET you'ed wonder how come no Brit was EVER punished for THEIR crimes????

It was a terrible time in Irish history, a shameful period where being Irish meant you couldn't go anywhere without being associated with terrorism and atrocities.

Finally, this "historic" quote:rolleyes: Jesus, is it very comforting for you to forget the shameful CENTURIES of British atrocities committed in this country. As I said earlier if you going to condemn, at least be consistent in your condemnations rather than the one sided SHAMEFUL agenda you have.

Stovepipe

@hellsangel,
Any attempt at discussion of the Troubles tends to degenerate into whataboutery and this one is no different. I still stand by what I said about SF/IRA intimidation (and I'm quite sure it happened/happens on the other lot's patch) and the current legacy of the intimidation is reflected in tonight's RTE news item about diesel laundering in Monaghan and Fermanagh, which naturally involves a great deal of intimidation, overt and covert, for it to work. The police on both sides of the Border know who's at it, the locals do and the Governments do, but need hard evidence to nail them.Forget the history lesson of Loughall and look to the present.

regards
Stovepipe

Fratton Fred

Dave Joyce wrote: »

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with those that abhor IRA "violence" IF they equally abhorred Brit violence equally BUT this is where their pro Brit agenda comes to the fore!! A couple of things:

Its amazing how those people who abhor violence focus only on the current century when the REASON for its very existence is the 800 years of occupation and oppression (with a great many REAL atrocities occurring during this time) of this island. However, seeing as some people were bringing up IRA violence, I suppose the innocent victims of plastic bullets (alone!!) like Julie Livingstone or Sean Downes did something to deserve what happened to them or Nora Mc Cabe etc etc And YET you'ed wonder how come no Brit was EVER punished for THEIR crimes????



Finally, this "historic" quote:rolleyes: Jesus, is it very comforting for you to forget the shameful CENTURIES of British atrocities committed in this country. As I said earlier if you going to condemn, at least be consistent in your condemnations rather than the one sided SHAMEFUL agenda you have.

How do you rate Celtic's chances this season?

xflyer

Here we go, c'mon Dave tell me how how 12 year old Tim Parry deserved to have his body torn apart for IRELAND, tell me again how three year old Jonathon Ball deserved to die because of his culpability for 800 years of British oppression, the bastard.

Justify it please, you effing hero!

You don't have to be 'pro brit' to see that. One of my best friends is IRA, he did hard time for his actions. Not only that he is unreformed and and doesn't buy into the peace process to the point where the Branch hassle him. But quite frankly he's a better man than you. On the other hand I have a friend, a Brit, who won't tell me all he ever did. When the two get together it's very interesting. Mutual respect.

I personally hate the fact that part of my country is part of another country. But I won't kill children to change that fact.

Clearly you have no problem with that.

Fishtits

As per usual, I think you'll find that most posters that "understand" the PIRA campaign never lifted a weapon in their life, let alone trained their sights and pulled the trigger to extinguish a life, or for that matter dealt with a dead body - or the bits of it.

Or had to think about their actions after all was done.

The Brits were no angels, but killing folk to make a point is sensless.

I'm glad we've moved on from that era.

From one who was there, it was a dirty. disgusting time.

I'm glad its history.

iceage

Just keep zeroing in on the OP's title post. Was any of them (on both sides) trained not to shoot to kill?



(Had a massive post, but this really cuts to the bone of it)

Alopex

Loughall was done to send a message to the PIRA. At that time they had successfully bombed some RUC stations in rural areas. Was giving the impression they could control the area. Well the ambush taught them otherwise.

I don't understand why republicans complain about it. If it was a war then they were legitimate targets. Same with the three in Gibraltar. Could you imagine we came on here condemning the IRA "shoot to kill whilst soldier is lying in his bed asleep" policy.

Aidan McAnespie is a different story altogether. That was disgusting. The soldier who killed him should have got life for that.

OS119

Alopex wrote: »

Loughall was done to send a message to the PIRA. At that time they had successfully bombed some RUC stations in rural areas. Was giving the impression they could control the area. Well the ambush taught them otherwise.

Loughall wasn't done to send a message, Loughall was done because it could be done - PIRA in ET and SA were heading towards the stage where they were morphing from a traditional terrorist group to a Flying Column of an actual military insurgency.

such 'acheivement' carries a massive political win - you can actually say that the Queens Writ no longer runs here, that this is 'liberated territory'. however it also carries massive risks - primarily the risk is that you will get into contact not on your terms, but on the enemy's terms.

thats what happened - they went 'military' instead of 'terrorist', and forgot that the advantages they had as terrorists fighting a big military went out of the window when they became small military fighting big military.

that hitting the Loughall job meant removing some of those within PIRA who were most opposed to what appeared to be a change in strategy - and those who had the credibility within the movement to successfully oppose it - was a bonus, but Loughall only happened because ET PIRA thought they could repeatedly turn up outside a police station with a van and a stolen digger, shoot the **** out of it, blow it up and get clean away.

HellsAngel

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Gullible?

From the man who claims the IRA didn't target civilians!

I suppose if they had warned him first it would have been ok to kill him, no?

From the man who claims that it was never the policy of the British army to kill civilians !!!!

Wolfe Tone

HellsAngel wrote: »

From the man who claims that it was never the policy of the British army to kill civilians !!!!

It seems Fred disagrees with the HET, or perhaps he wishes to deflect and distract from another exposed British atrocity and cover-up.


Probably a bit of both.

HellsAngel

OS119 wrote: »

Loughall wasn't done to send a message, Loughall was done because it could be done - PIRA in ET and SA were heading towards the stage where they were morphing from a traditional terrorist group to a Flying Column of an actual military insurgency.

such 'acheivement' carries a massive political win - you can actually say that the Queens Writ no longer runs here, that this is 'liberated territory'. however it also carries massive risks - primarily the risk is that you will get into contact not on your terms, but on the enemy's terms.

thats what happened - they went 'military' instead of 'terrorist', and forgot that the advantages they had as terrorists fighting a big military went out of the window when they became small military fighting big military.

that hitting the Loughall job meant removing some of those within PIRA who were most opposed to what appeared to be a change in strategy - and those who had the credibility within the movement to successfully oppose it - was a bonus, but Loughall only happened because ET PIRA thought they could repeatedly turn up outside a police station with a van and a stolen digger, shoot the **** out of it, blow it up and get clean away.

You have a point there regarding the whole stratedgy. No matter how many attacks they made, teams of men 8/9 strong couldn't in a full military sense take over the place. It was a badly thought out stratedgy in my opinion. The killings themselves were as I have stated before were far from been the ' killer blow ' to the IRA in the area as was seen wiith the nearby Ballygawley bus bombing.

Exile 1798

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi all,
Let's just add a few salient facts here. 13 RUC officers were injured, some severely, in the bomb attack on the police station that preceeded the IRA opening fire, so it wasn't a one-sided wipeout.An innocent civilian was also killed. Also, from knowing something of Monaghan life on the Southern side, Lynagh and his crew were regarded as little more than intimidating Mafia-style thugs by a very large section of the locals. There was precious little sympathy for him, as his gang held a lot of people in fear.
regards
Stovepipe

Stovepipe wrote: »

@HA, the 13 wounded RUC were in the building, so they were direct victims of the tractor bomb. With regard to the dead civilian in a boiler suit, I'm probably wrong but wasn't there a photo published at the time of him, as he sat dead in his car, in a pair of overalls. With regard to the dead Lynagh's reputation in Monaghan, I heard it first hand from people who have lived in the Monaghan border area for generations. Intimidation of local shopkeepers to shut their doors always happened everytime there was a Shinner commemoration or march in Monaghan. Ask any Garda about the atmosphere in Monaghan Town whenever something kicked off when the Shinners were involved. Ask about the intimidation when the monument to the Loughall Ambush was built. You might have a few facts made clear to you.
regards
Stovepipe

I've never heard this 13 RUC officers business. All accounts I've read state that there was an SAS unit of approximately 6 stationed in the barracks with 1 RUC officer. The bomb went off after not before the firing had started. One SAS gunman and the RUC officer were injured.

What's the source of this "salient fact" of "13 RUC officers" injured?

My family is from Monaghan. To say Monaghan IRA were regarded as thugs by a section of the locals would be correct. To say there was "precious little" sympathy for them would be incorrect. Lynagh was elected and twice re-elected as a councillor. This was a man who was an ex-prisoner and well known to be senior IRA leader. He wasn't a councillor in name only but was a very active one right up to his death.

Monaghan Town was the usual mix of Republicans, Nationalists, and neutrals. Unusually it had a number of old Unionist families. North Monaghan up to the border was staunchly Republican.

The civilian Anthony Hughes was not wearing a boiler suit, nor was he caught up in cross-fire and nor was he reversing as claimed by the soldiers who shot him. It's the media's fault for repeating the "doomed by his boiler suit" line in every article or report that mentions Anthony Hughes over the past 20 years.

At approximately 11.15pm on Friday 8th Mr James Smyth Wallace a Forensic Scientific Officer arrived at the scene. He examined the bodies and firearms in order to allow them to be removed from the scene. Mr Wallace's report details the positions of the bodies and their clothing.

......

Body 9: Anthony Hughes

"This body was seated, with the seat belt on, in the drivers seat of a white Citroen GS Special car, reg. no. OIA 3428. The body was dressed in a polonecked pullover and jeans. There was no boiler suit, hood or gloves on the body."

On examination of the vehicles Mr Wallace reported that all the shots directed at the Hughes car had originated from the Security forces. There were 34 bullets that struck the Hughes car. 26 of these were fired from behind.

"The bulk of the shooting at the Citroen car was intentional as opposed to the car being caught in crossfire." The IRA shots were "directed at the RUC station as evidenced by the damage to the perimeter fence and the bullet strike marks on the front of the station."

http://www.patfinucanecentre.org/cases/loughgal.html

OS119

HellsAngel wrote: »

You have a point there regarding the whole stratedgy. No matter how many attacks they made, teams of men 8/9 strong couldn't in a full military sense take over the place. It was a badly thought out stratedgy in my opinion. The killings themselves were as I have stated before were far from been the ' killer blow ' to the IRA in the area as was seen wiith the nearby Ballygawley bus bombing.

it depends on how nuanced you want to be.

at first glance you are obviously correct, post Loughall there was activity, ergo Loughall didn't stop that activity.

however, PIRA strategy (and this strategy has a long history going back to the IRA of the war of independance) all through the 70's and 80's was that you start as a 'terrorist' cell, do the 'terrorist' thing - assassination etc, then when you have created an environment where the police can no longer walk the streets and you have significant, relatively open public support, you have change from 'hidden' operations to 'overt' operations - you form a Flying Column, you attack, and decisively engage, the enemy in order to physically drive the enemy off of your patch. they thought that without being able to changeover to a flying column-type movement, they would not win, just stay as PIRA then was and not actually acheive the goal.

ET and SA were both begining to think that they, unlike any PIRA unit in the conflict so far, were at the cusp of making that changeover (and, to be fair, they had reason to think that that was begining to be on the cards), so they started 'flying colum-lite' operations which were very successfull, the problem was that they both moved too early, and failed to appreciate that they were beginging to play a whole new ball game - one that they had never played before but their enemy was very good at.

the 'defeated the PIRA' idea comes about not because PIRA were phyically defeated by Loughall, which of course they weren't, but that PIRA saw that 'the big plan': Terrorism-Insurgency-Open Conflict-Victory was a crap plan, and that they needed another.

HellsAngel

OS119 wrote: »

it depends on how nuanced you want to be.

at first glance you are obviously correct, post Loughall there was activity, ergo Loughall didn't stop that activity.

however, PIRA strategy (and this strategy has a long history going back to the IRA of the war of independance) all through the 70's and 80's was that you start as a 'terrorist' cell, do the 'terrorist' thing - assassination etc, then when you have created an environment where the police can no longer walk the streets and you have significant, relatively open public support, you have change from 'hidden' operations to 'overt' operations - you form a Flying Column, you attack, and decisively engage, the enemy in order to physically drive the enemy off of your patch. they thought that without being able to changeover to a flying column-type movement, they would not win, just stay as PIRA then was and not actually acheive the goal.

ET and SA were both begining to think that they, unlike any PIRA unit in the conflict so far, were at the cusp of making that changeover (and, to be fair, they had reason to think that that was begining to be on the cards), so they started 'flying colum-lite' operations which were very successfull, the problem was that they both moved too early, and failed to appreciate that they were beginging to play a whole new ball game - one that they had never played before but their enemy was very good at.

the 'defeated the PIRA' idea comes about not because PIRA were phyically defeated by Loughall, which of course they weren't, but that PIRA saw that 'the big plan': Terrorism-Insurgency-Open Conflict-Victory was a crap plan, and that they needed another.

Not too sure with the above. The IRA in the six counties are always going to be engaged in a different type of conflict as apart from the border regions and places like the Bogside in Derry ( Free Derry), it's not like they are dealing with an almost 100% nationalist population with varying degrees of support from individual to individual like down in Cork and Tipperary 1919 -1921 etc Other areas of the north they were always going to be very much in a minority and act more like a defensive force, North Armagh, Belfast, Antrim etc indeed being good examples.

Besides possibly the IRA's most effective actions were those carried out by Vinny Byrne and co 1919 - 1921. They certainly weren't going around in " flying colum type " operations ( with possibly the disastourous Dev inspired attack on the Customs house).

Not only were the IRA in most of the north 1969 - dealing with a potentially hostile population of people i.e. unionists, with quite a lot of them in the UDR and RUC and reserves etc, the vastly greater means of survalience not to mention helicopters etc to move around in, meant the the IRA of teh troubles could never try the stuff that Tom Barry and Dan Breen etc could do when the fireworks and telegrams and 30mph Crossley tenders were the cutting edge of technology.

Exile 1798

paky wrote: »

I can remember watching a documentary on the loughall martyrs and one of the victims brothers was been interviewed. He mentioned that even though the murders were a success for the security forces, the impact of the murders had a different effect on the nationalist community. Support rose for the IRA and the number of bombings and shootings increased the following year. I was just wondering how this was so if 8 experienced guerilla fighters are killed, who is there to train the new fighters and why would there be a rise in support? I thought at least this would be devastating to IRA moral? please dont turn this into a p.issing contest.
thanks

The common misconception is that the IRA's East Tyrone Brigade was wiped out at Loughgall. It was not, one unit was wiped out, though it included the Brigade's commander Patrick Kelly.

Another misconception is that Loughall was the end of "flying columns." Despite "flying columns" being a concept Jim Lynagh advocated, Loughall was not carried out by a flying column but by a regular ASU, the very same that had carried out a number of similar attacks against RUC barracks in the previous years.

In fact, flying columns, were implemented after Loughall. Two years after Loughall the East Tyrone Brigade carried out an attack on the Derryard checkpoint near Rosslea which involved around 20 Volunteers who were actually a flying column in the sense that they were a force from different units formulated for a specific operation. That is to say they were operating well outside of the normal ASU structure that was present at Loughall. Derryard flys in the face of much commonly accepted thought surrounding security, cell structure, flying columns and how the IRA tried to minimise the effects of potential informers. It also shows that post-Loughall the confidence and ability of the East Tyrone IRA was still high.

Ed Maloney covers Loughall and Derryard quite extensively in his book A Secret History, as does Toby Harnden in Bandit Country. But for a brief overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA5k-5EX3YA

cruasder777

Exile 1798 wrote: »

The common misconception is that the IRA's East Tyrone Brigade was wiped out at Loughgall. It was not, one unit was wiped out, though it included the Brigade's commander Patrick Kelly.

Another misconception is that Loughall was the end of "flying columns." Despite "flying columns" being a concept Jim Lynagh advocated, Loughall was not carried out by a flying column but by a regular ASU, the very same that had carried out a number of similar attacks against RUC barracks in the previous years.

In fact, flying columns, were implemented after Loughall. Two years after Loughall the East Tyrone Brigade carried out an attack on the Derryard checkpoint near Rosslea which involved around 20 Volunteers who were actually a flying column in the sense that they were a force from different units formulated for a specific operation. That is to say they were operating well outside of the normal ASU structure that was present at Loughall. Derryard flys in the face of much commonly accepted thought surrounding security, cell structure, flying columns and how the IRA tried to minimise the effects of potential informers. It also shows that post-Loughall the confidence and ability of the East Tyrone IRA was still high.

Ed Maloney covers Loughall and Derryard quite extensively in his book A Secret History, as does Toby Harnden in Bandit Country. But for a brief overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA5k-5EX3YA

The tactic was a disaster, the SAS effectively wiped out East Tyrone PIRA. They took out 28 of them in ambushes from 87-92.

Ed Moloney, Irish journalist and author of the "A Secret History of the IRA", and author Brendan O'Brien state that the brigade lost 53 members killed in the Troubles - the highest of any 'Brigade' area.[14] Of these, 28 were killed between 1987 and 1992.[15]

Exile 1798

cruasder777 wrote: »

The tactic was a disaster, the SAS effectively wiped out East Tyrone PIRA. They took out 28 of them in ambushes from 87-92.

Ed Moloney, Irish journalist and author of the "A Secret History of the IRA", and author Brendan O'Brien state that the brigade lost 53 members killed in the Troubles - the highest of any 'Brigade' area.[14] Of these, 28 were killed between 1987 and 1992.[15]

Loughall was a diaster, the tactic were not was not as it was implemented many times succesfully.

I don't know what the point of selectively quoting a wikipedia page is, especially when that same page contradicts your own premise.:rolleyes:

In the aftermath of the Loughgall ambush

The SAS ambush had no noticeable long-term effect on the level of IRA activity in East Tyrone. In the two years prior to the Loughgall ambush the IRA killed seven people in East Tyrone and North Armagh, and eleven in the two years following the ambush. Most of the attacks which took place in County Fermanagh during this period of the Troubles were also launched from south Tyrone and Monaghan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_East_Tyrone_Brigade

HellsAngel

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Ed Maloney covers Loughall and Derryard quite extensively in his book A Secret History, as does Toby Harnden in Bandit Country. But for a brief overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA5k-5EX3YA

cruasder777 wrote: »

Ed Moloney, Irish journalist and author of the "A Secret History of the IRA", and author Brendan O'Brien state that the brigade lost 53 members killed in the Troubles - the highest of any 'Brigade' area.[14] Of these, 28 were killed between 1987 and 1992.[15]

Ed Moloney has an Excellent book on Paisley. Apart from that, he's generally a conspiracy theorist, possibly since he's more and more dependent on writing for Sir Tony O'Reilly's comics.

cruasder777

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Loughall was a diaster, the tactic were not was not as it was implemented many times succesfully.

I don't know what the point of selectively quoting a wikipedia page is, especially when that same page contradicts your own premise.:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_East_Tyrone_Brigade

Of course it was a disaster, it got East Tyrone brigade wiped out, I dont dispute they had successful operations.

Im hardly going to copy and paste the whole wiki page.

Exile 1798

cruasder777 wrote: »

Of course it was a disaster, it got East Tyrone brigade wiped out, I dont dispute they had successful operations.

Im hardly going to copy and paste the whole wiki page.

Except it didn't - this is a misconception born of a misnomer which you are simply repeating over and over again.

Unless you have anything worthwhile to add, or any actual evidence to back up your baseless assertions, I'm going to leave the issue as it stands.

cruasder777

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Except it didn't - this is a misconception born of a misnomer which you are simply repeating over and over again.

Unless you have anything worthwhile to add, or any actual evidence to back up your baseless assertions, I'm going to leave the issue as it stands.

28 of their most experienced members got wiped out in 5 years, fact.

In comparison South Armagh brigade lost 9 members in 30 years.

Exile 1798

cruasder777 wrote: »

28 of their most experienced members got wiped out in 5 years, fact.

In comparison South Armagh brigade lost 9 members in 30 years.

LOL, crusader – how about you read you own claims back to yourself, then you might see how silly they appear, and how obvious it is that you are making them up as you go.

"28 of their most experienced members got wiped out in 5 years, fact"

That truly is an amazing fact, that the British Army killed 28 members of the Tyrone IRA and every single one of them were "their most experienced members" A truly incredible record!

Approximately 10 of those killed could be called experienced. Jim Lynagh, Patrick Kelly, Pádraig McKearney and Gerard O’Callaghan killed at Loughall. Pete Ryan and Lawrence McNally in Cappagh, Gerard Harte and Brian Mullin killed in Drumnakilly. Dessie Grew near Loughall. The rest were mostly young Volunteers.

The "fact" is this, from your own beloved wikipedia page on the East Tyrone IRA. (which you seem to rely on entirely, just that you don't accept parts that clearly contradict you)

In the aftermath of the Loughgall ambush

The SAS ambush had no noticeable long-term effect on the level of IRA activity in East Tyrone.

And this is the same story spelled out in A Secret History of the IRA by Ed Maloney.

Now I've tried to add to this discussion. All you seem capable of doing in repeating absurdities, misusing facts and repeating mantras.

cruasder777

In the aftermath of the Loughgall ambush

The SAS ambush had no noticeable long-term effect on the level of IRA activity in East Tyrone.

............What am I making up ?
............2 yrs previously they murdered 7, in the next 2 years 11, that was after they poured resources into the area for propagana.

By the late 80s their campaign in East Tyrone had ground to a halt, the intelligence war meant many of their senior operatives were also locked up. They were riddled with informers.

Spin it how you like, their losses made their campaign unsustainable, yr on yr their levels of operations went down from the mid 70s onwards. By the early 90s the PIRA were murdering less the 20 per yr from 300 in the early 70s.

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

28 of their most experienced members got wiped out in 5 years, fact.

In comparison South Armagh brigade lost 9 members in 30 years.

Just wondering does anyone know, in the SAS/RUC/Brits/UDR etc 'war against the terrorists' -

(A) How many loyalists in the North Armagh/East Tyrone were killed ??

(B) How many Catholics were mown down by British directed UVF gangs in the North Armagh/East Tyrone area ??

(C) How many SAS were killed but been they put down quietly as "undercover soldiers" or hidden as British soldiers accidentally killed in car accidents on the 'mainland' or in Germany ??

cruasder777

No British soldiers deaths in NI were covered up as car crashes in Germany, its conspiracy theory rubbish. Put out by the PIRA to claim they were killing more soldiers then they actually were.

Such a senario would have envolved dozens of people from doctors and pathologists covering up the cause death to Police and military, even the coroner etc.

The press would have certainly got hold of it by now, never mind families wanting answers, its absolute rubbish.

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

No British soldiers deaths in NI were covered up as car crashes in Germany, its conspiracy theory rubbish. Put out by the PIRA to claim they were killing more soldiers then they actually were.

Well coming from someone who quotes a wiki link on a controversial issue on the north and when asked to back it up he fails to - that's something. Anyway regarding the coverup of deaths of 'undercover' soldiers or in truth SAS men, I remember reading about it by IRA authority Tim Pat Coogan in his book The IRA.

Such a senario would have envolved dozens of people from doctors and pathologists covering up the cause death to Police and military, even the coroner etc.

The press would have certainly got hold of it by now, never mind families wanting answers, its absolute rubbish.

As for trying to pretend that the authorites, police, pathologists, press etc in the north wouldn't participate in a cover up........ARE YOU FOR REAL !!!! Bloody Sunday, Stalker Affair, collusion etc :rolleyes:

cruasder777

So you seriously belive soldiers killed in NI were put on flights to Germany, then road accidents were staged so it could be claimed they died that way ?

What about the bullet holes in the bodies ? The German Police would have had to have been in on it well, as well as German paramedics, pathologists, etc.

You are obviously barking mad.

Yet this is a common belief in republican circles.

Dave Joyce

Here we go, c'mon Dave tell me how how 12 year old Tim Parry deserved to have his body torn apart for IRELAND, tell me again how three year old Jonathon Ball deserved to die because of his culpability for 800 years of British oppression, the bastard.

Are you trying to HONESTLY say that kids were deliberately targeted??

As usual, quoting victims from just the one side, as I said earlier but I still don't see you condemning the British army or is it alright for the British to kill innocent Irish civilians over a period of 800 years not just the last 90 odd years? I mean they are the TRAINED army with ROE etc whereas if we're to believe inconsistent idiots like you, the IRA were just a bunch of thugs. What kind of a fool thinks that ANYONE, let alone me, is fine with children been killed:rolleyes:

You don't have to be 'pro brit' to see that. One of my best friends is IRA, he did hard time for his actions. Not only that he is unreformed and and doesn't buy into the peace process to the point where the Branch hassle him. But quite frankly he's a better man than you. On the other hand I have a friend, a Brit, who won't tell me all he ever did. When the two get together it's very interesting. Mutual respect.

What a load of cack!!!

I don't understand why republicans complain about it. If it was a war then they were legitimate targets.

This typifies the total contradictions of people with a pro Brit agenda. If a republican says ANYONE is a legitimate target, they lose the plot but then in the next breath, you get a quote like above. Many republicans realise that Volunteers lost their lives during actions but as NO ONE HAS ADDRESSED so far, it was two things that bother us and I'll say it again. If the intelligence was so good, WHY weren't they arrested and interrogated?? Secondly and more importantly, WHY were they summarily executed while lying on the ground injured????????????

kabakuyu

found this on a military forum, "The Loughgall contact was led by a Staff Sgt from the Ulster Troop SAS. His Troop of 22 soldiers was bolstered by another 15 from G Troop who flew over from the UK, and flew back there straight after the contact".
Another poster stated that 1 SAS soldier secreted inside the police station died in hospital on the mainland as a result of injuries he received during the blast, is this accurate?

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

So you seriously belive soldiers killed in NI were put on flights to Germany, then road accidents were staged so it could be claimed they died that way ?

What about the bullet holes in the bodies ? The German Police would have had to have been in on it well, as well as German paramedics, pathologists, etc.

You are obviously barking mad.

Yet this is a common belief in republican circles.

Where did I state or even infer that Brits killed in the north bodies were flown to Germany and road crashes etc staged . Simply, the Brit propaganda dept. put out the story of 'undercover' soldier Joe Bloggs been killed in a car accident in Germany or England/wherever and of course the totally compliant media faithfully printed it. When probably the real truth was he was doing a Capt Nairac and got whacked by the Provos. Simples.

BTW, you or the other SAS fan boys haven't addressed the questions of in the SAS/RUC/Brits/UDR etc 'war against the terrorists' -

(A) How many loyalists in the North Armagh/East Tyrone were killed ??

(B) How many Catholics were mown down by British directed UVF gangs in the North Armagh/East Tyrone area ??

cruasder777

HellsAngel wrote: »

Where did I state or even infer that Brits killed in the north bodies were flown to Germany and road crashes etc staged . Simply, the Brit propaganda dept. put out the story of 'undercover' soldier Joe Bloggs been killed in a car accident in Germany or England/wherever and of course the totally compliant media faithfully printed it. When probably the real truth was he was doing a Capt Nairac and got whacked by the Provos. Simples.

BTW, you or the other SAS fan boys haven't addressed the questions of in the SAS/RUC/Brits/UDR etc 'war against the terrorists' -

(A) How many loyalists in the North Armagh/East Tyrone were killed ??

(B) How many Catholics were mown down by British directed UVF gangs in the North Armagh/East Tyrone area ??

Do you not think the guys family might have noticed if the Ministry of Defence put out soldier A had been killed in a car crash in Germany, when infact he had been killed in NI ?

Do you not think hes collegues might have noticed ? Do you not think the media might have noticed. :rolleyes:

Do you not think hes death cert would have directly contradicted the claim?

You are seriously claiming the media were part of this conspiracy ?

The same media which has exposed MOD mistakes and shortcomings in Iraq, Afghanistan as well as in NI.

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

Do you not think the guys family might have noticed if the Ministry of Defence put out soldier A had been killed in a car crash in Germany, when infact he had been killed in NI ?

Do you not think hes collegues might have noticed ? Do you not think the media might have noticed. :rolleyes:

Do you not think hes death cert would have directly contradicted the claim?

You are seriously claiming the media were part of this conspiracy ?

The same media which has exposed MOD mistakes and shortcomings in Iraq, Afghanistan as well as in NI.

As for trying to pretend that the authorites, police, pathologists, press etc in the north wouldn't participate in a cover up........ARE YOU FOR REAL !!!! Bloody Sunday, Stalker Affair, collusion etc

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

found this on a military forum, "The Loughgall contact was led by a Staff Sgt from the Ulster Troop SAS. His Troop of 22 soldiers was bolstered by another 15 from G Troop who flew over from the UK, and flew back there straight after the contact".
Another poster stated that 1 SAS soldier secreted inside the police station died in hospital on the mainland as a result of injuries he received during the blast, is this accurate?

If someone said it on the INTERNET it must be true....

OS119

HellsAngel wrote: »

...As for trying to pretend that the authorites, police, pathologists, press etc in the north wouldn't participate in a cover up........ARE YOU FOR REAL !!!! Bloody Sunday, Stalker Affair, collusion etc :rolleyes:

think logically.

in order to suceed in any such operation it wouldn't just be the UK looking to decieve, it would be the German/whatever state looking to decieve.

somehow the BG would have to get a body from rural Tyrone to Hamburg, arrange a 'traffic accident', get into a German civilian hospital in the normal chaos of a A+E, and not have the A+E consultant notice that the body had been dead for 8hrs (minimum) and was riddled with bullet holes.

you then have to get the family of the soldier concerned to not be in the least puzzled as to why their son/husband/brother was in Germany when they had a letter from him a week ago telling them how **** the weather was in Dungannon.

you then need to ask yourself what is the thing that links all the scandals you've mentioned - and the answer is that the cover-up has been laughably inept, and that, by and large, the scandals have been exposed by people within the British military/police establishment.

yet not in this case...

do you actually believe that there can be a shooting in NI with all the normal activity that accompanies such an event - helicopters, QRF, hospitals, then get the body to Aldergrove, get an RAF Hercules crew out of bed in Lyneham, have it fly to Aldergrove, pick up the body, fly it to Germany, unload the body, find a serious car crash, pretend the three bullet wounds in the chest are the result of not wearing a seatbelt when you get it to a German hospital, then have a civilian inquest and involve the German traffic police, all without one single person blabbing about this?

really?

does that not make you think it more likely that perhaps this is a story that tells republicans what they want to hear and re-inforces their prejudices?

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

If someone said it on the INTERNET it must be true....

Your response to me is juvenille and reallly does not add to the thread;).Do you have any other sources that could enlighten us or do you know anything concerning Loughgall.One SAS man does appear to have been injured and when it comes to the SAS the military authorities are quite secretive so it is quite possible he may have died at a later date.BTW the sources I qouted are current and ex BA personnel.
Regards,
KK