Shoot to Kill

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

Your response to me is juvenille and reallly does not add to the thread;).Do you have any other sources that could enlighten us or do you know anything concerning Loughgall.One SAS man does appear to have been injured and when it comes to the SAS the military authorities are quite secretive so it is quite possible he may have died at a later date.BTW the sources I qouted are current and ex BA personnel.
Regards,
KK

You didn't "qoute" them, you mentioned seeing them in a website somewhere.Try harder. Give us a link at least. Would be better if you could verify that the person posting was ACTUALLY who they said they were.
For Example, I am HRH Prince William. My Mother, Princess Diana, was killed by my Grandfather, according to someone on the internet, who I have 1000% faith in, even though I never met them in my life. However they say their second cousin twice removed said his aunts greenkeepers nephew took a photo of an MI5 agent cutting the brakes on the limo while Grandpapa held the torch.....

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

You didn't "qoute" them, you mentioned seeing them in a website somewhere.Try harder. Give us a link at least. Would be better if you could verify that the person posting was ACTUALLY who they said they were.
For Example, I am HRH Prince William. My Mother, Princess Diana, was killed by my Grandfather, according to someone on the internet, who I have 1000% faith in, even though I never met them in my life. However they say their second cousin twice removed said his aunts greenkeepers nephew took a photo of an MI5 agent cutting the brakes on the limo while Grandpapa held the torch.....

Oh,but I did qoute them,but you can't seem to understand that;).You insist on contributing nothing to the thread,so maybe I should take it that you don't really know alot about Loughgall, instead of trying harder I am going to make it simpler just for you:)This is the question I asked, it has been speculated on another forum that the SAS man who was injured in the Loughgall ambush may have later died of his injuries in Britain(I do not know how accurate this speculation is ) but can anybody shed any light on this, please do not comment if like some posters you can't really contribute something pertinent to my query.
Best regards,
KK

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

Oh,but I did qoute them,but you can't seem to understand that;).You insist on contributing nothing to the thread,so maybe I should take it that you don't really know alot about Loughgall, instead of trying harder I am going to make it simpler just for you:)This is the question I asked, it has been speculated on another forum that the SAS man who was injured in the Loughgall ambush may have later died of his injuries in Britain(I do not know how accurate this speculation is ) but can anybody shed any light on this, please do not comment if like some posters you can't really contribute something pertinent to my query.
Best regards,
KK

Does your mummy know you are up this late?

Seeing as you can't spell Quote, I am surprised you understand what the word means.
It has been speculated on a website you claim to have seen but have not provided a link to=it never happened, you dreamt it.

Loughgall=(not enough dead provo terrorists+too many civilian deaths)/ra realising they can't play big boys rules any more and resort to killing children and pregnant women in ill timed bombing "spectaculars"

OS119

kabakuyu wrote: »

...it has been speculated on another forum that the SAS man who was injured in the Loughgall ambush may have later died of his injuries in Britain(I do not know how accurate this speculation is ) but can anybody shed any light on this, please do not comment if like some posters you can't really contribute something pertinent to my query....

nothing i have heard or read about the operation suggests that any member of the security forces suffered any serious injury, and certainly nothing that they died from at a later date.

i have heard that the senior 22SAS officer in NI, along with an RUC officer, were in the Police Station in order to provide the 'copper-bottomed' justification for opening fire under the ROE then in force. theoretically, if the police station had been empty there could have been an argument that as the PIRA operation contained no risk to life (just an empty building), it would not have been approriate to open fire. with two members of the security forces in the building however, the operation fell so far within the rules of the 'yellow card' that there wouldn't be any controversy over whether any of the soldiers involved had the right/responsibility to open fire.

the operation was not perfect - there have consitstantly been rumours that a second ASU, supposed to have joined the first, either got spooked and aborted, or was just running late, and avoided the fate of Lynagh's ASU. in addition - and much worse - a civilian was killed when 22SAS opened fire on his vehicle after it drove near the police stn during/slightly after the ambush, and sometime after the operation, a civilian was abducted by PIRA members and accused of being an informer - that person was rescued by the security forces from the boot of a car, and i'm assuming that it wasn't chance that brought them to that particular car...

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

Does your mummy know you are up this late?

Seeing as you can't spell Quote, I am surprised you understand what the word means.
It has been speculated on a website you claim to have seen but have not provided a link to=it never happened, you dreamt it.

Loughgall=(not enough dead provo terrorists+too many civilian deaths)/ra realising they can't play big boys rules any more and resort to killing children and pregnant women in ill timed bombing "spectaculars"

Wow:D ,thanks for your input,but once again it is totally irrelevant to the thread, you do seem to have difficulty in comprehending the question I posed;), but no matter,I see someone else has answered.BTW thanks for pointing out my typo.Maybe you should consider contributing to this thread in a constructive way rather than posting the same old trite remarks you direct at me;).
Bright Blessings,
KK.

Exile 1798

goldie fish wrote: »

Does your mummy know you are up this late?

Seeing as you can't spell Quote, I am surprised you understand what the word means.
It has been speculated on a website you claim to have seen but have not provided a link to=it never happened, you dreamt it.

Loughgall=(not enough dead provo terrorists+too many civilian deaths)/ra realising they can't play big boys rules any more and resort to killing children and pregnant women in ill timed bombing "spectaculars"

Nice bit of invective. If we subtracted your numerous posts and those missives of a similar nature from this thread it would perhaps have about 40 posts, rather then 100. As this is supposed to be the military forum, and keeping in mind the original - and very interesting question posed by the person who started the thread - let's perhaps stick to topic, rather then posting, and re-posting (and re-posting again) propaganda laced with invective.

The assault on Derryard lead by East Tyrone two years after Loughall where according to some posters they had been "wiped out", or taught they couldn't "play big boys rules". (:rolleyes: at "big boys rules")

The Derryard Action, County Fermanagh, 13th December 1989

In the dark winter evening the Permanent Vehicle Check Point (PVCP) North of Rosslea, close to the border with Monaghan, was manned by 8 soldiers commanded by Corporal Robert Duncan. In response to a threat to the border locations an additional 4-man team commanded by Corporal Ian Harvey was on external patrol. From the direction of the border a specially armour-plated lorry, with about twelve terrorists intent on destroying the base stopped, and as Private Houston checked the back of it, automatic gunfire opened up from Armalite and AK47 rifles. Grenades were thrown into the base, and a flame-thrower was aimed at the command sangar. Two RPG7 Rockets were fired at the observation sangar. Heavy suppressive fire continued as the lorry reversed and smashed its way into the compound. Two soldiers were killed.

The truck drove out of the devastated PVCP, and a red transit van drove in, laden with explosives. Fortunately only the booster charge exploded. As the patrol came up rapidly, firing at the terrorists, the truck drove off at speed, its two machine-guns mounted on the rear firing, its driver intent on escape. It was found abandoned at the border with a 210 kg bomb on board. The scale and type of this attack had never been seen before in Northern Ireland.

.......

I was phoned soon after the action. I flew to Belfast and was driven to the location. In order to paint the action it was important to see the PVCP in its scarred condition, before it was repaired. The lonely, isolated building put me in mind of the beleaguered little forts which dotted this part of Ireland in the time of Queen Elizabeth I.

http://www.davidrowlands.co.uk/gallery/gal_detail.asp?varPaintCode=693

The assault would involve the use of two 12.7mm DShK machine guns, 11 AK-47s, different kinds of grenades, and a flamethrower. The bulk of the flying column would be driven to the checkpoint on a makeshift armoured truck. To assure widespread destruction, the column decided to detonate a van bomb after the initial surprise assault. The chosen target, a vehicle checkpoint at Derryard, near Rosslea, was manned by eight soldiers of the 1st Battalion of the King's Own Scottish Borderers regiment and a member of the RUC.

After launching a number of grenades (either RPGs or home made devices), the IRA members managed to break into the compound using the armour-plated lorry, supported by automatic fire and the flamethrower’s stream of fire, which was aimed at the main sangar. The orange ball of flames was witnessed by a farmer some distance away amid gunfire 'raking the fields'. In the process the IRA men killed two soldiers, Pte James Houston and L/Cpl Michael Patterson. Cpl Law was severely wounded by shrapnel and later airlifted for treatment. Another soldier suffered minor injures. The defenders were forced to seek shelter in sangars, from where they fired into their own base. The IRA unit left inside the complex a van loaded with 400-lb (182 kg) of Semtex, which failed to explode. The attack was finally repulsed by a Borderers section from the checkpoint that was patrolling nearby, with the support of a Wessex helicopter. The patrol fired more than 100 rounds.The IRA column, at risk of being surrounded, then fled in the truck, possibly toward the border.

......

A senior British military officer, when quizzed about the IRA attack said:

They are murdering bastards, but they are not cowards. This team actually pressed home a ground attack right into the heart of the compound. That takes guts when there are people firing back.

KOSB officers and security sources realised that the IRA unit involved was not locally recruited, putting the blame instead on IRA members from Clogher, County Tyrone and South Monaghan, in the Republic. The same sources said that the plan of the attack was executed in true backside-or-bust Para style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint

The Derryard permanent checkpoint was abandoned 18 months later.

We could get into other large assaults/counter ambushes carried out by other Brigades in other areas at this time - but that would be getting away from the topic and the question at hand.

Manic Moran

goldie fish wrote: »

Does your mummy know you are up this late?

Seeing as you can't spell Quote, I am surprised you understand what the word means.

Let's have a little less patronising please, Goldie.

NTM

cruasder777

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Nice bit of invective. If we subtracted your numerous posts and those missives of a similar nature from this thread it would perhaps have about 40 posts, rather then 100. As this is supposed to be the military forum, and keeping in mind the original - and very interesting question posed by the person who started the thread - let's perhaps stick to topic, rather then posting, and re-posting (and re-posting again) propaganda laced with invective.

The assault on Derryard lead by East Tyrone two years after Loughall where according to some posters they had been "wiped out", or taught they couldn't "play big boys rules". (:rolleyes: at "big boys rules")

http://www.davidrowlands.co.uk/gallery/gal_detail.asp?varPaintCode=693

The Derryard permanent checkpoint was abandoned 18 months later.

We could get into other large assaults/counter ambushes carried out by other Brigades in other areas at this time - but that would be getting away from the topic and the question at hand.

The Derryard checkpoint attack was carried out by various PIRA units from throughout NI.


Moloney maintains that the planning was in the charge of Thomas Murphy, alleged leader of the South Armagh Brigade, and was to be conducted by East Tyrone Brigade member Michael "Pete" Ryan. Journalist Ian Bruce, instead, claims that an Irishman who served on the Parachute Regiment was the leader of the IRA unit, citing intelligence sources.[3] The column was made up of volunteers from throughout Northern Ireland.[2]

Exile 1798

KOSB officers and security sources realised that the IRA unit involved was not locally recruited, putting the blame instead on IRA members from Clogher, County Tyrone and South Monaghan, in the Republic.

ie, East Tyrone IRA. Lead by Pete Ryan, the then OC of East Tyrone IRA.

As I said all along, it was lead by East Tyrone IRA. That there were IRA Volunteers from other brigades involved isn't in question.

HellsAngel

OS119 wrote: »

think logically.

in order to suceed in any such operation it wouldn't just be the UK looking to decieve, it would be the German/whatever state looking to decieve.

somehow the BG would have to get a body from rural Tyrone to Hamburg, arrange a 'traffic accident', get into a German civilian hospital in the normal chaos of a A+E, and not have the A+E consultant notice that the body had been dead for 8hrs (minimum) and was riddled with bullet holes.

you then have to get the family of the soldier concerned to not be in the least puzzled as to why their son/husband/brother was in Germany when they had a letter from him a week ago telling them how **** the weather was in Dungannon.

you then need to ask yourself what is the thing that links all the scandals you've mentioned - and the answer is that the cover-up has been laughably inept, and that, by and large, the scandals have been exposed by people within the British military/police establishment.

yet not in this case...

do you actually believe that there can be a shooting in NI with all the normal activity that accompanies such an event - helicopters, QRF, hospitals, then get the body to Aldergrove, get an RAF Hercules crew out of bed in Lyneham, have it fly to Aldergrove, pick up the body, fly it to Germany, unload the body, find a serious car crash, pretend the three bullet wounds in the chest are the result of not wearing a seatbelt when you get it to a German hospital, then have a civilian inquest and involve the German traffic police, all without one single person blabbing about this?

really?

does that not make you think it more likely that perhaps this is a story that tells republicans what they want to hear and re-inforces their prejudices?

:rolleyes: ' Sigh '..........It's a pity you haven't been following the discussion and read my post #96 just up the page. But anyway -

" Where did I state or even infer that Brits killed in the north bodies were flown to Germany and road crashes etc staged . Simply, the Brit propaganda dept. put out the story of 'undercover' soldier Joe Bloggs been killed in a car accident in Germany or England/wherever and of course the totally compliant media faithfully printed it. When probably the real truth was he was doing a Capt Nairac and got whacked by the Provos. Simples. "

IRA authority Tim Pat Coogan writes of such coverups in his book The IRA.

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

The Derryard checkpoint attack was carried out by various PIRA units from throughout NI.

Moloney maintains that the planning was in the charge of Thomas Murphy, alleged leader of the South Armagh Brigade, and was to be conducted by East Tyrone Brigade member Michael "Pete" Ryan. Journalist Ian Bruce, instead, claims that an Irishman who served on the Parachute Regiment was the leader of the IRA unit, citing intelligence sources.[3] The column was made up of volunteers from throughout Northern Ireland.[2]

" Journalist Ian Bruce, instead, claims that an Irishman who served on the Parachute Regiment was the leader of the IRA unit, citing intelligence sources. The column was made up of volunteers from throughout Northern Ireland. "

OS119

HellsAngel wrote: »

...When probably the real truth was he was doing a Capt Nairac and got whacked by the Provos. Simples. "

i have been following it - what passes for discussion anyway...

in the situation you claim, what part would be wildly different to my counter argument? are you claiming that there's a whole load of dead brits buried in peat bogs that their families haven't heard from in 30 years?

i genuinely don't understand - given the roadblocks that exist in covering up a death for 30 years - how you can really believe that the BA lost more people than they claim they did.

tell me how - or get TPC to tell me how - the BA has covered up X number of deaths for 30 years without any of their friends, family and colleagues mentioning that big Dave never came back from that NI tour, and how none of the people involved in orchestrating that cover-up talked to the press - i'm all ears...

cruasder777

Exile 1798 wrote: »

ie, East Tyrone IRA. Lead by Pete Ryan, the then OC of East Tyrone IRA.

As I said all along, it was lead by East Tyrone IRA. That there were IRA Volunteers from other brigades involved isn't in question.

Keep digging.

Moloney maintains that the planning was in the charge of Thomas Murphy,

Of South Armagh PIRA


The column was made up of volunteers from throughout Northern Ireland.[2]

HellsAngel

OS119 wrote: »

i have been following it - what passes for discussion anyway...

in the situation you claim, what part would be wildly different to my counter argument? are you claiming that there's a whole load of dead brits buried in peat bogs that their families haven't heard from in 30 years?

Ok I'll put it in bold and hopefully it might sink in otherwise I cann't explain it in simpler language but if you don't or won't understand compliant media than it will be another waste of time I'm afraid. " Where did I state or even infer that Brits killed in the north bodies were flown to Germany and road crashes etc staged or that there's a whole load of dead brits buried in peat bogs :rolleyes: Simply, the Brit propaganda dept. put out the story of 'undercover' soldier Joe Bloggs been killed in a car accident in Germany or England/wherever and of course the totally compliant media faithfully printed it. When probably the real truth was he was doing a Capt Nairac and got whacked by the Provos. "

Indeed Nairac is a fine example of a covder up, he was an SAS superhero saving kiddies in burning houses and helping old ladies across the road for almost 20 years but thanks to the presistence of the victims familys in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings the real truth was exposed about this British murdering lowlife - with the SAS now denying he ever was a member !!!!

i genuinely don't understand - given the roadblocks that exist in covering up a death for 30 years - how you can really believe that the BA lost more people than they claim they did.

tell me how - or get TPC to tell me how - the BA has covered up X number of deaths for 30 years without any of their friends, family and colleagues mentioning that big Dave never came back from that NI tour, and how none of the people involved in orchestrating that cover-up talked to the press - i'm all ears...

I didn't state ' Big Dave' never came back form NI :rolleyes:, what I plainly stated was that ", the Brit propaganda dept. put out the story of 'undercover' soldier Joe Bloggs been killed in a car accident in Germany or England/wherever ".

"and how none of the people involved in orchestrating that cover-up talked to the press - i'm all ears..." ARE YOU FOR REAL !!!! As for trying to pretend that the authorites, police, pathologists, press etc in the north wouldn't participate in a cover up........ Bloody Sunday, Stalker Affair, collusion etc :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

cruasder777

And you dont think it odd that families whos loved ones were serving in NI and suddenly had killed in a car crash in Germany on their death cert would not want answers, never mind collegues, wondering how the guy they were serving with that day was suddenly in a car crash in Germany etc ? :rolleyes:

Such a conspiracy would have involved dozens of people, funny how no journalist has never got wind of it.

Maybe because its such an idiotic conspiracy theory its actually laughable.

And Nairac was never an SAS member, trained by the SAS yes, but then so are/were many units from the Met Police and RUC to various military units, but never badged.



http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/nairac-an-undercover-hero-or-a-maverick-fool-13903699.html#ixzz1Wz19yRQJ

A former UDR officer who worked with Nairac tells Stephen Gordon of his disturbing memories of the SAS-trained soldier and how his cavalier ways alarmed him... Ex-UDR officer 'Dan' will never forget his first meeting with Grenadier Guardsman Robert Nairac.

It was during that meeting in 1975 that Nairac asked the Co Armagh-based soldier if he knew any UDR men who wanted to "take on the IRA at their own game".

Their first journey into south Armagh followed an order by his operations officer to take a new 'MILO' (Military Intelligence Liaison Officer) on a 'familiarisation' tour of the Battalion area.

"I first saw Bob Nairac when he arrived at my home near Portadown, parked his car in the drive, walked up to the front door and introduced himself as Captain Charlie McDonald. He said he was based at Castledillon.

"He wanted me to take him around the area, point out known 'players', that sort of thing. But he insisted on using his car, not mine!"

Nairac was driving what the military referred to as a 'Q' car - or covert vehicle - that had a military radio fitted behind the ordinary radio and a microphone beneath the seat so the operator did not have to use a handset.

Dan said that from the outset it was obvious Nairac was well trained in counter-surveillance techniques.

"He knew the ropes. He was clearly no ordinary 'MILO'. He was much sharper than any others I had met. He asked very different questions. I soon realised this guy was not the 'rookie' he wanted me to think he was.

Nairac was particularly interested in loyalist paramilitaries like Robin 'The Jackal' Jackson from Lurgan.

Two weeks after their initial meeting Nairac contacted Dan and asked him and a second UDR NCO to meet at Castledillon military base.

"Nairac was based in a separate unit there. It had its own quarters, separate signals equipment, weapons, the lot. It even had its own guards inside the compound - I knew then this was some kind of specialist covert unit.

"He took us into a bar at the base. I remember the bar front had been painted like a deck of cards."

Later that night Nairac took Dan and his UDR colleague out in his car and headed towards the Armagh/Monaghan border.

"He again asked if we knew of any UDR soldiers who would be interested in 'helping him out," said Dan.

"He was particularly interested in UDR men living in or close to south Armagh. He said they could play a vital role in targeting IRA suspects."

Dan said they had been driving for some time along narrow border roads when he spotted a road sign.

"The bloody thing was in Irish. We were inside the Republic and each of us carrying military weapons."

Nairac was unfazed.

"He knew every inch of those roads. Don't forget, most of them had been blocked off by the Army at that time, but he knew exactly where he was."

Eventually Nairac drove into Monaghan and stopped outside a house on the Dublin Road.

"He got out of the car, told us to wait and went inside. We were in a cold sweat. Two UDR soldiers in Monaghan were dead meat at that time."

Nairac was in the house for about 10 minutes before he returned to the car.

"He got back in and said: 'That's a useful contact and I have to keep him sweet'. He then drove us back through the Irish Customs to Castledillon'.

Later that night Dan and his colleague agreed they wanted nothing more to do with the maverick Nairac.

"I told my ops officer Nairac was a loony and I wanted nothing more to do with him. I only saw him again a couple of times after that - once at a joint Army/RUC meeting in Mahon Camp, Portadown, the second time when he drove through a UDR checkpoint near Silverbridge."



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/nairac-an-undercover-hero-or-a-maverick-fool-13903699.html#ixzz1Wz19yRQJ

OS119

HellsAngel wrote: »

:rolleyes:

sorry, i still don't know what you actually mean.

are you saying that people killed in NI were claimed to have been killed in Germany?

or are you saying that there were people killed in NI - or elsewhere - that were never acknowldged as being dead?

getz

i still find it hard to understand why people living in the south of the ireland,still support a group of terrorists who have murdered more catholics/republicans than the BA /police/and loyalist terror groups put together,

Exile 1798

cruasder777 wrote: »

Keep digging.

Moloney maintains that the planning was in the charge of Thomas Murphy,

Of South Armagh PIRA


The column was made up of volunteers from throughout Northern Ireland.[2]

Crusader - absolutely pathetic.

Moloney maintains that the planning was in the charge of Thomas Murphy, alleged leader of the South Armagh Brigade, and was to be conducted by East Tyrone Brigade member Michael "Pete" Ryan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint

This is the second time you have cherry picked information from one source, yet carefully omitted bits which contradict your claims http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74175433&postcount=83

Even when it's pointed out to you that your own source contradicts your claim - you simply repeat the erroneous claim again and again.

Keeping digging indeed - what you're doing is not only dishonest, it's tantamount to lying.

PS: It's normal and proper when you quote from from a website to provide the link. I can understand why you wouldn't want do this though, as you don't want anyone reading anything but the lines you carefully cherry picked.

Exile 1798

getz wrote: »

i still find it hard to understand why people living in the south of the ireland,still support a group of terrorists who have murdered more catholics/republicans than the BA /police/and loyalist terror groups put together,

BA/RUC/Loyalists combined killed 1030 Catholics during the Troubles. The IRA killed 343.

It's often the case that one finds things which one knows nothing about hard to understand.

cruasder777

Exile 1798 wrote: »

BA/RUC/Loyalists combined killed 1030 Catholics during the Troubles. The IRA killed 343.

It's often the case that one finds things which one knows nothing about hard to understand.

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html

Stop trying to spin the truth the British army killed 9 % in total of those killed during the troubles. The PIRA 49 %.

The BA killed 258 Catholics (this would have included PIRA members, accidental deaths etc), the PIRA 338 Catholics.

(1)Organisation, (2)Total Killings, (3)Protestant, (4)Catholic, (5)not from NI


(1)IRA (2)1696 (49%)(3) 790 (4)338 (5)568

UVF 396 (11%) 89 265 42

British Army 299 (9%) 32 258 9

(unknown loyalist) 212 (6%) 50 212 7

UFF 149 (4%) 17 132 0

INLA 110 (3%) 55 33 22

UDA 102 (3%) 41 58 3
(unknown) 77 27 42 8

RUC 56 9 44 3

Official IRA 51 7 24 20

PAF (loyalist) 37 0 37 0

'Real' IRA 29 11 13 5

(others) 117 27 87 3

Exile 1798

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html

You have to create the tables yourself, they can't be linked to directly. Eat your heart out.

cruasder777

Exile 1798 wrote: »

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html

You have to create the tables yourself, they can't be linked to directly. Eat your heart out.

The PIRA killed more Catholics then the British army fact.


The BA killed 258 Catholics (this would have included PIRA members, accidental deaths etc), the PIRA 338 Catholics.

(1)Organisation, (2)Total Killings, (3)Protestant, (4)Catholic, (5)not from NI


(1)IRA (2)1696 (49%)(3) 790 (4)338 (5)568

UVF 396 (11%) 89 265 42

British Army 299 (9%) 32 258 9

(unknown loyalist) 212 (6%) 50 212 7

UFF 149 (4%) 17 132 0

INLA 110 (3%) 55 33 22

UDA 102 (3%) 41 58 3
(unknown) 77 27 42 8

RUC 56 9 44 3

Official IRA 51 7 24 20

PAF (loyalist) 37 0 37 0

'Real' IRA 29 11 13 5

(others) 117 27 87 3

Exile 1798

cruasder777 wrote: »

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html

Stop trying to spin the truth the British army killed 9 % in total of those killed during the troubles. The PIRA 49 %.

The BA killed 258 Catholics (this would have included PIRA members, accidental deaths etc), the PIRA 338

(1)Organisation, (2)Total Killings, (3)Protestant, (4)Catholic, (5)not from NI


IRA (2)1696 (49%)(3) 790 (4)338 (5)568

UVF 396 (11%) 89 265 42

British Army 299 (9%) 32 258 9

(unknown loyalist) 212 (6%) 50 212 7

UFF 149 (4%) 17 132 0

INLA 110 (3%) 55 33 22

UDA 102 (3%) 41 58 3
(unknown) 77 27 42 8

RUC 56 9 44 3

Official IRA 51 7 24 20

PAF (loyalist) 37 0 37 0

'Real' IRA 29 11 13 5

(others) 117 27 87 3

cruasder777 wrote: »

The PIRA killed more Catholics then the British army fact.

You really have trouble sticking to the point at hand don't you. This is the claim I responded to:

getz wrote: »

i still find it hard to understand why people living in the south of the ireland,still support a group of terrorists who have murdered more catholics/republicans than the BA /police/and loyalist terror groups put together,

Very specific, nothing to do with total causalities, or percentages there off.

getz

Exile 1798 wrote: »

You really have trouble sticking to the point at hand don't you. This is the claim I responded to:



Very specific, nothing to do with total causalities, or percentages there off.

http://topdocumentryfilms.com/provos

Exile 1798

getz wrote: »

http://topdocumentryfilms.com/provos

Sorry this link is no longer available

Would it really matter if it was available, getz?

CAIN - which is maintained by the University of Ulster, is the most comprehensive & reliable database of Troubles casualties. It states that the BA/RUC/Loyalists combined killed 1030 Catholics during the Troubles and that the IRA killed 343.

So your claim is not only wrong but spectacularly so. Being so remarkably incorrect it's a rather odd claim, which I've only ever seen made on occasion by certain Loyalists. I wouldn't rely on such people for "information" on the Troubles, the IRA or life in general if I were you.

kabakuyu

Manic Moran wrote: »

Let's have a little less patronising please, Goldie.

NTM

To be honest MM I did not find him patronising, I just found him to be totally devoid of the knowledge to answer my query.His attempt at condescension was quite immature and lacked impact;).

Best Regards,
KK

HellsAngel

cruasder777 wrote: »

And you dont think it odd that families whos loved ones were serving in NI and suddenly had killed in a car crash in Germany on their death cert would not want answers, never mind collegues, wondering how the guy they were serving with that day was suddenly in a car crash in Germany etc ? :rolleyes:

Such a conspiracy would have involved dozens of people, funny how no journalist has never got wind of it.

Maybe because its such an idiotic conspiracy theory its actually laughable.

And Nairac was never an SAS member, trained by the SAS yes, but then so are/were many units from the Met Police and RUC to various military units, but never badged.



http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/nairac-an-undercover-hero-or-a-maverick-fool-13903699.html#ixzz1Wz19yRQJ

A former UDR officer who worked with Nairac tells Stephen Gordon of his disturbing memories of the SAS-trained soldier and how his cavalier ways alarmed him... Ex-UDR officer 'Dan' will never forget his first meeting with Grenadier Guardsman Robert Nairac.

It was during that meeting in 1975 that Nairac asked the Co Armagh-based soldier if he knew any UDR men who wanted to "take on the IRA at their own game".

Their first journey into south Armagh followed an order by his operations officer to take a new 'MILO' (Military Intelligence Liaison Officer) on a 'familiarisation' tour of the Battalion area.

"I first saw Bob Nairac when he arrived at my home near Portadown, parked his car in the drive, walked up to the front door and introduced himself as Captain Charlie McDonald. He said he was based at Castledillon.

"He wanted me to take him around the area, point out known 'players', that sort of thing. But he insisted on using his car, not mine!"

Nairac was driving what the military referred to as a 'Q' car - or covert vehicle - that had a military radio fitted behind the ordinary radio and a microphone beneath the seat so the operator did not have to use a handset.

Dan said that from the outset it was obvious Nairac was well trained in counter-surveillance techniques.

"He knew the ropes. He was clearly no ordinary 'MILO'. He was much sharper than any others I had met. He asked very different questions. I soon realised this guy was not the 'rookie' he wanted me to think he was.

Nairac was particularly interested in loyalist paramilitaries like Robin 'The Jackal' Jackson from Lurgan.

Two weeks after their initial meeting Nairac contacted Dan and asked him and a second UDR NCO to meet at Castledillon military base.

"Nairac was based in a separate unit there. It had its own quarters, separate signals equipment, weapons, the lot. It even had its own guards inside the compound - I knew then this was some kind of specialist covert unit.

"He took us into a bar at the base. I remember the bar front had been painted like a deck of cards."

Later that night Nairac took Dan and his UDR colleague out in his car and headed towards the Armagh/Monaghan border.

"He again asked if we knew of any UDR soldiers who would be interested in 'helping him out," said Dan.

"He was particularly interested in UDR men living in or close to south Armagh. He said they could play a vital role in targeting IRA suspects."

Dan said they had been driving for some time along narrow border roads when he spotted a road sign.

"The bloody thing was in Irish. We were inside the Republic and each of us carrying military weapons."

Nairac was unfazed.

"He knew every inch of those roads. Don't forget, most of them had been blocked off by the Army at that time, but he knew exactly where he was."

Eventually Nairac drove into Monaghan and stopped outside a house on the Dublin Road.

"He got out of the car, told us to wait and went inside. We were in a cold sweat. Two UDR soldiers in Monaghan were dead meat at that time."

Nairac was in the house for about 10 minutes before he returned to the car.

"He got back in and said: 'That's a useful contact and I have to keep him sweet'. He then drove us back through the Irish Customs to Castledillon'.

Later that night Dan and his colleague agreed they wanted nothing more to do with the maverick Nairac.

"I told my ops officer Nairac was a loony and I wanted nothing more to do with him. I only saw him again a couple of times after that - once at a joint Army/RUC meeting in Mahon Camp, Portadown, the second time when he drove through a UDR checkpoint near Silverbridge."



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/nairac-an-undercover-hero-or-a-maverick-fool-13903699.html#ixzz1Wz19yRQJ

I'm not going to try again

goldie fish

Manic Moran wrote: »

Let's have a little less patronising please, Goldie.

NTM

You call it patronising, but I will continue to mock and berate everyone who comes onto a military forum, which this is supposed to be, and attempts to compare acts of terrorism to military acts, while at the same time trying to pass off disinformation, lies and rumour as truth.

I served this state, I had a colleague killed by the PIRA. I have to read people like some posters here **** on the reputation of this man. The wording of the initial post is laughable. I didn 't realise we were expected to take this sort of revisionist propaganda seriously.

The OP is asking, in a twisted way. The SAS killed our murdering few, but it didn't stop the murder. Weren't the PIRA great? Is this acceptable? Then we have people like the post I replied to saying he saw somewhere something on a website that backs up his assertion that a member of the British Security forces who was wounded in Loughall was smuggled off to suffer from his wounds elsewhere??? Its as credible as those who think the WTC was brought down by controlled explosion.i.e nonsense, and insulting to all the innocent victims.

I have been trained, and brought up to believe the PIRA, and all their apologists are not deserving of any of my respect. Up to 15 years ago I would have been considered, a ligitimate target, as I was a member of the security forces. And I will continue to offer this disrespect to their apologists at every opportunity, lest they believe they have hoodwinked every citizen of the state.

There is no military value to any of their actions. They were brought to the table because the people of Ireland demonstrated that they had no time for their violence. This thread ligitimises their murder. This thread attempts to suggest that the actions of the PIRA forced the "crown" to the negotiating table. It sickens me.

It is revisionism, and has no place here in my opinion.

kabakuyu

GOLDIE FISH- Then we have people like the post I replied to saying he saw somewhere something on a website that backs up his assertion that a member of the British Security forces who was wounded in Loughall was smuggled off to suffer from his wounds elsewhere

Once again I have to call into question your understanding of what I actually posted and I post said quote below

Another poster stated that 1 SAS soldier secreted inside the police station died in hospital on the mainland as a result of injuries he received during the blast, is this accurate?

You should now be clearly able to see I did not make any assertion but merely posed a question as to the veracity of the post I had seen on another forum, the question mark should have indicated this to you;).
I did not use the word "smuggled", the suggestion of smuggled bodies of deceased service men was made by another poster, you really need to follow the thread more closely,but I do understand that your past experiences and temperament may have caused you to confuse,who posted what.Also, you are trying to imply that I have some type of republican agenda or sympathies(not true),when I was just asking a question, thankfully someone with more knowledge of Loughgall than either you or I did answer the question.Like you said yourself "I have been trained" try using your training before labelling and categorising people who post here.
BTW I am willing to PM to Maninc Moran the details of the relevant site where I saw the quotes.It is a private forum and and is open to members only,a link posted here would have been useless.
Regards
KK.

RMD

Realistically speaking, they would never have put a Special Forces trained soldier into the police station when they could put a common foot soldier in. Claims that a SAS trooper died due to the bombing and it was covered up aren't feasible as they wouldn't have risked a SF trooper over a normal soldier.

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

Once again I have to call into question your understanding of what I actually posted and I post said quote below


You should now be clearly able to see I did not make any assertion but merely posed a question as to the veracity of the post I had seen on another forum, the question mark should have indicated this to you;).
I did not use the word "smuggled", the suggestion of smuggled bodies of deceased service men was made by another poster, you really need to follow the thread more closely,but I do understand that your past experiences and temperament may have caused you to confuse,who posted what.Also, you are trying to imply that I have some type of republican agenda or sympathies(not true),when I was just asking a question, thankfully someone with more knowledge of Loughgall than either you or I did answer the question.Like you said yourself "I have been trained" try using your training before labelling and categorising people who post here.
BTW I am willing to PM to Maninc Moran the details of the relevant site where I saw the quotes.It is a private forum and and is open to members only,a link posted here would have been useless.
Regards
KK.

I am using my training. Please PM the link to Manic Moran so he can verify it. Otherwise, reference to this unknown person on an unknown website is pointless. Propogating the lies is akin to supporting the actions.

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

I am using my training. Please PM the link to Manic Moran so he can verify it. Otherwise, reference to this unknown person on an unknown website is pointless. Propogating the lies is akin to supporting the actions.

You just can't resist pontificating, can you:),but I am glad you are now using your training;) it should now be clear,even to you that I was questioning the allegations as opposed to propagating a lie(as you so quaintly put it).I suppose that an acknowledgement that you were previously mistaken in relation to my post was out of the question;).Anyhow,I shall send the relevant details to MM asap.

Manic Moran

kabakuyu wrote: »

goldie fish wrote: »

I am using my training. Please PM the link to Manic Moran so he can verify it. Otherwise, reference to this unknown person on an unknown website is pointless. Propogating the lies is akin to supporting the actions.

You just can't resist pontificating, can you:),but I am glad you are now using your training;) it should now be clear,even to you that I was questioning the allegations as opposed to propagating a lie(as you so quaintly put it).I suppose that an acknowledgement that you were previously mistaken in relation to my post was out of the question;).Anyhow,I shall send the relevant details to MM asap.

Do I have access to such a forum? Would uploading a screen shot of such a post not work as well?

NTM

kabakuyu

relevant passage

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

relevant passage

To be fair, it doesnt say much really does it? As far as confirming a source? It could be someones opinion or interpretation of events, albeit erroneously.
The fact that this is the first time I have heard it mentioned EVER, would lead me to suggest that this is a mistake, error or other on the part of the poster in the british medal forum, whoever they are.

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

To be fair, it doesnt say much really does it? As far as confirming a source? It could be someones opinion or interpretation of events, albeit erroneously.
The fact that this is the first time I have heard it mentioned EVER, would lead me to suggest that this is a mistake, error or other on the part of the poster in the british medal forum, whoever they are.

You want to be fair?:rolleyes:First you insinuated the forum and post did not exist,then you said that I dreamt the whole thing up and that I was part of some insidious campaign to disrespect dead service personell.
I posted exactly what was posted on the BMF and asked on this forum "is this accurate" I did not state that I had a reputable source for the information, I was just seeking others opinions on this forum with regards to the veracity of the specualtion, straight away,you choose to display a belligerent and caustic stance towards me and tried to question my honesty and integrity in making the post( I think I am now vindicated).You failed to comprehend what I was asking and decided to lecture me on the morality/immorality of the Irish Question. In doing so,you displayed the same characteristics and traits that you allegedly abhor in the rabid Republicans that post here.
Now,because you have been proven wrong you want to cast aspersions on the reputation of the BMF( we all know who uses that tactic, don't we;)) I don't need to defend the BMF, but I will state that serving and retired personell from the British Armed Forces,various Commonwealth nations,various Nato members ,US forces,Russia,and other non alligned countries contribute to the forum.There are even a few PDF and RDF personell on it as well.Some members are also well respected authors in their fields and in general military history.
To finish, you challenged me "to put up or shut up" I have now put up,but I respectfully suggest that is you Sir,who should "shut up".

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

You want to be fair?:rolleyes:First you insinuated the forum and post did not exist,then you said that I dreamt the whole thing up and that I was part of some insidious campaign to disrespect dead service personell.
I posted exactly what was posted on the BMF and asked on this forum "is this accurate" I did not state that I had a reputable source for the information, I was just seeking others opinions on this forum with regards to the veracity of the specualtion, straight away,you choose to display a belligerent and caustic stance towards me and tried to question my honesty and integrity in making the post( I think I am now vindicated).You failed to comprehend what I was asking and decided to lecture me on the morality/immorality of the Irish Question. In doing so,you displayed the same characteristics and traits that you allegedly abhor in the rabid Republicans that post here.
Now,because you have been proven wrong you want to cast aspersions on the reputation of the BMF( we all know who uses that tactic, don't we;)) I don't need to defend the BMF, but I will state that serving and retired personell from the British Armed Forces,various Commonwealth nations,various Nato members ,US forces,Russia,and other non alligned countries contribute to the forum.There are even a few PDF and RDF personell on it as well.Some members are also well respected authors in their fields and in general military history.
To finish, you challenged me "to put up or shut up" I have now put up,but I respectfully suggest that is you Sir,who should "shut up".

Bollox.
The link says as I said earlier some anonomous person on some website somewhere, which does exist..I'll give you that.. said something which is a pile of ****.
Do you want to be patted on the back for repeating that?

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

Bollox.
The link says as I said earlier some anonomous person on some website somewhere, which does exist..I'll give you that.. said something which is a pile of ****.
Do you want to be patted on the back for repeating that?

Look at your ALL your previous posts.You insinunated "I" was some fantasist trying to stir it up and I quote you
"It has been speculated on a website you claim to have seen but have not provided a link to=it never happened, you dreamt it".

Now you try to wiggle away from your own words,You're not doing yourself any favours there.You suggest you had training,did you miss the comprehension module.All my posts were focused on the question I asked, in response you tried to be condescending(and failed ).Now you try to justify the childlike position you took towards me by trying to attack me again.Get over it lad ,you lost this one,I did'nt dream it but I do wonder about you.;)

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

Look at your ALL your previous posts.You insinunated "I" was some fantasist trying to stir it up and I quote you
"It has been speculated on a website you claim to have seen but have not provided a link to=it never happened, you dreamt it".

Now you try to wiggle away from your own words,You're not doing yourself any favours there.You suggest you had training,did you miss the comprehension module.All my posts were focused on the question I asked, in response you tried to be condescending(and failed ).Now you try to justify the childlike position you took towards me by trying to attack me again.Get over it lad ,you lost this one,I did'nt dream it but I do wonder about you.;)

You can go round and round in circles all you like, but all that happens is I continue to derail this nonsense terrorist wankfest thread.
I love that you are engaging. It is nice to know there is someone out there more childlike than me :P

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

You can go round and round in circles all you like, but all that happens is I continue to derail this nonsense terrorist wankfest thread.
I love that you are engaging. It is nice to know there is someone out there more childlike than me :P

The only thing you have derailed here is your own reputation,you could not formulate a coherent defence of your post where you said I was making it up(you called me a liar,you are quite clearly wrong )A bigger man would have acknowledged his mistake, but maybe I expect too much of you:( People in entrenched positions are never conciliatory and losers can be very resentful.

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

The only thing you have derailed here is your own reputation,you could not formulate a coherent defence of your post where you said I was making it up(you called me a liar,you are quite clearly wrong )A bigger man would have acknowledged his mistake, but maybe I expect too much of you:( People in entrenched positions are never conciliatory and losers can be very resentful.

My life would be very very empty if I relied on the INTERNET for my reputation.

However in the real world, by reputation is safe.
love and kisses.

kabakuyu

goldie fish wrote: »

My life would be very very empty if I relied on the INTERNET for my reputation.

However in the real world, by reputation is safe.
love and kisses.

I dunno Goldie, I have a sneaking suspicion that the internet and various forums are your life.;)Anyways,thanks for the joust even if it did end badly for you.

goldie fish

kabakuyu wrote: »

I dunno Goldie, I have a sneaking suspicion that the internet and various forums are your life.;)Anyways,thanks for the joust even if it did end badly for you.

I didn't realise you stalk me on the interweb. Is it fulfilling?

savagecabbages

goldie fish wrote: »

all that happens is I continue to derail this nonsense terrorist wankfest thread.

At least you'll admit to derailing threads. The question is why...

iceage

So where were we..?

HellsAngel

goldie fish wrote: »

You call it patronising, but I will continue to mock and berate everyone who comes onto a military forum, which this is supposed to be, and attempts to compare acts of terrorism to military acts, while at the same time trying to pass off disinformation, lies and rumour as truth.

I served this state, I had a colleague killed by the PIRA. I have to read people like some posters here **** on the reputation of this man. The wording of the initial post is laughable. I didn 't realise we were expected to take this sort of revisionist propaganda seriously.

The OP is asking, in a twisted way. The SAS killed our murdering few, but it didn't stop the murder. Weren't the PIRA great? Is this acceptable? Then we have people like the post I replied to saying he saw somewhere something on a website that backs up his assertion that a member of the British Security forces who was wounded in Loughall was smuggled off to suffer from his wounds elsewhere??? Its as credible as those who think the WTC was brought down by controlled explosion.i.e nonsense, and insulting to all the innocent victims.

I have been trained, and brought up to believe the PIRA, and all their apologists are not deserving of any of my respect. Up to 15 years ago I would have been considered, a ligitimate target, as I was a member of the security forces. And I will continue to offer this disrespect to their apologists at every opportunity, lest they believe they have hoodwinked every citizen of the state.

There is no military value to any of their actions. They were brought to the table because the people of Ireland demonstrated that they had no time for their violence. This thread ligitimises their murder. This thread attempts to suggest that the actions of the PIRA forced the "crown" to the negotiating table. It sickens me.

It is revisionism, and has no place here in my opinion.

Do you consider murdering civil rights marchers and helping the UVF to blow up shoppers in Dublin military acts ?

BTW, you or the other SAS fan boys haven't addressed the questions of in the SAS/RUC/Brits/UDR etc 'war against the terrorists' -

(A) How many loyalists in the North Armagh/East Tyrone were killed in operations by the above ??

(B) How many Catholics were mown down by British directed UVF gangs in the North Armagh/East Tyrone area ?

It's simple.

There are four organisations authorised to use lethal force in the administration of their duties on the island of Ireland, which are the forces of the signatories of the Good Friday Agreement, voted in by popular mandate on both sides of the border.

1. An Garda Siochana
2. The Police Service of Northern Ireland
3. The Irish Defence Forces
4. Her Majesty's Armed Forces

Anyone else, no matter who/where/what/why who threatens life on this island, is unauthorised to do so.

I wish them either incarceration or a bullet caused, blood-spattered death.

I don't care what flag they cling to, they are criminals in this day and age. If they threaten life, theirs is forfeit.

Dave Joyce

It's simple.

There are four organisations authorised to use lethal force in the administration of their duties on the island of Ireland, which are the forces of the signatories of the Good Friday Agreement, voted in by popular mandate on both sides of the border.

1. An Garda Siochana
2. The Police Service of Northern Ireland
3. The Irish Defence Forces
4. Her Majesty's Armed Forces

Anyone else, no matter who/where/what/why who threatens life on this island, is unauthorised to do so.

I wish them either incarceration or a bullet caused, blood-spattered death.

I don't care what flag they cling to, they are criminals in this day and age. If they threaten life, theirs is forfeit.

People like you amaze me because on one hand "these heinous terrorists who commit murders, bombings etc" but on the other hand it's perfectly fine for the forces of law and order :rolleyes: to summarily execute (for those that have been IGNORING that comment in previous posts, perhaps its that they don't understand the term so I'll elaborate, shoot them dead while lying wounded a speciality of the SAS) wounded Volunteers.....no contradiction there so:rolleyes:

savagecabbages

Dave Joyce wrote: »

People like you amaze me because on one hand "these heinous terrorists who commit murders, bombings etc" but on the other hand it's perfectly fine for the forces of law and order :rolleyes: to summarily execute (for those that have been IGNORING that comment in previous posts, perhaps its that they don't understand the term so I'll elaborate, shoot them dead while lying wounded a speciality of the SAS) wounded Volunteers.....no contradiction there so:rolleyes:

There are no rules in war. Killing someone is killing someone, so no contradiction there. If the PIRA played by the rules they'd have been wiped out. So why would anyone expect the British Army to play by the rules??

I'd be executing my enemy if i were fighting a war.

HellsAngel

Deleted User wrote: »

It's simple.

There are four organisations authorised to use lethal force in the administration of their duties on the island of Ireland, which are the forces of the signatories of the Good Friday Agreement, voted in by popular mandate on both sides of the border.

1. An Garda Siochana
2. The Police Service of Northern Ireland
3. The Irish Defence Forces
4. Her Majesty's Armed Forces

Anyone else, no matter who/where/what/why who threatens life on this island, is unauthorised to do so.

I wish them either incarceration or a bullet caused, blood-spattered death.

I don't care what flag they cling to, they are criminals in this day and age. If they threaten life, theirs is forfeit.

But what happens when said forces don't obey their own rules or international ones. A "my, my, tut, tut" and carry on regardless if not promotion in the British forces and maybe an knighthood or OBE thrown in ??