Irish Times - Proposal to bring train journey times between cities below two hours

Judgement Day

The way things are going now with all the road improvements you're more likely to see the Dublin/Belfast line become a "Greenway" rather than having more money spent on it. Despite a lot of money being spent on it over the last twenty years the journey time is worse than it was back in the 1980s and as for reliability. :rolleyes:

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

The way things are going now with all the road improvements you're more likely to see the Dublin/Belfast line become a "Greenway" rather than having more money spent on it. Despite a lot of money being spent on it over the last twenty years the journey time is worse than it was back in the 1980s and as for reliability. :rolleyes:

I'm already regretting posting here, but when the initial upgrade of this line was proposed, it was already outdated. Despite an EU funding commitment to it, both IE and NIR planned a nice little 1960's rural Ireland approach. Crappy rolling stock with a GM loco in push pull mode mentality.:rolleyes: Add to that the extremely basic track upgrade. Where did the money actually go??? Personally, I'd give nothing to IE until it's ripped apart from floor to ceiling.

The IRRS journals provide a very explosive insight into this project and they don't even realise they do. Having it read it again tonight, the taste in my mouth is bad. Many promises were made that lacked any foresight and can be simply exposed as absolute bull**** of the highest order.

No more excuses. Until the CIE brand and mentality is consigned to the dustbin, the same old crap will continue. It's a draconian semi state that wasted millions and millions in the bad days and good days. The evidence is there to any reader interested in looking at it.

corktina

thats exactly my point. There is no point in investing (more) millions to end up with more of the same. To compete with the motorway (which otherwise will suck the life out of the Cork to Dublin line and others) Investment needs to be focused on providing a high speed railway.100 mph maximum is NOT a high speed railway in this day and age.

The current service averages (if my maths is anywhere near right) just under 60 mph end to end. The improvements being progressed at the moment might improve that average to ,say 75mph, but thats not enough.

A car at the speed limit would do Kent to Heuston in a little over 2 hours today.
In other words a car will beat the trains timings AFTER these "improvements" AND will do the rest of the journey at both ends for you at marginal cost
AND be quicker than using city public transport at either end
ANd at a cheaper cost
AND with no waiting times
AND with no drunks dribblling on you

This is why Id oppose more investment for IE unless it was massive investment in both PROPER line improvements (to 125 capability) AND in Traction able to do 125mph. We dont have any money, so THAT isnt going to happen.

It is CRAZY that IE has had 125 mph capable coaches since the seventies and yet the service is averaging less than 60mph end to end

dowlingm

How about sticking some of these on the end of a Mark 4 set
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/emd-to-produce-passenger-demonstrator-loco/archiv/2011/10.html

AngryLips

They should just rip up the entire northern line and replace it with maglev.

NITransport

Belfast to Cork via Dublin in 1hour 20minutes anyone?

Madrid - Barcelona at 310 km/h with ETCS Level 2

Sponge Bob

NITransport wrote: »

Belfast to Cork via Dublin in 1hour 20minutes anyone?

How about a Dart Underground for €250m, the lot.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/madrid-barajas-airport-rail-link-opens.html

Construction of the 8·8 km airport rail link has cost €218·3m, with the first section over 4·1 km of upgraded infrastructure between Chamartín and a new station at Fuente de la Mora opening on March 24 this year. The remaining 4·7 km to Terminal 4 is new infrastructure running entirely in tunnel, serving one intermediate station at Valdebebas where construction is still ongoing.

The tunnel section features dual-gauge slab track that will enable 1 435 mm gauge high speed services to run to the airport, and catenary that can be energised at 25 kV AC as well as 3 kV DC

dowlingm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

How about a Dart Underground for €250m, the lot.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/madrid-barajas-airport-rail-link-opens.html

Only half the route in tunnel, no sign of a river crossing, no sign of passing through both heavily urbanised and archeologically significant terrain... :rolleyes:

antoobrien

Sponge Bob wrote: »

How about a Dart Underground for €250m, the lot.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/madrid-barajas-airport-rail-link-opens.html

I don't think that includes tunneling costs.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/madrid-tunnel-complete.html

Madrid tunnel complete
17 February 2011

SPAIN: A ceremony on February 11 marked the completion of tunnelling work on the 7·3 km route that will connect high speed lines entering the Madrid from the north and south.

Having driven a total of 6·8 km from Chamartín, the 2200 tonne earth pressure balance TBM broke through into an access shaft sunk close to the former trainshed of Atocha station.

Boring of the 10·4 m diameter tunnel took nine months at a rate of 25 m a day. The tunnel runs at a average depth of 45 m, crossing under the two existing rail tunnels between Charmartín and Atocha as well as eight metro lines.

Work on related civils, tracklaying and tunnel safety equipment totalling €206m will begin within the next few months. Electrification, signalling and telecommunications work is expected to go out to tender shortly.

Sponge Bob

Different job Anto that tunnel you linked is south of Chamartin where the Airport link is north of Chamartin.

The project you linked is a deep TGV Crossrail type project between Atocha and Chamartin stations

Sponge Bob

According to the EIB they will do a 25km or so Quad Track like the KRP south of Madrid overground and a 7km tunnel under Madrid, a Dart Underground in other words.

These are TGV type tracks not Irish guage and load. Much bigger in every way that what IE does.

The cost for the WHOLE LOT will be around €1.275bn

http://www.eib.org/projects/pipeline/2009/20090633.htm

The tunneling MACHINE alone is 125m long. Impressive project this. The tunnel is a 12m wide single bore that can take 2 TGV tracks.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.espormadrid.es%2F2009%2F12%2Fel-tunel-del-ave-atocha-chamartin.html



and then 25km of TGV quad tracking south of the southern portal overground.

The Spanish are, if you like and concatenating the 2 different projects linked by Anto and I, building a TGV capable KRP+Dart Underground+Metro North (albeit with fewer stations overall) and for under €2bn the whole lot.

Yes they work 24 hours in Madrid under peoples houses and no they do not fanny around or let c*nts social partners bleed the coffers dry.

robd

Judgement Day wrote: »

The way things are going now with all the road improvements you're more likely to see the Dublin/Belfast line become a "Greenway" rather than having more money spent on it. Despite a lot of money being spent on it over the last twenty years the journey time is worse than it was back in the 1980s and as for reliability. :rolleyes:

All too true, unfortunately.

I stopped getting the train years ago, when I bought a decent car. Lately, I'm pleasantly surprised each time I travel from Dublin to a major city by motorway. 2 hrs to Belfast docks last Friday in very light traffic with the cruise control turned on. As better adaptive cruise control, which follows the lines of road, appears as standard in new cars, this is only going to get better

DW's points are succinct as always.

IE bought the wrong rolling stock which is going to have to do it for 40 years. Way way way too slow. No amount of upgrading the lines will fix this so may as well give up in these lack of funds times that we now live in.

corktina

well although the mk4s are inferior to the Mk3s IMHO they are i understand 125mph rated and with the right motive power and track improvements would be adequate for the job. The problem is IE is only upgrading to 90/100 mph standard (in some places) which is not fast enough to compete with the Motorways which have loads of spare capacity and, as you say, are populated by ever-improving cars.

They lost you as a customer and I would imagine are losing more each day still

corktina

just out of interest....roughly same distance

Cork to Dublin currently about 2 hours 50 (ave about 60mph)
London to Cardiff (HST) ...2 hours 1 minute. (ave about 75mph)

getting the journey time here below 2 hours is pie in the sky quite clearly without 125 mph running


London to York, just over 200 miles on an Intercity225(km/h) service , fastest i saw 1 (yes1) hr 50 minutes....40 odd miles further than Dublin from Cork and one hour quicker...

robd

corktina wrote: »

They lost you as a customer and I would imagine are losing more each day still

Indeed. It was interesting to do a look up on the Dublin -> Belfast train timetable. I'd no idea it was actually that slow.

Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 07:35 > 09:45
Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 09:35 > 11:50
Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 11:00 > 13:15
Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 13:20 > 15:35
Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 15:20 > 17:27
Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 16:50 > 18:57
Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 19:00 > 21:15
Dublin Connolly > Belfast Central - 27/10 20:50 > 22:57

Fasest train 2.07, Slowest 2.15
So lets say avg 2.10.

Bear in mind it would take me 40+ mins to get to Connolly from Northside of the city and buy and ticket.

3 hrs vs 2 hrs door to door in car.

It's a toy train set, run civil service rail enthusiasts. It offers no real world service.

Also I see Bus Eireann offer a 2.25 our service via Dublin Airport on the hour 24 hrs a day. Pretty stiff competition.

monument

The Belfast-Dublin route should be much faster, but, at the same time, public transport policy can't be based on what suits you.

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

just out of interest....roughly same distance

Cork to Dublin currently about 2 hours 50 (ave about 60mph)
London to Cardiff (HST) ...2 hours 1 minute. (ave about 75mph)

getting the journey time here below 2 hours is pie in the sky quite clearly without 125 mph running


London to York, just over 200 miles on an Intercity225(km/h) service , fastest i saw 1 (yes1) hr 50 minutes....40 odd miles further than Dublin from Cork and one hour quicker...

The fastest Dublin/Cork services are 2 hours 30 minutes not 2 hours 50.

dowlingm

I have no problem settling for 100mph tbh - the problem is that not enough track is 100mph rated. Going for 125 will cause scheduling problems between the Mk4 and 22K services (which are stuck at 100) anyway.

A third track from Hazelhatch to Portarlington would be nice, and maybe even a direct curve (not sure it could be done radius-wise though because of the N7 bridge) at Cherryville Junction to take Mayo-Belview freight out of Kildare Station area.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

The fastest Dublin/Cork services are 2 hours 30 minutes not 2 hours 50.

OK one train in the down direction only.....others are all more or less as I said.

corktina

dowlingm wrote: »

I have no problem settling for 100mph tbh - the problem is that not enough track is 100mph rated. Going for 125 will cause scheduling problems between the Mk4 and 22K services (which are stuck at 100) anyway.

.

so would I but would it acheive a sub two hour time? Paddington to cardiff averages 75 mph with prolonged 125 running...Cork to Dublin at 75 mph average is about two hours is it not? How can that bwe acheived with a 100 max ,?

dowlingm

125mph wouldn't be much use to me if you still had the "after you Alphonse" arrangement at Limerick Junction and you could get stuck behind a 100mph 22K service in the bit between Portlaoise and LJ where 125mph was implemented. Right or wrong the massive 22K buy has limited IE's options for the next 20 years unless Rotem finds a way to upgrade their power in a cost effective manner and consistent with crashworthiness standards.

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

OK one train in the down direction only.....others are all more or less as I said.

No - actually one train in both directions (0615 ex-Cork and 1700 ex-Dublin). The point is that is currently the fastest journey.

It is (I certainly believe) possible to get that down to 2 hours 10 minutes if sufficient PSRs and TSRs were removed.

Other trains can be accelerated by overhauling the stopping pattern to one of bi-hourly fasts (Thurles, Limerick Junction and Mallow), and bi-hourly semi-fasts (Portlaoise and then all stations to Cork).

DWCommuter

Jaysus, the 22Ks were a bad buy at 100mph tops. Don't forget that the MK4s need a breaking modification to run at 125mph and an engine to travel at that speed.

The removal of TSRs etc. and track upgrades will only deliver a modest improvement. Lets face it, IE took their eye off the ball when money was flowing. It appears they were happy to deliver a modern 1970s/80s railway in the 21st motorway driven century. It's sad really because we all know what BR had to do in the 60s when motorways were springing up everywhere.

By the way 125mph running is hardly modern. It's a mere basic requirement in this era. Good oul Ireland, still behind the times in rail transport and always will be.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

It is (I certainly believe) possible to get that down to 2 hours 10 minutes if sufficient PSRs and TSRs were removed.

).

Ive already shown that to acheive 2 hours over this disatnce would require 125 (or at least substantially more than 100) mph running. Current average is just under 60 mph average, Cardiff service averages 75mph. Without the higher limits, you cant improve that timing enough to hit 2 hours on the Cork line without omitting most of the stops and losing passengers, and I seriously doubt you can do it at all with a 201 hauling it.

I wonder if anyone can calculate the average speed cork kent to dublin heuston without breaking the speed limit on the M8.

highlydebased

monument wrote: »

The Belfast-Dublin route should be much faster, but, at the same time, public transport policy can't be based on what suits you.

In some respects, but in relation to intercity services I can't imagine anyone that would want a slow service..!

purplepanda

corktina wrote: »

just out of interest....roughly same distance

Cork to Dublin currently about 2 hours 50 (ave about 60mph)
London to Cardiff (HST) ...2 hours 1 minute. (ave about 75mph)

getting the journey time here below 2 hours is pie in the sky quite clearly without 125 mph running

Last time I traveled Cardiff to London five years ago I asked a inspector what was top speed on this line & he said 105MPH. I then mentioned traveling London to Bristol late '70s, when the new 125 trains were introduced & said I thought they still traveled at the same speed. Seems that the track & signals are not cleared for 125MPH running due to lack of investment & track condition :rolleyes:

Yahew

purplepanda wrote: »

Last time I traveled Cardiff to London five years ago I asked a inspector what was top speed on this line & he said 105MPH. I then mentioned traveling London to Bristol late '70s, when the new 125 trains were introduced & said I thought they still traveled at the same speed. Seems that the track & signals are not cleared for 125MPH running due to lack of investment & track condition :rolleyes:

Cardiff to Bristol stops in NewPort, Bristol, Bath Spa, Chippenham, Swindon, Didcot Parkway, Reading and Paddington.

( Didcot and Bath not always).


But that will slow ya down.

purplepanda

Certainly not an expert, however the fastest domestic sections of track I've been on in England recently are the Trent Valley Midlands & East Coast Main Line to Yorkshire. I don't think either goes faster than 125MPH. Unless London to Bristol has had speeds increased I don't think that does 125MPH either. As I said above it used to in ye olden days!!:eek:

I might well go on a day trip to Margate / Kent coast just for a ride on the new Japanese 140MPH trains as they seem to be the fastest apart from the Eurostar:D

Yahew

purplepanda wrote: »

Certainly not an expert, however the fastest domestic sections of track I've been on in England recently are the Trent Valley Midlands & East Coast Main Line to Yorkshire. I don't think either goes faster than 125MPH. Unless London to Bristol has had speeds increased I don't think that does 125MPH either. As I said above it used to in ye olden days!!:eek:

I might well go on a day trip to Margate / Kent coast just for a ride on the new Japanese 140MPH trains as they seem to be the fastest apart from the Eurostar:D

1:45 is the time to Bristol. Fast enough but probably not, on average or peak, 125 mph.

bk

corktina wrote: »

I wonder if anyone can calculate the average speed cork kent to dublin heuston without breaking the speed limit on the M8.

252km, so 2 hours 6 minutes. Goggle recommends 2 hours 30 mins. The reality is probably between those.

However no one lives in a train station. Even if you get the train down to 2 hours, at best you are still probably only going to equal most peoples door to door speed by car.