Irish Times - Proposal to bring train journey times between cities below two hours

Frank Black

Judgement Day wrote: »

One reason - in case you haven't noticed, things are slowing down - Concorde is gone and even the fast ferries are running at reduced speeds to save on their fuel consumption. We are approaching a major crisis in fuel supply in the years ahead as consumption in Third World countries such as China/India and Russia increases (not to mention South America and Africa) - increasing prices, dwindling supplies - it's not rocket science as to where it's going to lead.

Rail is needed for the future and is too important to left to halfwits in CIE and the Dept.of Transport whose only interest is in the lump or golden handshake. Countries that will prosper in the future are the ones that prepare for the forthcoming crises not the ones who bury their heads in the sand.

Incidentally, I find it amusing to see that dubhthach - a Mod for Infrastructure - is so anti rail and it's typical of a country where politicians and the media always thinks of roads/airports when talking about infrastructure and rail if mentioned at all is an afterthought. :rolleyes:

Good try but wrong.

The equivalent amount of express busses can move the same amount of people with less fuel than a train.

Have another go.

Frank Black

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

The only one embarrassing themselves here is you with your pompous know it all attitude. You're all talk lad.

Do you know what the boards slogan is?






lad.

Judgement Day

black francis wrote: »

Good try but wrong.

The equivalent amount of express busses can move the same amount of people with less fuel than a train.

Have another go.

Great point - can you expand or provide evidence.:rolleyes:

dubhthach

Judgement Day wrote: »

Incidentally, I find it amusing to see that dubhthach - a Mod for Infrastructure - is so anti rail and it's typical of a country where politicians and the media always thinks of roads/airports when talking about infrastructure and rail if mentioned at all is an afterthought. :rolleyes:

I'm so anti-rail that I favour double-tracking of Galway <-> Athenry? If anything I've posted plenty of times in favour of rail schemes such as Metro North, Kildare Route Project and Dart Underground.

However I find it ironic that as soon of words of cutbacks go around due to economic situation that the good folks in IÉ/CIÉ suddenly bring forward proposals to improve inter-city, what it strikes me is more of a means to appear busy and protect their budget allocation. If they had really been doing their job then we would have had these proposals several years ago.

Judgement Day

dubhthach wrote: »

I'm so anti-rail that I favour double-tracking of Galway <-> Athenry? If anything I've posted plenty of times in favour of rail schemes such as Metro North, Kildare Route Project and Dart Underground.

However I find it ironic that as soon of words of cutbacks go around due to economic situation that the good folks in IÉ/CIÉ suddenly bring forward proposals to improve inter-city, what it strikes me is more of a means to appear busy and protect their budget allocation. If they had really been doing their job then we would have had these proposals several years ago.

I presume that double tracking Athenry/Galway was thrown in as a sop to Boardsies outside the Pale as all the other projects you mention are Dublin biased.

Frank Black

Judgement Day wrote: »

Great point - can you expand or provide evidence.:rolleyes:

Here's one study http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tech-transport/plane-train-automobile-travel.html

There's plenty more to back up my point but I'm too busy to look them up for you at the moment.

How about you post up one now that disputes this?

bk

JD but this again is no argument for intercity rail in Ireland.

After all our intercity rail runs on the same diesel that buses do and would therefore be similarly effected.

You do know that bus coaches are a more environmentally efficient then diesel trains?

Specially when you take into account the greater flexibility of bus coaches. IR run full train sets up and down the country, even during off peak times when they are almost empty. While with bus coaches you can decide to run more or less coaches at peak/off peak times to meet demand.

Of course we could eventually electrify the intercity rail routes and power it from Nuclear power. But that would likely cost a couple of billions, no one is actually suggesting that will happen and anyway it ignores that bus coaches can also be run by battery or hydrogen power in the future too.

The environmental argument is a complete red herring. Anyway we could always just moth ball the lines and then reopen them if the necessity arises in the future.

No point in pumping money into rail today when it doesn't achieve what you seem to be looking for anyway (more environmentally friendly).

So again, I continue to wait for a good reason for us to continue to invest in intercity rail in Ireland?

dubhthach

Judgement Day wrote: »

I presume that double tracking Athenry/Galway was thrown in as a sop to Boardsies outside the Pale as all the other projects you mention are Dublin biased.

No perhaps it's because I'm from Galway and spent plenty of time sitting on a train in Athenry trainstation while we waited on the train coming out of Galway. That and it makes sense providing proper commuter service into Galway city (with stations at Oranmore etc.).

Given that the original KRP when first mooted was to Quad-track as far as Kildare town it's fairly obvious it would have improved times for all inter-city traffic into Heuston (eg. Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford), even the "stub" that's been worked on at the moment will at least remove intercity from commuter rail.

invinciblePRSTV

black francis wrote: »

Do you know what the boards slogan is?






lad.

So g'wan then genius, spell it out for us. Tell us why this 175 million is a bad investment beyond your rabble rousing about IR?

dubhthach wrote: »

However I find it ironic that as soon of words of cutbacks go around due to economic situation that the good folks in IÉ/CIÉ suddenly bring forward proposals to improve inter-city, what it strikes me is more of a means to appear busy and protect their budget allocation. If they had really been doing their job then we would have had these proposals several years ago.

Whilst I agree these proposals are overdue, let's remind ourselves IE have been busying themselves readying the interconnecter proposal and have completed the Kildare quad tracking. So surely this proposal is the logical next step to take in renewing the lines out of Dublin?

Stinicker

I'd be of the belief that the first thing Iarnrod Eireann should do is cut its fares. Just taking my own example from Kerry having gone to Dublin twice in the last month for the GAA matches.

€75 by train from Kerry to Dublin is a disgrace and I can drive, fly or take the bus for less than this cost!

You can drive up and down for €70 including the tolls if you drive a Diesel car - €85 if Petrol, depending on your MPG but any reasonable car will do it for this.

Flying is hit and miss but during Ryanair's hayday on the Kerry - Dublin route you had three flights a day and I flew return before for €30 + €12 for Airlink CIE bus to City Centre so €42

Bus Eireanns services from Kerry all change at Limerick and take nearly 5 hours stopping at every two horse town along the way. €38.50 - €42.50 cheaper if booked online.

From the individual point of view I'd much prefer to take the train always unless I got a cheaper flight with suitable timings, driving is hard and 410miles in one day is easily doable just tiring. I'd rather stay at home than have to take the bus as it takes too long, however if Bus Eireann (or a private operator) introduced a non stop coach service serving both the Airport and City Centre in Dublin I would use it so long as it was priced right. Bus Eireann for a start could bring in a direct service every second hour utilising the Motorway network.

Last Sunday Week I drove to Dublin costing around €75 between tolls and fuel and I had 5 people in the car (4 + myself) as I was going to the semi-final, if all of us had travelled by train we would have paid Iarnrod Eireann €375 and for families and groups travelling like this the train is the last option you'd consider due to its outrageous pricing. €45 return would be enough for it.

There will soon be no need for an intercity train service because even if the journey took an hour on a TGV I would not be prepared to pay the ripoff fares by Irish Rail, you can fly to most of Western Europe for the same fee as CIE charge for their slow expensive service to Dublin.

cgcsb

black francis wrote: »

The fact is that for a country the size and population density of Ireland, road is the most appropriate means of transporting goods and people.
For rail to become competitive with road transport, large government investment and cost differential funding would be required. Would this investment would provide value for money? - the short answer is absolutely not!

railways are cheaper than motorways, they cost less to maintain and they are a greener solution than buses, they have a greater capacity than buses. Despite what you have said, Ireland's population is not "dispersed" The VAST majority of people live in the main cities.

cgcsb

black francis wrote: »

The inter-urban road network developed may have cost a significant amount of money - but it is by far the more economical option compared with rail.

In terms of cost per km of motorway constructed we're about average with EU members - this figure is nothing short of amazing when you consider that our land acquisition costs are the highest in the EU.

In other words - our private sector contractors/engineers were able to compensate for the fact that the IFA screwed billions out of the tax-payer because of our spineless government civil servants and their little deal with the IFA around 2002.

The last thing this country should be doing is giving more money to public bodies like IE.

Railways are cheaper than Motorways per km.

Judgement Day

dubhthach wrote: »

No perhaps it's because I'm from Galway and spent plenty of time sitting on a train in Athenry trainstation while we waited on the train coming out of Galway. That and it makes sense providing proper commuter service into Galway city (with stations at Oranmore etc.).

Given that the original KRP when first mooted was to Quad-track as far as Kildare town it's fairly obvious it would have improved times for all inter-city traffic into Heuston (eg. Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford), even the "stub" that's been worked on at the moment will at least remove intercity from commuter rail.

So after the abandonment of inter-city rail as advocated by some here we could a whole raft of mini-DART type ops left over (Athenry/Galway), Limerick/Ennis, Cork/Cobh and the rail vehicles could be trucked back to Inchicore or wherever for maintenance. I don't even know why I bother arguing as the day the kids reach 18 I'm outta this country forever.

Cool Mo D

bk wrote: »

Again Cool Mo D that is no answer.

Please give us a single justification for intercity rail to continue to exist in Ireland?

You can certainly argue that the motorway network was over engineered, no argument there.

But the reality is we have it now and that money has already been spent. So the question now is do we continue to pump money into intercity rail for in my opinion, no justifiable reason or do we maximise the investment in the motorways, license direct non stop bus services and instead spend the money on other more needy projects?

Again what is the justification for the continued heavy investment and subsidy of intercity rail in Ireland?

Because it already exists, carries a lot of passengers, and it is proven time and time again that rail transport is the only effective public transport at getting people out of their cars.

Look at the figures. Every day under 10000 cars drive from Dublin to Cork (That is the traffic levels at the quietest part of the motorway at Cullahill). That is equivalent to about 3.6 million journeys per year. Even lower levels are recorded on the other motorways, for a total of about 15 million intercity journeys per year. Which is not a lot.

Now, last year 40 million journeys were taken on Irish Rail, with 20 million of them on the DART, and about 10 million more on Dublin commuter services.
So that's about 10 million intercity trips.

By any logic, the rail network is of the same order of magnitude of importance as the motorways for intercity travel. Therefore, it deserves to be funded as such.

In the future, running a private car will become increasingly expensive. Fuel prices are not a big issue for a full train, that use truly tiny amounts per passenger with a half full train. A good intercity network will be needed to keep Irish transport competitive in the future.

Last year, Irish rail only spent 7% of their budget on fuel, and much of that was electricity. Bus Eireann spends 15%, and it all must be oil based. The railways can be electrified, coaches cannot at the moment.

Basically the reason to keep the railways are that rail has proven itself internationally to be more attractive to passengers than the bus, as well as much more resistant to oil price rises.
If private coaches take over the intercity network, the cost to the taxpayer will likely go up, as private operators take the profitable direct routes, ignoring the towns along the way, where most of the population actually live.
With a rail connection, cities will be connected to towns in their hinterland, allowing them to survive economically.

Frank Black

cgcsb wrote: »

railways are cheaper than motorways, they cost less to maintain and they are a greener solution than buses, they have a greater capacity than buses. Despite what you have said, Ireland's population is not "dispersed" The VAST majority of people live in the main cities.

Railways are more expensive than motorways, they cosy more per km to maintain and they are a less green solution than buses.
While a train may have a greater 'capacity' than a bus because it's bigger. The capacity of a motorway to move people from A-B is hugely greater than the capacity of the same train line between A-B.

Other than that - great post.

dubhthach

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Whilst I agree these proposals are overdue, let's remind ourselves IE have been busying themselves readying the interconnecter proposal and have completed the Kildare quad tracking. So surely this proposal is the logical next step to take in renewing the lines out of Dublin?

The problem really is though how do we know IÉ will actually deliver. They haven't manage to on any of work they've done since the early 90's. After all they replaced track with continuous weld (concrete sleepers) brought in new trains etc let the average time between any of the "inter-city" routes hasn't improve, even though they were promising times similiar to what's in this proposal.

There is also the simple fact that for want of a better term the State is bankrupt. €35m a year will build 17 new schools (each year) just to compare, we can't afford it at the moment. If back in 2001 the goverenement came out and said we are going to double track all the inter-city routes (including Sligo), I would have said fair play. However given how much IÉ is subsidised by the state to run looking for another €35m a year just sounds like more business as usual in there.

Cool Mo D

Stinicker wrote: »

I'd be of the belief that the first thing Iarnrod Eireann should do is cut its fares. Just taking my own example from Kerry having gone to Dublin twice in the last month for the GAA matches.

€75 by train from Kerry to Dublin is a disgrace and I can drive, fly or take the bus for less than this cost!

You can drive up and down for €70 including the tolls if you drive a Diesel car - €85 if Petrol, depending on your MPG but any reasonable car will do it for this.

Flying is hit and miss but during Ryanair's hayday on the Kerry - Dublin route you had three flights a day and I flew return before for €30 + €12 for Airlink CIE bus to City Centre so €42

Bus Eireanns services from Kerry all change at Limerick and take nearly 5 hours stopping at every two horse town along the way. €38.50 - €42.50 cheaper if booked online.

From the individual point of view I'd much prefer to take the train always unless I got a cheaper flight with suitable timings, driving is hard and 410miles in one day is easily doable just tiring. I'd rather stay at home than have to take the bus as it takes too long, however if Bus Eireann (or a private operator) introduced a non stop coach service serving both the Airport and City Centre in Dublin I would use it so long as it was priced right. Bus Eireann for a start could bring in a direct service every second hour utilising the Motorway network.

Last Sunday Week I drove to Dublin costing around €75 between tolls and fuel and I had 5 people in the car (4 + myself) as I was going to the semi-final, if all of us had travelled by train we would have paid Iarnrod Eireann €375 and for families and groups travelling like this the train is the last option you'd consider due to its outrageous pricing. €45 return would be enough for it.

There will soon be no need for an intercity train service because even if the journey took an hour on a TGV I would not be prepared to pay the ripoff fares by Irish Rail, you can fly to most of Western Europe for the same fee as CIE charge for their slow expensive service to Dublin.

If you book in advance you can get cheap fares. Looking at the Irish Rail website, I can get a return ticket Tralee to Dublin Fri 23rd - Sun 25th September for 20 euro return. It's no different to flights, book a month in advance for a cheap journey.

cgcsb

black francis wrote: »

Railways are more expensive than motorways, they cost more per km to maintain and they are a less green solution than buses.

incorrect on all three counts.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

railways are cheaper than motorways, they cost less to maintain and they are a greener solution than buses, they have a greater capacity than buses. Despite what you have said, Ireland's population is not "dispersed" The VAST majority of people live in the main cities.

Nope you are wrong on almost all counts.

Intercity rail is not greener then buses, evidence here:
http://www.carbonfund.org/site/pages/carbon_calculators/category/Assumptions#Transportation
http://www.gmagazine.com.au/features/82/train-versus-bus

Also Ireland has a very dispersed population by european standards.

Only 62% of people live in cities in Ireland versus 90% in the UK, 77.8% in France and 75.6% in Germany:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/aug/18/percentage-population-living-cities

But even more problematically, even people who live in rural areas of continental Europe mostly live in villages and towns, where we have a much higher proportion of one of houses and ribbon development.

Hey but don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

cgcsb wrote: »

Railways are cheaper than Motorways per km.

I'll take your word for it (not that you have a good track record so far).

But even true, the reality is you will always have to build a high quality motorway network first. That is what even the countries with the best train networks like Germany, Switzerland do. Because the reality is you have to meet the demand for private cars and freight.

No country in the world has a brilliant rail network, but crappy or no road network.

So the question is, now that we have an excellent road network and money is tight, please give a single justification for investing in intercity rail over spending the money on other projects such as Dart Underground or hospitals or Luas BXD, etc. ?

Sponge Bob

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Whilst I agree these proposals are overdue, let's remind ourselves IE have been busying themselves readying the interconnecter proposal and have completed the Kildare quad tracking. So surely this proposal is the logical next step to take in renewing the lines out of Dublin?

NO THEY HAVE NOT. There is a Missing Link of Quad Track between Inchicore and Cherry Orchard.

Let me spell out the real problem. IE will easily spend €175m ( and more) BUT THEY WILL NOT DELIVER A 2 HOUR DUBLIN <> GALWAY schedule.....not even for €500m.

They have been peddling this 2 hour max myth for years.

I simply refuse to believe any more of their ****e, we should not give the parasites a penny.

Judgement Day

dubhthach wrote: »

The problem really is though how do we know IÉ will actually deliver. They haven't manage to on any of work they've done since the early 90's. After all they replaced track with continuous weld (concrete sleepers) brought in new trains etc let the average time between any of the "inter-city" routes hasn't improve, even though they were promising times similiar to what's in this proposal.

There is also the simple fact that for want of a better term the State is bankrupt. €35m a year will build 17 new schools (each year) just to compare, we can't afford it at the moment. If back in 2001 the goverenement came out and said we are going to double track all the inter-city routes (including Sligo), I would have said fair play. However given how much IÉ is subsidised by the state to run looking for another €35m a year just sounds like more business as usual in there.

We know that they are incapable of delivering a good rail service which is why they should be got rid of ASAP. The fact that CIE/IE can't organise a piss-up in a brewery has nothing to do with whether the inter-city rail network is worth retaining.

Frank Black

cgcsb wrote: »

incorrect on all three counts.

I've been asked to (and provided) evidence to back up my arguments - how about you do the same?

Sponge Bob

IE were peddling the same crap in 2006 , remember this anyone???

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054905290

Having got their locos and replaced lots of track the scrotes still cant get anywhere near 2 hours...but they knew they couldn't and didn't care.

HIGH-SPEED trains travelling at 200kmh will cut the Dublin-Cork journey to just two hours.

Passengers can look forward to at least 30 minutes being slashed from the trip.

CIE chairman, John Lynch, last week ordered Iarnrod Eireann chiefs to activate the radical plan.

A €117m fleet of new trains will come into service on the Dublin-Cork route in coming weeks, clearing the way for an hourly service in each direction by the end of the year.

Some 100 miles of track is being replaced for the project.

The current maximum speeds on the route are 160kmh with a best journey time of two hours 30 minutes.

The plan involves significant changes to the infrastructure and to the powering of trains on the route.

Under the scheme, traditional locomotive-hauling, which will operate the new fleet this year, would be upgraded to twin lightweight power cars, operating at either end of the train.

antoobrien

cgcsb wrote: »

Despite what you have said, Ireland's population is not "dispersed" The VAST majority of people live in the main cities.

I take it that the main cities are Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick & Waterford (these are the 5 counties with multiple entries in the census). The figures indicate that (just) less than 1/3 of the population of the state live in the 5 major cities (counting all of Co. Dublin as city/urban).

State Population 4.58m

Main cities - 1.45m
Broken down as
Dublin City - 525,383
Dublin County - 745,220
Cork - 118,912
Galway - 75,414
Limerick - 56,779
Waterford - 46,747

Could you be more specific about what you're raving about the point you're trying to make?

Judgement Day

bk one of your examples: http://www.gmagazine.com.au/features...ain-versus-bus

does not provide very convincing evidence for your arguments.

'THE VERDICT
Buses and trains consume almost the same amount of energy throughout their lifetimes. But heavy rail produces slightly more greenhouse gas emissions.'

bk

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Now, last year 40 million journeys were taken on Irish Rail, with 20 million of them on the DART, and about 10 million more on Dublin commuter services.
So that's about 10 million intercity trips.

But is that because there is no reasonable alternative for people who don't own cars.

If direct non stop coach services existed, would the IR numbers still be so high?

Cool Mo D wrote: »

In the future, running a private car will become increasingly expensive. Fuel prices are not a big issue for a full train, that use truly tiny amounts per passenger with a half full train. A good intercity network will be needed to keep Irish transport competitive in the future.

But bus coaches are more fuel economical then diesel trains.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Last year, Irish rail only spent 7% of their budget on fuel, and much of that was electricity. Bus Eireann spends 15%, and it all must be oil based. The railways can be electrified, coaches cannot at the moment.

More an indication of how much control the Irish Rail unions have. You know it takes 4 times as many staff for Irish Rail to carry a 1000 passengers as it does for Bus Eireann.

That is why wages make up a much bigger proportion of Irish Rails expenses. They are happily sucking off all the subsidies they get.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

If private coaches take over the intercity network, the cost to the taxpayer will likely go up, as private operators take the profitable direct routes, ignoring the towns along the way, where most of the population actually live.
With a rail connection, cities will be connected to towns in their hinterland, allowing them to survive economically.

LOL in another post a rail fan was arguing that most people live in cities!!

But leave the profitable routes to private operators. Unprofitable routes can be operated via profit operators using PSO subsidies.

I find it very hard to believe that the a couple of PSO supported bus routes operated by private operators would cost even 10% of the Irish Rail subsidies.

Remember unprofitable routes are typically routes with low loadings. Bus coaches are much more efficient at handling such routes then trains.

Judgement Day

Sponge Bob wrote: »

IE were peddling the same crap in 2006 , remember this anyone???

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054905290

Having got their locos and replaced lots of track the scrotes still cant get anywhere near 2 hours...but they knew they couldn't and didn't care.

Yes, yes, we all know that IE is crap but it still doesn't mean that railways are.

Frank Black

None of your reasons hold any water, I’ll explain why.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Because it already exists, carries a lot of passengers, and it is proven time and time again that rail transport is the only effective public transport at getting people out of their cars. .

If it didn’t or ceased to exist people would have to use intercity bus services so this is not a reason to continue with inter-city rail.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

By any logic, the rail network is of the same order of magnitude of importance as the motorways for intercity travel. Therefore, it deserves to be funded as such.

Flawed thinking – funding decisions should be based on a rigorous cost-benefit analysis not on usage.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

In the future, running a private car will become increasingly expensive. Fuel prices are not a big issue for a full train, that use truly tiny amounts per passenger with a half full train. A good intercity network will be needed to keep Irish transport competitive in the future.

We’re comparing trains with bus – not private cars.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Basically the reason to keep the railways are that rail has proven itself internationally to be more attractive to passengers than the bus, as well as much more resistant to oil price rises.

First statement is not a reason – and as mentioned may time busses are more fuel efficient than trains

Cool Mo D wrote: »

If private coaches take over the intercity network, the cost to the taxpayer will likely go up, as private operators take the profitable direct routes, ignoring the towns along the way, where most of the population actually live.

What? Private companies would run services that don’t serve the people they are hoping to attract – this does not make any sense to me. Busses are far more flexible in terms of serving smaller population centers than trains.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

With a rail connection, cities will be connected to towns in their hinterland, allowing them to survive economically.

Not even sure what you are getting at here – what would it matter if the connection was high quality bus service as opposed to train?.

bk

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yes, yes, we all know that IE is crap but it still doesn't mean that railways are.

Then turn it over to a private operator, reduce the subsidies to zero and let it compete on an equal commercial footing with direct non stop private bus services.

dubhthach

Judgement Day wrote: »

So after the abandonment of inter-city rail as advocated by some here we could a whole raft of mini-DART type ops left over (Athenry/Galway), Limerick/Ennis, Cork/Cobh and the rail vehicles could be trucked back to Inchicore or wherever for maintenance. I don't evn know why I bother arguing as the day the kids reach 18 I'm outta this country forever.

And where did I call for the abandonment of Intercity? The only way they will achieve a saving of 33 minutes is by double tracking part of the old MG&WR route. I can't seem them proposing double track from Galway to Athlone. The obvious ones in this case are Galway <-> Athenry.

Other option would be to double track perhaps Portlarington <-> Tullamore. In such a scenario you get an improvement in speed on both inter-city and commuter rail. Of course perhaps the main issue at the end of day is IÉ continuous wastefullness and high fares.