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Irish Times - Proposal to bring train journey times between cities below two hours
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Most sensible countries are investing in expanding rail capacity and increasing speeds.
The European Commission have published a White Paper on Transport.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/strategies/2011_white_paper_en.htm
By 2050, key goals will include:- No more conventionally-fuelled cars in cities.
- 40% use of sustainable low carbon fuels in aviation; at least 40% cut in shipping emissions.
- A 50% shift of medium distance intercity passenger and freight journeys from road to rail and waterborne transport.
- All of which will contribute to a 60% cut in transport emissions by the middle of the century.
Comparing us with ‘most’ European countries is just plain silly. We’re an island and a pretty small one at that. One of the advantages of being an island is that we can develop ports around the country where most of our imported materials can be delivered. These ports can be (and are) located close to major urban centers which reduces transport distances. Using a road based distribution centre from these ports makes sense as it avoids the need to double handle the freight. i.e. goods get loaded onto a train and then train goes to urban centre where it gets loaded onto trucks for local delivery as against just loading direct at the port onto the truck.
In continental Europe distances are greater and in some cases (between 300-500km according to most studies) rail transport may make sense – but it’s completely irrelevant to us I’m afraid.0 -
Sponge Bob wrote: »Ah no, the lads give themselves pay rises and overtime with the money we 'invest'. This is what WE get in Ireland.
<Snippity>
I'm not entirely sure I believe that bit about Dublin to Rosslare taking 2:47, when it takes the same train 1:40-2:10 to get to Arklow0 -
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invinciblePRSTV wrote: »You are intent on on closing inter city rail, why else are you proposing such solutions like above? You realise cutting the subsidy and offering inducements for people to use the bus means will just mean the service will be eventually reduced and eliminated.
Well if they can't survive in a level playing field, then there is clearly no need for it?
Either there really is an advantage to rail and it should be able to survive on it's own two feet or there isn't? Which is it?invinciblePRSTV wrote: »I'm sorry but the question of where the 10m inter city journies undertaken by rail is central to the debate. What other forms of transport they utilise is key to the environmental topic and it's as likely, if not more so that people will go by car or by air as they will use a bus.
As I pointed out, even Irish Rail themselves admits bus coaches are greener then rail.
Let me tell you the reality of what is happening on the ground. I'm a corkonian living in Dublin, with many similar friends. In the past all my friends used to take the train to Cork.
In the last two years, every single one of them, except for myself have already switched to the car as it is faster and cheaper. The only reason I haven't changed is because I don't own a car for green reasons, I believe in taking public transport and living a sustainable live. But even I'm sorely tempted to switch to car.
Reducing Cork to Dublin to 2:20 isn't going to get any of my friends back on the train. The reality is they can do door to door in 2:20 minutes, where the train involves getting to and from the station. Pkus the car will still be cheaper.
The reality is Irish Rail is and has already lost most of those people to the car.
However a direct non stop bus service for about €20 to €25 might win at least some of them back onto public transport as it is cheaper then driving.
That is the reality.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »How else would IE increase speeds on the line without upgrading the track and removing obstacles like LCs and speed restrictions?
They finance it by reducing costs and/or increasing ticket prices and finance it themselves. You know like how most normal companies have to operate.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »For 175 million I don't think you'll find better vfm ublic works project considering the number of services which will potentially benefit from it.
But will we actually get what we are paying for. 175 million seems very low to me. As SpongeBob pointed out, Irish Rail have promised all of this before and not delivered, in fact the train has gotten slower!!!0 -
Sponge Bob wrote: »Ah no, the lads give themselves pay rises and overtime with the money we 'invest'. This is what WE get in Ireland.
But SB doesn't that table reflect how there has been minimal investment in the inter city network outside of small scale projects and track renewal? that in tandem with the increase in services in the Dublin commuter portions of the lines and new speed restrictions meant that inter city times remained static.
Surely this project including the missing link you mention and the KRP will go a long way to bringing down IC times to competitive levels.0 -
Nope. Shut it down and stop wasting money on it. End of!!!!
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Well if they can't survive in a level playing field, then there is clearly no need for it?
Either there really is an advantage to rail and it should be able to survive on it's own two feet or there isn't? Which is it?
What railway company doesn't require public subsidies in some form or other? whether it's the USA, the UK, France or Germany, the state is still required to pay somewhere somehow in order to keep the railways running.As I pointed out, even Irish Rail themselves admits bus coaches are greener then rail.
You can't extrapolate the conclusions from a report to close a lightly used rural line whose primary purpose was now defunct and apply then to IC rail.Let me tell you the reality of what is happening on the ground. I'm a corkonian living in Dublin, with many similar friends. In the past all my friends used to take the train to Cork.
In the last two years, every single one of them, except for myself have already switched to the car as it is faster and cheaper. The only reason I haven't changed is because I don't own a car for green reasons, I believe in taking public transport and living a sustainable live. But even I'm sorely tempted to switch to car.
Reducing Cork to Dublin to 2:20 isn't going to get any of my friends back on the train. The reality is they can do door to door in 2:20 minutes, where the train involves getting to and from the station. Pkus the car will still be cheaper.
The reality is Irish Rail is and has already lost most of those people to the car.
However a direct non stop bus service for about €20 to €25 might win at least some of them back onto public transport as it is cheaper then driving.
That is the reality.
Personal anecdotes aside, people will still choose to use the railway. Modest investments like 175m and the hoped for journey times will go a long way to attract people back to the train.They finance it by reducing costs and/or increasing ticket prices and finance it themselves. You know like how most normal companies have to operate.
As i've mentioned, lots of railways require public subsidy. Your broadly free market inspired viewpoint doesn't really apply to railways.(or roads for that matter).But will we actually get what we are paying for. 175 million seems very low to me. As SpongeBob pointed out, Irish Rail have promised all of this before and not delivered, in fact the train has gotten slower!!!
As highlighted previously, IE can and do carry out major public works projects which prove successful from an vfm point of view.0 -
To add to black francis point. What percentage of tickets are at €20, less then 10%? 100% of tickets are €20 return on the bus Galway to Dublin.
The reality is on the train, the vast majority of people pay full price.
In 10 years of travelling Cork to Dublin on the train, I've only once ever got a reduced ticket. Every other time it was €74 (or the equivalent at the time).
If you book 3 weeks in advance, almost every seat will be below €20. People who have to make a trip suddenly can pay the little bit extra. And no, the vast majority do not pay full price, since students, OAPs, children and those with a social welfare pass never have to pay a full fare.
The train in general is better in every way than the bus, and is has even more advantages going into the future when oil will be more expensive, and cities larger, and denser, while still being able to serve medium sized towns throughout the country with short journey times.
The only reason the train is slower is because the massive amount of cash pumped into the road system - which is not justified by usage, along with the incompetence of Irish Rail.
You criticise the amount spent subsidising Irish Rail, but it is a pittance in the context of the money spent on road transport, even taking usage into account, and it is a drop in the ocean of how much the Government spends each year.
Ending intercity rail now is the ultimate in short-termism thinking. Before the DART was introduced, there were commentators calling for the suburban line to be ripped up, for exactly the same reasons you gave above. Fortunately, a modest investment gave the line a new lease of life. This is exactly what the intercity lines need.0 -
BRILLIANT THREAD.
No further comment.:D0 -
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Look the reality is Irish Rail aren't going to get this money to do this.
175 million just to knock 30 minutes off intercity journeys when the countries finances are in such a bad state is a non starter.
The reality is Irish Rail won't see a cent of this and there (and everyone elses) subsidies will be cut (not by as much as I like).
That is the reality.
The best we can hope for in the realm of public transport is that direct express bus services run by private companies will be licensed as that will cost the taxpayer nothing, while making the politicians look good.0 -
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If you book 3 weeks in advance, almost every seat will be below €20. People who have to make a trip suddenly can pay the little bit extra.
That isn't true. That isn't the way it works.
Lets say 1000 of us here on this forum as an experiment go and try to book a ticket on the same train 4 weeks from now, do you think we will all get the same €20 ticket?
The answer is no, only the fist x% of us will get the ticket at that price. Once x% of those tickets are sold, the rest get to pay the full price.
That is how these systems work.
For all we know only 1% of tickets could be €20 and 99% €74. They could be using this as nothing but a trick to advertise cheaper tickets. No one really knows, but it certainly seems to have gotten much harder to get cheaper tickets over the past year according to reports here on boards.
Actually it would make for an interesting Freedom of Information request. Pity FOI's have become so expensive :mad:0 -
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invinciblePRSTV wrote: »I assume IE will rollout wifi in the rest of the inter city routes in time.
They haven't yet, and the buses started this service quite a while back.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Do the maths for me then, 10m + rail journies will need to be replaced, how many new buses will it need?
You didn't state it, so I'm assuming you're talking yearly figures.
The absolute capacity of the Galway-Dublin line using the current timetables and the assumption that all trains are 8 passenger carriages (they're not) is 1.4m passengers. That takes 4 trains (minimum) to run. By my earlier calculations to provide this level of service would require 40 buses. To go to 14m (30%-40% extra capacity on your original 10m+ estimate) would require 400 buses. Using these twice a day (350 days use) would give > 14m capacity in a year.
The replacing of the IE services (not that I'm saying that it's a good or even desirable idea) is hardly impractical, Bus Eireann announced a reduction in its fleet of 150 as part of cost cutting in 2009 (according to the same article the Dublin bus fleet is over 1,000).
Just so you know it's not theoretical, 1 bus route in Galway city (#9, the newest one co-incidentally) carries 1m+ passengers in a year, so you'd be surprised how few it might be (there aren't a massive amount of BE buses in Galway).0 -
antoobrien wrote: »Just so you know it's not theoretical, 1 bus route in Galway city (#9, the newest one co-incidentally) carries 1m+ passengers in a year, so you'd be surprised how few it might be (there aren't a massive amount of BE buses in Galway).
CIE National InterCity Train capacity = 14 Suburban Bus Routes in Galway City. But we must save it no matter what. Galway City Buses get no subvention that I know of either.0 -
The only reason the train is slower is because the massive amount of cash pumped into the road system - which is not justified by usage, along with the incompetence of Irish Rail.
You criticise the amount spent subsidising Irish Rail, but it is a pittance in the context of the money spent on road transport, even taking usage into account, and it is a drop in the ocean of how much the Government spends each year.
The capital budget for Roads is €720 million for 2011 (going on last the last budget). CIÉ was given €288.2m in subsidy last year. Their actual revenue when you ignore this is: €711.3 m (Total of : €999.5m
In comparison their expenses are:
€563.2m for payroll
€470.0m for Operating Costs
€20.6m for "financial costs"
If they were to reduce their payroll+operating costs by 3.5% they would have enough money to finance this scheme. (€35m a year)
I know the 2011 capital budget for Public transport is down as €394 million, what that breaks down as I don't know. I'm assuming a big chunk of it is for IÉ0 -
Lets say 1000 of us here on this forum as an experiment go and try to book a ticket on the same train 4 weeks from now, do you think we will all get the same €20 ticket?
Just for giggles I checked the online prices of trains for Friday 23rd & Sunday 25th September return Dublin to Galway. The price €42 - unless I take the day off, in which case its €32.0 -
That isn't true. That isn't the way it works.
Lets say 1000 of us here on this forum as an experiment go and try to book a ticket on the same train 4 weeks from now, do you think we will all get the same €20 ticket?
The answer is no, only the fist x% of us will get the ticket at that price. Once x% of those tickets are sold, the rest get to pay the full price.
That is how these systems work.
For all we know only 1% of tickets could be €20 and 99% €74. They could be using this as nothing but a trick to advertise cheaper tickets. No one really knows, but it certainly seems to have gotten much harder to get cheaper tickets over the past year according to reports here on boards.
Actually it would make for an interesting Freedom of Information request. Pity FOI's have become so expensive :mad:
As a practical matter, yes it is true. If you know you want to travel at a particular time, you will nearly always get a cheap fare three weeks in advance.
It has not gotten harder to get cheap fares. What used to happen is that unpopular trains would always be cheap, even the day before, and normally busy trains would never be discounted. Now, all trains start cheaper, and the price goes up as they fill.
Irish Rail lets you book 28 days before the train. So if you know you want to travel in one month, you can book it as soon as it's released, and get a cheap ticket every time.0 -
antoobrien wrote: »They haven't yet, and the buses started this service quite a while back..
It'll arrive in time i'm sure.antoobrien wrote: »You didn't state it, so I'm assuming you're talking yearly figures.
The absolute capacity of the Galway-Dublin line using the current timetables and the assumption that all trains are 8 passenger carriages (they're not) is 1.4m passengers. That takes 4 trains (minimum) to run. By my earlier calculations to provide this level of service would require 40 buses. To go to 14m (30%-40% extra capacity on your original 10m+ estimate) would require 400 buses. Using these twice a day (350 days use) would give > 14m capacity in a year.
The replacing of the IE services (not that I'm saying that it's a good or even desirable idea) is hardly impractical, Bus Eireann announced a reduction in its fleet of 150 as part of cost cutting in 2009 (according to the same article the Dublin bus fleet is over 1,000).
Just so you know it's not theoretical, 1 bus route in Galway city (#9, the newest one co-incidentally) carries 1m+ passengers in a year, so you'd be surprised how few it might be (there aren't a massive amount of BE buses in Galway).
So you've come to a figure of 400 new buses then let's roll with it. Now let's factor in the life span of these buses which is what, 10-15 years maximum? And let's consider that not everyone will use these buses so you'll need to factor in increased car sales and plane usage into coming up with a cost for replacing IC railway.
Now consider against that we have a brand new IC fleet with a far longer life span. It doesn't make much sense to scrap a new IC fleet 5 minutes after they are bought whilst either spending capital on a new fleet of buses and/or offering inducements to bus operators whilst scrapping the IE subsidy.
Nope i think a modest upgrade of the IC lines as proposed should go a long way to impoving journey times and attracting people back to the railways.
Again i mention this 175 million is but one bypass of small town x or rural motorway y.0 -
As a practical matter, yes it is true. If you know you want to travel at a particular time, you will nearly always get a cheap fare three weeks in advance.
This is not (always) true - I refer you to my earlier post. I know I want to travel on Friday 23rd and Sunday 25th, but I don't get any significant discount unless I inconvenience myself by taking a holiday day, which can be put to better use than saving €10 (serious case of false economy that).0 -
invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
Now consider against that we have a brand new IC fleet with a far longer life span. It doesn't make much sense to scrap a new IC fleet
I never said we should, but consider the replacement costs of that fleet. How many million per carriage? Consider also if you will the maintenance costs of hiring very specialist mechanics.invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Again i mention this 175 million is but one bypass of small town x or rural motorway y.
60KM of motorway and assorted link roads costs approx €300m (Gort to Tuam, and will probably come in under tender like the majority of the new roads), how much does a train line cost? The last estimate I heard of estimate for making Galway to Athenry (about 20km) dual track was €90m (no land costs they have plenty). WRC cost how much, 200m+ to provide new tracks on an existing (if disused) route?
Indeed given the chronic mismanagement of WRC, it's an argument against putting any new money into rail in this country.0 -
antoobrien wrote: »This is not (always) true - I refer you to my earlier post. I know I want to travel on Friday 23rd and Sunday 25th, but I don't get any significant discount unless I inconvenience myself by taking a holiday day, which can be put to better use than saving €10 (serious case of false economy that).
You are travelling at the busiest time of the week, and still get a discount for booking in advance. If you wait and travel first thing Saturday morning, you get a bigger one.0 -
antoobrien wrote: »I never said we should, but consider the replacement costs of that fleet. How many million per carriage? Consider also if you will the maintenance costs of hiring very specialist mechanics.
Swings and roundabouts really. Either buying a new fleet of buses to replace IC rail versus maintaining the existing IC fleet? the latter makes far more sense in these straigtened times.antoobrien wrote: »60KM of motorway and assorted link roads costs approx €300m (Gort to Tuam, and will probably come in under tender like the majority of the new roads), how much does a train line cost? The last estimate I heard of estimate for making Galway to Athenry (about 20km) dual track was €90m (no land costs they have plenty). WRC cost how much, 200m+ to provide new tracks on an existing (if disused) route?
175m IE are estimating for delivering improved journey times across pretty much all it's IC journies bar Belfast & Rosslare. That's not bad when you consider how much has been splurged on the roads over the past decades whilst the IC railways were barely touched.antoobrien wrote: »Indeed given the chronic mismanagement of WRC, it's an argument against putting any new money into rail in this country.
The WRC wasn't mismanaged by IE, they built it to budget and delivered exactly what was asked for by central government.
It's not IE's fault the WRC should never have been re-opened in the first place.0 -
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invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Again i mention this 175 million is but one bypass of small town x or rural motorway y.
If you dig into IÉ report from 2010 you see that their Revenue (as oppose to that of wider CIÉ group) was €190m, their deficit excluding state subsidy is €200m. In otherwords they are spending €390m on revenue of only €190m.
This is a crazy situation tbh of their total spending circa €257m is going on payroll! (65.8% of total costs). The average salary in there works out about €53k (€20k higher then industrial average).
http://www.irishrail.ie/about_us/pdf/IE%20Annual%20Report%202010.pdf0 -
Brilliant, from the above doc:
From Irish Rails mouth.
Clearly even Irish Rail don't think rail is the best way to service PSO routes.
LOL, even more from IR:
For God's sake why quote Irish Rail opinions on the railways when the dogs on the street (but obviously not you) know that there's a anti-rail mindset in CIE/IE. It has pervaded the senior levels of CIE for as long as I'm following their shenanigans (1976) and has now filtered through to the humblest employee. :rolleyes:0 -
invinciblePRSTV wrote: »Swings and roundabouts really. Either buying a new fleet of buses to replace IC rail versus maintaining the existing IC fleet? the latter makes far more sense in these straigtened times
Ah, but you're forgetting the really big advantage of getting rid of rail. You wouldn't have to purchase a new fleet of busses. The private sector would fill in most of the capacity. Something they can't currently do with rail obviously.0 -
If you dig into IÉ report from 2010 you see that their Revenue (as oppose to that of wider CIÉ group) was €190m, their deficit excluding state subsidy is €200m. In otherwords they are spending €390m on revenue of only €190m.
This is a crazy situation tbh of their total spending circa €257m is going on payroll! (65.8% of total costs). The average salary in there works out about €53k (€20k higher then industrial average).
http://www.irishrail.ie/about_us/pdf/IE%20Annual%20Report%202010.pdf
I'm in general agreement with what you say but I'm here to talk about this projects merits, not to discuss IRs sweetheart wage scales.black francis wrote: »Ah, but you're forgetting the really big advantage of getting rid of rail. You wouldn't have to purchase a new fleet of busses. The private sector would fill in most of the capacity. Something they can't currently do with rail obviously.
Of course the private sector will benefit, between increased car sales and increased use of regional air routes then plenty of private actors will benefit at the demise of IC rail.
So it doesn't matter who pays for them, scrapping a brand new railway fleet and replacing with a new bus fleet, more cars and increased usage of regional air routes is both economically and environmentally unsound.
Seems to me you just have an ideological disdain for publicly funded railways. Nothing wrong with that but I don't think we can take what you have to say about proposals such as this at face value.0 -
invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
Seems to me you just have an ideological disdain for publicly funded railways. Nothing wrong with that but I don't think we can take what you have to say about proposals such as this at face value.
Yes, it's called having an opinion. I really don't know what you mean by 'face value'. I think I've been pretty clear in my views on this subject.
I would guess most of the pro-rail arguments on here are made by those who are either working for IE or have some sort of ideological disdain for bus transport.
Only in a country like Ireland would we spend billions on trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Problem: What's the best way to move goods and people around our small island?
Answer: Road transport.
Haven't seen one post in the whole thread which can dispute this and yet we continue the folly of trying to run an expensive and unproductive rail system.0 -
invinciblePRSTV wrote: »I'm in general agreement with what you say but I'm here to talk about this projects merits, not to discuss IRs sweetheart wage scales.
Yes but the point is why should the state have to pony up an extra €35m a year when it's already ponying up €167m to try and balance the "Current budget" of IÉ? -- Which doesn't succeed as it still has a operating deficit of €36m.
the state is running a deficit of €17 billion. If the state is to increase it's spend on IÉ by €35m a year over the next 6 years then that money has to come from cutting €35m from other budgets eg. Departments of Health, Social Welfare, Education etc. or from raising an additional €35m in taxes (either indirect/direct).
I'd have no problem with the capital budget been so increased if IÉ can guarantee to provide at least some savings on it's current budget that would go part of way of offsetting the cost to the exchequer. Instead I can imagine that the usual situation will prevail and any such savings in time on journeys (which have been promised for over 10years) won't occur.
Aside from that other then a vague promise on improved times does anyone actually know what is proposed as part of this project. Eg. Track improvement/Signalling/new trains etc.0 -
If road transport is so great why does it require massive subsidies from the exchequer, along with subsidies for nearly all bus routes? If road had to compete on a free market basis, with no new building or maintenance from government, how well would that work?
Why are you ok with subsidising roads, and not rail? There are almost as many people using the Cork - Dublin train as traveling intercity on the Cork - Dublin motorway, yet if the same amount was spent on the railway as on the motorway, you could run the trains for decades.
And also, you seem to want to hand over all intercity profit to private operators, while leaving the public companies with the loss making routes. So, in the end the taxpayers would have any profitable passengers taken away, and subsidies to Bus Eireann going up. Coupled with the cost of building massive city centre bus stations to handle the old rail traffic, where exactly is the saving to come from?
What Irish Rail need is reform, and focus on deliviering the most passenger km for the least cost.0 -
Well as IE refuse to carry freight on their shiny trains (bar Tara Mines traffic) that 'solution' of yours will result in all of us starving to death. So No!Why are you ok with subsidising roads, and not rail? There are almost as many people using the Cork - Dublin train as traveling intercity on the Cork - Dublin motorway, yet if the same amount was spent on the railway as on the motorway, you could run the trains for decades.
Impossible, de members and the managaement will never allow that.What Irish Rail need is reform, and focus on deliviering the most passenger km for the least cost.0 -
Irish Rail's problem is that they have promised journey reduction times before and not delivered. That is the heart of the matter. IE's chairman must be able to demonstrate why this plan will succeed where past ones failed.
I note the comments above about other companies coming in and taking over from CIE management. This has only limited appeal to me - it might work for Enterprise because of its odd joint nature but any other transfers will have issues of staff transfer etc. (see TEAM Aer Lingus etc.) LUAS cannot be compared to IE because its industrial relations came from a clean sheet of paper, with a "new" union (SIPTU) which had an incentive to differentiate itself from the climate in CIE.
The only service I can see improved in the short term by a transfer to new management would be Enterprise, if doing so simplified the process of adding new service which is currently shackled by the need for both NI and ROI to agree/fund.
IE is carrying so much freight through Ballina (timber to Waterford (Belview?), containers to Belview and North Wall) that they've had to reopen Westport as a timber loading area. It's not reinstatement of Silvermines shale or cement etc. but it may be that the low point has already been reached.Sponge Bob wrote: »Well as IE refuse to carry freight on their shiny trains (bar Tara Mines traffic)0 -
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If road transport is so great why does it require massive subsidies from the exchequer, along with subsidies for nearly all bus routes? If road had to compete on a free market basis, with no new building or maintenance from government, how well would that work?
Why are you ok with subsidising roads, and not rail? There are almost as many people using the Cork - Dublin train as traveling intercity on the Cork - Dublin motorway, yet if the same amount was spent on the railway as on the motorway, you could run the trains for decades.
And also, you seem to want to hand over all intercity profit to private operators, while leaving the public companies with the loss making routes. So, in the end the taxpayers would have any profitable passengers taken away, and subsidies to Bus Eireann going up. Coupled with the cost of building massive city centre bus stations to handle the old rail traffic, where exactly is the saving to come from?
What Irish Rail need is reform, and focus on deliviering the most passenger km for the least cost.
The Motorway network was built while we actually had money to invest in capital expenditure. It's no good looking at what was spent during the boom years and then demanding equivalent spending on Rail during recession.
According to CIÉ report for 2010 they spent €4.1billion over the previous 10 years on infrastructure. This is across all three companies.
The actual current budget for road maintenance is €147.5 million a year. Of the Capital budget a further €270 million is for maintenance and improvement of regional and local roads -- which total 90,000 KM of road in this country.
Bus Éireann shouldn't be getting a subsidy either, what subsidy does GoBus, Citylink and numerous other private bus comapanies get from the state?0
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