What can you kill with a SAM-7 ?

whydave

So with the fall of Col Muammar Gaddafi, what will happen to the large numbers of SAM-7,and if they find their way into the hands of your friend and mine ''Al-Qaeda'' .What can they kill with them (ie shoot down)?

savagecabbages

Pretty much anything if you hit it in the right place... But it is a small man portable missile at the end of the day you won't hit anything at altitude, and may not even damage something enough to take it 'out of theatre'. Against a fase jet you'll have trouble acquiring a target and firing one off before the jet goes out of range.

I do recall reading that the Sa-7 didn't live up to expectations when it first saw action in Arab hands agains the Israelis in one of their many wars in the 1970s/60s... Not sure was this down to how the weapon was operated, or the actual performance...

OS119

whydave wrote: »

...What can they kill with them?...

in a military context they are (potentially) effective against helicopters and low, slow flying aircraft. the 'potentially' is because a) no SAM system has ever lived up to the manufacturers claims, b) to be systemiclly effective you need the firer to be reasonably well trained and to wait for the right firing parameters, and you need the target to not be using defensive countermeasures or defensive flying techniques.

and by and large, neither happen.

in terrorism terms any half-wit could sit at the end of a runway and lob one in the general direction of a 747 taking off and have a better than 50/50 chance of causing mass casualties.

some mitigating factors however are that the Libyan regime has form for buying high end kit that frightens us, but never distributing it because it didn't trust anone (sensible really...), and then not looking after it particularly well so that - even when liberated - it doesn't work, and that the SA-7 was produced in massive quantities, made into the hands of every guerilla group in the world, and yet has shot down, in relative terms, bugger all.

Fratton Fred

Two SA-7 missiles were fired at an israeli flight in Mombassa a few years back and they both missed.

There are suggestions that the Israeli Charter flight launched flares, which does make you marvel at the Israelis determination not to lose a plane!

Manic Moran

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Two SA-7 missiles were fired at an israeli flight in Mombassa a few years back and they both missed.

There are suggestions that the Israeli Charter flight launched flares, which does make you marvel at the Israelis determination not to lose a plane!

Don't forget about the DHL airbus which took a hit in Baghdad, was well perforated, and still managed to land. Pics shouldn't be too hard to find.

NTM

testicle

Manic Moran wrote: »

Don't forget about the DHL airbus which took a hit in Baghdad, was well perforated, and still managed to land. Pics shouldn't be too hard to find.

NTM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Baghdad_DHL_attempted_shootdown_incident

whydave

Manic Moran wrote: »

Pics shouldn't be too hard to find.
NTM

BlaasForRafa

Manic Moran wrote: »

Don't forget about the DHL airbus which took a hit in Baghdad, was well perforated, and still managed to land. Pics shouldn't be too hard to find.

NTM

Mayday aka Air Crash Investigations on the Discovery Channel did a decent dramatisation of it. The plane lost all hydraulics and was the first plane in aviation history to successfully land without hydraulics.

There was actually a french journalist with the terrorists when they launched the missile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_BfhyZa67A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB3GAmbFljw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxu9ZEhnyQU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgW7olYovRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aprUpNXBhDg

Cork boy 55

What are the stats on MANPAD success against helis in Iraq and Afganistan
I understand they have had a limited effect once proper tactics and jammers and decoys are used against them.

A hit by a MANPAD on a large airliner is not 100% fatal event.

Any idea how many Libya has?
and what types?
The sam-7 is pretty old at this stage
I am pretty sure Libya was several type's of newer MANPAD

Libya is a black market weapons paradise now wathcing the news there
and the rebs where driving field guns out of a barracks attached to their jeeps. Also in another clip I seen them packing a truck to the rafters with ammo crates. Also plenty of evidence of local people looting arms dumps and barracks with no control.

RE: The sam-7 that PIRA got off Libya, when they where fired failed to lock
on the Britsh helicopter and whistled away
Their was specaltion the British had IR jammers on heli
After that the batterys went dead and they could not recharge them
Thats what I was told anyway.

Cork boy 55

In the Rhodesia Bush war, Black communists terrorists shot down two airliners with SAM-7s

One semi-sucessfully crash-landed,
The other went down with all hands.

The one that crash-landed, some of the passengers including the women and chldren where massacared by the terrs at crash site.

http://www.viscountdown.com/

I would imagine modern bigger airliners would be more surviveably.

whydave

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Any idea how many Libya has?
and what types?

It was stated on RT that they had over 10,000 of a number of different types.

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Black communists terrorists shot down two airliners with SAM-7s

more info on that here

Stovepipe

Hi there,
One of the main problems with the SA-7 is that it's battery isn't worth a damn and it's electronics need careful minding, just like any MANPAD and, in most cases, it didn't get the TLC it needed. Secondly, even the Russians were less afraid of their own SAM in Afghanistan, compared to the Stinger. The SA-7 is also a tailchase missile, so it has time to track and strike a slow airliner or a slow helicopter but less time to chase, catch and bring down a fast fighter. In defence of Russian stuff, Western weapons like the Blowpipe have also shown to have a poor strike rate in actual combat.
regards
Stovepipe

whydave

OS119 wrote: »

in terrorism terms any half-wit could sit at the end of a runway and lob one in the general direction of a 747 taking off and have a better than 50/50 chance of causing mass casualties

Well done NATO !!!

OS119

whydave wrote: »

Well done NATO !!!

you could probably do the same with an RPG-7. the fact that vast quantities of light/individual weapons are flowing around Libya is nothing to do with NATO - the SA-7's were purchased by Gaddafi, held by him, then captured by Libyan citizens.

there's nothing to suggest that they work any better than either any of the other SA-7's floating around the world, or that Gaddafi took any greater care of them than he took of any of his other mantainence requiring systems.

personally, i'm not concerned - any group thats going to go the risk of sitting at the end of Heathrows runway and trying to shootdown a commercial airliner is unlikely to base such a plan on using an SA-7.

it would be akin to going to Helmand Province with a water pistol and cardboard Body Armour. foolish.

Raging_Ninja

OS119 wrote: »

it would be akin to going to Helmand Province with a water pistol and cardboard Body Armour. foolish.

Like putting a bomb in your underwear :pac:

Old Salt

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

In the Rhodesia Bush war, Black communists terrorists shot down two airliners with SAM-7s

One semi-sucessfully crash-landed,
The other went down with all hands.

The one that crash-landed, some of the passengers including the women and chldren where massacared by the terrs at crash site.

http://www.viscountdown.com/

I would imagine modern bigger airliners would be more surviveably.

I am the author of a book (referred to in the above link) on the shooting down of these two airliners in which 107 passengers and crew were killed. (Flight RH825 and Flight RH827) The capability of the SAM-7 was found to be largely underestimated - with a speed of Mach 1,7 and altitude height of 12,000ft AGL. Slower moving aircraft than large airliners stand a better chance of avoiding a missile by spiralling in a corkscrew patern to about 15,000 ft while ascending/descending. Larger aircraft cannot turn as tightly during the corkscrew process and are more vulnerable while climbing. Results of seven missile attacks on passenger aircraft are given with reasons for both failure and success. Military aircraft were also brought down with SAM-7 missiles during the Rhodesian bush war.

testicle

OS119 wrote: »

in terrorism terms any half-wit could sit at the end of a runway and lob one in the general direction of a 747 taking off and have a better than 50/50 chance of causing mass casualties.

Tom Clancy's latest book - Against All Enemies - is about just that.

tricky D

OS119 wrote: »

personally, i'm not concerned - any group thats going to go the risk of sitting at the end of Heathrows runway and trying to shootdown a commercial airliner is unlikely to base such a plan on using an SA-7.

from By Way of Deception, Victor Ostrovsky
PLO/Black September tried to use them to assassinate Golda Meir as her plane was landing at Fiumicino January 15 1973. This attempt was foiled by Mossad with minutes to spare.

According to the account, the search area was around 5 x 13 miles from the runway threshold and the PLO/BS had brought 12 missiles for the attack.

OS119

tricky D wrote: »

from By Way of Deception, Victor Ostrovsky
PLO/Black September tried to use them to assassinate Golda Meir as her plane was landing at Fiumicino January 15 1973....

that was 40 years ago. no one undertaking the risk today of attempting to down an airliner is going to rely on an SA-7 to do the business - there are vastly better MANPADS, (within the limits of 'better' as it applies to MANPADS) available today....

Cork boy 55

OS119 wrote: »

that was 40 years ago. no one undertaking the risk today of attempting to down an airliner is going to rely on an SA-7 to do the business - there are vastly better MANPADS, (within the limits of 'better' as it applies to MANPADS) available today....

The SAM-7 is considered a first generation MANPAD
We are now into the fouth generation to use the arms dealer lingo.

That's the big question is what other types of's MANPADs are on the black market now in North African,
and what of other weapons, sniper rifles plastic explosives etc
Judging by the news and the amount of Kit gaddafi stockpiled in his arms dumps Libya looks like one the most heavilyed armed countries on earth per captia,

The various irregular groups in Northern African are going to have a field day in terms of resupply. We are already seeing a wave of car bombs in Algeria and Nigeria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda_Organization_in_the_Islamic_Maghreb

There's going to be some blowback from getting rid of Gaddafi thats for sure.

OS119

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

...There's going to be some blowback from getting rid of Gaddafi thats for sure.

i disagree - certainly in terms of arms proliferation.

we can be reasonably sure that whenever Gaddafi went, whether he died in his sleep at age 99 or in two years time in front a firing squad after a completely unsupported rebelion, that there was always going to be a fight over his succession. he has four sons who are/were seriously involved in the regime, and probably there were half a dozen other men (particularly the intelligence cheif) who would have believed that they had a chance of holding the top job.

so, the status quo was that was always going to a breaking out of the armouries, there was always gong to be conflict between the factions - both inside and outside the regime - the only variable was when that conflict happenned and who were the conflicting charactors.the weapons build up was always going to hit the streets and the arms markets at some stage - whether thats now or in 5 years time is a bit of a non-issue.

the one mitigating factor now is that the new government - and i use that tern loosely - is friendly with the west, has stated that they see arms proliferation as a threat and want to start collecting some of this stuff back in, and will want to remain freindly with the west because they need to buy a new Army, Navy and Air Force.

and somehow i doubt the Russians and Chinese aircraft manufacturers are going to get a look in now the NTC are in 'charge'.

Cork boy 55

MANPAD report from the Arms control assocation(however they are)


None of the more than 40 MANPADS attacks against civilian aircraft have occurred in the western hemisphere

http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/manpads


As illustrated above, MANPADS are neither the super weapon feared by alarmists nor the paper tiger dismissed by skeptics. The threat is much more complex and requires a carefully crafted, multifaceted response.

http://www.armscontrol.org/print/2700

And from Stratfor


Perhaps the biggest worry right now in terms of Libya’s uncontrolled military arsenal is the looting of MANPADS, which is quite possibly the biggest blow to worldwide MANPADS counterproliferation efforts since Iraq in 2003. Historically, MANPADS have been very appealing to insurgents and terrorists. Libya is estimated to have at least 400 SA-7 Grail (9K32 Strela-2) surface-to-air missiles in its military inventory. With Libya’s largest perceived regional air threat coming from Egypt, it is likely that a substantial portion of its MANPADS stocks were positioned in the eastern part of the country when the current civil war started. We have seen open-source photos of Libyan rebels carrying SA-7 missiles (not always with gripstocks), and one photo even depicted a rebel launching an SA-7 at a pro-Gadhafi warplane. While the airstrikes by pro-Gadhafi aircraft have been largely ineffective, the attention these attacks have been receiving in the press could lead some countries to supply additional, and perhaps even more advanced, MANPADS to the Libyan rebels.

As noted in STRATFOR’s previous coverage of MANPADS, at least 30 civilian aircraft have been brought down and approximately 920 civilians killed by MANPADS attacks since 1973. These attacks brought about the concerted international effort to remove these weapons from the black and gray arms markets. While MANPADS attacks against civilian aircraft have declined in the last decade, sting operations and seizures of illicit arms shipments clearly demonstrate that militant groups continue to work hard to get their hands on the weapons. This means that any MANPADS not used against pro-Gadhafi aircraft in the current conflict will be sought out by militant groups in the region and by arms dealers, who will seek to sell them elsewhere for a profit.



http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110309-will-libya-again-become-arsenal-terrorism

Cork boy 55

The Sam Song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htV8pffqhbE

tricky D

OS119 wrote: »

that was 40 years ago. no one undertaking the risk today of attempting to down an airliner is going to rely on an SA-7 to do the business - there are vastly better MANPADS, (within the limits of 'better' as it applies to MANPADS) available today....

Not disagreeing with you at all. More an fyi. Part of the reason for the post was just to point out that first, you don't have to be close to the threashold at all, you could hide up somewhere up to about 10ish miles from the airport and secondly, they brought along a dozen of them, possibly due to them being so hit or more often miss/not enough damage.

Cork boy 55

The Rwanda genocide started after The assassination of Juvénal Habyarimana and Cyprien Ntaryamira on the evening of April 6, 1994
The airplane carrying Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana and Burundian president Cyprien Ntaryamira was shot down as it prepared to land in Kigali, Rwanda. The assassination set in motion some of the bloodiest events of the late 20th century.

The presidential jet ( Dassault Falcon 50) was
Brought down by two SAM missiles (one missed)
The type was a MANPAD SAM-16 IGLA-1

Cork boy 55

Old Salt wrote: »

I am the author of a book (referred to in the above link) on the shooting down of these two airliners in which 107 passengers and crew were killed. (Flight RH825 and Flight RH827) The capability of the SAM-7 was found to be largely underestimated - with a speed of Mach 1,7 and altitude height of 12,000ft AGL. Slower moving aircraft than large airliners stand a better chance of avoiding a missile by spiralling in a corkscrew patern to about 15,000 ft while ascending/descending. Larger aircraft cannot turn as tightly during the corkscrew process and are more vulnerable while climbing. Results of seven missile attacks on passenger aircraft are given with reasons for both failure and success. Military aircraft were also brought down with SAM-7 missiles during the Rhodesian bush war.

How much where outsider Governments involved in these attacks?
Who provided the missiles?
training?
maintenace?
and who pulled the trigger?

In other words did the terrs get a lot of help or did they manage it themselves?

jimmybeen

Hi all, I am new here, can a sam 7 be fired at, for instance, a group of machine guns, at maybe 2k away, or can be fired at a static target with no heat other than body heat, same distance? does it always need heat or can it just be pointed at a static target, and does anyone what one sounds like coming, and does anyone know what the explosion signature is like,
the reason I am asking is a group colleagues were hit many years ago, and the thing they most remember was the incredibly blinding flash, and the dead were killed by blast not shrapnel, also it made a screeching noise as it came in, there were troops in the area armed with sam 7, but they are unsure if it was them,
any help much appreciated.
bye for now Jimmy.

concussion

The SA-7 has a fragmentation warhead - you massively increase your chances of damaging the aircraft if you put a load of jagged metal in the air.

jimmybeen

concussion wrote: »

The SA-7 has a fragmentation warhead - you massively increase your chances of damaging the aircraft if you put a load of jagged metal in the air.

Hi, thanks for that, a number of the people in the area are peppered with tiny pieces of fragmentation that penetrate clothing but does no serious harm, and as I say had no real injuries other than those killed by blast, but everyone speaks of intense bright flash which cause a few temporary blindness,

Stovepipe

If they were fighting Russian equipped enemies, it could have been an 82mm recoilless rifle or a 107mm Katyusha rocket or even a weapon such as a Sagger ATGM.I think a basic SAM might be confused by the heat signals radiating off hot ground or from vehicles.

regards
Stovepipe

jimmybeen

Stovepipe wrote: »

If they were fighting Russian equipped enemies, it could have been an 82mm recoilless rifle or a 107mm Katyusha rocket or even a weapon such as a Sagger ATGM.I think a basic SAM might be confused by the heat signals radiating off hot ground or from vehicles.
regards
Stovepipe

Hi, location was falklands, some sort of argy missile.
but I have been looking up types of explosive, for sam 7 / Strela
very thin casing and most of the energy ends up as fireball and blast/shock wave.
The characteristics of this weapon category are the creation of a large fireball and good
blast performance.
which sound like the type of injuries, but I am still unsure if a sam 7 can be pointed at such a position and fired,

Cork boy 55

jimmybeen wrote: »

Hi, location was falklands, some sort of argy missile.
but I have been looking up types of explosive, for sam 7 / Strela
very thin casing and most of the energy ends up as fireball and blast/shock wave.
The characteristics of this weapon category are the creation of a large fireball and good
blast performance.
which sound like the type of injuries, but I am still unsure if a sam 7 can be pointed at such a position and fired,

Libya did provide 120 SAM-7 to Argentina during the war

I don't see why its cannot just be pointed and shot,
I know that it can be fired without a target or lock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4RN8pH8liQ&feature=related

concussion

Stovepipe wrote: »

I think a basic SAM might be confused by the heat signals radiating off hot ground or from vehicles.

regards
Stovepipe

This fact hinders the use of basic IR missiles in hilly terrain - you get a lot of clutter. From what little we know of this incident, I tend to agree that it would have been a HEAT round rather than a SAM.

jimmybeen

concussion wrote: »

This fact hinders the use of basic IR missiles in hilly terrain - you get a lot of clutter. From what little we know of this incident, I tend to agree that it would have been a HEAT round rather than a SAM.

Hi, it would have been fired from one plateau to another with flat ground inbetween for 1k, it was definitley a rocket of some sort,

Stovepipe

@jimmybeen, the Argentinians had the 106mm bazooka and some types of recoilless rifle and also used aircraft unguided rocket (68mm) launchers on the ground, which is what the Libyan rebels are also doing these days.
regards
Stovepipe

whydave

surprise ,surprise ....... Al-Qaeda acquires missiles in Libya !
more here

whydave

A rebel takes stock of weapons and ammunition in a munitions storage hanger at a government military base which they captured in Ajdabiyah, on March 1, 2011.

Cork boy 55

Interesting CNN report on it

Not sure about the soucre some NGO guy talking to CNN

3 points
Libya had Igla misslies which are more modern and far superior MANPads
than the sAM7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K38_Igla

The figure of 20,000 is mentioned again

He also mentions that the MANPAD are the number one item for lootors at arms depots.
Why? is that because they belive they can sell them back to government or NGO's or nato for cash???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpZRSN8zUS8&feature=grec_index

Victor

Individually, such weapons don't have a huge military merit, however, if you have several of them, with other weapons, they are a realistic threat / defence. In 2003, 100+ Apaches attacked what they believed was a tank division south of Baghdad, but was infact an anti-aircraft trap. Something like 79 of the helicopters were damaged, although none were shot down.

whydave wrote: »

A rebel takes stock of weapons and ammunition in a munitions storage hanger at a government military base which they captured in Ajdabiyah, on March 1, 2011.

No smoking please!

whydave

Weapons control NTC style !!!!

whydave

Missiles looted from Tripoli arms warehouse !!!
( link )

Victor

whydave wrote: »

Missiles looted from Tripoli arms warehouse !!!
( link )

CNN wrote:

Missile 9M342

9M342 is the model number, not the serial number. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/9k338.htm

johngalway

whydave wrote: »

Found it, told you my filing system worked!

alanmcqueen

"Individually, such weapons don't have a huge military merit, however, if you have several of them, with other weapons, they are a realistic threat / defence. In 2003, 100+ Apaches attacked what they believed was a tank division south of Baghdad, but was infact an anti-aircraft trap. Something like 79 of the helicopters were damaged, although none were shot down."


Any source/link for that story please? Thanks.

Victor

Air Forces Monthly towards the end of 2003 - a contract had been awarded for the repair of the helicopters. I don't have that copy to hand.

I did find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache

The AH-64 took part in invasion of Iraq in 2003 during Operation Iraqi Freedom.[79] In one engagement on 24 March 2003, 31 Apaches were damaged, and one Apache was shot down and captured by Iraqi troops near Karbala.[80] The intended attack against an armored brigade of the Iraqi Republican Guard's Medina Division was unsuccessful. The tank crews had set up a "flak trap" amongst terrain and employed their guns to good effect.[81][82] Iraqi officials claimed a farmer with a Brno rifle shot down the Apache,[83] but the farmer denied involvement.[84] The helicopter came down intact, and both the pilot and co-pilot were captured.[81] The AH-64D was destroyed via air strike the following day.[85][86]

Most Apache helicopters that have taken heavy combat damage have been able to continue their missions and return safely.[82] In 2006, an Apache helicopter was downed by a Soviet-made Strela 2 (SA-7) in Iraq. The Apache is typically able to avoid hits by such missiles but in this instance it did not.[87] The coordination of Apaches in the war was discussed by Thomas Adams, who noted the helicopters tended to fight in small teams but had little autonomy to react to local threats and opportunities, requiring lengthy dialogue with command structures in an effort to centrally micromanage each unit.[88] As of 2009, 12 Apache helicopters were shot down by enemy fire during the Iraq War.[citation needed]

I had thought it was 22 March, the day before the shoot down of 85-25407.

Other losses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

alanmcqueen

Many thanks Victor, appreciated.

whydave

Two caches with 43 anti-aircraft missiles and other weaponry have been unveiled in Algeria. Local security forces say the arsenal was smuggled in from Libya and buried near the border.
The two caches were found near the town of In Amenas, in southern Algeria on the Libyan border. That is according to Algerian daily El Watan, which cited on Monday an unnamed security official. One cache contained Russian 9K338 Igla-S (NATO reporting name SA-24 Grinch) and 9K32 Strela-2 (SA-7 Grail) shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile systems – all taken from the arsenals of Libya’s former leader, the late Muammar Gaddafi.

More here

whydave

Link

tac foley

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Mayday aka Air Crash Investigations on the Discovery Channel did a decent dramatisation of it. The plane lost all hydraulics and was the first plane in aviation history to successfully land without hydraulics.

Not strictly true, as every aircraft ever built BEFORE the incorporation of hydraulically-operated/assisted controls landed without them.

tac

whydave

''In a move that could dramatically increase the number of serviceable man-portable air defence systems (MANPADS) in the hands of non-state actors, a group affiliated with the Free Syrian Army (FSA) has released a video detailing how it improvised a power pack to keep a Strela-2 (SA-7 'Grail') MANPADS operational and has offered to provide further advice to other groups.
Most MANPADS come in boxes containing two missiles and four batteries. However, the batteries last less than a minute, providing little time to lock on to a target, which is a particularly serious problem for inexperienced operators who find it difficult to judge when an aircraft is inside the system's engagement envelope. The system effectively becomes useless once all the available batteries have been used.''

Link

Gott

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Two SA-7 missiles were fired at an israeli flight in Mombassa a few years back and they both missed.

There are suggestions that the Israeli Charter flight launched flares, which does make you marvel at the Israelis determination not to lose a plane!

If I remember correctly all Israeli planes (El-Al flights, I'm supposing) carry counter-measures to defeat MANPADS. Not to mention most of their pilots are ex-Air Force and I'm not surprised they failed.

The Israelis might be very paranoid but their record speaks for itself.