Ok ...so I've decided I'll build my own watch

peasant

Did a bit of internet skimming and all sorts of people are putting all sorts of dials & movements into all sorts of cases ...so now I will too

I'm sure for someone with no idea what they have let themselves in for (me), no experience (also me) and no tools (yepp, me too) it will be an interesting journey ...but I've made a start anyway:

STEP 1:

purchase dial & movement of choice: tick





As I said, I only skimmed the internet for how-to's ...but the one thing that stuck for converting a pocket watch into a wristwatch is that apparently it is so much easier when you start with a pocket watch that has the crown on 3 and not on 12 as per usual. So I hope that step one was completed semi-successfully.

Furthermore ...it's another Molnija movement (could it be anything else?) and they're getting converted by the dozen so it couldn't be THAT difficult. Or could it ...I shall find out.


STEP 2:

pick a suitable case:

Well, that'll have to wait until I have the pocket watch in my hands, to accurately measure all it's dimesions. I don't fancy having to heavily re-work the dial or movement (nor could I, tbh) so the case will have to fit as well as possible.

However ...should it fit, this GETAT case would go nicely with the dial
http://www.siswatch727.com/showroom/model/largepic.jsp?p=../user/1239717806671017346/gallery/b_1240305111859012308.jpg (sorry, pic doesn't imbed)


STEP: 3 - ???

WIN


any and all input/ideas/encouragemnt will be gratefully received

peasant

Step 2.5

further investigation reveals that at some point I'll need one of these:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/spare-part-MOLNIJA-3602-3603-Aufzugswelle-winding-stem-/380353071200?pt=DE_Mode_Accessoires_Uhren_Schmuck_Taschenuhren&hash=item588ecf4860

a spare winding stem that will then have to be cut to the correct size.

I can feel beads of sweat forming on my brow already at the thought of cutting it too short

(luckily they come in sets of two )

Wibbs

When I want to learn about how to pick a well thought out stylish bargain I read you P, on building a watch I await Marcus to guide the way.

To my untutored eye you've picked the right movement. As you said winder at 3. THough it has the sub seconds at 9 so maybe looks like a redial? A true wonder at 3 movement would have the subsecond at 6 I'd have thought?

Can't wait to see the result of your labours. :eek::)

marcus1971

Jeez, talk about clever minds thinking alike........

Just finished a built from scratch very recognizable classic myself.....and by just finished I mean at 2 this morning.
I've been picking up parts over the last 3 weeks on eBay and it all came together in only a few hours once everything was lined up and ready to go.
I had a thread all ready to post and resisted pushing the submit button because, as we all know..... THOSE THREADS ARE USELESS WITHOUT PICS!!!!!, and with all the hassle of trying to sell up here in the states and move back home I won't be able to set the camera up for a few days.

Maybe I'll just post it and put up the pics in a few days.

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

STEP: 3 - ???

WIN


any and all input/ideas/encouragemnt will be gratefully received

Step 3, GO FOR IT..

Its probably going to be easier than you think - you have already done the research and thats more than half the job, you'll need to buy a few tools....need to be able to adapt stuff you have all around the house etc. to use as tools.....McGyver style

(I have modded lots of watches and built a few from bits and pieces have lots of tools but I have never EVER used a tweezers, every time I try it I get pissed off and wind a piece of Rodico around a cocktail stick and use it for placing all my screws etc., works for me but any real watchmaker would kick me in the arse for doing that, there is no set way of doing anything, you'll probably make up your own processes as you go along)

You'll spend more time waiting for stuff to arrive/researching what to do rather than actually hands on the watch itself....once everything is assembled and ready to go it doesn't take very long to put it all together.
The advantage of not actually knowing 100% for sure what you are doing means you will probably adopt your own method for what is basically pressing hands onto a disk and fitting that disk into a case and a bit of fine tuning from there...

peasant

Wibbs wrote: »

To my untutored eye you've picked the right movement. As you said winder at 3. THough it has the sub seconds at 9 so maybe looks like a redial?

At the moment the general idea is to plop the whole thing into a new case as is ...possibly even without taking the dial off the movement at all.

I'm sure that plan will have to change at some stage ...we'll see

My Aristo/Molnija also has the sub-seconds at 9

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

At the moment the general idea is to plop the whole thing into a new case as is ...possibly even without taking the dial off the movement at all.

I'm sure that plan will have to change at some stage ...we'll see

My Aristo/Molnija also has the sub-seconds at 9

You should only have 3 issues to deal with:

1: Does the dial fit the opening

2: Does the stem line up perfectly ...this is vvvvery important especially if the stem is very short.

3: Is the case deep enough to accept the movement

You are going to need a movement ring to keep it secure in the case, this is where it gets custom, you already have one in the pocketwatch as it is, this would probably need to be machined to make it fit the new case OR there may be an off the shelf option somewhere out there, this is going to be your only stumbling block, easily overcome though.

You might try looking at what Helenarou has to offer:

http://www.helenarou.com/index.html

peasant

Yepp, that's it ...three issues only. Let's see how many devils will be hidden in the details.

Step 2.8:

- get batteries for my digital calipers

- research dimensional differences between Molnija 3602 and Unitas/ETA 6497/98 movements that most cases are designed for

EDIT: seems that there is good news and bad news.
The good news is that the height/positioning of the winding stem is identical (phew !)
The bad news is that the ETA has a diameter of 36.6 mm at the body and 37.2 mm at the collar ...wheras the Molnija is 36 at the body and 36.6 at the collar ...meaning it will fall straight through the ETA sized hole

Ways will have to be found to make up 0.3 mm all round or to adapt the Molnija movement ring to fit the case.

Theoretically this looks to be the only real issue...but one that I might actually overcome

Nolimits

Good luck with your project, btw, I sent you a PM yesterday or the day before.

chinwag

Fair dues to you guys. I've always had a bit of a fascination about watches, clocks and how they work but never did anything like the enterprise shown here. Is there anywhere in Dublin where one can get some sort of practical lessons on watch assembly, repairs, etc? That's of course if I could hold that magnifying glass to my eye in order to see the parts!

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

Yepp, that's it ...three issues only. Let's see how many devils will be hidden in the details.

Step 2.8:

- get batteries for my digital calipers

- research dimensional differences between Molnija 3602 and Unitas/ETA 6497/98 movements that most cases are designed for

EDIT: seems that there is good news and bad news.
The good news is that the height/positioning of the winding stem is identical (phew !)
The bad news is that the ETA has a diameter of 36.6 mm at the body and 37.2 mm at the collar ...wheras the Molnija is 36 at the body and 36.6 at the collar ...meaning it will fall straight through the ETA sized hole

Ways will have to be found to make up 0.3 mm all round or to adapt the Molnija movement ring to fit the case.

Theoretically this looks to be the only real issue...but one that I might actually overcome

Is it just the movement thats undersized or is the whole dial/movement combo falling through?, once the dial sits in the opening its just a case of getting a movement ring that fits or to make your own ring fit you can get it machined down if its too big or shim it up to fit if its too small.

Sounds like you may already be well on your way.

peasant

I'll only know the exact dial size once I have the pocket watch in my hands ...which will be another 2 or so weeks.

Getat are so nice as to list on their site which dial size fits which case ...so that will be THE deciding factor in choosing a case (now that it has been established that the rest can be made to fit somehow)

peasant

I've been searching the internet for the last few days for any and all hints about Molnija conversions and the info out there is anything but exhaustive.

Still, I have learned that:
-my original case choice from Getat is a bit too small and doesn't accept the dial ...a 47 mm version would work, but that's too big for me (and also not available in black).

After pouring over other alternatives and rejecting them for different reasons, today I have commited to a case even though the watch isn't even here yet and there is no detailed info available as to case dimensions




...must learn to be more patient

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

..must learn to be more patient

good luck with that.




I been searching over the various other forums here and there, the only conversion I have seen the 3602 (?) used in seems to be various incarnations of 6154 Rolex/Rads/MM/Kampfschwimmers that kind of thing.....and have not seen anything <47mm, so far.... I'll ask a few lads on the other forums for recommends.

peasant

The movement is not what worries me.

Any case that will take the Unitas/ETA 6497/98 will also take the Molnija, on account of it being one ligne (whatever that is in mm) smaller in diameter but otherwise nearly identical. A few shims and a bit of a bodge will make it fit ...somehow.

The thing is that I want to take the dial along with the movement and most cases were designed so that you have to buy a specific dial with them. If I'm lucky it'll fit, if not, the search begins anew.

FWIW, my Aristo/Apucto has a 43 mm case and takes the movement just fine ...with an Aristo dial of course.

marcus1971

Maybe thats why all the conversions I've seen have abandoned the seconds hand and settled for hours and minutes only, its possible that the aftermarket dials dont bother with the subdials to allow them to fit a broader range of movements.

If this is of any help, I did "devise a way" of reducing the diameter of a dial once using a Dremel .... Get the cutting disk attachment and instead of putting in a cutting disk attach the dial to it through the centre (a bit of low tack masking tape to protect it), clamp the Dremel into a bench vise, spin it up on the lowest RPM setting and gently file it with a jewellers file, or even a fine steel file, barely rub the dial as it spins, don't let it get hot and check the diameter as you go......might take a while but it does work.

If the dial is too big maybe you could use a flat gasket just to hold it in place.

peasant

Believe it or not, I've been looking at my Dremel sideways already ...wondering if doing just that would be possible

I'm currently also bidding on a second Molnija watch (hoping to get one for a handful of Euro) that might have to serve as a guinea pig for in situ, Dremel-powered movement finishing :rolleyes:

peasant

Minor change of plan ...

The original donor watch has just been relegated to the parts bin

Reason being ...I found a better one! Exact same dial, exact same watch except for one minor but very important detail ...the movement is not the 3602 but the 3603.



The eagle eyed among you will spot the springy, caged jewel on the balance staff. That's the bit that makes all the difference in that this movement has improved shock protection.

These movements are rare as hen's teeth and to my knowledge have only made it into very few pocket watches that were available on the open market. Instead they were sold as movements only to be used in other applications (clocks for inside vehicles for example, which Molnija also made) and the latest craze for big Flieger watches or classical looking pieces with small second hands meant that the market has been swept clean of these movements by the countless re-casers out there. Molnija no longer exists and so no more new movements are availble.

Finding such a rare movement with the exact dial that I wanted is a really lucky stroke ...I'll take that as a good omen for the rest of the build.

peasant

on that note ...

While that movement is rare, it's also as rough as a bear's arse

Anyone ever tried sprucing up the movement a bit while it's still assembled?
Proper Geneva stripes or the roundy swirls (whatever they're called) are out of the question ...I certainly do not want to take the movement apart, finish it and put it back together ...I know my limits.

I have another dead Molnija watch in the post (for spare parts and de-hamming my fists before I start work on the real thing) so I might try one or two things to improve the looks.

Any recommendations on polishing a movement in situ without doing damage?
(other than being very, very careful...)

EDIT ..I'll probably give blueing the screws a go too ...but only if the blued screws find a nicely polished home, otherwise it would be pearls before swine.

Zagato

peasant wrote: »

on that note ...

While that movement is rare, it's also as rough as a bear's arse

Anyone ever tried sprucing up the movement a bit while it's still assembled?
Proper Geneva stripes or the roundy swirls (whatever they're called) are out of the question ...I certainly do not want to take the movement apart, finish it and put it back together ...I know my limits.

I have another dead Molnija watch in the post (for spare parts and de-hamming my fists before I start work on the real thing) so I might try one or two things to improve the looks.

Any recommendations on polishing a movement in situ without doing damage?
(other than being very, very careful...)

EDIT ..I'll probably give blueing the screws a go too ...but only if the blued screws find a nicely polished home, otherwise it would be pearls before swine.

It sure does seem to have a lot of screws!

marcus1971

Theres not really much you can do without taking it apart.

You could try polishing select pieces with a cape cod, torn into strips and wrapped around someting like a toothpick

You could try bringing out the grain that is already present by colouring it with the insert from a kids felt tip marker and wiping off the excess with a cotton bud or similar to leave whatever colour you picked left in the valleys of the grain, maybe a blue hue to match the screws if you decide to blue them?

Or give it a light polish, just enough for a bit of lustre and then dye the valleys with a marker and wipe off ... That might look pretty good for a small amount of work.

The various finishes that the fancy movements have are usually just various polishing techniques, you could try an eraser made for biro ink and not pencil, remember the grey and white ones we had in school? well the grey part can be used to great effect in re-brushing bracelets and awkward brushed finishes on watch cases, if you could devise some way of pressing a cylinder shape out of an ink eraser, cookie cutter style, it might be possible to create some crude perlage swirls on the bridges like this guy does:

http://web.ticino.com/dcorson/watch/WatchNet-6_files/WN6.htm

...and then giving them a little polishing with a cape cod or the best stuff in the world for effortless hand polishing... Mothers Mag and Aluminium Polish (a tiny amount applied to a piece of cotton wool very tightly wound around the tip of a toothpick/skewer or similar, they probably sell it in Halfords))


You would have to use some inventive way of masking off the innards to prevent bits o crap getting into the movement
if you don't want to dismantle it, although if you have a spare movement you could try practising taking it apart, or if any parts are interchangeable you could try working on pieces of the donor movement and transferring them over......

Or you could buy a 3601 and forget about modding it altogether

http://www.homageforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=361


I think you should have a bash at finishing it yourself though.

Edit: Or you could try a cheap brush plating kit from these guys:

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm

Wide variety of plating options, brass, gold, copper, silver, rhodium and so on.....the surface prep might be an obstacle, but the finish would not be subject wear so a less than perfect prep might actually work out.

peasant

I could also save myself all the trouble and just buy this:

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Rare-MOLNIJA-STATE-QUALITY-MARK-of-the-USSR-large-wristwatch-1970s-/280735620771?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item415d259ea3

a rather "interesting" conversion ...looks like a hunter case pocket watch movement and dial were housed in an open face case that was turned by 90 degrees and had some lugs soldered on

Deep Thought

Good Idea

peasant

The initial conversion candidate (see first post) has arrived.

The dial is everything I had hoped for, rich colours and a nice relief texture. It's also made of plastic

Can't wait to get stuck in now ...but it will be another while before all the other bits get here.


As for shock protection:
This nominally unprotected watch survived the postal journey from Lithuania in nothing but a jiffy bag and a very miserly layer of bubble wrap.


EDIT:

Of course I couldn't help myself and had to have a first go at taking it apart.
Surprisingly simple really. Pop the caseback (roundy tip table knife works perfectly), unscrew two screws, release the stem (on this movement really simple, just pressing a small button with a needle), pull the stem out ...movement is loose now. Turn it over, pop the glass and bezel (knife again) and take out the whole dial and movement. Assemble in reverse order. The whole operation took under 5 minutes, the watch still works and I didn't do any damage.

I might just be able to do this whole project


@marcus 1971
The bad news is ...there ain't no ring/movement holder. The hole case IS the ring and turning that into an improvised movement holder would be next to impossible as it would be difficult to turn down, what with the large gap for the lid release and stem.
But my case comes with a ring for the Unitas which I'm sure can be bodged/adapted and just in case I bought some movement clamps as well,so I'm still pretty confident that I shouldn't run into insurmountable difficulties.

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

The bad news is ...there ain't no ring/movement holder. The hole case IS the ring and turning that into an improvised movement holder would be next to impossible as it would be difficult to turn down, what with the large gap for the lid release and stem.
But my case comes with a ring for the Unitas which I'm sure can be bodged/adapted and just in case I bought some movement clamps as well,so I'm still pretty confident that I shouldn't run into insurmountable difficulties.

Only a very minor speedbump there, there are lots and lots of McGyveresque alternatives to the traditional movement ring.

I told you it would be easy, next step is taking off the hands and removing the dial.....as daunting as this stuff seems it really is easy once you are super careful not to damage the movement, which are more robust than you would think.

You gonna try some finishing on the movement?

peasant

marcus1971 wrote: »

You gonna try some finishing on the movement?

Don't know yet.
I have a dead watch coming in. I'll try taking the movement apart on that one first to get at the bigger, polishable parts. Depending on how well that goes (or rather on how much collateral damage I could possibly do) I might just leave well enough alone.

It might perhaps serve as a donor for srcews to be blued. Or perhaps I could exchange movement parts bit by bit after polishing them.

I'll decide as I go along ...first priority is to make it fit. Spit and polish could always be done at some later date (there is a long winter ahead )

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

Don't know yet.
I have a dead watch coming in. I'll try taking the movement apart on that one first to get at the bigger, polishable parts. Depending on how well that goes (or rather on how much collateral damage I could possibly do) I might just leave well enough alone.

It might perhaps serve as a donor for srcews to be blued. Or perhaps I could exchange movement parts bit by bit after polishing them.

I'll decide as I go along ...first priority is to make it fit. Spit and polish could always be done at some later date (there is a long winter ahead )

My money says, once you have all the parts ready and your "tools" on standby, you will do it in an afternoon......


(good news on the plastic dial, that will be really easy to turn down a couple of mm if needed)

peasant

Today the dead watch arrived. It has already served it's purpose in teaching me a few things:

- that rough finish on the movement ...it can not be simply polished. Took off the main bridge and gave it a careful rub down with a fine emery board. The slightest bit of pressure and the brass comes through while the ridges are still there. So now it looks brassy and basically still rough. To achieve a good finish this would have to be carefully machined and re-chromed ...that ain't gonna happen. A good clean with a trusty tooth pick and rodico is a ll that's going to happen here

- I wasn't born to be a watchmaker . Bloody heck ...I'm so sausage fingered, it's embarassing. If that watch hadn't already been dead, by now it surly would be. Slipping screwdrivers, screws dropped into the hairspring ...you name it, I did it. I think I need to change the title of this thread. No way am I going to build my own watch ...aint got the skillz for that. Best I can hope for is that I will successfully assemble my own watch without having to do too many fiddly things. Blued screws and any other ambitious ideas are cancelled for the time being. Valuable lesson indeed and well worth the price for the dead watch.

- The watch came with lovely blue hands . I managed to get them off without damaging them. With any luck I'll also manage to transfer them to the other watch.

peasant

Today the case came ...and all the fretting was wasted energy.

Took the dead watch, plonked it right in, tightened the back and it fitted no problem. The dial is a fly**** too small for the diameter of the case and the supplied movement ring does nothing but add noise (falls straight over the movement), so without the caseback on the whole dial/movement assembly is ever so slightly loose in the case.
But if I bring the fixing screws flush with the movement (i.e make the movement diameter that big bigger at the top) and tighten down the caseback, the whole thing fits like it was meant for this case, including the all important stem alignment.

Had I done just that with the intended Molnija watch, I would have been regaling you with proud pictures all evening ...but I had to go and complicate things

I wanted to take off the silver hands from the intended watch and replace them with the blue hands from the dead one. The Presto hand remover I had ordered from ebay had been cancelled (not available anymore) and so I made my own. A thin strip of plastic, bent into a U-shape with a notch cut into the bottom leg to slide in under the hand and pull it off ...worked a treat on the minute hand but the hour hand was a bit more stubborn and that's where things went orribly wrong :rolleyes:

Somebody had fiddled with this watch before and the dial wasn't mounted with proper dial feet but with double sided tape ...so on pulling that bit harder, the whole dial came off, including the minute wheel and while doing so it flung my lovely second hand somewhere across the room and into oblivion ...bugger!

I had already lost the second hand from the dead watch (but that one would have been too big anyway) so I had to pilfer the second hand from the other pocket watch. But that had also already been fiddled with and the poor thing is totally bent ...not really the perfect choice, but it's all I've got (left).

Fitting the hands was a bloody nightmare ...they just WOULD NOT go on properly. The hour hand was fine but the minute hand wouldn't either go on at all or it would not turn or turn and pop off after a bit. Closer inspection showed that is was bent ...after unbending it fitted a treat.

The socond hand is really fiddly to fit ..the shaft and corresponding hole are so small you can only guess their postion and mating the two needs a really steady hand and a good aim. And then the bugger would fall off as son as I tried to assemble the watch and turned it over ...four goes (in about as many hours ) I had ...now it's on and I hope it stays on. The poor dial has suffered a bit around the second hand area though ...as I said above ...a born watchmaker I aint.

Anyhow ...now it's in and I'm going to bed ...more tomorrow.

marcus1971

Don't shoot the messenger but..... I would be willing to put a decent amount of cash on the likelyhood of that seconds hand falling off again, it sounds like its too big for the cannon pin, this is an easy fix though.
You can either see if it falls off or just take it off yourself and to make it fit you need to slightly crimp it where the pin fits in......it is a good idea to guesstimate the size of the pin thats on the watch and then find something a shade smaller in circumference,
(a pack of sewing needles usually has a dozen or so different sizes , use the blunt end in the hole of the seconds hand)
insert it into the seconds hand and crimp the barrel..I use a pliers on a Leatherman tool...be VERY VERY gentle and try refitting, if its still loose tighten it some more..if you made it too tight loosen out the hole a little bit with a needle or whatever you used when crimping it.

The best strategy to use when working on a watch is to sit at a table on a chair that is waay too short....you should try to be at eye level with the table top, rest your elbows on the table and work on the watch in whatever you use as a holder. To fit the seconds hand you can use a piece of rodico/blu tack on the tip of a skewer/cocktail stick, hover over the pin and slowly drop it over the pin, as soon as it is placed remove the stick/rodico and gently press it down with something more solid but non marring.

For the hour and minute hands I have an assortment of straws and tubes...when I put my "Rolex" together I used the straw from a WD40 can to press on the hour and minute hands and the square end of a matchstick to press on the seconds hand, anything that won't damage the finish of the hands will be fine.

Sometimes for taking the hands off a lever is better than the presto remover.....I use the large fork end on the Bregeon springbar tool, a very small cocktail fork might work..put a piece of card on the dial at the side you are going to lever first and just gently pry one side and then the other, they usually come off easy...and to stop them flying across the room you can try doing it with the watch inside a big ziplock bag.

But hey, you made your first watch, congratulations

peasant

You won that bet ! It fell off again.

But I don't think that it being too big is necessarily the reason, there are two others.

- the dial being affixed with double sided tape makes it sit slightly higher ... less grip for the collar of the hand on the shaft

- while the whole assembly sits tight in the watch, it's not 100% snug. When operating the crown, it moves ever so slightly. The dial however is pinned down against the case but the movement moves ever so slightly on the back of it ...prying the seconds hand off in the process.


Possible solutions:
Fitting the movement ring in what is basically the wrong position (under the stem, not over it) secures the movement better, so there will be less wriggle room

The replacement stem I bought doesn't seem to be quite right, it takes more force and has more play and excerts higher forces on the assmbly. I'll have to see if I can fit the new crown on one of the original stems. But that will probably involve cutting a 1.2mm thread on it, for which of course I don't have any tooling either.


As for the seconds hand ...if none of the above makes it stay on I will (avert your eyes) bloody well superglue it

marcus1971

A few possible fixes:

Slightly crimping the seconds hand will work to some degree....remember the small register hands on a chrono sometimes have less than 2mm of a barrel to fit over the pin

Its also likely that if the double tape is dodgy the barrel of the seconds hand will be rubbing against the side of the hole in the dial causing it to lever itself off

Take off the dial and sand the underside on a flat sheet of fine sandpaper, reduce the thickness....this will also change the height of the winding stem, so if the stem is already 100% true this might not be a good idea

Forget about the two sided tape, even the permanent two sided tape takes up to a week to reach full strength, try using jewellers epoxy...there are different cure times with epoxy...10mins up to 30mins, dont use superglue, its too brittle, will melt the plastic dial and raises up fingerprints all over the inside of the watch CSI style......
Mix up a small amount of epoxy and apply the tiniest of dots with a pinhead to the movement and try to drop the dial on square and true first time so as not to spread the glue where you dont want it to go.

Check the stem is 100% centered, a new/replacement stem will be a lot longer than the one that was already cut for the watch, mock up the assembly and insert the full length stem then check for it being center to the tube, you will probably find that with the longer stem that its off by a couple of degrees somewhere, this makes a huge difference when fitting the stem.

It is possible that the seconds hand was already glued on and in removing it you snapped off a portion of the pin....I have done this more than once, apart from some really serious strip and rebuild work on the movement the only solution is to find a seconds hand with a longer barrel to fit further down on the pin

The easier alternative would be to get a dial with no seconds and just make do with the pam style hours and minute hands.

Patience is the key though, if the whole thing is beating up on you, just walk away, leave it for a day or two then come back to it.

peasant

What happened next ...

I did indeed glue the hand to the stem (that was before the above post) and that worked pretty well ...to a degree .
The hand stayed on and didn't fall of immediately ...but I did find that when I worked the stem that the seconds hand would move sideways, sometimes stopping and eventually falling off again (pried off by the dial ...I have since found the solution to that problem, but more about that below). After re-glueing it two more times, by the last attempt I had finally built up enough superglue residue on the hand that I effectively glued the collar of the hand to the rim of the hole in the dial and stopped the hand and the whole movement in the process :D:D

So off it came again (very carefully) and in the process of cleaning the superglue residue off the hand I dropped the fecker again ...could not find it anymore :mad:
At that point I was ready to explode with rage and go on a killing spree (like Micheal Douglas in the movie) when fate intervened. While searching for the one hand, I found the long lost other one ...the blue one that I really wanted to fit in the first place
That one fitted really well, except it was a bit too long and didn't fit into the dial recess. So today I learned a new skill ...how to cut a small seconds hand without bending it:
Basically, you bury it in Rodico and only leave the bit sticking out that you want to cut ...then gently cut with a scissors, excavate it from the Rodico, fit it ...WIN!!

But on assembling the whole watch, I still had the problem that working the stem would sometimes stop the movement, other times it would not engage quite right or on turning the watch the movement would stop by itself ...all in all the whole thing just didn't work right.

By repeatedly fitting and re-fitting caseback and stem, it dawned on me that I was putting too much pressure on the movement, causing it to flex in itself and the stem to become misaligned. So I turned in the (ex) fitting screws by another few rotations (they are what the caseback grips on) and now everything fits snugly without too much pressure and everything works as it should.

I will have to take it apart and put it together one more time (to really clean it ) and then you'll get some pictures too.


Here's a teaser ...the protective film is still on, that's why it is so manky

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

Not at all too shabby, are you going to wear it as is for a few days or get stuck into ripping it apart right away?


* Take the hands off inside a bag or something this time, don't put yourself through that searching again...
the last time I lost a hand it took me 20 minutes to find it, in my hair!!!

It is a pita though, when after searching for what seems like hours for that one essential part that days later you walk into the room and see it on the floor from 15 feet away, this is also usually after you have fired the offending timepiece across the same room rendering the find useless anyway

peasant

I'll keep it running now until tomorrow, to see how much all of my hamfistedness has affected timekeeping (so far, so good) and then I'll take it out of its case one more time, dab everything with Rodico (fantastic stuff that) and put it back together for hopefully the last time in a long while.

The hands will stay on for the cleaning (hopefully) this time

And then to buy a strap ....black obviously, perhaps with red stitching.

peasant

Famous last words

I may indeed ..finally ...(fingers crossed and knock on wood) have gotten it right this time.


After the pevioust post (where everything was running hunky dory) I had to (of course !!) put the watch on an available Nato strap to see how it wears.

That's when I noticed that the whole assembly was indeed very loose inside the case, so much so that you could see and hear it moving. This fact had previously been disguised by me pinning the whole assemble between caseback and dial rim until the movement bent ...nothing loose there.


So of course I had to open the thing and have another look. The movement ring that came with the case (designed for a Unitas movement which is slighty bigger) was of course very loose. In my assembly it sits on the back of the dial, under the stem and (in theory) stops the movement from moving from side to side ...which it didn't.

So shims were needed. A root around the house for all sorts of thin materials to wedge between movement and ring turned up nada ...everything at hand was too thick. So I resorted to sellotape ..well some 3M tape very similar to sellotape that I found in a drawer somewhere. One layer of tape on the outside of the ring and three layers and some spaced bits on the inside later and everything fits very snugly. Movement into ring, ring into case ...you can just about get it in and out and nothing rattles anymore.

Assemble the whole watch, tighten caseback and...nothing works anymore :mad:. Second hand isn't moving, pulling stem in and out moves the second hand laterally and finally pops it off ...F***

Long story short ...after lots of trial and error, finally I seem to have found the right postioning and right amount of tension (via caseback and fixing screws) that has everything working as it should.

This movement has the stem, winding works and second wheel in one line (9 - 3). The slightest misalignment of the movement in the case, the tiniest bit of too much pressure causes the winding stem to go into the works at an angle, upsetting the second wheel (and the whole wheel train with it of course). Wriggle the movement a bit and you can watch the balance wheel slow down ...it's amazing how sensitive the whole thing is. I really would not want to build a watch where you have to drill the whole for the stem yourself ...out by a hair's breadth and the whole thing will never work properly.

Anyhow ...for now my watch is working as it should. I'm now thoroughly sick of it and have put it into a corner, hoping that it will still tick, wriggle its hands and show the correct time by tomorrow ...famous last words.

marcus1971

Hey, its your first attempt at anything like this and its still working...... I'm sure there have been plenty of students at watchmaking school that have buggered up watch movements well past their first lesson, nothing to worry about, it works now and with a bit of fine tuning will only get better.

peasant

marcus1971 wrote: »

Hey, its your first attempt at anything like this and its still working......

I'm pretty sure that this has more to do with the sturdiness of Russian movements than my "skills" :D:D

peasant

Well ... this whole thread is slowly turning into a blog. Today's heading ...the watch is dead, long live the watch

Came back to it in the morning and it had stopped during the night (even though fully wound). Gave it a gentle shake and it started working again, but ran slowly, like on half power. Opened the caseback, wriggled the assembly, wriggled the stem and it sped up. Closed caseback and it stopped. After several re-alignments it was running properly again ...but only in certain postions. Tilt it a bit and it would slow down or stop altogether.
So I decided to take the movement out and put it back into it's old case to release any stress that I had put on it.

The thought behind that is as follows: As a pocket watch, the movement is held by the dial on one side and pulled tight by the fixing screws on the other, so there is a bit of pull on the whole assembly
As a wristwatch the caseback pushes down on the fixing screws which in turn push on the movement which pushes on the dial and against the rim of the top glass ...so the whole thing is under pressure with a potential stem mis-alignment putting further pressure on the geartrain.

So ...out comes the whole thing, back into the pocket watch ...off with the hands, off with the dial to have a look at the keyless works to hopefully find out why moving the stem sometimes moves the second hand sideways. Sadly no answer to that question ...nothing much to be seen there without taking it further apart (which I'm not going to do)

By now the movment is mimicking a Dodo. Giving the blance wheel a gentle push will produce a few ticks and it stops again. No matter which posistion I hold it in, no matter how much I play with the stem ...two three turns of the balance wheel is all I get.

Frustration mounts and I show it to my wife. Now the weird thing happens ...just as we both utter the words "you might have to take it to a watchmaker in the end", the next push on the balance produces five ticks, another one again produces some more, another gentle shake and now the movment is back running.

I have NO IDEA what's going on here ...but currently the watch is sitting here in its old case (no hands on it) and is ticking away happily in all positions. For the time being I'm putting my faith into the power of mechanical self-healing

I'll let it run off a full charge or two ...by then hopefully any misaligned gears will have re-aligned themselves and I'll start the next attempt at re-casing this thing.

I will build that wristwatch if it kills me !!!


Oh ..and there is a positive side effect to this whole malaise as well ...by now I can pop casebacks, release stems and unseat / reseat hands (includding that fiddly second hand) almost blindfold

marcus1971

peasant wrote: »

...by now I can pop casebacks, release stems and unseat / reseat hands (includding that fiddly second hand) almost blindfold

The learning curve is pretty steep and can be expensive with the cost of movements etc., can also be a slow process - finding parts on eBay or wherever, buying them, waiting for delivery, realising they aren't compatible and start the process over again.... but reallly, especially the part about the seconds hand, did you really think you would ever be able to make that statement only a couple of days ago?

peasant

marcus1971 wrote: »

.... but reallly, especially the part about the seconds hand, did you really think you would ever be able to make that statement only a couple of days ago?

nope ..but then I didn't expect that I would get so much "practice" :D:D


Btw ...easiest way to handle and seat this particular hand is to take a trusty old cocktail stick, wet its tip at the tip of your tongue and pick up the seconds hand from the top, right in the centre at the bush and seat it on the shaft. A bit more pushing with the tip of the cocktail stick and it's done.

Not quite orthodox watchmaking perhaps, but works a treat.

peasant

bedlam wrote: »

Do it! Some inspiration, albeit on a slightly different level.

You may have noticed the glaring lack of pictures in this thread so far
That's because once I get stuck into the watch I'm too bloody busy (frustrated / angry) to be worrying myself about decent pictures on top of it all ..so nope ...I'm not going to do a blog, too much like hard work. (nobody READS blogs, do they ...they all look at the pics)

Deep Thought

Personally, right now, I would revert back to Plan B

peasant wrote: »

I could also save myself all the trouble and just buy this:

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Rare-MOLNIJA-STATE-QUALITY-MARK-of-the-USSR-large-wristwatch-1970s-/280735620771?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item415d259ea3

a rather "interesting" conversion ...looks like a hunter case pocket watch movement and dial were housed in an open face case that was turned by 90 degrees and had some lugs soldered on

peasant

Today has been a really shyte day in work, so I'm allowing myself a break from getting annoyed and leave the watch alone for this evening

The good news is ... The "self healing" seems to be working. The watch is still happily ticking away. It has stopped twice so far, but the intervals between stoppages are getting longer and it's running off more and more of its power reserve while ticking at the same beat rate as my other (perfectly working) pocket watch. So there is hope yet.

The plan for the next step is to shimmy up the inside of the movement ring with glued-on metal bits so that the ring sits flush on the collar of the movement, above the stem, where it really belongs.

That way the clamping pressure from the caseback should be distributed evenly across the whole movement instead of being chanelled through two screws only. That way the whole movement will hopefully not get distorted that much again.

Should have really done it this way right from the beginning but I was too tempted by the quick bodge (and the instant gratification of seeing the "finished" watch)

Will find out in a few days if this theory is sound and if the new approach works better ...but ...not tonight Josephine

Bullseye1

This must be Wolverine's watch.

peasant

I've discovered another flaw in my approach ...the stem.

I got a replacment Molnija stem with a long thread (which by the way fits the crown that came with the case perfectly) which you have to cut to the right length yourself. Because I did not want to cut it too short and because I only have a very crude wire cutter to do the cutting with, I gave myself plenty of safety margin and the stem is currently too long by about 2 mm. (I intended to to the fine filing down work once the watch was assembled and working)

In principle this is no problem, as a push on the crown on the pocket watch also pops the lid, so there is room in the movement for the stem to slide inside, and more than 2 mm at that.

However, I overlooked the fact that on the pocket watch there also is a spring that pulls the stem back into the normal winding position once the lid is open and you let go of the crown.

The Wolverine movement (I like that name) is currently self-healing in yet another case, that of the dead watch which is an open faced pocket watch without the lid (and therefore with a shorter stem originally). But the movement has it's original long stem attached, in this case without the spring though (because that's part of the case and not the movement).

So I'm holding Wolverine to my ear, changing orientation to hear if it ticks evenly in all positions ...and as I do so the long, unsupported stem flops in and out of the movement. Well ...the movement certainly ticks a lot healthier with the stem in its correct position, its sound distinctly changes when the stem is fully in for a while.

So I suspect that while the movement was designed to allow for the movement of the longer stem, it certainly wasn't designed to have the stem fully pushed in for long times (doesn't take long to pop open a pocketwatch, now does it?).

Next item on the agenda before completing the assembly then would be ...file stem to correct length.

Deep Thought

LOL....

peasant

Deep Thought wrote: »

LOL....

all I've go to say is this:

marcus1971

Bullseye1 wrote: »

This must be Wolverine's watch.

hahaha, was thinking maybe its catching up on some Odinsleep, be right as rain tomorrow

Deep Thought

Maybe of some use

http://www.eta.ch/swisslab/2892a2/2892a2.html

http://www.eta.ch/swisslab/7750/7750.html

Also check out

http://clockmaker.com.au/

When you sign up, he is doing a kind on course , he sends out mail telling you how to do things etc...

peasant

minor update ...

I'm still not winning.

All of the above about twisted movements and too long stems still holds true ...but that has since been fixed and I still can't get it right.

The problem is the dial:

- it's to small by a fraction of a mm and doesn't sit right on the (very narrow) ledge above the glass. The sligthest misalignment and one edge slips down and the other rides up and the whole assembly sits at an angle. A slightly wider ring to extend the ledge is not an option, as it would bring the movement up too high and cause stem misalignment. A homemeade ring around the ledge (thin wire) to stop one edge from riding up did bring some relief, but hasn't stopped this from happening completely.

- the dial is loose. It having been affixed with double sided tape allows it to move ever so slightly against the movement ...if it does, one or more hands pop off.

- the dial is plastic, hence it flexes ...again, the slightest movement and hands go pop.

Experiments with all sorts of shims on the movement ring have had mixed results, none of them perfect. The best performer at the moment is a home made movement ring, cut from the lid of a milk bottle (of all things):D

But ...as do want this watch with this dial, unless I have a brainwave in the next few days, I think I'll have to capitulate and consult an expert with proper tools (i.e. a watchmaker) to get a very thin rehaute and a perfectly fitting movement ring made to measure.

Home made bodging with inadequate tools and scrap materials just doesn't seem to cut it as I can't get the dimensions as exact as they need to be. (the fact that my digital calipers refuses to work doesn't help)