Rewiring Electric security shutters

Calibos

We've a shop with electric security shutters. When they were fitted the only way out of the premises after closing was through the front door. Thus the contractor did not fit a switch inside the premises but fitted one of those up/down/self center off Key switches. ie. you insert the key and turn the key anti clockwise to lower the shutters and clockwise to raise the shutters. Its spring loaded so the key/lock returns to centre-off when you let go/pull the key out.

I few years ago we purchased the house next door to our business and now have access to the shop via the backdoors of the respective properties. However with no changes to the electric shutters we still need to close them from the outside of the shop and walk back around to the front door of the house. It would improve convenience and security if we could close the shutters from inside the shop and just enter/exit from the rear of the properties.

Inside the shop there is this junction box where the cables from the shutters' electric motor are joined to the cables coming from the key operated switch mounted in the outside wall of the premises.



My assumptions are that this is a 230v as opposed to a 12v motor because of the earth? Would that be right I am also assuming that the 230v mains feed goes to the key operated switch first and is ducted internally in the wall because all the cabling I see goes between the motor, the junction box and the switch.

The 4 core cable coming from the motor has the white sheath and has a brown,black,grey and yellow/green earth conductors. The two grey sheathed cables and the separate earth cable all go through the wall to the key/switch location. One is single core with a blue conductor. The aforementioned separate earth and the last cable is 2 core with brown conductors and with an uninsulated solid core wire that has been wrapped in green/yellow tape but is not connected to anything.

Can anyone make sense of this?

Can I wire a self centering switch to this and still be able to use the key operated switch outside. If so can you recommend a switch and tell me where I could get one.

Or do I/can I wire a mains plug from a socket inside the premises to the new switch and the cables from that switch then join the motor cables at this junction box. ie both internal switch and external key switch would have separate power feeds. Is that dangerous, could I make the key switch casing outside live?

I've wired 12v switches before and mains lights and new mains sockets but that usually involved less wires! I guess I don't know enough to know whether this is one of those cases where its easier than it looks or harder than it looks

Any help is much appreciated

DublinDilbert

If it's the same as my roller shutter, it's got two live wires going to it, one to raise another to lower. Thats why a four core cable is used.

You could fit another switch inside, but it would need to wired in such a way that both switches cant be actuated at once. Possibly a 3 way switch, middle position feeds power to the outside one. Switch needs to be able to take the full load of the motor....

Calibos

DublinDilbert wrote: »

If it's the same as my roller shutter, it's got two live wires going to it, one to raise another to lower. Thats why a four core cable is used.

You could fit another switch inside, but it would need to wired in such a way that both switches cant be actuated at once. Possibly a 3 way switch, middle position feeds power to the outside one. Switch needs to be able to take the full load of the motor....

I've no access to the power going to the outside one. I've only access to the wires coming from the outside switch to the junction box and on to the motor.

I know it would be a lot easier just to take a mains feed from an internal plug to a new inside switch and on to the motor and take the outside Key switch out of the loop altogether but unfortunately there are a limited set of circumstances where we would still want to use the Key switch outside.

I can't imagine a scenario where one person would be outside turning the key switch at the same time as someone inside operating the internal switch because both people would be literally 2 feet away from each other with a window in between them!! What would happen if they did both try to operate the shutter at the same time?

DublinDilbert

You do have access to the power going to the outside switch, it must be coming from inside the building!

This can be done lots of different ways, relays, 3 way switch... You could also instal a remote control unit, lots of these available with relay outputs.

Calibos

DublinDilbert wrote: »

You do have access to the power going to the outside switch, it must be coming from inside the building!

This can be done lots of different ways, relays, 3 way switch... You could also instal a remote control unit, lots of these available with relay outputs.

I meant lack of access without digging into plaster and/or masonry. I was hoping I could do something that just involved a rewire of/ tapping into the pictured junctionbox

evosteo

just posting a (crude) picture i jus threw together on ms paint real quick, so you can understand what cables are needed and where for it to happen, you can parallel of the roller up and roller down from the junction box, however you need to find where the live feed is to the outside key switch is coming from and try get a link off it to the internal key switch,
you will also need a link from the earth as the key switches are usually made from metal,

as soon as you have them 4 cables at your new switch location you should be able to operate the roller door from inside the shop and outside

evosteo

Calibos wrote: »

I've no access to the power going to the outside one. I've only access to the wires coming from the outside switch to the junction box and on to the motor.

I know it would be a lot easier just to take a mains feed from an internal plug to a new inside switch and on to the motor and take the outside Key switch out of the loop altogether but unfortunately there are a limited set of circumstances where we would still want to use the Key switch outside.

I can't imagine a scenario where one person would be outside turning the key switch at the same time as someone inside operating the internal switch because both people would be literally 2 feet away from each other with a window in between them!! What would happen if they did both try to operate the shutter at the same time?

if for example the shop was supplied by 3 phase and the switch feeds where on two seperate phases you would get an awful bang with electrocution and possible death,

be advised it is very very dangerous if you do not know what you are doing

DublinDilbert

I've attached an image of how i'd do it with a 3 position switch.

I'm sure if you look around you'll find the live going to the outside switch, i'd be very surprised if its not tucked away in the junction box you've shown.

Bruthal

evosteo wrote: »

if for example the shop was supplied by 3 phase and the switch feeds where on two seperate phases you would get an awful bang with electrocution and possible death,

be advised it is very very dangerous if you do not know what you are doing

Well assuming the second one is looped from the first as in your drawing, the same problem still exists, one switch could be trying to lower the shutter, while the other is trying to raise it.

If the shutter motor setup has no interlocking provision besides limit switches, a relay can be used with a N/C contact, as an electrical interlock. The up feed leaving the junction box to the motor could power this relay, while the down feed goes through the same relays N/C contact.

To ensure its fail-safe, a DPDT relay can be used, with the N/C contact of one pole in the down leg, and the other pole N/O contact in the up leg, and the up leg terminal of JB energises the relay, so even if the relay fails, both up and down cant be live to the motor together. So when up is selected, this energises the relay, closing the up contact, and away it goes. If down is selected, the relay stays as is, and shutter goes down.

If one switch is set to up, and the other is set to down at the same time, only the up will work. And up would over-ride if the shutter is going down.

I thought myself the shutter would of had forward/reverse contactors controlling it anyway, which would or should have interlocking anyway.

Calibos

Yiz lost me at 'Relay'.

Right So. Looks like a job for a professional !! Thanks lads.

Bruthal

It will work without the relay idea. That is just a method to eliminate the possibility of both up and down being on together if the existing shutter setup has no interlocking in it.

evosteo

robbie7730 wrote: »

It will work without the relay idea. That is just a method to eliminate the possibility of both up and down being on together if the existing shutter setup has no interlocking in it.

the roller door will remain static if both up and down signals are sent,

it can only take one signal at atime

up or down

Calibos

evosteo wrote: »

just posting a (crude) picture i jus threw together on ms paint real quick, so you can understand what cables are needed and where for it to happen, you can parallel of the roller up and roller down from the junction box, however you need to find where the live feed is to the outside key switch is coming from and try get a link off it to the internal key switch,
you will also need a link from the earth as the key switches are usually made from metal,

as soon as you have them 4 cables at your new switch location you should be able to operate the roller door from inside the shop and outside

I studied the circuit diagram again and tbh I can't understand how I decided earlier that it was looking to hard for me. Brain Fart I guess. That diagram is literally whats there already. I just have to find the Live to the outside key switch as you say and and run a wire from the terminal it connects to at that key switch to my new switch and then run two wires from the new switch to the junction box where the motor live cables are connected. DOH

BTW, I never said I was going to use another Key operated switch for the inside switch. I was thinking of one of those spring loaded self centering (centre off) rocker switches. If I mount this switch in a plastic casing I presume I don't need to tie into the earth for this internal switch??

Another Homer Simpson moment was when the penny dropped after rereading your post and relooking at the diagram. ie. I don't have to tie into the live before the outside keyswitch and thus need to find the cable somewhere along its route from the distribution box, I just need to widen the hole where the cables for the switch from the junction box go through the wall and tie into the actual live input terminal at the back of the Key switch. Its basically all there in you guys posts, I just couldn't see the wood for the trees for a while there.

So whats the correct name for the kind of switch I want and what rating does it need? 20 amps? For the cable for the new switch I presume I can use the same type of 4 core flex that goes to the motor. ie. I don't need the heavy duty stuff you would wire a new socket with??? Am I also correct in presuming that I can't know with brown live wire from the key switch is up or down so that when I wire in my new rocker switch I just have to test it first and watch the shutters to see where I place my up arrow and down arrow stickers

Can I confirm that the consensus is that with evosteos circuit which seems the easiest to implement, that the worst that can happen is that in the unlikely scenario where the person at the inside switch and the person with the key at the outside switch fail to notice each other 2ft away on the other side of a clear glass window and both try to operate the shutter at the same time, that if both operate their respective switches at the same time, if they both select UP, the shutter goes up, if they both select down the shutters go down and if one selects up and one selects down, that the motor does nothing? Or is worst case scenario with this circuit that the motor would burn out?? I presume the Electrocution and death scenario was only in relation to my question in the first post about a second mains feed from a socket inside.

evosteo

i recomend you use a key switch for security reasons

Calibos

For my next question, I was going to ask about moving a 4 gang light switch that operates inside lights, outside lights and 2 overhead fans. This is on a wall behind the shutters when they are down. Obviously the assumption was if the shutters were down you were gone so why would you need to leave the lights on or access the switch till you opened the shop. Well like with the shutters, after moving next door we now often restock after hours and would like to leave the lights on inside while the shutters are down. To turn the lights off when we finish we poke a very thin piece of metal through the shutter mesh to flick the inside light switch.

Well fear not!! Dumbo here just thought of something he should have thought of years ago. Dremel a hole in the mush shutter about the size of a 2 euro coin in front of the appropriate switch. Its like the old story about NASA spending millions on developing a pen and ink that worked in zero gravity while the Russians decided to use........a Pencil

Calibos

evosteo wrote: »

i recomend you use a key switch for security reasons

Forgot to mention that the shutters are inside the premises behind the windows and not on the outside closing in front of them.

All employees are family and I was kind of thinking that it might actually be a handy security feature that one could very quickly press a button and close the shutter enough to prevent the shop door opening (ie door would only open 3 or 4 inches and hit the shutter) For example if we saw a big dodgy gang about to come in, or trouble outside about to spill into the shop or indeed someone crossing the road towards the shop with something in hand behind the back and scarf and hoody pulled up around the face. Its happened and although I could literally see it happening in slow motion, I couldn't get the keys out and out to the door to lock it in time. Thankfully it was just a fist behind his back and after a struggle he left empty handed.

evosteo

the reason i say to use the key switch is because you only want the "key holder" to be able to operate the roller shutter, and not any joe blogg or even a theif.

even kids in the shop could mess around with it,

anybody could operate a rocker switch,

may cost a few quid more but its peace of mind at the end of the day

evosteo

you could always locate the switch behind the service counter:rolleyes:

Calibos

Ok, I'll be the first to admit that I've had a few Homer Simpson moments in this thread already but you didn't think I was going to mount the rocker beside the door did you?! I always intended to undermount it behind the counter beside where the panic button is. I should have made that clear from the beginning, Sorry

Finding the live feed to the outside Key switch has become a problem again though. When I was back on duty tonight I had a look again and the switch cables from the junction box run into the wall on the inside about 3ft higher than the switch on the outside. The switch is mounted in solid masonry about a foot to the right of the inside cables too. It looks like I'll have to dig out more plaster than I thought to try and find the live. Now either the live is coming down from the ceiling void in which case an exploratory hole in the ceiling might find it or I wonder if its coming up from from a double wall socket thats in that same corner but down low. If I pop the cover off the double socket, would I be right in thinking that if I see 2 lives wired into the back of the plug, that this second live is the one that runs up the wall towards the Switch or could that just be a spur?

evosteo

try and isolate what circuit the roller door is on at the distribution board,

when found run a new cable from the circuit breaker straight to the new switch,

run you parallel up and down signal cable from the junction box over or dircetly from the motor, what ever one is easier and neater

remember to run a 1.5mm earth from the distribution board also

dont try dig around the wall looking for the live feed, you couldbe knocking lumps out of the wall all day trying to get it right, safe and neat

evosteo

If I pop the cover off the double socket, would I be right in thinking that if I see 2 lives wired into the back of the plug, that this second live is the one that runs up the wall towards the Switch or could that just be a spur?

not always the case as it could be a ring circuit or a radial link,

maybe if you see 3 live wires

have a look and see,only if you feel compatent enough

do not work on any live cabeles

Bruthal

evosteo wrote: »

try and isolate what circuit the roller door is on at the distribution board,

when found run a new cable from the circuit breaker straight to the new switch,

I wouldnt be a fan of running 2 seperate cables from an MCB to the same actual circuit. Maybe its just me though. It would be like a ring main except its not a socket circuit.

DublinDilbert

robbie7730 wrote: »

I wouldnt be a fan of running 2 seperate cables from an MCB to the same actual circuit. Maybe its just me though. It would be like a ring main except its not a socket circuit.

Good point!

I'd say the live going to the outside switch is easily accesable, probably hidden above a false ceiling, it shouldn't be too hard to find once you know where the wires come into the building.

Calibos

Found the Key switch online Its branded Orion. Here is a link

http://www.ese.sk/englishversion/key-switchA.html

There are two that look like my shutter switch. with up and down arrows on the casing One is the AP1 - 2T that says:

Two way momentary
CLOSE - OPEN one pole
Key removable after contacting in center position

....and the other identical looking one is the AP1 - 2R that says:

One way maintained
CLOSE - OPEN one pole
Key removable after contacting in center position

This new information combined with the fact that believe or not I got to have a very quick chat with the building contractor(sparks himself) this morning who renovated the shop over a decade ago and installed the shutter. He was in a rush but even after I said I wanted to install a rockerswitch inside without disabling the outside keyswitch and started to ask him about whether the live to the switch might have come from the ceiling above or the wall below, he interupted me and said something about not needing to access the cables to the switch at all and I could wire the switch into the lives going from the junction box to the motor!!?? He rushed off before further clarification.

Does any of this new information chance our assumptions about how the circuit is wired?

Calibos

He was in again this morning! He said live, neutral, common and earth to motor, limiter on motors and to parallel new rocker into wires going to motor. He had to dash before telling me exactly what to do. If that all makes sense can you guys clarify exactly what I need to do? I got lucky but I probably won't see him again for another few months.

Calibos

Looks like the boys have given up on me as a lost cause

Bruthal

Calibos wrote: »

He was in again this morning! He said live, neutral, common and earth to motor, limiter on motors and to parallel new rocker into wires going to motor. He had to dash before telling me exactly what to do. If that all makes sense can you guys clarify exactly what I need to do? I got lucky but I probably won't see him again for another few months.

Yea if you use a 2 way momentary rocker, you just connect it in the same was as evosteo`s drawing shows the second key switch connected.

Live supply of existing keyswitch (that you cant find at the moment) into the common of the 2 way rocker, and then L1 and L2 from the 2 way rocker into the up/down feeds to the motor.

Calibos

What's confusing me now is that the contractor who did the shop who I got a chance to ask about this twice before he rushed off. I'm pretty sure he said I don't have to go near the wiring of the keyswitch outside. ie. I don't need to find the live going to the outside switch. He is saying I can do what I want from the junction box and tying into the motor cables???

Bruthal

Well looking at the junction box in the photo, it looks exactly like eveosteo has it in the drawing. But no matter what that junction box in the photo is doing, ti connect a new key switch or 2 way momentary rocker, the junction box would need a live feed, and the up-down wires in it. And along with neutral and earth, this means 5 connectors.

The fact it has 4 means it is highly likely its like evosteo`s drawing, which to be honest, looks spot on, and so it cant be done from the junction box alone.

The 2 out from the new rocker/key switch would go into the 2 connectors in the junction box, but the common of the rocker needs the feed, exactly like his drawing shows the feed looped from the first switch.

evosteo

open the external key switch and try find the cable that is located at the common,

see if you can trace its route back inside

also are you 100% sure that the live feed is not located close to/beside the junction box?

for any second switch to work it will require a live feed.

the contractor may not have been thinking clearly as he was in a rush

maybe even print off the circuit and show it to him and he maybe able to tell you where the easiest point is to take a link from the live feed

Calibos

Ok, I was back on the Orion Keyswitch lock site. I already outlined the information beside the two possible models a few posts back.

However, I browsed the other sections of the site and my eye was drawn to their 'Venetian Blind' switches because I've a home project involving Venetians in mind for the future. Anyway all the these switches had 'Roller Shutters' in brackets in the description.

I read the info bside these switches and it says,

Surface rotary switch for venetian blinds (roller shutters) with knob
two-directional tip function (automatic return to zero position), single pole, with N- and E-terminals

Neutral and earth terminals only??? Does that not tie in with what the contractor said and the wires coming out of the wall?

Remember the White insulated/sheathed 4 core cable with Brown,black,grey and earth wires goes to the motor. Everything else goes into the wall. ie. Single core Grey insulated/sheathed with blue wire, T&E(2 brown wires and uninsulated earth which is wrapped in tape and not connected to anything), and finally a green/yellow insulated/sheathed single core earth.

ie could the Single core Neutral and Single Core earth be heading off to the Orion Keyswitch and its the T&E heading off to the Distribution Board?