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Rewiring Electric security shutters
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Can I begin this post by saying all of you lads have been amazingly helpful....and patient!
Heres a wiring diagram I found for what looks similar to our outside keyswitch. Its on the last page(bottom) of the PDF - http://www.farnboroughblinds.com/SHUTTER%20ELECTRIC%20FIXING.pdf
I thought myself what the contractor said didn't sound right but not being an electrician, I thought, what do I know!
When he said you don't need to 'go near' the switch outside, maybe how he meant it was like all 3 of you guys described in your diagrams. ie. Intercepting the live to the switch, he just forgot to say it in the rush he has been in.
Is DublinDilberts method the best one to go for because it automatically cuts the live feed to the outside switch when the inside switch is operated? Surely if I need to find the live to the outside switch regardless of what way I do it, then DublinDilberts is as easy as Evosteo's? Is there pro's or cons for one or the other that I am not undertanding?
As for finding the Live to the outside switch. I can't check under the floorboards upstairs because there is a built in kitchen over the corner of the shop where the shutter wiring and switch are located downstairs in the shop. Theres a good chance thats how the cables get from the Distribution Board to that location cause there is a sh!tload of cables exiting the Distribution Board in the back room of the shop up into the ceiling/joist space
I guess I can at least eliminate a feed off the nearest double socket by plugging a lamp into that socket, flipping all the trip switches till the lamp goes off and then trying to operate the shutter.
However thats my only easy option. Everything else involves too much destruction, be it digging out walls or lifting flooring/dismantling kitchens in the flat upstairs.
That just leaves the Distribution Board as the next easiest location to find the cables for the shutter. Is it likely that the shutter has its own dedicated trip switch on the Distribution Board. If it does then I assume I am good to go to splice in the live for the new switch there otherwise when operated the inside switch might cut power to sockets or god knows what. (Actually is that one of the cons to DublinDilberts schematic? ?
Am I in a bit of a bind. Evosteos method doesn't knock anything else off if the shutter trip switch in the Distribution Board is shared but it creates a ring main or whatever you guys said. Dublindilberts makes concurrent operation of inside/outside switch impossible but would cut power to any sockets that share the same circuit.
What if its on the lighting circuit? 0 -
Right, had an opportunity to start flipping trip switches tonight. Labeled everything as I went along.
Bad news - Turns out that the shutter seems to share a trip switch with the Fire Alarm but nothing else that I could discern. ie. nothing else important seemed to lose power
Good News - The fire Alarm box is beside the Distribution Board and I can trace the Fire alarm L and N and see that they are wired into the trip switch rather than on a connection block god knows where. I've marked the trip with Red marker. You can see the red live from the fire alarm wired in alongside the Live heading off to the Shutter.
Heres the Black Neutral from the Fire Alarm
So I guess from here the steps are:
Follow the Live from the trip switch out of the Distribution Board to a convenient location where there is room to do the splice and connection block. A 2 brown wire t&e from the connection block to the inside shutter switch location (what gauge??) DublinDilberts circuit and switch.
Would this diagram I've drawn be right?
BTW, none of your diagrams showed the Earth and Neutral going to the new switch but I think Evosteo did say 'don't forget to run an earth back to the distributionboard'??? I thought I only needed an earth for the new switch if it was a metal keyswitch? Do I still need to run an earth from the new switch if its the rocker in a plastic casing?
...and speaking of switches. Can someone link me/send me in the right direction to the kind of Switch Dublin Dilbert mentioned
Again...Thanks a million guys. You stuck with me. Very much appreciated!! 0 -
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can you explain why you have two live wires "T+E from connector block to new internal switch" goin to the new switch?????
Was that not DublinDilberts method whereby the centre/off position of the new inside switch sent power to the outside switch but if you used the inside switch the power was cut to the outside switch by default thereby ruling out the chance of both switches being operated at the same time.
Like I asked in a previous post, if there are more Cons for this way and more Pros for your way then I'd go with your way.
Because I only have access to the live for the outside switch at the Distributionboard this is where I would need to splice in with a connection block, ie. just outside the Distributionboard and before the cable runs up into the ceiling. (2x brown)T&E from here to the switch. One wire carries the live to the new switch, the other wire carries the live back from the Centre/Off switch position back to the connectionblock where it feeds the live that runs off into the ceiling to the outside switch. Another run of (2xbrown)T&E from the UP/Down new switch contacts goes of to the junctionbox to meet the outside switch and motor up/down lives.0 -
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That was my next question I am assuming I still want a self centering switch as I guess even with limiters on the motor its not a good idea for the Up or down to be left on (The outside keyswitch wouldn't work for one thing ) So what do you call and where would you get a self centering rocker with the contacts required for this mode of operation? 0
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heres the 2 gang switch method dilbert was mentioning.
draw backs with it being when outside at the key switch if the internal one is not set to outside it will not work
also the internal switch up/down roller door controls will depend on the roller door limit switches to turn the signal from the switch off.
thinking about it
you could use one single 1 gang switch and one rocker switch mounter beside each other, that would sort that,
but i dont know of any switch for the other issue
maybe a push button with a normally open and normally closed contact that had to be pushed the same time as the internal rocker switch been operated,
the cable from the normally open switch to the internal rocker switch and the external cable to the normally closed switch,
that way then the external switch will always have priority, unless the internal switch is to be used:cool:0 -
this is what i had just been thinking of
find an rocker switch to suit above, shouldnt be too hard,
then get this push button switch with no/nc contacts. http://radionics.rs-online.com/web/p/enclosed-push-button/3993983/
mount it in this beside the rocker switch and wire to diagram
jus make sure the rating of the push button switch is sufficient to the load of the roller door motor
that should be that:cool:0 -
I've been thinking about this and I came up with the following. You have to try to imagine it in 3 dimensions.
Basically when not being operated a spring pushes the hand knob up to contact the top arc shaped contacts to send the live to the keyswitch. Physical stoppers prevent the knob and thus the contact bar inside the casing rotating beyond the bounds of the keyswitch arc contacts. ie if you aren't pushing down on the dial/knob the keyswitch outside is powered no matter what position you left the dial in. (I'd mark detents on the switch casing and dial so people hopefully would recenter the dial but it doesn't matter if they don't)
When you want to operate the shutters from inside, you press down on the knob/dial and now the contact bar bridges the lower live arc contact and either the up or down shutter live contacts depending on which way you turned the dial. When shutter is down, you let go, the spring pushes the knob/dial up, you recentre the dial (hey maybe I can figure a way to spring load that too) and now the outside keyswitch is active again.
Heres a very simple crappy drawing to try and convey the idea.
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I've been thinking about this and I came up with the following. You have to try to imagine it in 3 dimensions.
Basically when not being operated a spring pushes the hand knob up to contact the top arc shaped contacts to send the live to the keyswitch. Physical stoppers prevent the knob and thus the contact bar inside the casing rotating beyond the bounds of the keyswitch arc contacts. ie if you aren't pushing down on the dial/knob the keyswitch outside is powered no matter what position you left the dial in. (I'd mark detents on the switch casing and dial so people hopefully would recenter the dial but it doesn't matter if they don't)
When you want to operate the shutters from inside, you press down on the knob/dial and now the contact bar bridges the lower live arc contact and either the up or down shutter live contacts depending on which way you turned the dial. When shutter is down, you let go, the spring pushes the knob/dial up, you recentre the dial (hey maybe I can figure a way to spring load that too) and now the outside keyswitch is active again.
Heres a very simple crappy drawing to try and convey the idea.
your crazy if you go to all that trouble ,the solution to you question is in my post above, no need to try invent ur own switch running the risk or electricution to yourself and others, but its all up to you.0 -
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