Would you abort a child with Down Syndrome?

The Corinthian

harr wrote: »

Not all die young,any down syndrome child born today can expect to live into there 60's and most dont live any harder lives than the rest of us do..Many other syndromes and conditions have a lot lower life span than DS.

It would however be correct to say that in the vast majority of cases they would require care and pretty much always require financial assistance for their entire lives, regardless of length, though.

This is important because while the parents may choose to make the sacrifice to care for such a child, they do tend to pre-decease them (not to mention grow old enough that they require care themselves). At which point, who ends up taking care of the child? If an only child and it has been provided for in the parent's estate, then this should not be an issue.

But if not? Are the siblings, or other close relatives to pay the price for the parent's choice? Or failing that, society?

I'll give two Real World examples. The first is of someone I know who's sister has DS. He's been trapped in the family business, especially now that his father has retired and has saved very little pension (due to the cost of care for the sister). Eventually when his parents die, all they have will go to continue this care, including ownership of the family business. He now will have to continue to contribute towards her care, to the detriment of his own family, and can never leave the family business because both his retired parents and sister are financially dependant upon income from it.

Another example is a couple, who were both blind, as a result of the same genetic disorder. The disorder in hereditary. They have two children, both also blind and want to have more. All are completely dependant on social welfare.

The implicit message from the above examples not a very 'nice' one to hear, I know, but if one does not, then one can fall into the trap of believing that the choice to have or keep such a child affects no one other than themselves and that child. In reality it doesn't.

Max Power1

I certainly would (well my partner would )
We have discussed this already, and both came to the same conclusion. We do not think its fair to know that a child could be born with such a disability, and dont think that we want to be burdened with such a disability to look after for the rest of our lives.

I obviously respect the people who feel the opposite regarding this matter, but its just not for me.

Casey78

itac wrote: »

I honestly think that this is a decision that people will really only cope with if it ever happens to them. Personally, I don't think I could have an abortion, be the child healthy and just arriving at a bad time in my life, or if the child has DS/something else. That's just me though, and that could change.

My older sister Bairbre has Downs. There are so many times in her life that she has wished she hadn't been "afflicted" (her words...) or born with it. There are many times in my life where I've wished for her not to have been born with it. There are still times when I want a big sister I can go out on the town with, one who people don't mistake me as a carer for, a sister I didn't have to "babysit" when I was a teenager, a sister who could have a boyfriend (or a girlfriend if she'd wanted!), who could've had kids....I wanted, and still want, so much in life for her.

Yet, had she been born without Downs, then I, and my family's life would've been so different. Sometimes, it's felt like she's the glue that keeps us all together, she's so honest about her emotions, if she's sad or teary, she'll just come right out with it. If she's annoyed, she'll swear like a trooper, and lose the head. If she's happy, or she gets a fit of giggles, it's one of the funniest sounds and sights, and it lifts my soul every time. She's unintentionally taught me patience, love, kindness....basically...how to live!

As several posters have said, it's difficult to generalise people with Downs, as there can be so many different mental levels of maturity for people born with it. My sister can seem like 12 year old some days, mood pending, and other times, she can be the 32 year old she actually is.

From a parental perspective....when she was born, she was baptised then and there, as they thought she wouldn't make it. She almost died several times as a young child, with my Dad having to resuscitate her on the bed once. She had a stroke over ten years ago, and that really slowed her up a lot mentally, although physically she's in ok form. But my parents aged overnight that day, and I wouldn't wish what they've had to go through with her in life on anyone. They are amazing people.

We're lucky in that she's pretty self-sufficient, but it's only natural to worry what she'll do when they're gone, and I guess it's something that everyone who has someone dependent on them has to worry about. I often say I wouldn't change her for the world, but I also often wonder would she say the same about herself?

Anyhoo, them's my (very long-winded!) two cents....

Great post.
As a parent of a DS child myself I can say that it really isn't all the doom and gloom life many are making it out to be.
Sure there are tough times but same goes with raising any child.
We have a few more visits to Crumlin hospital than most parents but it's not that big of an issue really.

There are a lot of posters here making wild assumptions about what's it like to raise a DS child, there are some very ignorant and uninformed views beIng expressed.

How anyone knows what having a child with DS is like without ever having lived with a child or person with DS is bafflIng.

Believe me when I say having a child with DS is not the end of the world, he is no more a burden or an expense than any of my other kids and I love him to bits the same as my other kids.

Do I wish he didn't have DS?? Yes of course I do every single day but no one wants anything to be "wrong" with their kids.

Anyway that's just my two cents worth, at least I have the experience to know what I'm talking about rather than some gob****e telling everyone how life with a DS child will be a burden on a family without them actually knowing what its like to live in a family with a DS person.

paddyandy

Definitely not . Something to haunt your sleep for years .

guitarzero

Wasnt there a time back in our barbaric, survival times that if a baby was a liability it anyway it was done away with? It had no value to offer the tribe so that was that.

I think it depends on the severity but I'd be inclined to abort.

The Corinthian

guitarzero wrote: »

Wasnt there a time back in our barbaric, survival times that if a baby was a liability it anyway it was done away with? It had no value to offer the tribe so that was that.

Infanticide was commonplace in the ancient World.

The Spartans would famously leave out their infants overnight and if they survived would be accepted, as a means to 'weed out' the weak in what was a very militaristic society.

Romans did not really consider children morally as 'people' until they were about 18 months old, and so infanticide was not uncommon - essentially they just threw them out with the rubbish. Typical reasons for doing this would include deformity (they were required by law to kill a severely deformed child), social (illegitimate births, for example) and sex selection. Brothels, excavated in the sites of roman towns and cities, can easily be identified by the mass 'grave' of infants that would be nearby.

As for who decided on infanticide, it varied from culture to culture. Patriarchal societies, such as Rome, it was the Pater Familias (who was not necessarily even the father). Celtic societies, it was the decision of the mother, I believe, and treated as a form of post-partum 'contraception'.

Christianity largely stamped out the practice, but it persisted in some Nordic cultures well into the middle ages. Notably Iceland received an exemption to the Christian ban on infanticide when they converted around the 11th century. Their logic was that Iceland was a very harsh environment that simply could not sustain too high a population and thus infanticide was practiced long after as a means of ensuring population control and survival.

Chinafoot

Casey78 wrote: »

Anyway that's just my two cents worth, at least I have the experience to know what I'm talking about rather than some gob****e telling everyone how life with a DS child will be a burden on a family without them actually knowing what its like to live in a family with a DS person.

And with all due respect, you are talking from your experience with your DS child. Not everyone is so fortunate that their DS child will be able to function in society independently. My friend has a DS sister who needs 24 hour care. She can't speak, she can't be left on her own and she is by no means the only DS person in the world like this.

I appreciate that this is an emotive topic and you clearly can't see beyond your own experience, but to call people ignorant and "gobshítes" is pretty loltastic from you tbh.

Bride2012

We don't have kids yet but have discussed our views on things like this before getting engaged Honestly, I think that I would. I don't think that I could cope with a child with DS. All I think of when I see a parent with kid with DS is 'please don't happen to me'. Ignorant, heartless, etc.? perhaps, but for me, it's true.

Casey78

Chinafoot wrote: »

And with all due respect, you are talking from your experience with your DS child. Not everyone is so fortunate that their DS child will be able to function in society independently. My friend has a DS sister who needs 24 hour care. She can't speak, she can't be left on her own and she is by no means the only DS person in the world like this.

I appreciate that this is an emotive topic and you clearly can't see beyond your own experience, but to call people ignorant and "gobshítes" is pretty loltastic from you tbh.

I'm talking from my experience and the hundreds of other familys I have met through groups like Down Syndrome Ireland.

Of course there is always bad cases but the generalization of everyone who has Down Syndrome and how the parents of kids with Down Syndrome cope by people who have no idea or no experience of whats it like is very ignorant.

Read back on some of the posts and you will see I'm right.

Casey78

Bride2012 wrote: »

We don't have kids yet but have discussed our views on things like this before getting engaged Honestly, I think that I would. I don't think that I could cope with a child with DS. All I think of when I see a parent with kid with DS is 'please don't happen to me'. Ignorant, heartless, etc.? perhaps, but for me, it's true.

I use to think the same as you though I would never have considered Abortion but believe me if it did happen to you you would cope.
I was devastated when my child was born and we were told he had DS,it nearly killed me.
Over time though and with a lot of support from people like Down Syndrome Ireland and my family etc I have come out the other side and my son has given me more joy than I could ever have imagined.
He has his problems more so than other kids but I love him more than life itself and would die for him.
Yes I am a little lucky insofar as he has mild enough learning difficulties and his muscle tone is also excellent for a child with DS but he does have it 100% and it does come with a unique set of problems but I have seen many a set of parents over the last few years and I have yet to meet one who hasn't come out the other side,not one who resents their child or feels their child is a burden or who can't cope.

Look at it this way,what if you had your perfect little baby and a year or two into their life you found out they had severe Autism,would you love your child any less? Or would you do everything you could to give your child the best life they could have.
Or what if they were in a accident and they got disfigured? Would you love them any less because they looked odd or not the "norm"?

As I said there is a lot of uninformed and very ignorant views on this thread.
Good luck to you all with your quest to have designer babies and I hope it doesn't take too many murders of unborn kids for you all to get the perfect baby you all desire.

Penny Dreadful

Casey78 wrote: »

I use to think the same as you though I would never have considered Abortion but believe me if it did happen to you you would cope.
I was devastated when my child was born and we were told he had DS,it nearly killed me.
Over time though and with a lot of support from people like Down Syndrome Ireland and my family etc I have come out the other side and my son has given me more joy than I could ever have imagined.
He has his problems more so than other kids but I love him more than life itself and would die for him.
Yes I am a little lucky insofar as he has mild enough learning difficulties and his muscle tone is also excellent for a child with DS but he does have it 100% and it does come with a unique set of problems but I have seen many a set of parents over the last few years and I have yet to meet one who hasn't come out the other side,not one who resents their child or feels their child is a burden or who can't cope.

Look at it this way,what if you had your perfect little baby and a year or two into their life you found out they had severe Autism,would you love your child any less? Or would you do everything you could to give your child the best life they could have.
Or what if they were in a accident and they got disfigured? Would you love them any less because they looked odd or not the "norm"?

As I said there is a lot of uninformed and very ignorant views on this thread.
Good luck to you all with your quest to have designer babies and I hope it doesn't take too many murders of unborn kids for you all to get the perfect baby you all desire.[/QUOTE]


To be fair I don't recall anyone wishing for a designer perfect baby. After all what is perfect? To one couple it may be their child is a musical genius, for another that they place on the county GAA team, for another it is simply that their child is their child.
I see nothing wrong with people being honest enough to say that they would consider terminating their pregnancy if they became aware of disabilities. Many people who chose to do this, are genuinely doing it in a selfless frame of mind whereby they are not inflicting a life of pain, hardship, sorrow, suffering, etc on their baby should it survive.
I know that many people live succesful lives with DS but there is no getting away from the fact that a DS child / adult will always need care and attention that children free from this (and a myriad of other disabilities) will not require. The child with DS will always be a dependent.
Inferring that people are murdering unborn children is unfair, unjust, overly emotive and factually incorrect. People are terminating a pregnancy, the foetus is not a baby.

Gandhi

We had both our babies tested in the womb for DS and a host of other genetic issues. We had decided we would NOT terminate the pregnancy regardless of the results long before we even got the results. We just wanted to know as soon as possible what issues we would have to deal with. Thankfully, neither of them had any issues.

Before we had kids, we always assumed we would be able to terminate the pregnancy if there was an issue, but once we found we were actually having a baby it became impossible to think of him as a foetus. We would have absolutely felt we were killing a baby, not "terminating a pregnancy". Part of it was probably because it was a planned pregnancy so we were already wondering if we were having a boy or a girl, thinking about names, colours to paint the baby's room etc. We had already heard the baby's heartbeat.

When we were waiting for the results for our second guy, I remember looking on message boards about genetic testing and one lady posted about how she had aborted her first baby because of DS, and now had just found her second baby had DS so was about to abort again. Her post was so casual and she ended it with something like, "Oh well, maybe third time will be the charm", as if she had lost a bidding war on e-Bay for a mountain bike. I was so repulsed by that I stopped reading online about genetic testing altogether.

There was a great article in the NY Times about a movement among DS parents to meet with parents-to-be who had received a DS diagnosis so they could actually meet a DS child to balance out the scary-sounding statistics that they would have read about once they got their diagnosis. According to the article, 90% of parents who get a DS diagnosis in the US currently abort.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/us/09down.html?pagewanted=all

Casey78

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Casey78 wrote: »

I use to think the same as you though I would never have considered Abortion but believe me if it did happen to you you would cope.
I was devastated when my child was born and we were told he had DS,it nearly killed me.
Over time though and with a lot of support from people like Down Syndrome Ireland and my family etc I have come out the other side and my son has given me more joy than I could ever have imagined.
He has his problems more so than other kids but I love him more than life itself and would die for him.
Yes I am a little lucky insofar as he has mild enough learning difficulties and his muscle tone is also excellent for a child with DS but he does have it 100% and it does come with a unique set of problems but I have seen many a set of parents over the last few years and I have yet to meet one who hasn't come out the other side,not one who resents their child or feels their child is a burden or who can't cope.

Look at it this way,what if you had your perfect little baby and a year or two into their life you found out they had severe Autism,would you love your child any less? Or would you do everything you could to give your child the best life they could have.
Or what if they were in a accident and they got disfigured? Would you love them any less because they looked odd or not the "norm"?

As I said there is a lot of uninformed and very ignorant views on this thread.
Good luck to you all with your quest to have designer babies and I hope it doesn't take too many murders of unborn kids for you all to get the perfect baby you all desire.[/QUOTE]


To be fair I don't recall anyone wishing for a designer perfect baby. After all what is perfect? To one couple it may be their child is a musical genius, for another that they place on the county GAA team, for another it is simply that their child is their child.
I see nothing wrong with people being honest enough to say that they would consider terminating their pregnancy if they became aware of disabilities. Many people who chose to do this, are genuinely doing it in a selfless frame of mind whereby they are not inflicting a life of pain, hardship, sorrow, suffering, etc on their baby should it survive.
I know that many people live succesful lives with DS but there is no getting away from the fact that a DS child / adult will always need care and attention that children free from this (and a myriad of other disabilities) will not require. The child with DS will always be a dependent.
Inferring that people are murdering unborn children is unfair, unjust, overly emotive and factually incorrect. People are terminating a pregnancy, the foetus is not a baby.

Many people who chose to do this, are genuinely doing it in a selfless frame of mind whereby they are not inflicting a life of pain, hardship, sorrow, suffering, etc on their baby should it survive.

You see that's the very ignorance I'm talking about.
You me or anybody else has no idea what sort of life a child with a disability will or can have. My child is doing great, he walked before he was one for example whereas my other child was neary two before he walked and he doesn't have a disability.
My child won't have any more pain or suffering or hardship or sorrow in his life than you will. We have given him every opportunity to have a good and happy life.
There is an ignorance surrounding DS among people who really no nothing about the condition and are giving their opinion on a out of date stereo type.
A life of pain and suffering and sadness!! Lol you haven't a clue....

AmarilloFats

mydearwatson wrote: »

Personally ... I couldn't ever imagine myself making the decision to abort but I could absolutely understand and respect the decisions of others.

Make a stand. Do you have the an ability to discern what is right? If you do not what is the point of a discussion.
IS it wrong to kill an unborn child? Why? Find a universal truth. Let that be your light. Don't be so flabby.

AmarilloFats

CerebralCortex wrote: »

That Down's is a cruel imposition on a sentient being and those that have to look after them? Nature is cruel?

Qualitatively the subjective experience of a DS person would be similar to ours. Time spent with a DS syndrome person is a joy I have found.

The real cancerous imposition which humanity is suffering from is ignorance. We simply do not know ourselves. We hurry to see the difference before we've been stuck by to similarities.

AmarilloFats

Blisterman wrote: »

That's a bit harsh I think. Obviously if any parent had the choice of having a child with or without Down Syndrome, the vast majority would choose without. That's not an insult to anyone with Down syndrome or the great work that people do in the area, just an aknowledgment that it's very difficult, both for the child with down syndrome and the parents.

I think a lot of it comes down to your views on abortion. Personally, I don't consider an early fetus to be a human. They lack consciousness, so I'd be inclined to "try again" so to say, but that's just me.

Looks like you're in the majority - which is rarely the side we should be sided with.

FRom wikipedia - "A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated.[52] Data from the National Down Syndrome Cytogenetic Register in the United Kingdom indicates that from 1989 to 2006 the proportion of women choosing to terminate a pregnancy following prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome has remained constant at around 92%.[53][54]"

AmarilloFats

Blisterman wrote: »

That's a bit harsh I think. Obviously if any parent had the choice of having a child with or without Down Syndrome, the vast majority would choose without. That's not an insult to anyone with Down syndrome or the great work that people do in the area, just an aknowledgment that it's very difficult, both for the child with down syndrome and the parents.

I think a lot of it comes down to your views on abortion. Personally, I don't consider an early fetus to be a human. They lack consciousness, so I'd be inclined to "try again" so to say, but that's just me.

A little like the modern minded Southern gentleman who believed in slaves rights. Personallly like, just his opinion. Maybe that's just me though.

AmarilloFats

Blisterman wrote: »

Obviously I belive it's the parent's choice and there's alone, and it would be wrong for the government or anyone else to push people into doing so.

Late term abortions are a much trickier area, but with testing becoming more accurate at an early stage, hopefully this can be avoided.

But can we discern what is right from wrong? If so how?
Where does your belief come from? Is it really your belief?

AmarilloFats

Blisterman wrote: »

That's a bit harsh I think. Obviously if any parent had the choice of having a child with or without Down Syndrome, the vast majority would choose without. That's not an insult to anyone with Down syndrome or the great work that people do in the area, just an aknowledgment that it's very difficult, both for the child with down syndrome and the parents.

I think a lot of it comes down to your views on abortion. Personally, I don't consider an early fetus to be a human. They lack consciousness, so I'd be inclined to "try again" so to say, but that's just me.

What is consciousness? Having read much the the various cognitive science fields I can tell you no one knows. Many believe that single cell organisms are conscious. In French Consciousness and Awareness have the same word...

I think a baby is aware at any age in the womb

AmarilloFats

Zombrex wrote: »

Ok... I get that religious types and others think the person etc.


No they don't. All that exists is the body, the cells, the person does not exit yet and won't exist until the high functions of the brain activate.



No, it is stopping things before they happen. If you stop the development of the fetus before the person has been created then you have not destroyed a person.



They all seem like pretty good reasons not to create a child.

LOL

The Corinthian

AmarilloFats wrote: »

Looks like you're in the majority - which is rarely the side we should be sided with.

There's a cliche... I mean argument that NAMBLA would love to hear...

Zombrex

AmarilloFats wrote: »

Many believe that single cell organisms are conscious.

Many people believe the moon is made of cheese.

thebullkf

A CURIOUS thing happened to me on the Luas recently. I had been standing since boarding the tram at Heuston, but when we reached the Jervis Street stop, a seat freed up. I sat down, grateful for the rest. I was happily window gazing, when I heard a loud voice from somewhere behind me asking for “a two euro piece”. I noticed a look of disgust on the face of a woman in a nearby seat, so I turned to see what was up.

A young man with Down syndrome was making his way through the packed carriage. His beautiful open face looked distressed. He persisted in asking everyone around him for two euro, mumbling that he needed it for the bus home. I dug a coin from my coat pocket, reached back and handed it to him. Job done; back to gazing out the window.

A moment or two later, this same young man sat down in the seat beside me and put his head in his hands. Apropos of nothing at all, he blurted: “How do you stop feelin’ annoyed with someone?” This guy clearly preferred to skip small talk.

I asked him what had him so annoyed, but he wasn’t happy to talk about it. “Just someone who did something a month ago that made me mad.” And then he repeated his question to me with an even greater sense of urgency: “How do you stop feeling mad at someone?”

I asked him what it’s like to walk around holding onto anger. He remained bent over, head in hands, distressed by a feeling that wouldn’t leave. And he said: “It hurts.”

We had an audience who were monitoring our conversation with interest. Maybe this boy wasn’t alone in walking around with unresolved anger. Maybe these onlookers were asking themselves the same question: “How do I let go of my anger?”

I wasn’t sure at all what to say to this young man, but he was growing on me by the minute. I offered him a lame cliché – “Maybe you need to forgive him” – but he saw through this immediately. “No,” he said. “Tried that, didn’t work.” That put me in my place.

I remembered something about people with Down syndrome: they are more connected to their heart than most of us. So I took a different tack and suggested: “Maybe you need to love him.” For the first time since he had sat down he lifted his head from his hands, sat up, and smiled. “Ah love,” he proclaimed loudly. “It’s what bonds us all.” And he threw his arms out in front of him.

He introduced himself to me and shook my hand. The woman who had been turning her eyes to heaven only moments before, leaned over and kindly offered him her best advice: “You need to pray for him too.” Another woman sitting behind her added: “You know, no matter how bad things might be for you, there is always someone else who feels even worse.”

The thought briefly crossed my mind that this second woman – whose face revealed her to be no stranger to pain – had probably tried to console herself with this truth many times.

My new friend responded warmly to each of them, thanked them and shook their hands. The tense atmosphere that had hung in the air vanished. There we now were, all of us, no longer strangers, crowded together at the door waiting to disembark, joking about keeping our balance as the tram curved around Busáras.

In the space of four Luas stops, something had shifted for each of us. We had been wary strangers at Jervis, but smiling friends when we reached Connolly. What had made the difference? Was it the inspired advice that we had given this young man? I suspect not.

I think it was more what he had done for us. His lack of pretence, his direct openness, had disarmed us. He had allowed us for a moment to step out from behind our separate selves and experience a simple but powerful connection with one another.

It occurred to me that this young man with his so-called disability, who made a carriage cringe, was freer and probably healthier than most of us that day. While we lived mostly in our heads, our hearts hidden behind a fear of disapproval, this young man lived from his heart. And even when it hurt, he didn’t try to hide it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0131/1224310997401.html?fb_ref=.Ty-fVFKnpSs.like&fb_source=tickerdialog_oneline

Rabidlamb

AmarilloFats wrote: »

FRom wikipedia - "A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated.[52] Data from the National Down Syndrome Cytogenetic Register in the United Kingdom indicates that from 1989 to 2006 the proportion of women choosing to terminate a pregnancy following prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome has remained constant at around 92%.[53][54]"

You can argue the ethical right & wrong all day long but the facts are clear.
If parents find out in time they opt to abort.