Clarification regarding EU legislation and action on septic tanks

recedite

Solidchrome wrote: »

I'm not only worried for myself but what of older people who cant afford repairs? There seems to have been no consideration at all about how this is going to be funded and maintained.

Unfortunately that bit was entirely left to our own sleepy govt.
The EU just want an end result where septic tanks are not polluting the groundwater, which seems fair enough.

readmylips

surely they should already "know" who has septic tanks, due to the fact that they granted planning for them !! i know i was granted planning for such, and installed it, with proper functioning perc area, signed off by engineer, and no problems since ! So the "council" can bugger off for any euros from moi !!

In saying that though...how do you define a "properly functioning" perc area/septic tank?? is it that you've no blockages, tank backups, floods, smells , seeping water, etc?

what a load of sh*T..pardon the pun

recedite

readmylips wrote: »

In saying that though...how do you define a "properly functioning" perc area/septic tank?? is it that you've no blockages, tank backups, floods, smells , seeping water, etc?

Logically? Test for clean groundwater.
What will the Co Council do? Probably send round a guy with a clipboard.

Mahatma coat

So, let me get this straight,

The EU Says it wants to see some form of regulation on Septic tanks and checks in place to make sure they do what they're supposed to

And Our government want to use this as an excuse to charge households E100 stealth tax for the privelige of 'registering' their Septic tank :rolleyes:

Oldtree

Here we go:

€5 registration charge till September them €50 till Feb 2013, then up to €5,000 fine for not registering.

De-sludging
(1) A domestic waste water treatment system shall be de-sludged at intervals appropriate to the tank capacity and the number of persons resident in the premises connected to it, and such intervals shall be :
(a) at least once in every three years, or
(b) when sludge and scum accumulations exceed 30% of the tank volume or are encroaching on the inlet and outlet baffle entrances, or
(c) as recommended by the system’s manufacturer.

(2) De-sludging shall be carried out by a contractor authorised under the Waste Management (Collection Permit) Regulations 2007 (S.I. No. 820 of 2007) as amended by the Waste Management (Collection Permit) (Amendment) Regulations 2008 (S.I. No. 87 of 2008) and contents disposed of in accordance with all relevant national legislative requirements or directions pertaining at the time.
(3) An owner shall obtain evidence of de-sludging or a receipt from the authorised contractor each time their tank is de-sludged and such evidence or receipt shall be retained for a period of five years.

(4) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (2) and (3), the owner of a domestic waste water treatment system may carry out de-sludging of that system and use its contents in agriculture, subject to compliance with all relevant national legislative requirements or directions pertaining at the time and in particular with the provisions of the Waste Management (Use of Sewage Sludge in Agriculture) Regulations 1998 (S.I. No 148 of 1998, the Waste Management (Use of Sewage Sludge in Agriculture) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 (S.I. No 267 of 2001) and the European Communities (Good Agricultural Practice for Protection of Waters) Regulations 2010 (S.I. No. 610 of 2010).

I wonder if all that means that a farmer can come and empty sludge from tanks for the usual reduced rate as long as a reciept is given???

2.Operation and maintenance of domestic waste water treatment systems

(1) A domestic waste water treatment system shall be operated and maintained by its owner so that domestic waste water or sewage effluent shall not emit, discharge, seep, leak or otherwise escape from the system, or part thereof :

(a) other than from a place or part of the system where the system is designed or intended to discharge domestic waste water or sewage effluent, or

So does this mean that as long as a septic tank's, without a pruaflow or some such polisher, overflow leaks out the designed hole to leak out then its ok???

How is that going to protect our water then???

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterQuality/News/MainBody,30606,en.htm

https://www.protectourwater.ie/

recedite

I think what they are trying to say there is that a farmer can spread his own sludge on his own land, but everybody else has to get a contractor to take it to a treatment plant. That would be fair enough. I agree it is badly worded though. That bad wording will undoubtedly be used by people to "get around" the requirement.

As for the holes in the tank, they want effluent coming out the outlet, not leaking out through the sides. The reason for this is that they can then come along and say either it needs a percolation area for polishing, or it doesn't because it already has one.

Newgrange Warrior

In order to comply with Waste Management (Use of Sewage Sludge in Agriculture) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 (S.I. No 267 of 2001), the farmer by right should have to analyse both soils and sludge for nutrients and heavy metals prior landspreading to ensure the landbank has sufficient capacity.

recedite

In my experience people who have a septic tank are more careful about what they put into it compared to people in towns, who are quite happy to pour any kind of toxic chemical "down the drain".
If you are also drawing well water from the site, you'll be even more careful about not polluting the groundwater on your own doorstep.
And if you are a farmer depending on the land for a living, there is a strong incentive not to spread anything nasty on it.
For these reasons I'd let farmers look after their own business, except to check up on any effluent run-off into streams which would be less of a concern to them.

Macha

recedite wrote: »

In my experience people who have a septic tank are more careful about what they put into it compared to people in towns, who are quite happy to pour any kind of toxic chemical "down the drain".
If you are also drawing well water from the site, you'll be even more careful about not polluting the groundwater on your own doorstep.
And if you are a farmer depending on the land for a living, there is a strong incentive not to spread anything nasty on it.
For these reasons I'd let farmers look after their own business, except to check up on any effluent run-off into streams which would be less of a concern to them.

Even if that were true, there's no scope for exempting farmers and still complying with the EU Directive. But the whole point is that we don't know who's causing the problem. We barely even know how many septic tanks we have in this country and the EPA takes a pitiful number of ground water samples to test for contamination - nowhere near enough to even identify local hotspots. If septic tanks had been registered from the beginning, we wouldn't be in this situation.

As for farmers being inherently against spreading 'nasty stuff' on their land, agriculture is one of the main contributors to water pollution in this country, according to the EPA. Farmers fought against the implementation of the Nitrates Directive in this country, seeking a 1-year moratorium on top of a 10-year moratorium they had already managed to secure. So I don't think I'd be letting them off the hook any time soon.

freddyuk

It was mentioned much earlier in this thread that there has never been any information provided on how to use and manage a septic tank. I think that would be a great starting point to educate the public on what should and should not go into the tank. A simple testing regime to check for correct operation and suggested sludge removal plan would assist those that want to take responsibility for their own waste and control any unforeseen leakage problems and have them remedied. Putting chemicals into a natural treatment system will cause it to work below efficiency or die off completely.
If there was some simple public information sheet handed out with the ESB bills that would be a start. How much would that cost. There will be those few who will not take responsibility for their systems or even be bothered to check where they are but that is what the big stick should be for. This could ensure a large proportion of the systems are checked and if going wrong be brought back to life. If you are comfortable the system is working and is within the regulations then you would have less of a problem then registering; but not knowing anything means you just assume there is going to be a big bill if you only have a simple but effective septic tank. Everyone is worried they will need a new plastic treatment plant running off the mains which is doing the same job but costs a fortune.
I am keen to have my system working as it should breaking down sewage naturally - no smells and no electricity and no cost except occasional emptying.

recedite

Macha wrote: »

As for farmers being inherently against spreading 'nasty stuff' on their land, agriculture is one of the main contributors to water pollution in this country, according to the EPA.

Farmers need to spread nitrates on the land so that your supermarket can keep the shelves stocked with food. They could send the sludge to a treatment plant to be converted into fertilizer pellets, and then buy back the pellets and spread them......... but whats the point in that when they are the end user of it anyway.
Excessive nitrate use in sensitive areas can lead to run-off into streams, and then to algal blooms in lakes, but that is a something that should be monitored separately.

Anyway, for the non-farmer these regulations require regular de-sludging of existing tanks. They do not require that new electrically powered plastic biocycle type tanks be installed.

Macha

recedite wrote: »

Farmers need to spread nitrates on the land so that your supermarket can keep the shelves stocked with food. They could send the sludge to a treatment plant to be converted into fertilizer pellets, and then buy back the pellets and spread them......... but whats the point in that when they are the end user of it anyway.
Excessive nitrate use in sensitive areas can lead to run-off into streams, and then to algal blooms in lakes, but that is a something that should be monitored separately.

The purpose of the Nitrates Directive is to stop run-off into streams. I didn't say it had anything to do with the Waste Framework Directive. I used it to illustrate the fallacy of the idea that farmers don't pollute our waterways, that was being used to justify proposed self-regulation for farmers with septic tanks.

Oldtree

I think that there is a good case here for local Anaerobic Digestion. It seems to be a win win situation for everyone with renewable power produced, a new sustainable local business and with the final output manure being well composted!

http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Bioenergy/Sources/Anaerobic_Digestion/

Macha

Oldtree wrote: »

I think that there is a good case here for local Anaerobic Digestion. It seems to be a win win situation for everyone with renewable power produced, a new sustainable local business and with the final output manure being well composted!

http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Bioenergy/Sources/Anaerobic_Digestion/

Do you mean anaerobic digestion for human sewage?

Oldtree

Macha wrote: »

Do you mean anaerobic digestion for human sewage?

Both farm slurry and human sewage and other organic waste inc food waste, I think you would need many sources to make it viable, and done in a sort of co-op way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8501236.stm

Macha

Oldtree wrote: »

Both farm slurry and human sewage and other organic waste inc food waste, I think you would need many sources to make it viable, and done in a sort of co-op way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8501236.stm

Ah I see what you mean. But is there an issue with pathogens in human waste being used as fertilizer?

Oldtree

The general bumph would suggest that all is rosy in the garden, but I take from this slightly older paper (now) that proper management and proper mixing is essential for pathogen control in digesters, boils down to the trust issue again.

But still, has to be a better option than the current option of a farmer being allowed to spread his own septic tank contents directly onto his field.

colliemcc

Just after reading this thread and as stated above some good information would be nice.
I have an old tyre septic tank in my house built by my grand father from a set plans. With a soakage pit. Its has never been emptied, and I checked it few weeks ago there was no smell of it and very small crust. About a foot and a half from the top of the tank and just full of brown water under the crust. We do not put any bad stuff down the toilet.

I read somewhere that they are looking for people to put grey water into the tank. This include water from disc washers, showers, sinks and washing machines. But sure water from there will mess up the whole natural cycle of a septic tank.

Oldtree

If I were you I would wonder just where the contents of the septic tank are going if it has never been emptied, a leak perhaps? what happens to your grey water at the moment?

colliemcc

The house has only been used for the weekends the last 10 years. And before that it was just by my grand mother for about 20 years. I checked it a few weeks ago. No leaks anywhere. We are very careful as to what goes down the toilet only toilet paper.

My grey water does not go into my septic tank. I have it running into a soakage pit in my field below the house. If it did go into the tank it would ruin it.?

Where should it be going?

Oldtree

Ahh not a heavy use then, that may be why it does not fill up.

You may feel that grey water would ruin your septic tank, if that was the case then there may be something wrong with the tank.

Building regs:

Drainage systems. H1

(1) A building shall be provided with such a drainage system as may be necessary for the hygienic and adequate disposal of foul water from the building.
(2) A building shall be provided with such a drainage system as may be necessary for the adequate disposal of surface water from the building.
(3) No part of a drainage system conveying foul water shall be connected to a sewer reserved for surface water and no part of a drainage system conveying surface water shall be connected to a sewer reserved for foul water.

"domestic wastewater" means water discharged from kitchens, laundry rooms, lavatories, bathrooms, toilets and similar facilities (soil water and wastewater);
"foul wastewater" means any wastewater comprising domestic wastewater and / or industrial wastewater;

2.1.1 A wastewater treatment system is a septic tank system or a packaged wastewater system. In general a septic tank system is a wastewater treatment system that includes a septic tank mainly for primary treatment, followed by a percolation system in the soil providing secondary and tertiary treatment. A packaged wastewater treatment system, generally uses media and mechanical parts to enhance the treatment of the domestic wastewater and is followed by a polishing filter.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,24906,en.pdf

there may be more specific recent docs to find about this.

I too am very cautious what goes down the lu and use mainly biodegradable products.

colliemcc

I am concerned about having to connect the grey water to the tank because of detergent and stuff killing the bacteria that the tank depends on to work correctly.

Oldtree

you'll be wanting the Ecover range of household products, available in supermarkets and health food shops:

http://www.organicsupermarket.ie/shop/product/washing-up-liquid-500ml-ecover

colliemcc

Around widgets i live I don't know of anyone putting there grey water into there tank. Most I've spoken to just have it draining into a field beside there house.

Does anyone here throw stuff into the tank to help it along and if so what's are yous using.

recedite

Oldtree wrote: »

you'll be wanting the Ecover range of household products, available in supermarkets and health food shops:

http://www.organicsupermarket.ie/shop/product/washing-up-liquid-500ml-ecover

I wouldn't rely on products with "eco" or "organic" in their name to be any better.....
that particular one lists 2-bromo-2-nitropropane-1,3-d as an ingredient;

an effective antimicrobial in many industrial environments such as paper mills, oil exploration and production facilities, as well as cooling water disinfection plants.

Just the job for killing off your septic tank bacteria!
In all fairness, the septic tank will still function with this stuff going into it with the grey water. Just not as well, and the sludge will build up a lot quicker.
There was a time many years ago when simple systems like the one described by colliemcc were standard, and they worked very well becauseless went into them overall, and certainly a lot less chemicals.
The question of what colliemcc is to do with the grey water? If it is redirected to the tank it will be worse for the tank, but it won't kill all the septic bacteria. On the other hand, letting it go untreated is frowned upon by building regulations. In practice though, a soakaway is fine for it.

A dead rat thrown in to a brand new septic tank is traditional round my way to start it off with a bacteria culture, but there is nothing you can add to a working tank to improve it. Its more what you keep out of it.

colliemcc

Yea people round my way throw a dead animal in every couple of years. If I do have to redirect my grey water into the tank i will be adding a T piece for when they leave.

Oldtree

recedite wrote: »

I wouldn't rely on products with "eco" or "organic" in their name to be any better.....
that particular one lists 2-bromo-2-nitropropane-1,3-d as an ingredient;

Just the job for killing off your septic tank bacteria!
In all fairness, the septic tank will still function with this stuff going into it with the grey water. Just not as well, and the sludge will build up a lot quicker.
There was a time many years ago when simple systems like the one described by colliemcc were standard, and they worked very well becauseless went into them overall, and certainly a lot less chemicals.
The question of what colliemcc is to do with the grey water? If it is redirected to the tank it will be worse for the tank, but it won't kill all the septic bacteria. On the other hand, letting it go untreated is frowned upon by building regulations. In practice though, a soakaway is fine for it.

A dead rat thrown in to a brand new septic tank is traditional round my way to start it off with a bacteria culture, but there is nothing you can add to a working tank to improve it. Its more what you keep out of it.

:eek: not al all what i expected in this product, but unusually i didnt look at the igredients. just looked that up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronopol

so other than sand and lemon juice have you an alternative to suggest please? What do you use?

when ecover is compared to fairy liquid there would be a clear winner in my mind in the "less damage, etc" stakes, given what little we know of what is in fairy.

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/268721/behind_the_label_fairy_liquid.html

I was told by a septic tank man that a dead cat would do the job but I couldnt bring myself to do that.

recedite

We just use any brand of washing powders etc. but avoid any kind of "toilet ducks" or disinfectants as these are specifically made and designed for killing bacteria.
The tank needed desludging after about 8 or 9 years.
In theory, a tank like colliemcc just described is self sustainable, and never (or almost never) needs desludging. The bacteria consume the nutrients and then their bodies get carried out in the treated water. As long as the inflow is less than the amount they can consume, and all to their taste, it works.

anotherfinemess

In the UK small systems, defined as domestic septic tanks serving houses with less than 9 people living in them, don't have to register at all.

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/118753.aspx

So why are we being treated so differently? and by whom? the EU or our own government?

Jim Martin

Oldtree wrote: »

:eek: not al all what i expected in this product, but unusually i didnt look at the igredients. just looked that up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronopol

so other than sand and lemon juice have you an alternative to suggest please? What do you use?

when ecover is compared to fairy liquid there would be a clear winner in my mind in the "less damage, etc" stakes, given what little we know of what is in fairy.

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/268721/behind_the_label_fairy_liquid.html

I was told by a septic tank man that a dead cat would do the job but I couldnt bring myself to do that.

I thought a dead chicken was the traditional method!