Asked to leave collateral behind me in a retail outlet

Freiheit

Had a piercing done,I took it for granted that Laser card would be an acceptable form of payment. (Ok I probably should have asked in advance,but as cards almost universaly acceptable I took it for granted). However as I proceeded to pay I was then informed that only cash was acceptable and that I must leave 'collateral' behind,in the shape of my wallet,jacket,bag or something while I left to withdraw cash. While it wasn't personal I felt somewhat aggrieved initially,still do a little even though it wasn't personal. Definitely will cause me to consider whether to use their services again.

What do others think?.

foggy_lad

A bit silly to think that some back street tattoo & piercing shop would accept any debit or credit card, i would have thought most of their work is cash only for revenue purposes.

On the other hand you got a piercing and were going to walk out without paying so why wouldn't they insist on you leaving something valuable while you got the cash? Do you know the people in the shop well? Are they friends?

MagicMarker

I think any reasonable person would have offered to leave something behind, they shouldn't even have to ask.

Freiheit

Oh yes hadn't thought of that. Is it to evade the Revenue generally when cards are not accepted?. Yeah perhaps my level of trust is higher than most,maybe parts of the general populace is not as honest as me. Maybe such rules are required for their benefit.

Paulw

Freiheit wrote: »

Is it to evade the Revenue generally when cards are not accepted?

No, absolutely not, it's more usually due to the charges that the retailer pays for using laser/debit cards.

January

foggy_lad wrote: »

A bit silly to think that some back street tattoo & piercing shop would accept any debit or credit card, i would have thought most of their work is cash only for revenue purposes.

On the other hand you got a piercing and were going to walk out without paying so why wouldn't they insist on you leaving something valuable while you got the cash? Do you know the people in the shop well? Are they friends?

:rolleyes:

Yes, the big bad piercer is evading paying his taxes... that's why he hasn't got a credit card machine...

The charges for the machine are probably not worth paying, they're very high. So the business owner decided to save some money and not get one and operate cash only...

Mr. Presentable

Paulw wrote: »

No, absolutely not, it's more usually due to the charges that the retailer pays for using laser/debit cards.

This.

You pay a %, a service charge, and a line rental for the phone line. That's why I don't have one. Nothing to do with traceability

dudara

As far as I'm concerned, it was a perfectly reasonable request on the part of the shop. They have to cover themselves.

This wasn't a personal affront to you. Look at it from the viewpoint of the retailer.

rubadub

Freiheit wrote: »

Definitely will cause me to consider whether to use their services again.

What do others think?.

If it was your shop/business what would you have done?

I wonder what their rights were, e.g. could they have called the gardai on you.

What they did seems perfectly reasonable to me, I would have been praising them and had no problem using them again.

the groutch

if you already had the piercing done, it's not unreasonable that they wanted to hold onto something of value, otherwise you could just do a runner and get a free piercing.

seamus

rubadub wrote: »

I wonder what their rights were, e.g. could they have called the gardai on you.

They could contact the Gardai, but not to arrest him/her. They cannot stop you from leaving, nor can they legally request collateral to ensure that you return.

In certain circumstances, a business may enforce a lien, where they already have your property, and withhold it until you pay your bill - e.g. a mechanic who has serviced your car.

But in this case, there would be no such way of doing it.

The legally correct thing to do is for the business to issue an invoice and ask you to return and pay it.
They would be well within their rights to ask for your name & address, and even to ask for proof of such. If you refused to offer your details & proof (or couldn't), it would not be inappropriate to contact the Gardai so that they can ascertain your identity.

They however would have no right to detain you. If you attempted to leave the shop without providing your contact details, they could rightly assume that you were not intending to pay and therefore were committing theft, and they could exercise a citizen's arrest.

The grey area above is that if you refuse to give evidence of your identity, but tell them that you will be back in five minutes with the money, then they cannot safely exercise a citizen's arrest (it is not theft to leave without paying unless you never intend to pay) and therefore they cannot detain you.

However, the most reasonable solution is the one they offered; leave something of yours in the shop and go off to get money. Minimal hassle all 'round. Demanding proof of identity and all that seems to me would be more offensive than asking for collateral.

Resi12

I would have offered myself, it's like being in the same situation in a restaurant. It only makes sense because that worker is only thinking logically. Imagine if they did do it, gave someone the benefit of the doubt only for them to do a runner. How would they explain their naivety and loss of a couple hundred euro to their boss?

You can't take it personally as they don't know you or if you are the type of person to be running out on a bill.

rubadub

foggy_lad wrote: »

A bit silly to think that some back street tattoo & piercing shop would accept any debit or credit card

True, you often see threads asking what online stores take laser, its safer to preume they do not. Sure Lidl don't even take credit cards, only laser I think.

Forest Master

Freiheit wrote: »

Yeah perhaps my level of trust is higher than most,maybe parts of the general populace is not as honest as me. Maybe such rules are required for their benefit.

What an arrogant stuck-up tone. Maybe most of the general populace aren't ignorant enough to assume Laser Cards are accepted everywhere, and arrogant enough to think they can avail of a service & leave without paying. And maybe the "collateral" rules just apply to those untrustworthy sorts who frequent tattoo & piercing joints.

Nanazolie

rubadub wrote: »

True, you often see threads asking what online stores take laser, its safer to preume they do not. Sure Lidl don't even take credit cards, only laser I think.

Lidl and Aldi also accept Visa Debit

Melendez

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Oryx

Melendez wrote: »

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No, they won't. I'm 21 years in retail, and if you let someone out the door without paying 99% of the time you will never see them again.

Nanazolie

Melendez wrote: »

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you'd be out of business pretty fast if you were so trusting. Some people would definitively come back (me) but most would not (all my in laws. That's about 20 of them)

seamus

Oryx wrote: »

No, they won't. I'm 21 years in retail, and if you let someone out the door without paying 99% of the time you will never see them again.

Well I certainly wouldn't say 99%, but it would depend on where you are and what you're selling.

In small rural setting, people would be more likely to come back in, even if they're from out of the area.

In a very niche shop (like a comic book shop), an enthusiast/regular would be likely to return and pay for what they bought.

But in a faceless department store or supermarket in a busy town or city, if you let most people out the door, they'll be gone.

I would also say that people in their late teens/early 20's (i.e. students) would be more likely to do a legger than someone in their thirties. Since a piercer will typically see more of the former coming through their doors, they've probably been stung before and so insist on collateral now.

Melendez

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Tayla

seamus wrote: »

They could contact the Gardai, but not to arrest him/her. They cannot stop you from leaving, nor can they legally request collateral to ensure that you return.

In certain circumstances, a business may enforce a lien, where they already have your property, and withhold it until you pay your bill - e.g. a mechanic who has serviced your car.

But in this case, there would be no such way of doing it.

The legally correct thing to do is for the business to issue an invoice and ask you to return and pay it.
leave the shop without providing your contact details, they could rightly assume that you were not intending to pay and therefore were committing theft, and they could exercise a citizen's arrest.

.

This happened to my mother in law the other day too, she had received a new debit card and had activated and used it but when she tried to pay for petrol with it it wouldn't work, It had worked everywhere else so it must have been their own card machine so they told her she had to wait for someone to bring her the money out to her.

The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

I wouldn't let anyone hold me somewhere against my will like that when there is no law that entitles them to do so.

Oryx

Certainly I've seen honest people come back. I even had conscience money left in the shop once. But I've had people I know, people whose details I had, people who promised me faithfully they would not let me down, all stung me for money. The problem is you can't tell the good from the bad and you can't trust someones word anymore.

seamus

Tayla wrote: »

The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

The problem is that many people assume that as soon as you cross the threshold of the shop to leave, and you haven't paid, that you are a thief.
In reality, theft requires the intention to deprive the property owner of their property. If you forget to pay for something and return to the shop as soon as you notice it, you cannot be done for theft. Likewise if you forget to pay for something and never remember that you needed to pay for it, technically it's not theft. Though best of luck proving that you simply forgot about it.

In the case of a petrol station, provide the station with your reg & your name and address and tell them that you're leaving in your car to get money. You can be arrested for theft, but you could never be prosecuted because they would have to prove that you never intended to pay for the petrol.
Of course, by the time the Gardai even bothered looking for you, you'd be back in the petrol station with the money

Tayla

seamus wrote: »

In the case of a petrol station, provide the station with your reg & your name and address and tell them that you're leaving in your car to get money. You can be arrested for theft, but you could never be prosecuted because they would have to prove that you never intended to pay for the petrol.
Of course, by the time the Gardai even bothered looking for you, you'd be back in the petrol station with the money

If you told them you were leaving to get money and they said they were going to call the Gardai and you waited until they got there...what would they say to you anyway?

It's not like they're going to give you a garda escort to get the money out, they can't arrest you either!

Plazaman

Tayla wrote: »

This happened to my mother in law the other day too, she had received a new debit card and had activated and used it but when she tried to pay for petrol with it it wouldn't work, It had worked everywhere else so it must have been their own card machine so they told her she had to wait for someone to bring her the money out to her.

The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

I wouldn't let anyone hold me somewhere against my will like that when there is no law that entitles them to do so.

Hmmm, sorry no sympathy for your mum-in-law. She was buying petrol so presumably she had a car so presumably she had her drivers licence with her. She could have got them to take the details off the drivers licence and then say she'd be back in 10 minutes with cash (or however long it took to drive to the nearest ATM and back).

OP you were provided with the service requested so payment is necessary. Unless you had provided ID to the shop owner to prove who you were, then of course they'd look for something to hold to ensure you'd come back. I'm sure your a 100% honest but thats from the other side of a computer screen, if you were in my shop then suspicions would abound.

Disclaimer for Tax Purposes: I don't own a shop.

seamus

If you told them you were leaving to get money and they said they were going to call the Gardai and you waited until they got there...what would they say to you anyway?

What would the Gardai say to you?

The Gardai would check your reg on Pulse, confirm your name & address and tell you to head off and get the money and give the garage a bollocking for wasting their time.

Tayla

Plazaman wrote: »

Hmmm, sorry no sympathy for your mum-in-law. She was buying petrol so presumably she had a car so presumably she had her drivers licence with her. She could have got them to take the details off the drivers licence and then say she'd be back in 10 minutes with cash (or however long it took to drive to the nearest ATM and back).

OP you were provided with the service requested so payment is necessary. Unless you had provided ID to the shop owner to prove who you were, then of course they'd look for something to hold to ensure you'd come back. I'm sure your a 100% honest but thats from the other side of a computer screen, if you were in my shop then suspicions would abound.

Disclaimer for Tax Purposes: I don't own a shop.

Noones looking for sympathy actually

Yes she could have but most people aren't aware of their rights in this country. They told her she 'had' to stay and she thought she did.

Tayla

seamus wrote: »

What would the Gardai say to you?

The Gardai would check your reg on Pulse, confirm your name & address and tell you to head off and get the money and give the garage a bollocking for wasting their time.

Yes so i'd tell them I was leaving and to ring the guards while I was there (if they didn't want me to leave) rather than me head off and the garage exaggerate the story to the guards!

Freiheit

Thanks all. I accept that it wasn't personal but at the time felt bad. To make matters just a tincie weencie bit worse when I returned with the money he informed me that he didn't have change and to see if I could get it from a nearby Cafe!:)....change was only 10 Euro and he didn't have it!

Nanazolie

Freiheit wrote: »

Thanks all. I accept that it wasn't personal but at the time felt bad. To make matters just a tincie weencie bit worse when I returned with the money he informed me that he didn't have change and to see if I could get it from a nearby Cafe!:)....change was only 10 Euro and he didn't have it!

Now, THAT's bad customer service. I can understand why he asked you to leave some collateral while you were getting the cash, but that HE asked you to get some change is a step too far. He should have either get the change himself or offered the service for free as a goodwill gesture

Mister Dread

It is a civil debt. You offered to pay and you told them you intended to pay. They have no right to ask for you to leave anything.