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Asked to leave collateral behind me in a retail outlet

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2

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    #32
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    It is a civil debt. You offered to pay and you told them you intended to pay. They have no right to ask for you to leave anything.

    Equally, a customer in a business that operates on a cash-only basis has no right to force that business to grant credit.

    It is quite reasonable for a business to ask for security for a debt, and they have every right to do so.


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    #33
    gerrycollins
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭gerrycollins


    seamus wrote: »
    The problem is that many people assume that as soon as you cross the threshold of the shop to leave, and you haven't paid, that you are a thief.
    In reality, theft requires the intention to deprive the property owner of their property. If you forget to pay for something and return to the shop as soon as you notice it, you cannot be done for theft. Likewise if you forget to pay for something and never remember that you needed to pay for it, technically it's not theft. Though best of luck proving that you simply forgot about it.

    how many times have i heard as a retailer any person I stop "oh I was coming back to pay for it"

    shop workers et al are not mind readers so it is a safe to assume anybody who leaves the store without permission is not intending to pay for thier goods.if they leave with the shop workers/owners permission then it cannot be taken as theft even if they never return to pay for it. then it becomes a civil case between the two parties.

    if you leave without paying and return then that the retailers good luck and your good nature.


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    #34
    Mister Dread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 382 ✭✭Mister Dread


    You don't need permission to leave the shop. It's a civil debt, not a crime.


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    #35
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Next time I go shopping I'll just be sure to shout out ''I intend to pay for these items'' before running out of the shop, sure it's not a crime.


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    #36
    Mister Dread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 382 ✭✭Mister Dread


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Next time I go shopping I'll just be sure to shout out ''I intend to pay for these items'' before running out of the shop, sure it's not a crime.
    It's a crime if you don't return or don't intend to pay. Given that they are items that you don't have to take then it would be taken as a crime. Take it from the man who decides if it's a crime.


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    #37
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Tayla wrote: »
    This happened to my mother in law the other day too, she had received a new debit card and had activated and used it but when she tried to pay for petrol with it it wouldn't work, It had worked everywhere else so it must have been their own card machine so they told her she had to wait for someone to bring her the money out to her.

    The petrol station wasn't in walking distance of another ATM so she had to wait for around an hour for someone to come out.

    I told she should have just left and told them to send her out the bill.

    I wouldn't let anyone hold me somewhere against my will like that when there is no law that entitles them to do so.

    Much the same happend to me a while back, I filled up the car and then realised i had no money on me, no problem there's an atm in the shop - out of order. I explained it to the cashier, who called the manager, who appeared with a form for me to sign promising to pay within 48 hours, took my reg and let me go about my business. A bit embarrasing but not as bad as having to wait an hour for someone to come rescue you!
    It's not like your going to leave the country for a tank of petrol!


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    #38
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    It's a crime if you don't return or don't intend to pay. Given that they are items that you don't have to take then it would be taken as a crime. Take it from the man who decides if it's a crime.

    Are you Mister Dread, or Judge Dread?


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    #39
    gerrycollins
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭gerrycollins


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    You don't need permission to leave the shop. It's a civil debt, not a crime.

    the debt only occurs when the sale contract has completed. if you do not close the contract ie proceede throught the tills and pay up(replace pay up with leave with permission where appropiate) then the contract does not complete and thus there is no debt between two parties and as such it is theft


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    #40
    Mister Dread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 382 ✭✭Mister Dread


    gerrycollins wrote: »
    the debt only occurs when the sale contract has completed. if you do not close the contract ie proceede throught the tills and pay up(replace pay up with leave with permission where appropiate) then the contract does not complete and thus there is no debt between two parties and as such it is theft
    Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

    A purchase of goods is a bit different than a situation where the goods/service have already been irreversably provided.


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    #41
    gerrycollins
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭gerrycollins


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

    A purchase of goods is a bit different than a situation where the goods/service have already been irreversably provided.

    i have stopped numerous people after they have left shops without paying and they were suscessfully prosecuted in court for their offences. ps im not a secuirity guard.

    where the goods were provided eg petrol station, before payment could take place, most petrol stations have a policy regarding these instances such as a form to fill out and as such you have been given permission to leave without paying on the trust of you returning to pay for the goods.obviously certain details that can lead to your where abouts must be the details.

    the retailer is taking a risk and some dont take that risk and thats their choice.


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    #42
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

    A purchase of goods is a bit different than a situation where the goods/service have already been irreversably provided.

    Are you for real or just deluded?. Do you think you can walk out of Tesco's with a bag of groceries and then tell the manager when the alarm goes off "bill me please"?, that is theft, if it isn't what is to stop everyone from doing this?. Stop with the rubbish.


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    #43
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    Nah you don't really know what you're talking about. That "leave with permission" thing doesn't exist. If I was in that situation, I'd leave a business card or write my name and address on a piece of paper and say bill me please. No theft and no permission to leave needed.

    Your either clueless or trolling or just both,

    I've never heard such nonsense, I suggest you do what your claiming in Tesco or Dunnes and just see how it goes for you....

    :rolleyes:


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    #44
    Mister Dread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 382 ✭✭Mister Dread


    You really are a special group. If you go up to a till in a shop and say "I have no money to pay for this so I'm going to walk out" they will just ask you to leave the items behind. If you don't then it is theft.

    It's a different story with a service or fuel where you can't just leave it. In that case you can walk out and ther is no crime once you show intention to pay. If they then call me out I will ask them did they leave a name and number or address. If they did then it is a civil debt but I will keep note of the name.


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    #45
    Beggared
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Beggared


    The oddest part is that a cash only business didn't have a €10 note to give the OP in change. That sounds like they were trying to manouevre the OP into leaving a €10 tip while they were holding whatever collateral they had.


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    #46
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Your either clueless or trolling or just both,

    I've never heard such nonsense, I suggest you do what your claiming in Tesco or Dunnes and just see how it goes for you....

    :rolleyes:

    He must be trolling, it would be mind-boggling to think in this day and age when Irish people are so aware of economic and consumer principles that someone would believe that just because there isn't a tangible exchange of goods, that consumer law/rights do not apply. Using his logic, services such as a taxi ride, bus/train ride, cinema, Doctor visit, hair cut etc do not have to be paid for like a tin of peas because nothing of tangible mass is recieved. He must be trolling or else he is a child, i just asked my 8yr old son if he thought he would not have to pay for a hair cut after having because it is not a "real" item, he said he would have to.


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    #47
    Mister Dread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 382 ✭✭Mister Dread


    davo10 wrote: »
    He must be trolling, it would be mind-boggling to think in this day and age when Irish people are so aware of economic and consumer principles that someone would believe that just because there isn't a tangible exchange of goods, that consumer law/rights do not apply. Using his logic, services such as a taxi ride, bus/train ride, cinema, Doctor visit, hair cut etc do not have to be paid for like a tin of peas because nothing of tangible mass is recieved. He must be trolling or else he is a child, i just asked my 8yr old son if he thought he would not have to pay for a hair cut after having because it is not a "real" item, he said he would have to.


    Your son is thick as ****, just like you.


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    #48
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    Your son is thick as ****, just like you.

    He may well be, but he has a better grasp of consumerism than you.


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    #49
    Beggared
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Beggared


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    Your son is thick as ****, just like you.
    That's how you lose arguments when you are already right. :rolleyes:


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    #50
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Beggared wrote: »
    The oddest part is that a cash only business didn't have a €10 note to give the OP in change. That sounds like they were trying to manouevre the OP into leaving a €10 tip while they were holding whatever collateral they had.

    Or like a lot of small service providers they start the day with a float of 5's, 10's, 20's etc and if the typical service charge is €7 you soon exhaust your €10's if a number of customers pay with €20 notes.

    I think this is all going a little off OP's topic, OP asked what people think of being asked to leave something in the shop while money was obtained. The general opinion is that this was no big thing as the service provider had no way of being certain that OP would return with the money as no previous relationship existed and the vendoe had no way of finding the OP if he/she did not return to pay. As said small businesses often do not have laser/visa machines due to the rental/transaction costs.


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    #51
    gerrycollins
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭gerrycollins


    Mister Dread wrote: »
    You really are a special group. If you go up to a till in a shop and say "I have no money to pay for this so I'm going to walk out" they will just ask you to leave the items behind. If you don't then it is theft.
    thats perfectly fine you small local who knows you might let you away until the next time your in. again the retailer is giving you permission
    Mister Dread wrote: »
    It's a different story with a service or fuel where you can't just leave it. In that case you can walk out and ther is no crime once you show intention to pay. If they then call me out I will ask them did they leave a name and number or address. If they did then it is a civil debt but I will keep note of the name.

    thats the crux of my argument, you cannot do this without permission post eg.filling your car, and that would be to make arrangements with the retailer before leaving the premises. how can you show intention to pay(now or later) unless you discuss so with the shop worker or manager?

    i seriously doubt you are suggesting to drive away from the petrol station and if the guards catch up after you all your going to say as a get out of jail card is that you had intentions of paying later????


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    #52
    gerrycollins
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭gerrycollins


    davo10 wrote: »
    Or like a lot of small service providers they start the day with a float of 5's, 10's, 20's etc and if the typical service charge is €7 you soon exhaust your €10's if a number of customers pay with €20 notes.

    I think this is all going a little off OP's topic, OP asked what people think of being asked to leave something in the shop while money was obtained. The general opinion is that this was no big thing as the service provider had no way of being certain that OP would return with the money as no previous relationship existed and the vendoe had no way of finding the OP if he/she did not return to pay. As said small businesses often do not have laser/visa machines due to the rental/transaction costs.

    i'd have no issue leaving anything behind unless they wanted something i could not give.


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    #53
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    gerrycollins wrote: »
    the retailer is taking a risk and some dont take that risk and thats their choice.

    It's not really their choice though, they have no right to force you to stay there. I wouldn't just leave without them agreeing to it but if they wouldn't agree then I would get them to ring the guards when I was there so I could explain the situation properly rather than getting accused of 'stealing' by the guards.


    davo10 wrote: »
    Using his logic, services such as a taxi ride, bus/train ride, cinema, Doctor visit, hair cut etc do not have to be paid for like a tin of peas because nothing of tangible mass is recieved. He must be trolling or else he is a child, i just asked my 8yr old son if he thought he would not have to pay for a hair cut after having because it is not a "real" item, he said he would have to.

    Ok legally you have to yes, noone is saying you don't have to pay but technically you don't have to pay there and then because shopkeepers, doctors and hairdressers etc. don't have the power to hold you there or demand collateral from you. All they can do is call the guards.


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    #54
    gerrycollins
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭gerrycollins


    Tayla wrote: »
    It's not really their choice though, they have no right to force you to stay there. I wouldn't just leave without them agreeing to it but if they wouldn't agree then I would get them to ring the guards when I was there so I could explain the situation properly rather than getting accused of 'stealing' by the guards.

    i agree completely but the risk,like any risk needs to be assessed by the owner etc, in the OP's situation is where no relationship exists or regular business exists so personally i would have no issue leaving some deposit of value ie my phone until i got cash in this instance.

    i would take exception where the local petrol station where i fill up 6 times a week and i live across the road from asked me for collateral.


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    #55
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tayla wrote: »
    It's not really their choice though, they have no right to force you to stay there. I wouldn't just leave without them agreeing to it but if they wouldn't agree then I would get them to ring the guards when I was there so I could explain the situation properly rather than getting accused of 'stealing' by the guards.





    Ok legally you have to yes, noone is saying you don't have to pay but technically you don't have to pay there and then because shopkeepers, doctors and hairdressers etc. don't have the power to hold you there or demand collateral from you. All they can do is call the guards.

    In your opinion, why "technically" do you not have to pay there and then in the absence of an agreement to defer payment prior to the service being provided?. Are you of the opinion that we can all get a taxi home tonight and then "technically" not pay there and then if we do not want to? How many Doctors, shopkeepers and hairdressers you have never been to before have you told that you are not paying them when the service/transaction has been completed? More nonsense


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    #56
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Mister Dread infracted for using abusive language and being insulting. Please take the time to read the forum charter before posting again.

    dudara


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    #57
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    davo10 wrote: »
    In your opinion, why "technically" do you not have to pay there and then in the absence of an agreement to defer payment prior to the service being provided?. Are you of the opinion that we can all get a taxi home tonight and then "technically" not pay there and then if we do not want to? How many Doctors, shopkeepers and hairdressers you have never been to before have you told that you are not paying them when the service/transaction has been completed? More nonsense

    No technically you don't have to pay because you might not have the money or access to the money there and then, if all you have is a laser card and it's been stopped by the bank then where are you going to get money from.

    If you're trying to walk out the door with a product then of course they'll take it off you, if it's fuel or you've been provided with a service and can't pay then they have no option but to let you go until you can pay, you're not going to get arrested....so 'technically' you don't have to pay there and then......if you don't have the money, you don't have the money!!


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    #58
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tayla wrote: »
    No technically you don't have to pay because you might not have the money or access to the money there and then, if all you have is a laser card and it's been stopped by the bank then where are you going to get money from.

    If you're trying to walk out the door with a product then of course they'll take it off you, if it's fuel or you've been provided with a service and can't pay then they have no option but to let you go until you can pay, you're not going to get arrested....so 'technically' you don't have to pay there and then......if you don't have the money, you don't have the money!!

    tayla are you seriously telling the readers of this thread that they do not have to pay for their goods and services when they recieve them and no arrangement has previously agreed to pay at a later date ?. I think you may have just put hundreds of thousands of store security personnel out of their jobs, shoplifters and theives no longer need to stuff goods up their jumpers, they just need to tell the store manager that "technically" they do not have to pay now and that they should just send out an invoice.

    i think you may be confusing "not having to pay" with "not being able to pay". A laser card is a debit card, you must have the funds in the bank in order to be able to use it, if you obtain a service while knowing that the funds are not there to pay for it (i.e you have spent the money already), then that is obtaining goods and services by deception and is a whole different matter.


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    #59
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    davo10 wrote: »
    tayla are you seriously telling the readers of this thread that they do not have to pay for their goods and services when they recieve them and no arrangement has previously agreed to pay at a later date ?. I think you may have just put hundreds of thousands of store security personnel out of their jobs, shoplifters and theives no longer need to stuff goods up their jumpers, they just need to tell the store manager that "technically" they do not have to pay now and that they should just send out an invoice.


    No i'm not saying that you don't have to pay, i'm saying that if you can't pay at the time then there's really nothing you, they or anyone can do about but let you pay when you actually have the money.

    I said goods etc. are different because they can be given back.......services can't.

    davo10 wrote: »
    i think you may be confusing "not having to pay" with "not being able to pay". A laser card is a debit card, you must have the funds in the bank in order to be able to use it, if you obtain a service while knowing that the funds are not there to pay for it (i.e you have spent the money already), then that is obtaining goods and services by deception and is a whole different matter.

    Sometimes the shops card machine is off, that's not the customers fault is it?

    The shop owners and service providers don't have the power to hold you there until you've paid and you can't produce money out of thin air so they have have to choice but to come to an agreement with you about a delayed payment.


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    #60
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tayla wrote: »
    No i'm not saying that you don't have to pay, i'm saying that if you can't pay at the time then there's really nothing you, they or anyone can do about but let you pay when you actually have the money.

    I said goods etc. are different because they can be given back.......services can't.




    Sometimes the shops card machine is off, that's not the customers fault is it?
    .

    Ah come on, that's a whole different scenario, if the shop isn't able to accept payment that is not the same as your "technically you do not have to pay there and then", as for the other bit, what is to stop all of us going in, availing of a service and then saying "I actually cannot pay for it". This is nonsense. If you obtain a service, there is a contract, you recieve then you pay, if you cannot then you should not have had the service in the first place. This is rubbish and is going completely off the OP's point.


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    #61
    Tayla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭Tayla


    When you originally asked me what did I mean by 'technically you don't have to pay there and then' I had already answered it in my previous post, I said
    wrote:
    noone is saying you don't have to pay but technically you don't have to pay there and then because shopkeepers, doctors and hairdressers etc. don't have the power to hold you there or demand collateral from you. All they can do is call the guards.

    Also I would expect the person to pay it as soon as they possibly could.

    My main point in this thread is that the shopkeepers legally cannot make you stay there and so it's not off topic at all.


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