Smithwicks Pale Ale

BeerNut

Technocentral wrote: »

Its difficult but not impossible to avoid been a corporate whore.:D

"Corporate john", surely? I mean, they want you to pay.

Krusty_Clown

Technocentral wrote: »

Its difficult but not impossible to avoid been a corporate whore.:D

I take it you are writing this post from your Linux OS, using your Konqueror browser that you found by performing a search on DuckDuckGo? What I want to know, is how do you live without a mobile phone?

I think most people who post regularly on the subject of beer on this thread have said that they would all prefer an Irish or other nationality's craft beer. But in the absence of these, Smithwicks Pale Ale may be preferable to Carlsberg, Heineken, Budweiser or Guinness. In the last 6 weeks, I've had two pints of Smithwicks Pale Ale, one pint of Guinness, and the rest of the beer I have enjoyed has been Irish, English, Scottish and American craft beer (most of it Irish).

SnoopyGunner

It's not impossible no, you just have to be completely self-sufficient... Most be nice living with all your needs met by your own hand and vegetable patch... No need for petrol, mobiles, computers and other "corporate whore" produced goods... So before utopia arrives, a little choice in the pub is welcome

Technocentral

SnoopyGunner wrote: »

It's not impossible no, you just have to be completely self-sufficient... Most be nice living with all your needs met by your own hand and vegetable patch... No need for petrol, mobiles, computers and other "corporate whore" produced goods... So before utopia arrives, a little choice in the pub is welcome

Nonsense, nobody's a saint but where possible choose locally produced alternatives or at least craft made produce, computers, petrol and mobiles are essential to live and work and aren't made by local (or international) craftsmen, beer and cheese etc are, there's your difference. Btw the following Smiley was made by me using locally sourced materials

Bigcheeze

Technocentral wrote: »

Btw the following Smiley was made by me using locally sourced materials

They're not Irish teeth.

n97 mini

Technocentral wrote: »

Nonsense, nobody's a saint but where possible choose locally produced alternatives or at least craft made produce, computers, petrol and mobiles are essential to live and work and aren't made by local (or international) craftsmen, beer and cheese etc are, there's your difference. Btw the following Smiley was made by me using locally sourced materials

Here's the irony: with the exception of water most craft beers are made using 100% imported materials.

More irony: The biggest ingredient after water is barley, and Smithwicks Pale Ale uses 100% Irish barley.

BeerNut

n97 mini wrote: »

Here's the irony: with the exception of water most craft beers are made using 100% imported materials.

Some Irish craft breweries -- White Gypsy in particular -- are working very hard to roll that back. The market dominance of Diageo and Heineken has made use of Irish materials impractical. The reason everyone (including Diageo) uses imported hops is that Guinness drove the price of Irish hops so far down that it wasn't worth the farmers' while growing them any more.

norrie rugger

BeerNut wrote: »

Some Irish craft breweries -- White Gypsy in particular -- are working very hard to roll that back. The market dominance of Diageo and Heineken has made use of Irish materials impractical. The reason everyone (including Diageo) uses imported hops is that Guinness drove the price of Irish hops so far down that it wasn't worth the farmers' while growing them any more.

Our weather does not exactly help either.
I would imagine that it would always be a lot cheaper to import, as they just grow better in slightly warmer climates.

BeerNut

norrie rugger wrote: »

Our weather does not exactly help either.
I would imagine that it would always be a lot cheaper to import, as they just grow better in slightly warmer climates.

Yes, that's why they no longer grow hops in England. Oh, wait...

norrie rugger

BeerNut wrote: »

Yes, that's why they no longer grow hops in England. Oh, wait...

South east england is quite less wet than here.

I am not saying that it can not be done. It was done for a long time before imports but not as efficient

BeerNut

norrie rugger wrote: »

It was done for a long time before imports

It was done for a long time as well as imports. American hops, for instance, have been coming to Europe since the 19th century. Efficiency is a matter of economics, not simply ecology.

Martyn1989

So no hop farms left, and do we have any maltsers? As far as I know the only place that has one is st james gate, and Im more then likely wrong about that

irish_goat

Carlow Brewing have started growing their own hops, afaik.

With regards to White Gypsy their Emerald Ale is lovely and there's something very satisfying drinking it knowing that it's the only 100% Irish beer in the world.

oblivious

Martyn1989 wrote: »

So no hop farms left, and do we have any maltsers? As far as I know the only place that has one is st james gate, and Im more then likely wrong about that

Guinness does not malt their barley, they buy malting barley and roast it, not sure if the flake there own, but they may

n97 mini

BeerNut wrote: »

Some Irish craft breweries -- are working very hard to roll that back.

Leaving out White Gypsy... how many is some?

BeerNut wrote: »

The market dominance of Diageo and Heineken has made use of Irish materials impractical.

It's not quite as simple as that. The malt production here is set up to serve two very big customers, and to supply them in a way that is convenient for them. But for smaller customers to use English malt is a) more convenient and b) cheaper and sometimes c) more suitable.

BeerNut wrote: »

The reason everyone (including Diageo) uses imported hops is that Guinness drove the price of Irish hops so far down that it wasn't worth the farmers' while growing them any more.

Hops production is/was very labour intensive, and something that would have required a lot of manpower, pre-mechanisation. Labour costs a lot of money.

The only way to reduce labour costs and gain a competitive advantage is mechanisation. However hop pickers etc are hugely expensive as they're bespoke... you can't just buy one from the local co-op, you need to get one made, by someone who knows how to make one. That's not cheap. Therefore if you didn't have the capital to mechanise, you couldn't compete.

The English hops industry mechanised, the Irish one didn't. (Not strictly true... a lot of English hop growers didn't modernise either, and also went to the wall)

Another choice facing every hop grower is what to do when things reach the end of life. Hop plants don't live forever, and will eventually need replacing. If you have 130,000 of them and they're all reaching EOL, what do you do? The same goes for the poles holding up the wirework. They're all timber, so they eventually need to be replaced.

Double whammy. If you need to mechanise and old garden that's reaching EOL (especially with grants available for various other types of more conventional agriculture) it is quite difficult to justify the outlay.

So... can you really say Guinness drove down the price? If someone else was selling hops cheaper, that's competition.

n97 mini

norrie rugger wrote: »

South east england is quite less wet than here.

SE of England is one of two hop growing regions in England. It's main advantage is not less rain but more sunshine hours. If it had the same amount of rainfall as (e.g.) Carlow the hops would grow just as well. It's other advantage is consistently cold winters which is good for vernalisation.

n97 mini

oblivious wrote: »

Guinness does not malt their barley, they buy malting barley and roast it, not sure if the flake there own, but they may

AFAIK, they do everything bar the malting.

oblivious

n97 mini wrote: »

.The English hops industry mechanised, the Irish one didn't.

The was hand picking till the 60's, i wounder how much of a hop industry was left in Ireland at the time

n97 mini

oblivious wrote: »

The was hand picking till the 60's, i wounder how much of a hop industry was left in Ireland at the time

The last big grower shut down in the early 1990s I think. Not sure, I've never spoken to him personally and different people mention different dates.

BeerNut

n97 mini wrote: »

So... can you really say Guinness drove down the price?

Simon Mosse wrote:

The biggest price I ever got for hops was in 1984 and ever after it just collapsed down and then never rose again really. So it wasn't that hops couldn't be grown in this country but that they couldn't be grown any longer economically in this country.

As Simon Mosse says in this interview (from 7 mins) microbreweries are the only way Irish hops -- which are perfectly ecologically feasible -- will ever become agriculturally viable. The problem is not our climate as against that of England; it's our beer market as against that of England.

I've heard of one Irish farmer who is thinking of putting in hops, or may have done so already. It'll be the microbreweries he'll depend on to buy them. You won't find his hops on anything Smithwick's-branded for a while at least.

n97 mini

BeerNut wrote: »

As Simon Mosse says in this interview (from 7 mins) microbreweries are the only way Irish hops -- which are perfectly ecologically feasible

I believe he is talking about microbreweries growing them for their own consumption....

Which leads me on to why (see below):

BeerNut wrote: »

I've heard of one Irish farmer who is thinking of putting in hops, or may have done so already. It'll be the microbreweries he'll depend on to buy them.

Microbreweries won't pay a premium for Irish hops (why would they), and without a certain level of premium it's not possible to recoup investment in any reasonable time if you're starting a hops business from afresh.

(Guinness wouldn't pay a premium either, and the Irish growers weren't able to compete)

lee_baby_simms

It's quite bland to say the least - no doubt it's been engineered to appeal to as many people as possible, which is fine I guess.

I'll be sticking with O'Haras IPA wherever I can get it. Beautiful stuff.

BeerNut

n97 mini wrote: »

Microbreweries won't pay a premium for Irish hops (why would they)

Because it's a selling point. "Now made with Irish hops". It was a big deal for me when White Gypsy Emerald came out: I think it's a great idea. I'd like to see more beers made with all-Irish ingredients and I'm prepared to pay for them.

n97 mini wrote: »

(Guinness wouldn't pay a premium either, and the Irish growers weren't able to compete)

The less beer you produce, the less this is an issue. I expect to pay €5-6 for 100g of hops and I get to pick pretty much any variety I want. But what I pay is ludicrously expensive for even a small commercial microbrewery. But, because they're using relatively small amounts, they can choose their varieties and design beers to show them off. When you get to Guinness's size you can pay tiny amounts for your materials because you're buying them in massive quantities, but your choice is limited to varieties that suppliers can give you at your price level. For Smithwick's Pale Ale, Diageo have hitched their wagon to Amarillo and are brewing in 250hL batches: tiny for them, and I'd say the hop choice is part of the reason for that. So, no: Diageo won't pay Irish hop prices for Irish hops, and maybe neither would Carlow or The Porterhouse, but that's not to say they wouldn't be economical for smaller breweries. Or indeed amateur brewers.

norrie rugger

I suppose it is simple, in a way, running a business means that you have to use the more cost efficient means. As a hobby, or as a niche beer, it is easier to justify the costs.

Considering that this beer is much more widespread, than even Galway Hooker, it opens up the ale market to an ignorant mass. This is a good thing.
Most people try different lagers, than the mass produced so they will also try other ales.
To be hinest, if this does well it is actually a good thing. Diageo is spending the money to convince publicans that pale ale is a good thing. If this idea sticks then we have a new category, that the smaller beers can now play in. As it stands I imagine that they can not even get past the conversation stage, let Diageo spend their money opening new routs to market

BeerNut

norrie rugger wrote: »

if this does well it is actually a good thing. Diageo is spending the money to convince publicans that pale ale is a good thing. If this idea sticks then we have a new category, that the smaller beers can now play in.

On the other hand (and I'm not disagreeing with you) I've heard one story so far of a publican in a very traditional pub saying he was going to get Galway Hooker in, but then Diageo offered him SPA so he took that instead.

Big Nasty

BeerNut wrote: »

On the other hand (and I'm not disagreeing with you) I've heard one story so far of a publican in a very traditional pub saying he was going to get Galway Hooker in, but then Diageo offered him SPA so he took that instead.

Fair point but it's introduction in itself is creating awareness about craft and speciality beers that wasn't there before. I see it as a positive step in introducing main sream beer drinkers to other alternatives. With any luck the next step will be a transition to domestic brews and speciality beers.

slayerking

Just cracked open a bottle of this now, Its actually quite nice, better than I expected. Quite thin alright, with very little aroma for a beer thats supposedly dry hopped with Amarillo. Theres a little aroma there though. I'd definately pick a pint of this over any of the other general macro swill on draught.

Still not a patch on the likes of Galway Hooker, O'Haras IPA, Helvick Gold et al.

oblivious

n97 mini wrote: »

I

Microbreweries won't pay a premium for Irish hops (why would they), and without a certain level of premium it's not possible to recoup investment in any reasonable time if you're starting a hops business from afresh.

That maybe not so true both Citra and amarillo are prohibitory hops, only the respective hop yards can grow them was the hold the interlitucal property on the genetic code

If and it a bigger if, some starter to look a developing unique hops for the Irish climate that offered unusual aromatic profiles they maybe on to a winner

An a good example is the US where small grower have gotten together to focus on developing unique aromatic hops, where your market is no longer the %AA driver mega breweries

n97 mini

BeerNut wrote: »

Because it's a selling point. "Now made with Irish hops".

One hurdle at a time. First and obvious hurdle is the grain!

BeerNut wrote: »

The less beer you produce, the less this is an issue. I expect to pay €5-6 for 100g of hops and I get to pick pretty much any variety I want. But what I pay is ludicrously expensive for even a small commercial microbrewery.

Yes, and if you look at what you are actually saying, you are kinda proving my point. At €50 per kilo (i.e. home brewer price) hops are profitable, but a micro will only pay between €5 and €8 per kilo. Add 10% premium for Irish hops, and you're still not looking at €10 on a good day. Well short of the sort of premium required to make it viable. (Aside: what Guinness pay is not relevant.)

BeerNut wrote: »

For Smithwick's Pale Ale, Diageo have hitched their wagon to Amarillo and are brewing in 250hL batches: tiny for them, and I'd say the hop choice is part of the reason for that. So, no: Diageo won't pay Irish hop prices for Irish hops,

Ironically (again) Amarillo is one of the more expensive US hops for a number of reasons. But it's still only around the €8 a kilo mark.

n97 mini

oblivious wrote: »

That maybe not so true both Citra and amarillo are prohibitory hops, only the respective hop yards can grow them was the hold the interlitucal property on the genetic code

I dunno if you meant to say prohibitory, but it's pretty much on the mark (the word is proprietary)

oblivious wrote: »

If and it a bigger if, some starter to look a developing unique hops for the Irish climate that offered unusual aromatic profiles they maybe on to a winner

Absolutely and I couldn't agree more, but hop breeding programmes are in the order of 10 to 15 years. That's 10 to 15 years from when you start from an already established programme.