Smithwicks Pale Ale

n97 mini · 26-10-2011 11:41pm

BeerNut wrote: »

So, no: Diageo won't pay Irish hop prices for Irish hops, and maybe neither would Carlow or The Porterhouse, but that's not to say they wouldn't be economical for smaller breweries.

The truth is probably the polar opposite. The bigger micro breweries have spare cash to play with, the smaller ones don't, and are more price-sensitive.

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 12:08am

n97 mini wrote: »

One hurdle at a time. First and obvious hurdle is the grain!

Eh? From what I've heard, The Porterhouse, Franciscan Well and Carlow all use Irish base malt. As well as White Gypsy, of course.

n97 mini wrote: »

a micro will only pay between €5 and €8 per kilo. Add 10% premium for Irish hops, and you're still not looking at €10 on a good day. Well short of the sort of premium required to make it viable.

Where are you getting these numbers from? What is the required market price for the farmer?

n97 mini wrote: »

The truth is probably the polar opposite. The bigger micro breweries have spare cash to play with, the smaller ones don't, and are more price-sensitive.

And yet we see a rolling programme of seasonals from Metalman and Dungarvan. We see Trouble running a home brewers' competition, scaling up a recipe submitted by an amateur. Last year's winner was an all-Galaxy pale ale and Trouble said it was the most they'd ever spent on hops, but they wouldn't consider doing it any other way. Meanwhile, when I suggest to Carlow Brewing that they use rauchmalt as the base malt for the next one in their smoked series, the head brewer tells me that the company won't allow him to buy that much. Your theory doesn't hold up with my experience of the Irish brewing industry.

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 9:23am

BeerNut wrote: »

Eh? From what I've heard, The Porterhouse, Franciscan Well and Carlow all use Irish base malt. As well as White Gypsy, of course.

Yes, they use Irish malt in a minority of beers. In beers where there is no Irish malt Irish hops are not much of a selling point.

BeerNut wrote: »

Where are you getting these numbers from? What is the required market price for the farmer?

Once you know the costs involved the maths are fairly easy.

(They're all public domain, you just need to search hard enough)

BeerNut wrote: »

And yet we see a rolling programme of seasonals from Metalman and Dungarvan. We see Trouble running a home brewers' competition, scaling up a recipe submitted by an amateur. Last year's winner was an all-Galaxy pale ale and Trouble said it was the most they'd ever spent on hops, but they wouldn't consider doing it any other way.... Your theory doesn't hold up with my experience of the Irish brewing industry.

None of them are paying the price premium required to sustain an Irish grower. Take the first two you mentioned. Metalman... NZ hops in their Windjammer beer. NZ hops are in the same price bracket as Amarillo, which they use in their Pale Ale. Dungarvan... Challenger in their Challenger Ale. No more expensive than any other English hop, in fact it's on the cheaper end of the scale.

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 9:35am

n97 mini wrote: »

Yes, they use Irish malt in a minority of beers.

Where are you getting this from? The brewery I have the most reliable information about is Franciscan Well and the Malting Company of Ireland, I've heard, provides the base malt for all their beers. I've no reason to suspect they're unusual in this, of the breweries which use IMC. Have you?

n97 mini wrote: »

(They're all public domain, you just need to search hard enough)

If you've already done the hard searching and easy maths, can we see?

n97 mini wrote: »

None of them are paying the price premium required to sustain an Irish grower.

Which is what?

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 9:52am

BeerNut wrote: »

Where are you getting this from? The brewery I have the most reliable information about is Franciscan Well and the Malting Company of Ireland, I've heard, provides the base malt for all their beers. I've no reason to suspect they're unusual in this, of the breweries which use IMC. Have you?

The FW is in the same county as the MCI, so it makes sense. I'd be very surprised if they use the one type of malt available from the MCI in all their beers, as lager malt is not suitable for a majority of styles.

noby · 27-10-2011 10:40am

n97 mini wrote: »

Yes, they use Irish malt in a minority of beers. In beers where there is no Irish malt Irish hops are not much of a selling point.

The ones that use Irish malt use it as a base malt in practically all their beers. It's the speciality malts that are not as easy to come by here.

As for an Irish hop - I would love to see it happen, and I've spoken to a few interested farmers about it; but while I would use it I would find it hard to replace every hop we currently use with one or two Irish varieties. But who knows?

Also, €5 per kilo, unless you're doing some serious bulk buying of a very common hop that's a really good price.

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 10:53am

noby wrote: »

the speciality malts that are not as easy to come by here .. while I would use it I would find it hard to replace every hop we currently use with one or two Irish varieties

What I would like to see is every Irish brewery having the opportunity to produce one beer made from all-Irish ingredients. And yes, the chances are it'll be a golden ale much like White Gypsy Emerald. Emerald was nice -- I hope there'll be a version from the 2011 harvest soon.

And while it's possible that a future addition to the "Smichwick's Craft Beer" series may be an all-Irish beer (like I say: I think there's money in it), it seems much more likely that the smaller producers will be the ones who have the power to drive Irish hop growing back into production.

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 10:53am

noby wrote: »

Also, €5 per kilo, unless you're doing some serious bulk buying of a very common hop that's a really good price.

I've dug out a pricelist which has most between about €7 and €12 a kilo from a hop factors, which I suspect is what you're talking about. The grower doesn't get that kind of money.

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 10:57am

BeerNut wrote: »

White Gypsy Emerald. Emerald was nice -- I hope there'll be a version from the 2011 harvest soon.

It was sold (out) at the RDS festival. Remember it's a fresh hop ale and the harvest has been long done.

BeerNut wrote: »

it seems much more likely that the smaller producers will be the ones who have the power to drive Irish hop growing back into production.

Only if they grow them themselves. As I said you cannot set up a hop garden from scratch and sell to Irish micros at the prices they expect plus a small premium. That's not to say it can't be done other ways tho.

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 11:09am

n97 mini wrote: »

It was sold (out) at the RDS festival. Remember it's a fresh hop ale and the harvest has been long done.

I took mine in on 15th October and I reckon they'd only been ripe for a couple of weeks before that. Aiming to have my fresh hop ale bottled this weekend and ready to drink by the end of November. But YMMV, eh?

In the interview above Cuilan said his 2010 harvest should do 100,000 bottles. Say 500 HL. Of one beer, in one weekend? You lot certainly were thirsty

n97 mini wrote: »

As I said you cannot set up a hop garden from scratch and sell to Irish micros at the prices they expect plus a small premium.

Just 'cos you say it doesn't make it so.

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 11:31am

There was nowhere near that amount of Emerald.

BeerNut wrote: »

In the interview above Cuilan said his 2010 harvest should do 100,000 bottles.

He quotes 100Kg dried weight which is the top end of what to expect from a healthy established garden of that size.

BeerNut wrote: »

Just 'cos you say it doesn't make it so.

The opposite is equally true!

You're welcome to do the maths. Price the land, equipment, labour, look at yield, current market prices that brewers are paying and then work out how long it'd take you to get back your investment.

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 11:38am

n97 mini wrote: »

There was nowhere near that amount of Emerald.

Where, when?

You're saying that the Emerald at the RDS was 2011 harvest: do you know this for a fact?

You're saying that the Emerald at the RDS was all the Emerald in existence: do you know this for a fact?

Honest questions. I wasn't there and I haven't spoken to Cuilan in ages.

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 11:41am

BeerNut wrote: »

You're saying that the Emerald at the RDS was 2011 harvest: do you know this for a fact?

You're saying that the Emerald at the RDS was all the Emerald in existence: do you know this for a fact?

Yes.

That's what I understood from my conversation with the man who made it.

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 11:44am

n97 mini wrote: »

the harvest has been long done.

Did he say when he harvested them?

Noby, did you harvest any this year?

noby · 27-10-2011 11:54am

What I took I harvested about a month ago - but mine were purely for decoration.

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 11:59am

noby wrote: »

What I took I harvested about a month ago - but mine were purely for decoration.

What variety? Were they the ones that you had in the baskets at your stand at the RDS?

noby · 27-10-2011 12:01pm

Yep - first gold, a dwarf hop. I just have a couple in the back garden - not quite enough to brew with!

oblivious · 27-10-2011 12:01pm

n97 mini wrote: »

What variety?

First gold grows like a weed over here

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 12:01pm

noby wrote:

Yep - first gold, a dwarf hop. I just have a couple in the back garden - not quite enough to brew with!

Well they certainly looked good on your stand!

noby · 27-10-2011 12:03pm

oblivious wrote: »

First gold grows like a weed over here

It's only a weed if you don't want it to grow!

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 12:26pm

Back on topic, I actually had Smithwick's Pale Ale for the first time last night. I had my expectations set really low so as not to be disappointed. I'm also not into knocking Diageo at every opportunity and would like if there was a bit more choice from them.

I got no discernible taste. I could have been drinking a lager.

Krusty_Clown · 27-10-2011 12:31pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Back on topic

Shame. The branched conversation is far more interesting!

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 12:55pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I could have been drinking a lager.

The "premium lager" drinker is who they're aiming it at. They'd be pleased with your observation

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 1:30pm

BeerNut wrote: »

The "premium lager" drinker is who they're aiming it at. They'd be pleased with your observation

By premium I assume you mean Heineken, Carlsbeg, etc., because if that's what they've aimed it at, they've succeeded.

Kid Charlemagne · 27-10-2011 4:02pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Back on topic, I actually had Smithwick's Pale Ale for the first time last night. I had my expectations set really low so as not to be disappointed. I'm also not into knocking Diageo at every opportunity and would like if there was a bit more choice from them.

I got no discernible taste. I could have been drinking a lager.

It most definitely does not taste like the standard lagers in your average pub. It is far nicer and a lot hoppier. All in all a decent addition to the standard draught selection.

A lot of people seem to be comparing it to the kind of stuff you would get in against the grain etc - its never going to win that contest obviously but its definitely better than your normal beers in regular boozers.

calvin_zola · 27-10-2011 4:05pm

lads Im going up to Dublin for a night out in the coming weeks.... any decent pubs that sell a lot of irish microbrewary beer like galway hooker, metalman and dungarvan that ye can give me the whereabouts of.......

BeerNut · 27-10-2011 4:07pm

The yellow pins on this map.

The Bull & Castle, L. Mulligan Grocer, Against the Grain and the two Porterhouses are the best of breed.

Technocentral · 27-10-2011 4:45pm

calvin_zola wrote: »

lads Im going up to Dublin for a night out in the coming weeks.... any decent pubs that sell a lot of irish microbrewary beer like galway hooker, metalman and dungarvan that ye can give me the whereabouts of.......

Tons mate, if your living in Dublin nowadays there's no excuses to drink the big industrial lagers anymore.

Krusty_Clown · 27-10-2011 4:49pm

BeerNut wrote: »

The yellow pins on this map.

The Bull & Castle, L. Mulligan Grocer, Against the Grain and the two Porterhouses are the best of breed.

With O'Neills of Suffolk Street and the Palace Bar trailing behind, but good options if you are out and about.
The BeerMap is excellent. Does it use the same data as the Beoir iPhone app/Beoir directory? (I'm still holding out for the Android app

).
Sorry, heading waaaay off-topic...

n97 mini · 27-10-2011 4:51pm

Kid Charlemagne wrote: »

It most definitely does not taste like the standard lagers in your average pub.

Taste is subjective and batches vary. To me it tasted remarkably similar to a lager and nothing at all like Metalman Pale Ale which also has Amarillo.

Kid Charlemagne wrote: »

It is far nicer and a lot hoppier.

I got zero hops off it. It was served at 2 degrees which was probably killed the minute hop flavour that was possibly present.

Smithwicks Pale Ale

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