Advice on breeding with my dog

patsat

Hi all,

I have a 2 and a half year old St. Bernard male who I would like to breed. there are currently two people who are interested in breeding their bitch with my dog, one is a friend who I wish to take a pup from and the other person wishes to pay for the services of the dog.

My question is what do I do?! Its his first time being used for stud so I dont know what steps to take... ie do I take their dog in or give them mine? is money usually paid up front or when the pups are born?

Hopefully someone can give me a step by step guide, I've searched this forum but can only find info about what health checks to do..( I may do them if all goes well with the first two)

Thanks , oh and here is Tayto!

andreac

Ok, firstly, your dog should not be used for stud until he fully health tested and clear of any breed related diseases, conditions etc.

With Saints, Hip and Elbow scoring is a big thing so you must get these done before he is used for stud, because you run the risk of passing on bad hips/elbows if your dog is not Hip/Elbow scored, so dont even consider breeding your dog until these are done.

Also, you should make sure the bitches are fully health tested as well, as both parents need to be very healthy before breeding.

Have you ever shown your dog and is he a good example of the breed, has he any major faults which would mean he shouldnt be bred from?
These are all the things that should be considered before even thinking about breeding your dog.

Is he registered with the IKC?

With a stud dog, as your dog is not proven, you usually get payment when the bitch has had her pups so you know for def then that the dog is proven.

Usually the bitch comes to the male to be mated when shes ready.

I would recommend you contact the Saint Bernard Breed Club and get their advice regarding a stud fee as i wouldnt know whats the charge for a stud fee.

As your dog is not proven or probably not shown, campaigned at Champ Shows then to be honest, there really wouldnt be much interested in your dog, apart from these people enquiring to you locally.

Do they know that it is very very hard to sell pups these days?? Also the cost of having a litter is huge, even more so with a large breed like a Saint bernard.

I really would urge you to reconsider all of the above until you know your dog is healthy and worthy of being used for stud.

Are you aware that this could change your dogs behaviour/temperament once he has been used for stud?

Hope this helps.

patsat

Thanks for the info!

The main reason for me wanting to stud the dog is to get the pup!

I must contact the breeding club for more advice.

portgirl123

totally agree with andreac, i have just got a st. the owner dogs had i think a litter of 8. ikc reg etc. she was able to sell 3, sold 2 at a greatly reduced price and had to give away 3 as they had cherry eye. mine has thats how i ended up with her. when i got her was told she was fully vac, all she had was her parvo. health tested. yeah ok!!! in fact they are very badly bred pups. mine has had to have op on both eyes, one eye twice and also has developed a big lump on her shoulder, which is a bruise but for some reason her body aint absorbing the blood back into her body like it should. all this and she is only 14 weeks old. her eyes as well as the cherry are badly deformed, can get a op when she has fully grown for cosmetic reason also her hearing is very bad.
So what i think im trying to say unless you have all the health checks please dont bred. its not worth it. vet said her problems are all genetic

andreac

patsat wrote: »

Thanks for the info!

The main reason for me wanting to stud the dog is to get the pup!

I must contact the breeding club for more advice.

Well if thats the case you need to make sure the dgs are all health tested because you dont want to end up with a sick puppy.;)

kylith

Hip, elbows, eyes and any other potential breed related problems need to be checked out. I don't subscribe to the belief that it's necessary to show your dog in order to breed, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have someone knowledgable in the breed have a look at him to make sure that his conformation is good.

andreac

kylith wrote: »

Hip, elbows, eyes and any other potential breed related problems need to be checked out. I don't subscribe to the belief that it's necessary to show your dog in order to breed, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have someone knowledgable in the breed have a look at him to make sure that his conformation is good.

For me it goes hand in hand, you prove your dog is a good example of the breed with little or very minor breed faults then if he is worthy of being awarded a good specimen by breed experts then you health test and if the dog is healthy, then and only then should a dog be used for breeding.

If you dont show your dog then you need to have someone that knows the breed very very well to look at your dog and make sure they dont have an major faults like incorrect bite etc that can potentially be passed on to their off spring.

Many people think they have "perfect" examples of the breed, when that couldnt be further from the truth...:rolleyes: So its these type of dogs that shouldnt be bred from as they are doing nothing to improve the breed whatsoever.

Tranceypoo

He sure is a handsome fella. However, if the sole reason you are doing this is to get one of the pups, wouldn't it be easier to find a reputable St B breeder and get a pup from them when they next have a litter? You would have the added bonus of not adding to the dog population in this already overcrowded (with dogs) country!!

kylith

andreac wrote: »

For me it goes hand in hand, you prove your dog is a good example of the breed with little or very minor breed faults then if he is worthy of being awarded a good specimen by breed experts then you health test and if the dog is healthy, then and only then should a dog be used for breeding.

If you dont show your dog then you need to have someone that knows the breed very very well to look at your dog and make sure they dont have an major faults like incorrect bite etc that can potentially be passed on to their off spring.

Many people think they have "perfect" examples of the breed, when that couldnt be further from the truth...:rolleyes: So its these type of dogs that shouldnt be bred from as they are doing nothing to improve the breed whatsoever.

I don't think it's necessary because there is no necessity for people who show to prove that their dog is healthy before they are shown, and some very unwell dogs have been placed highly in shows. A dog could win best of breed in Crufts, yet have bad hips*, syringomyelia and the like, and could still command weighty stud fees. I know that any decent breeder will health test, but unfortunately not all people who show are decent breeders. If it came to a decision between a rosetted show dog with bad hips and a dog with the wrong colour nose, for example, but good hips I know which I'd prefer.* Ideally I'd like to see full health tests as a requisite for showing.

I would recommend a full health screening, coupled with examination by a breed expert, to ensure that every dog bred is the best possible specimen.

*I'm not an expert; I don't know if bad hips can be picked up on by a judge. Feel free to substitute for the condition of your choice.

andreac

Ive said it with a view to breeding, not showing. So, if you want to breed your dog, it should be proven an excellent specimen of the breed, then if you want to breed the female or stud the male, you get all the health tests carried out and then and only then should you breed your dog.

I understand you dont need to health test to show, but breeders should be ensuring they have healthy dogs in the ring and so therefore can produce healthy stock.

If there are unhealthy dogs being shown and then used for breeding then they are obviously not responsible people or breeders and i dont agree with that at all.

I do think dogs should be shown and be proven a good specimen by experts in the breed to prove they are quality stock and good examples of the breed.

andreac

kylith wrote: »

I would recommend a full health screening, coupled with examination by a breed expert, to ensure that every dog bred is the best possible specimen..

But thats what im saying should be done and thats the way most reputable, responsible breeders do. By showing, they are getting breed experts to give them an opinion on whether their dog is a good specimen of the breed, then if they are deemed that, they health test with a view to breeding.

kylith

andreac wrote: »

But thats what im saying should be done and thats the way most reputable, responsible breeders do. By showing, they are getting breed experts to give them an opinion on whether their dog is a good specimen of the breed, then if they are deemed that, they health test with a view to breeding.

Would you like to argue some more about how much we agree with each other on this? I think the only difference we have is that I don't think showing has to be the preferred way to get this conformation assessment.

If you want to show, grand, do. But not everyone has the time, commitment or inclination to do so. IMO, as long as they make sure everything is spot on before breeding then that's grand too.

Good on you, OP, for going about this the right way. Bernards are lovely dogs, but are done a disservice by bad breeders. I know of one that had to have it's hip done before the age of 2, and will need the other one done before too long.

**Vai**

kylith wrote: »

If you want to show, grand, do. But not everyone has the time, commitment or inclination to do so. IMO, as long as they make sure everything is spot on before breeding then that's grand too.

Couldnt agree more.

Was thinking about breeding my GSD for the same reason as you patsat. Wanted a GSD puppy (mainly because mine has a flat back and good hips) for myself but after researching and asking people with experience it just costs too much, requires too much time and involves too much risk for me to put her through it. Thats for the bitch though. Not trying to put you off or anything, its obviously much less work with the males!

jap gt

jesus very bad wording for a title, i read it and was like :eek:

lovely looking dog though

patsat

Ok so where shall i get this health check done? And where would I find an 'expert' breeder??

Could I just go back to where he was bought and ask them?? ( They show there dogs)

Didnt put much thought into the title!

mymo

A vet will arrange the X rays needed for the hip and elbow scoring, they get sent to the UK. I was advised its €180 or more for a medium dog, due to anesthetic being worked out by weight it'll be pricey for a st bernard.
Eye tests etc, can be arranged through the breed club, they often set dates where you can bring your dog, I got my dog tested that way, eye test was €30 subsidized by the breed club, covered several eye conditions. You get certs for each test done and a report with hip scores.

I was asked to breed my boy, he's apparently a great example of the breed(completely nuts though), but when I thought it through I couldn't. I got him neutered.
I will just buy another pup from the same lines.
All I kept thinking was what happens to the other pups in the litter?
If someone took one and treated it badly or used it as a breeding machine? I would feel guilty or responsible for its misery, but thats just me.
There are so many risks involved, and the costs are huge, its just not worth it.

andreac

What kennels did you buy him from? Are they showing at IKC championship shows?
What kind of pedigree does he have, ie champions etc in it?

The hip and elbow scoring can be done at UCD and i highly recommend them. With the hip and elbow scoring, the x-rays can only be submitted once so you need to make sure that you get the x-rays done somewhere that are experienced with taking them for scoring if you dont go to UCD.

Would you consider showing your dog? If your breeders are regular showers and very qualifed to judge a good dog then they should be able to help you.

Are you sure they havent endorsed your dogs papers though? This would mean you havent got permission to breed from him until they say so, and if he is endorsed then his progeny cannot be IKC registered until this is lifted.

This is usually only lifted if the dog is suitable for breeding and is health tested so this is something i would enquire with the breeder too.

Irishchick

Forget about showing the dog. A very un healthy dog can be a champion in the ring so it wont tell you anything.

Get the hip, elbow and eye tests done. Make sure all vaccines are up to date. Same goes for internal and external parasite treatment.

Also will you provide housing for the bitch? Some people do as it gives potential for multiple matings over the day. If yes youll need to provide a clean safe and secure area.

If that all turns out ok then take the next step which would be to interview potential customers.

Make sure you find out what the owner intends to do with the pups and if the home is suitable.

Best of luck and let us know what you decide to do.

mymo

I don't believe just health testing is a good idea, I know of someone breeding the breed I have, the dogs have pink or pink and black noses, this is a major fault for the breed. They were recently asked to do a genetic test on the dogs as it is believed by the club that they are not full breed as their papers say.(there are other issues too)
She refuses and continues to sell these pups as full breed. The issue is they could be bred back into other lines and dilute the breed.

kylith

mymo wrote: »

I don't believe just health testing is a good idea, I know of someone breeding the breed I have, the dogs have pink or pink and black noses, this is a major fault for the breed. They were recently asked to do a genetic test on the dogs as it is believed by the club that they are not full breed as their papers say.(there are other issues too)
She refuses and continues to sell these pups as full breed. The issue is they could be bred back into other lines and dilute the breed.

But who cares? If it looks like a Bernard, and acts like a Bernard what does it matter that it's nose is pink? It could well be a perfectly normal colour variation for the dog. The only reason I'd DNA test is if she's charging pedigree prices for them. Hells, getting some fresh blood in could be fantastic for the breed.

andreac

Irishchick wrote: »

Forget about showing the dog. A very un healthy dog can be a champion in the ring so it wont tell you anything.

.

Sorry, but i dont agree. I was saying you should show your dog first, be proved worthy of being a champion and a good specimen by breed specialists, then if thats the case then you can look into health testing with a view to breeding.

Not all people that show their dogs breed so its really when you go to breed your dogs that the health testing needs to be carried out, plus usually when showing, you can only health test once a dog is fully grown, so that is why you can show first then carry out health testing when the dog is ready to be tested.

Shammy

kylith wrote: »

But who cares? If it looks like a Bernard, and acts like a Bernard what does it matter that it's nose is pink? It could well be a perfectly normal colour variation for the dog. The only reason I'd DNA test is if she's charging pedigree prices for them. Hells, getting some fresh blood in could be fantastic for the breed.

On a St. Bernard with a pink nose , is much more likely to get sunburnt , causing distress for the dog, also dogs with pink noses that are not supposed to be pink are more prone to cancer.

mymo

The breed is not a st bernard, just using the example.
The pink nose is not the only issue, there are issues with the shape size and coat of these particular dogs.
What I am trying to say is this lady has hip scored her dogs and is selling them as good examples of the breed when they are not, and infact may not even be full breed.

You don't have to show a dog, but get it checked over by someone in the know, a judge of the breed would be a good start. At least you know its a good example of the breed, you can then go for health tests

kylith

mymo wrote: »

The breed is not a st bernard, just using the example.
The pink nose is not the only issue, there are issues with the shape size and coat of these particular dogs.
What I am trying to say is this lady has hip scored her dogs and is selling them as good examples of the breed when they are not, and infact may not even be full breed.

You don't have to show a dog, but get it checked over by someone in the know, a judge of the breed would be a good start. At least you know its a good example of the breed, you can then go for health tests

If they differ so much then they probably aren't entirely Breed X. In situations like that it pays for the buyer to have done their homework and be able to say 'why is it too big/small? Why isn't it smooth coated?' or whatever.

Unfortunately there will always be con men, which is why buyers need to be more informed, although that requires them to care more than some of them do.

Is it thought that she forged the KC papers or are they not reg?

lrushe

Firstly showing has to go hand in hand with health testing, one should not trump the other in importance.

Secondly even the smallest things in a breed standard matter because as soon as you start changing those you start changing the breed into something else.

OP, do you really need to breed your dog to get a pup for yourself. I have a dog who to me is picture perfect, if I was to write down what I wanted in the breed before I got her I couldn't have gotten a better dog. That said I will never breed her, when she is gone I will go back to her breeder and get another pup from her bloodlines.
If however you have your heart set on breeding your guy please take note of the advice given in the second post of the thread and you won't go far wrong. Best of luck.

area51

Sorry, this is not me giving out to you but why do people feel the need to breed their dogs.
I have a full breed Alaskan Malamute(nuetered) and people always ask, are you gonna breed him, and they are shocked when I say he is nuetered and I would not breed my dogs anyway, WHY...........?
Because Breeding should be left to professionals who know what they are doing and breed to make the dog breed better. There are thousands of good healthy dogs of all breeds that get put down every month in Ireland. why.... because there are to many dogs so why add to these poor dogs statistics.

Why not try the Rescues and see if there is a nice dog who would love a nice home or find a reputable St. Bernard breeder.

Cherry Blossom

Mod post:

area51 - since you are new here this is just friendly advice - This is a general animal and pets forum aimed at joe public. This is not an animal welfare forum and pushing of rescue dogs on threads where the poster has not asked where to source a dog from will not go down well. Off-topic posting is not tolerated, please familiarise yourself with the forum charter.

carwash_2006

One comment on top of all the excellent advice already given here. You do realise that a pup from your dog may not have any real resemblance in character or any of the other things that make you love your dog. You need to take the bitches character and environmental factors into account too.

I know someone that wanted to breed from her bitch because she was such a wonderful dog. She ended up with one puppy, but that puppy was nothing like her mother. She was one of the most stressed out dogs and caused quite a bit of trouble.

You would do much better to do as others suggest and get another pup from the same source if that is your main reason for wanting to breed your guy. Especially if the owners of the bitches are also inexperienced breeders. The environment the pups are reared in is so important the pup could end up with behavioural problems due to a less than ideal environment. Just another thing to take into account in the minefield that is dog breeding.

area51

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Mod post:

area51 - since you are new here this is just friendly advice - This is a general animal and pets forum aimed at joe public. This is not an animal welfare forum and pushing of rescue dogs on threads where the poster has not asked where to source a dog from will not go down well. Off-topic posting is not tolerated, please familiarise yourself with the forum charter.

point taken, but wasn't trying to push off rescue dogs, just giving options, I also mentioned breeders.
apologies to the topic starter