Easiest way to wire up an outdoor socket??

cast_iron

I explained in post 17 why the existing setup is not ideal. And robbie clarified in the following post this is separate to the pond job.

Also, the switch you need should be 2 gang double pole. By what you are saying, you have an ordinary light switch and that won't really do.

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

I explained in post 17 why the existing setup is not ideal. And robbie clarified in the following post this is separate to the pond job.

Also, the switch you need should be 2 gang double pole. By what you are saying, you have an ordinary light switch and that won't really do.

With regards the outdoor junction box.........

Ive taken both your advice (thankyou too ) and am going from the fuseboard with a 20 amp Hagar RCBO and the new 20 meter run of 2.5 T&E to the switch plate location,and then a 10 meter run of 4 core 2.5 SWA from the switch plate out to where the junction box will be located on the garden wall.

Im presuming that 4 core 2.5 SWA is good enough for a pond pump and a set of LED garden lights??


P.S-I,ll chack the fuseboard and amp ratings of the 2 RCDs for the kitchen tomorrow.

cast_iron

The 4 core will be fine.
The switch probably won't be as I think I've asked 3 times is it 2 pole and not got an answer.
The remarks about the existing utility sockets are completely separate to the pond, and are an observation on the dryer/dishwasher/washing machine won't suffice on the one circuit the way you described. robbie also mentioned they should have a dp switch each. But you seem to ignore all this too.

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

The 4 core will be fine.
The switch probably won't be as I think I've asked 3 times is it 2 pole and not got an answer.
The remarks about the existing utility sockets are completely separate to the pond, and are an observation on the dryer/dishwasher/washing machine won't suffice on the one circuit the way you described. robbie also mentioned they should have a dp switch each. But you seem to ignore all this too.

Regarding the 4 core SWA,thanks.:)

Im not ignoring anything at all.Im simply trying to figure it all out.

If I was an electricain,the I wouldnt feel the need or even have the need to be posting here asking questions,would I???;)


So are you saying that each applience (dryer,washing machine and dishwasher) needs its own seperate neon switch plate then??

So that would be 3 of them on the wall then??

cast_iron

paddy147 wrote: »

Im not ignoring anything at all.

Well I'll ask for the 4th time then about the 2 gang dp switch you bought for the pump/lgts then?:pac:

If I was an electricain,the I wouldnt feel the need or even have the need to be posting here asking questions,would I???;)

If everyone on here was an electrician threads like this wouldn't exist. Where's the fun in that?:)

So are you saying that each applience (dryer,washing machine and dishwasher) needs its own seperate neon switch plate then??

So that would be 3 of them on the wall then??

Yes, that is what is being said. It is also being said these 3 appliances will not work together on one circuit as the loads involved are too high. That's why robbie said run an extra circuit in now for these appliances (in addition to the circuit for outside).

M cebee

bit late for me and i haven't been paying much attention

but yes i reckon every appliance should have a separate isolating switch-rather than 1 switch isolating all the inaccessible sockets together

M cebee

yes and agree also

2 radials for the worktop double socket and 3 appliances would be required

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

Well I'll ask for the 4th time then about the 2 gang dp switch you bought for the pump/lgts then?:pac:

If everyone on here was an electrician threads like this wouldn't exist. Where's the fun in that?:)

Yes, that is what is being said. It is also being said these 3 appliances will not work together on one circuit as the loads involved are too high. That's why robbie said run an extra circuit in now for these appliances (in addition to the circuit for outside).

Well I presume thats its a DP switch plate,as thats what I asked for in the wholesalers.



Thats the reason why I posted here and asked the questions,to seek advice from those in the know.


Well then I will have to bash my walls to bits and start cutting holes through tiled kitchen wall in order to fit a DP neon switch for each of those 3 appliances.

Ive not seen any of my families or friends modern houses and kitchens with a DP neon switch on the wall for every single appliance.

M cebee

every appliance requires an accessible isolating switch

paddy147

M cebee wrote: »

every appliance requires an accessible isolating switch

Well Ive never seen a kitchen with a seperate wall mounted DP neon switch plate for every single appliance.

Your average kitchen then would need at least 5-6 switches on the kitchen wall.

Fridgefreezer
Oven
Cooker
Washing Machine
Dryer
Dishwasher


So thats how you all wire kitchens up then???

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

bit late for me and i haven't been paying much attention

Pay attention there you:pac:

Bruthal

paddy147 wrote: »

Well Ive never seen a kitchen with a seperate wall mounted DP neon switch plate for every single applience.

Your average kitchen then would need at least 5-6 switches on the kitchen wall then.

Fridgefreezer
Oven
Cooker
Washing Machine
Dryer
Dishwser

Cooker and oven have always had them anyway. Now any appliance where its socket is hidden or not easily accessible requires one. Not necessarily needed on every appliance, only ones with hard to access sockets.

It would certainly make fault finding a lot easier.

paddy147

robbie7730 wrote: »

Cooker and oven have always had them anyway. Now any appliance where its socket is hidden or not easily accessible requires one. Not necessarily needed on every appliance, only ones with hard to access sockets.

It would certainly make fault finding a lot easier.

Well my cooker,oven and fridge freezer are covered by their own switches,thank god.:)

And theres the washing machine,dryer and dishwasher on the other neon switch.

And thats how any of my familes,friends or relations modern houses and kitchens I have been in,are done.

paddy147

Im going to bow out for tonight,as I have a few cold beers sitting here,with my name on them.:D

Thanks for the advice and also thanks for the advice so far on the outdoor junction box.

I know how to wire up an RCD but am a tad unsure as to wiring up a Hagar 20 amp RCBO.

So maybe someone could advize me or show me what way its wired up.

Thanks.:)

cast_iron

paddy147 wrote: »

And thats how any of my familes,friends or relations modern houses and kitchens I have been in,are done.

That doesn't make it right unfortunately. Sept 2009 i think the regs changed.
Washing machine/ dryer usually wouldn't be in the kitchen of a house anyway.
A DP switch to a dedicated single under-counter skt would be ideal.

All of that still sidesteps the problem that those 3 appliances won't work on a single circuit at the same time - switches or no switches.

Does the switch you bought not say what it is on the packet? 20A DP should be there somewhere if it's the right one.

M cebee

paddy147 wrote: »

Well Ive never seen a kitchen with a seperate wall mounted DP neon switch plate for every single appliance.

Your average kitchen then would need at least 5-6 switches on the kitchen wall.

Fridgefreezer
Oven
Cooker
Washing Machine
Dryer
Dishwasher


So thats how you all wire kitchens up then???

yes pretty much

i don't like that 1 isolating switch for 3 appliances at all myself

indie armada

could 3 individual 20 amp dp switches be fed from that radial circut that is currently feeding the single dp switch, or should each applience have its own separate feed from the board to its own 20 amp dp switch. in the unlikely case that all 3 appliences are on would a single 20 amp dp cope with the load?

also with respect to the feed to the pump/lights, why is a dp switch nesecery in this instance. is it because the feed is going outdoors or because of the pump.

cast_iron

indie armada wrote: »

could 3 individual 20 amp dp switches be fed from that radial circut that is currently feeding the single dp switch, or should each applience have its own separate feed from the board to its own 20 amp dp switch. in the unlikely case that all 3 appliences are on would a single 20 amp dp cope with the load?

You can feed multiple dp switches from the one MCB, however, in this case, those 3 appliances on together will cause it to trip out. The MCB would trip out before the load would become a problem for the dp.

And it's not that unlikely to have these 3 appliances on together!
It would happen regular at home in my house.

also with respect to the feed to the pump/lights, why is a dp switch nesecery in this instance. is it because the feed is going outdoors or because of the pump.

To provide safe and easy isolation if working on the electrics. And to provide paddy with convenient switches

Bruthal

Double pole switches can also isolate outside circuits if they are causing nuisance tripping, especially if the outside circuit is spurred from a socket circuit in the house. A neutral - earth fault would trip the RCD/RCBO, and a single pole switch would not clear the fault.

The DP switch is probably a little too far from the pond pump and lights to technically qualify as a method of isolation for working on the items, if a JB is used outside.

indie armada

in this instance the circut is on its own rcbo, so is having dp switches really nesecery as it can be isolated at the board without any disruption to the house and if it was tripping due to fault only that circut would be affected.
im not disagreeing with the advice, just trying to understand it.

its probably goin to be difficult for pady to get a 2gang dp switch in that range, providing he wants to keep all his switches the same.

also what would be his options if he wanted to put one of the appliences on the same circut as the pond and lights,using the new t&e.
would it be posible to put a second dp switch in for the dryer for example and spur off that for the pond and lights. would this not split up the overloaded circuts and if something in the garden did trip, only the dryer would be affected.

paddy147

cast_iron wrote: »

That doesn't make it right unfortunately. Sept 2009 i think the regs changed.
Washing machine/ dryer usually wouldn't be in the kitchen of a house anyway.

Arte you 100% sure about the regs being changed back in 2009 with regards wiring a kitchen up???

Because the electrical company that I used wired up the kitchen last year,and the kitchen was only installed last year (June 2010),and I think I will be making a call to them about the matter of the kitchen wiring,if you are 100% sure on the reg changes.



Well the usual place for these items is in a kitchen in most houses.

So where would they be then???

Because not every house,either newly built or old house would have the likes of a utility room or a garage,in which to put a washing machine and dryer.

In fact most recently built and new built houses just have a general/basic kitchen/dining area these days.

paddy147

Anyway,this is getting away from the wiring for the pond pump and lights.

Can anyone advize me on how to wire the Hagar RCBO please?

Ive wired in a few normal 20 amp RCD,s and double sockets before,but Ive not done an RCBO yet.
Any help or advice on how to wire it up please?

Thanks.:)

M cebee

paddy147 wrote: »

Arte you 100% sure about the regs being changed back in 2009 with regards wiring a kitchen up???

Because the electrical company that I used wired up the kitchen last year,and the kitchen was only installed last year (June 2010),and I think I will be making a call to them about the matter of the kitchen wiring,if you are 100% sure on the reg changes.



Well the usual place for these items is in a kitchen in most houses.

So where would they be then???

Because not every house,either newly built or old house would have the likes of a utility room or a garage,in which to put a washing machine and dryer.

In fact most recently built and new built houses just have a general/basic kitchen/dining area these days.

Ime separate utility is the norm

Dont have rules handy but i doubt a shared isolating switch complies

.G.

paddy147 wrote: »

Arte you 100% sure about the regs being changed back in 2009 with regards wiring a kitchen up???

Because the electrical company that I used wired up the kitchen last year,and the kitchen was only installed last year (June 2010),and I think I will be making a call to them about the matter of the kitchen wiring,if you are 100% sure on the reg changes.



Well the usual place for these items is in a kitchen in most houses.

So where would they be then???

Because not every house,either newly built or old house would have the likes of a utility room or a garage,in which to put a washing machine and dryer.

In fact most recently built and new built houses just have a general/basic kitchen/dining area these days.

Annex 55a in the rules states

".......socket outlets that are not readily accessible,e.g. behind or under kitchen furniture or stationary appliances,must be provided with double pole switches rated at 20A in accessible positions e.g. on the wall above the worktop,suitably labelled.This is to enable the immediate disconnection of the appliance ,e.g a washing machine, in the case of an emergency."

Seems pretty clear to me.Each appliance needs its own switch which would in practice mean that each appliance should have its own supply since more than one could easily overload a 20A circuit

paddy147

Right so,the electrician wh did the wiring for my kitchen will be getting and interesting phone call from me in the morning then.

M cebee

An accessible switched socket or isolating switch for each appliance

i think that's about it

.G.

M cebee wrote: »

An accessible switched socket or isolating switch for each appliance

i think that's about it

Agreed.

He dosent HAVE to give each of them their own feed but they should each have their own DP switch

cast_iron

superg wrote: »

Seems pretty clear to me.Each appliance needs its own switch which would in practice mean that each appliance should have its own supply since more than one could easily overload a 20A circuit

I'm not so sure that explicitly means each appliance must have a separate switch. You could read it to say a few sockets could be covered by one switch - since it doesn't say otherwise.
Though I thought the rules were fairly explicit in stating each appliance should have its own switch. Is that the full wording?

In terms of practicality, separate switches would be more ideal - you don't want to be plugging out the fridge if the dishwasher has developed a problem.

paddy147 wrote:

Right so,the electrician wh did the wiring for my kitchen will be getting and interesting phone call from me in the morning then.

Well it could be debatable as stated above.
And I'll say it again - I would argue a more important problem would be the loading of those 3 items on the one circuit as a bigger issue.
Though maybe he wasn't to know what was being plugged in where and appliances may have been moved since the original plans.

.G.

cast_iron wrote: »

I'm not so sure that explicitly means each appliance must have a separate switch. You could read it to say a few sockets could be covered by one switch - since it doesn't say otherwise.
Though I thought the rules were fairly explicit in stating each appliance should have its own switch. Is that the full wording?

In terms of practicality, separate switches would be more ideal - you don't want to be plugging out the fridge if the dishwasher has developed a problem.

Well it could be debatable as stated above.
And I'll say it again - I would argue a more important problem would be the loading of those 3 items on the one circuit as a bigger issue.
Though maybe he wasn't to know what was being plugged in where and appliances may have been moved since the original plans.

its not great wording I agree but it does say socket outlets(plural) should be protected by DP switches(plural) so to me that means each one has its own.
the fact it also states that the purpose is to disconnect the appliance(singular) would suggest to me that each switch does one appliance

Bruthal

superg wrote: »

Seems pretty clear to me.Each appliance needs its own switch which would in practice mean that each appliance should have its own supply since more than one could easily overload a 20A circuit

I wouldnt agree with each appliance needing its own supply. If the 20 amp circuit is overloaded, thats what the 20 amp MCB is there for, in the same way any socket circuits work.

Since each appliance has its own 20 amp switch, the switch itself wont ever be overloaded.

A washing machine and dryer can easily work on one circuit etc. In paddys case, he has 3 items on one circuit which is not great.