religous teaching in primary schools

Long Term Louth

Realistically you have a number of choices here to satisfy your personal requirements,
See which schools accomodate your wishes, by identifying what policies are implemented (not written) in the schools in your area.

As your children are of school attending age, I think you stated? then make your decision on what the best option available to you is.

I think if you allow this issue to develop into some form of legal quandry, then ultimatley your childs current needs will not be met.

magneticimpulse

tadhgmorris wrote: »

its not a question of subjects as in english or math and liking or them or not. its a question of my kids being told what they are being taught in religion class is fact. that this happened. not that its open to i suppose interpretation. when math is taught yes we take it as fact, when geography the same. so you cant really just give an example of subjects and saying the student likes or dislikes a subject to base their cooperation with the subject. i suppose the nearest example like that i would think of is being taught history but giving very inaccurate stories and telling the student this is all fact.

i or my kids are not trying to convert anybody or anything like that. i simply would rather my kids not be taught what i believe to be fairy tales as being total truths.

as for kids developing their own thoughts. well kids especially small kids are so impressionable and will believe whatever you tell them. if a teacher tells them the earth for example is 4000 years old and we all started from adam and eve they will believe this. ok you will say i can correct their ideas from home. but how can i explain to a 5 year old that listen to everything else you teacher says but just this little bit is horse doo doo and pay no attention to it.

As for the dress code in Muslim countries well this dress code is enforced by the intermingled government and religion. enforced by law. so yes people will abide by the law. but last time i looked i am not breaking any law by not attending mass each Sunday am i. and keeping the peace in ireland by respecting its culture, well what if in our culture as you say kids were taught the earth was flat and the sun is a god to be worshiped would you rebel then, would you say oh i think i would not like my very impressionable 5 year old to be learning this. well thats the position i am at i believe my kids will be taught (what i consider) a whole world of nonsense. 7

also if you for some reason had to emigrate to live in a muslim country and bring your kids and put them into that countries educational system with the other everyday muslim kids. and they are taught every day muslim religious values and that their muslim religion is the road to salvation and that they should practise and attend for prayer would you be singing the joys of it. no you would not. because it would offend what you believe, and go against how you would like your children to be educated. now be honest with your reply.

this reply is mostly directed at magneticimpulse (just to make that clear

To be honest I would not have a personal problem with Religion, but my concern would be the crap standard of Science and Maths in Irish schools. I would be thinking about my childrens future careers, job prospect and religion would be the last concern on the list.

I assume your children never believed in Santa Claus...because that would be lying to them and not true??

Everything which a 5 year old encounters can be interpretated in the same way. What about all the crap cartoons etc that are not true? Harry Potter? At that age I think 5 year olds are more clever then you think they are. It is a prime example they themselves have to decide, what is true and what is fantasy/story made up to explain stuff more easily?

At that age I had decided to become vegetarian because in Catholic school I was told to repect everything and we were all "gods" creatures. Sure I laugh about it now because I am a scientist disgussing this with people who test animals for a living. Thou people are amazed that I could make such an informed choice at such a young age. I am proud that because of the religion classes I had, I was able to clearly decide in my head right from wrong and to have respect for all creatures. Just because I couldnt communicate with animals didnt mean I should eat them...this all stemed from religious classes. I am still vegetarian and it is in my backbone to still respect all creatures. Im just trying to give you another insight that religion is not all negative..

Another time religion helped me at that age (and what i was taught in catholic school) was the death of my grandfather. I remember going to the church for his funeral. It was the 1st time i ever heard about death. I was of course really sad...but everyone told me he had gone to heaven but his spirit was still alive. At that age, I really felt this strong power of spiritual being (that of course as an adult i dont feel). It really helped me overcome his death. It was nice to know he was safe. I remember my family being upset too...and I would come out with comments like Holy god is looking after him. Sure we know its all nonsense...but sometimes it really does help you get through life. However if I had the athiest interpretation: he wasted away, his cells died, hes gone forever and currently rotting away in the ground becoming compost...I think at 5 I would have been tramatised for life.

I also was able to point out at 6 years old to my teacher that the countries in the world were all joined together millions of years ago...because I read books at home. If I look back I would be more concerned that Science was never taught at Primary school. And History and Geography didnt start until 3rd class when I was about 9.

I dont see the harm in religion...i think there should be more energy trying to get a more factual education younger. I think its no harm to discuss Adam and Eve to children...because you are less likely to discuss sexual intercourse? Children need to know the facts...but I think not all the facts at the same age. Whereas sure I agree Science, other subjects should start younger. The point being they could quickly distinguish: religion = spiritual well being/morals; science = physical life

I just wanted to give you an insight..that although my parents controlled what I learnt at home. My schooling helped me deal with lots of different situations in life...religion helped to describe things in a nice way regarding others and death. So although you think your children will be better off without...your adult opinions are not always the right ones. I think they should be able to decide for themselves. Given the tools and take away what they will.

I still think it is really important to have some sort of "Spiritual" teachings to overcome social problems and cope in life....death, birth, friendships. We did do Civics in school....but it is not really spiritual.

Also as a scientist...I think it is really essential to have strong ethical beliefs. Is it right to do stem cell research? Is it right to test on animals? Is it right to clone people? Is it right to have geneticially modified babies?

All the above questions I think are easier to answer because I also had a religious education and established my morals from these. In Catholic Ireland...can we have schools that might not teach full on Catholic syllabus but still keeps ethics and morals as a subject? How would you teach these to children without making fake stories up...instead of Adam and Eve talk about Barney and Bob???

Musiconomist

tadhgmorris wrote: »

hi.
wasn´t sure which category to post this. hopefully this will be ok.

We are an atheist family. and as such i do not want my two kids one beginning primary next next sept to be taught any catholic teachings. i am living in rural ireland and dont have many choices to send them to. i dont want to be a pain or a difficulty to the school, but i have to insist that my kids are not exposed to the same catholic teachings that i was. so my question is simply what rights do we have as an irish family living and working in ireland. and how will a small primary school with limited resources accommodate my children. what advice would you have for me. i dont want to see my kids being made to look different amongst the others. but i cannot allow my kids to learn a philosophy which we do not follow. for example if we were another strict non catholic religion how would the family manage in the school. i am further concerned when it comes to a communion and confirmation year. from my memory a large percentage of time was devoted to this. so will my kids be lacking a large percentage of learning while the other kids go ahead with preparation for their comm and confirmation. so please help with some constructive advice please.

thank you in advance.

Hmmm yeah. If I was you I'd be more worried about the reception you'll receive in hell.

Seriously though, as a fellow atheist, I dont like the idea of the majority of Irelands schools being Catholic "by default". Why arent there are more non-faith schools? I think religous education and education shouldnt mix at all, as they have no relevance to each other. Also, were I a school teacher, I would not be comfortable teaching religion in any form.

dkin

magneticimpulse wrote: »

The athiest out there like to think it is a Republic and of Non Religion. (I just read the above post...as far as I was thought...the "stories" in the Bible are never seen as "fact"...unless I missed a fatal error in my Catholic upbringing...but the whole point of the religious teachings is that it is not factual...they are moral stories to guide people in life. It was based on a culture before TV and newspapers.)

If you are a catholic then you *must* treat the bible as absolute fact there is no such thing as 'a la carte' catholicism where you pick and choose the bits you like. If you don't believe part of the doctrine you are not catholic rather some form of protestant.

People do not actually think God is some guy in the sky with a white beard...its open to interpretation.

Once again if you are catholic it's *not* open to interpretation, there is a set doctrine which you are supposed to believe.

It is because humans need to visualise something. No matter if you are Richard Dawkins or Stephan Hawkings...the fact is...the earth was created...we dont know what created it because none of us existed when it was created. We can speculate. So the Bible is mans interpretation at a time when he didnt know about technology.

If you are a catholic the bible is not 'man's interpretation' it is the word of God.

Also you could argue History is not fact!!! You might think it is, but it is not always taught in that way. History is subjective to the viewpoint of who writes it. Ie the person who started the war is not going to tell the whole truth etc. vice versa. History is usually one sided depending on which country it is taught in and what is involved.).

The point of the bible is that it is the word of God and *not* subjective, at least not in the way that you think. You are meant to reflect on the meaning of parables and so forth but you must also adhere to a fairly strict inflexible doctrine.

It is a majority Catholic country. Look at majority of towns in Ireland...it consists of shop, pub and Catholic Church along with schools...which as you say 97 % are Catholic. According to Wikipedia (ref on there) Ireland in 2006 was 87 % Roman Catholic. Of course there has been a census in 2011 and that will give more up to date result. Ireland is not the USA. Every religion or non religion is not catered for in Ireland because of its history that it is based on a Roman Catholic population.

There are a lot of people in Ireland who like to call themselves Catholic but they're not Catholic as they don't accept the teachings of the church in full. I can call myself a good person doesn't necessarily make it true.

As a result of the 2011 census, there will be an indication if we need to change schools in area's to non religion. However as you mention there is already an organisation ET in place in larger areas. Rural areas are most likely to be prodominently Catholic with Roman Catholic schools.

I do not know what the OP is expecting as an outcome. Of course it is an option for the children to draw pictures/read during religionous classes. But it is going to be very difficult for the child to close its ears and not hear songs and prayers.

As I've already listed the Catholic church in this country is largely a sham and primarily concerned with power and its reputation. It doesn't even enforce it's own doctrine anymore. The Catholic church of the fifties and earlier was closer to the real thing.

I find it interesting because I saw the couple on The Late Late Show. I thought they were very naive when they said their child came home from Catholic school believing in God and discussing God. Despite the fact that the couple discussed with the teachers/Catholic school that the child would paint/study/draw during religion. Since the child was in the class it started to take an interest in the religious prayers/songs/stories. The couple on the Late Late Show were completely shocked and disgusted. One I thought, it is totally out of proportion. I didnt like studying Languages in school...but I had to. My parents would never go to the Late Late Show and complain how dare my child learn Irish and French when we never use such a language at home???

Well in effect an organisation that many people consider corrupt, parasitic and aloof is gaining direct access to their children and trying to indoctrinate them into a belief system to which they are completely opposed and attempting to establish the church permanently in the childs mind as a form of moral authority to which the child defer to and look for guidance from in future years. Taken from a different viewpoint to your own it is shocking and disgusting.

I think it is very difficult for the OP to exclude his children from Catholic religion if he sends them to a Roman Catholic church. I am not a very religous person myself, in fact im a Doctor. I just know that I grin and bare the religion during school...just as well as Irish, English and French. In the end it made me a resilient person to other people...easier to accept thing.

What about questioning the world around you and asking *why* should you have to grin and bear it. In fact this is on of the key tenants of catholicism they don't want you asking those questions and trying to figure out the answer yourself they want you to defer to them for leadership and do what you're told aka 'grin and bear it'.

How do you know it made you a more resilient person? Is it possible that you could have spent your time in school learning about things that would have had a much more positive effect on you for the rest of your life. The whole point of the the subject was to convince you that you needed this information and that it is important above and beyond other information even though that claim is highly dubious.

I currently live in France. Here it is a joke. They claim it is a Republic. That the state and church are seperate. Schools have no religion at all, no uniforms etc. I see the 12 year olds outside school smoking with their teacher during breaks. The girls are dolled up and wearing the latest designer clothes. The people are agresive with each other. They have no morals...need we reflect on the Ireland-France soccer game and the hand ball?? They are pushy and arogant, especially men. The French do not tolerate the muslims in their society etc. I could go on and on about France and the UK.

Uniforms prevent children wearing designer clothes in Ireland not religion. A lot of foreign people consider the Irish to be arrogant loud, badly educated, highly insular, uncultured and obnoxious this is their subjective opinion as you have your own about Ireland. Thierry Henry's hand ball is not sufficient to judge a whole race of people, I heard plenty of people in Dublin saying how delighted they would have been if it was Robbie Keane and the other end of the pitch. Pushy and arrogant? Want to get into the list of irish stereotypes?

The joke is that all their public holidays are based on Religous Catholic Days. Everything shuts on a Sunday because it is the day of "church".

In many cases in Ireland most shops open on Sundays. Therefore is France more or less religious than us?

I go back to Ireland and I appreciate the culture. The morals and respect that people have. The structure of the schools. The uniforms kids wear. The respect and morals people have for each other. People stop and wait 5 secs to let you pass. Sure humans are not so different, but I see more kindness in Irish people. What is the difference between France and Ireland? I think it comes down to the Religion in School.

I am sure many French people go through identical emotions when returning to France. You have a personal preference for Ireland above France, in your introspective quest to pin point the reason you have identified your religious upbringing as a significant cultural difference between the way you were brought up and the way you see those around you brought up. In reality the answer is far more complex. I blame mass consumerism myself and advertising agencies fine tuning and exploiting many of the persuasive techniques originally honed by the church to spread their message.

tadhgmorris

magneticimpulse wrote:

To be honest I would not have a personal problem with Religion, but my concern would be the crap standard of Science and Maths in Irish schools. I would be thinking about my childrens future careers, job prospect and religion would be the last concern on the list.

I assume your children never believed in Santa Claus...because that would be lying to them and not true??

Everything which a 5 year old encounters can be interpretated in the same way. What about all the crap cartoons etc that are not true? Harry Potter? At that age I think 5 year olds are more clever then you think they are. It is a prime example they themselves have to decide, what is true and what is fantasy/story made up to explain stuff more easily?

At that age I had decided to become vegetarian because in Catholic school I was told to repect everything and we were all "gods" creatures. Sure I laugh about it now because I am a scientist disgussing this with people who test animals for a living. Thou people are amazed that I could make such an informed choice at such a young age. I am proud that because of the religion classes I had, I was able to clearly decide in my head right from wrong and to have respect for all creatures. Just because I couldnt communicate with animals didnt mean I should eat them...this all stemed from religious classes. I am still vegetarian and it is in my backbone to still respect all creatures. Im just trying to give you another insight that religion is not all negative..

Another time religion helped me at that age (and what i was taught in catholic school) was the death of my grandfather. I remember going to the church for his funeral. It was the 1st time i ever heard about death. I was of course really sad...but everyone told me he had gone to heaven but his spirit was still alive. At that age, I really felt this strong power of spiritual being (that of course as an adult i dont feel). It really helped me overcome his death. It was nice to know he was safe. I remember my family being upset too...and I would come out with comments like Holy god is looking after him. Sure we know its all nonsense...but sometimes it really does help you get through life. However if I had the athiest interpretation: he wasted away, his cells died, hes gone forever and currently rotting away in the ground becoming compost...I think at 5 I would have been tramatised for life.

I also was able to point out at 6 years old to my teacher that the countries in the world were all joined together millions of years ago...because I read books at home. If I look back I would be more concerned that Science was never taught at Primary school. And History and Geography didnt start until 3rd class when I was about 9.

I dont see the harm in religion...i think there should be more energy trying to get a more factual education younger. I think its no harm to discuss Adam and Eve to children...because you are less likely to discuss sexual intercourse? Children need to know the facts...but I think not all the facts at the same age. Whereas sure I agree Science, other subjects should start younger. The point being they could quickly distinguish: religion = spiritual well being/morals; science = physical life

oh look , your talking about cartoons and harry potter, i mean really , of course i can explain that the sponge bob is not real. its entertainment. but the teacher teaches , the child must listen and cooperate. i mean there is a separation from tv entertainment and serious school work. the very young child will believe pretty much any thing a authority figure tells them, ie parents teachers adults. so to ask a 5 year old to decide what is fantssy or fact is unrealistic. as for the santy thing. well yes they will believe in santy as this is a fantasy i have allowed, (now the mob will descend) because its a very nice imaginative and cute thing, my house (clearly) doesnt incorporate any of the religious dressings associated with xmas but just that a guy in a red suit climbs down a small chimney. (now the mob will start with "oh but you are picking and choosing extracts of our belief, oh how can you just pick something that suits and not the rest yada yada yadaa)

also i dont see why magneto your talking about your own personal learnings at primary school. this discussion is not about you is it.

and you are suggesting that adam and eve should be used as a means of sexual education. i cant believe you even said that. and nobody is talking about when science etc should be taught. its about us as a family not having a choice of whether our kids will be taught religion or not.

tadhgmorris

you have made a huge amount of sense there. and worded it a lot better than i could have managed.

Musiconomist

magneticimpulse wrote: »

If you dont like the club and everything else that goes with Irish culture then maybe you should reconsider your choices for living in Ireland.

It is a fact that the majority of Primary schools in Ireland are Catholic. No point crying over it. When in Rome....

Also this is not the Parenting forum, this is the Education forum.

Is this coming from the only person posting inthe forum who doesnt live in Ireland? What we're talking about is change and progress. Just because there have been Catholic schools for a long time, doesnt mean it cant be changed. Hopefully when the census is tallied, we will have a voice.

magneticimpulse

dkin wrote: »

If you are a catholic then you *must* treat the bible as absolute fact there is no such thing as 'a la carte' catholicism where you pick and choose the bits you like. If you don't believe part of the doctrine you are not catholic rather some form of protestant.



Once again if you are catholic it's *not* open to interpretation, there is a set doctrine which you are supposed to believe.


If you are a catholic the bible is not 'man's interpretation' it is the word of God.


The point of the bible is that it is the word of God and *not* subjective, at least not in the way that you think. You are meant to reflect on the meaning of parables and so forth but you must also adhere to a fairly strict inflexible doctrine.


There are a lot of people in Ireland who like to call themselves Catholic but they're not Catholic as they don't accept the teachings of the church in full. I can call myself a good person doesn't necessarily make it true.



As I've already listed the Catholic church in this country is largely a sham and primarily concerned with power and its reputation. It doesn't even enforce it's own doctrine anymore. The Catholic church of the fifties and earlier was closer to the real thing.



Well in effect an organisation that many people consider corrupt, parasitic and aloof is gaining direct access to their children and trying to indoctrinate them into a belief system to which they are completely opposed and attempting to establish the church permanently in the childs mind as a form of moral authority to which the child defer to and look for guidance from in future years. Taken from a different viewpoint to your own it is shocking and disgusting.


What about questioning the world around you and asking *why* should you have to grin and bear it. In fact this is on of the key tenants of catholicism they don't want you asking those questions and trying to figure out the answer yourself they want you to defer to them for leadership and do what you're told aka 'grin and bear it'.

How do you know it made you a more resilient person? Is it possible that you could have spent your time in school learning about things that would have had a much more positive effect on you for the rest of your life. The whole point of the the subject was to convince you that you needed this information and that it is important above and beyond other information even though that claim is highly dubious.


Uniforms prevent children wearing designer clothes in Ireland not religion. A lot of foreign people consider the Irish to be arrogant loud, badly educated, highly insular, uncultured and obnoxious this is their subjective opinion as you have your own about Ireland. Thierry Henry's hand ball is not sufficient to judge a whole race of people, I heard plenty of people in Dublin saying how delighted they would have been if it was Robbie Keane and the other end of the pitch. Pushy and arrogant? Want to get into the list of irish stereotypes?


In many cases in Ireland most shops open on Sundays. Therefore is France more or less religious than us?


I am sure many French people go through identical emotions when returning to France. You have a personal preference for Ireland above France, in your introspective quest to pin point the reason you have identified your religious upbringing as a significant cultural difference between the way you were brought up and the way you see those around you brought up. In reality the answer is far more complex. I blame mass consumerism myself and advertising agencies fine tuning and exploiting many of the persuasive techniques originally honed by the church to spread their message.

I chose to remain Catholic and if I want to pick and chose from that I will. If I want to use it for interpretation and my family do...then we chose to do that. It is not for you to decide if you agree with peoples level of Catholic. If people gain something out of it...if they pick or chose based on stories/fabels and it helps them live a better life. If it helps them deal with death, marriage, birth etc. Then let them be.

The census in Ireland helps decide how Catholics there are. From this information the Government can decide if they should provide more schools with non religion. It is up to people to decide that. If the majority in an area state on the census they are Catholic and many people send their children to the schools. Maybe there is not a need.

I do question the world around me. But I know I am not better than anybody and I know I do not have all the answers. I do not judge people if they have a totally different way of thinking. Thou I like to understand why they think in such a way...its interesting.

I did need the information. It helped me be a better person. I enjoyed it and it was a positive experience. I would not like to have attended a French or UK state school for example.

Yes I know shops are open in Ireland on a Sunday. France claims the church and state are seperate yet they close shops on Sunday because it is Catholic Church day. They also use all Catholic religious days...assumption/asscension as their public holidays. Talk about calling the kettle black.

As for OP...well you said you live in a rural area in which the only option is a Catholic school. Which technically means you have no option if you are adament your children should not be taught religion. I was just expressing that it might not be so bad or do them harm. I also suggested you move to an area with a non religious school, but you said that was not an option?? So I am not sure what you are seeking from this forum??

All I can see is that you will have to send your children to the Catholic school. They will paint and read during religion. They cannot close their ears and will of course hear prayers and stuff...Which will make you angry and mad. Your children will feel crap because you told them not to listen to the prayers...but they cant close their ears.

I am just trying to reason with you. You really do not have many options besides the above and it is not good enough for you.

magneticimpulse

Musiconomist wrote: »

Is this coming from the only person posting inthe forum who doesnt live in Ireland? What we're talking about is change and progress. Just because there have been Catholic schools for a long time, doesnt mean it cant be changed. Hopefully when the census is tallied, we will have a voice.

Haha well I am counted on the 2011 Irish Census.

That is a small minded view point. You do not know what I am doing in France or how long for. Just because I am not in Ireland today, doesnt mean I am not in Ireland tomorrow. Therefore the way Ireland is run is of my concern too.

I am coming from the viewpoint that i have lived in UK and France. I have seen this "socialist" change. Its not all what it is cracked up to be. Sure I totally accept change...but your just changing one thing for another. With the void something else is bound to replace it. Is it a case of the grass is always greener on the other side?

Are we becoming too PC? Not wanting to offend people? How far do we take it? Will people be better off with the change? Will people be better off with no religion, no spiritual believes, no morals? etc?

Could we risk are producing greedy, materilistic children who sponge off their parents for money?? Or can we still educate children without religion but with some other subject which still enforces morals and ethical beliefs? Without offending anybody? Humanist schools??

Musiconomist

tadhgmorris wrote: »

...and you are suggesting that adam and eve should be used as a means of sexual education. i cant believe you even said that. and nobody is talking about when science etc should be taught. its about us as a family not having a choice of whether our kids will be taught religion or not.

Haha you'd have kids disembowelling themselves, trying to take out a rib. This is a prime example of why religion shouldnt be taught to children.

Musiconomist

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Are we becoming too PC? Not wanting to offend people? How far do we take it? Will people be better off with the change? Will people be better off with no religion, no spiritual believes, no morals? etc?

Could we risk are producing greedy, materilistic children who sponge off their parents for money?? Or can we still educate children without religion but with some other subject which still enforces morals and ethical beliefs? Without offending anybody?

Let's not confuse religion with morals. I dont see how you can equate a lack of religion with any of the above. Japan, which has one of the largest percentage of atheist citizens in the world showed incredible character during the recent flooding, where there was relativey few cases of looting. Compare that to Britain.

I think what you may be referring to is a lack of social and personal responsibility, but I think we can all agree (the Dublin riots spring to mind), that the current system hasnt provided these things either.

magneticimpulse

Musiconomist wrote: »

Let's not confuse religion with morals. I dont see how you can equate a lack of religion with any of the above. Japan, which has one of the largest percentage of atheist citizens in the world showed incredible character during the recent flooding, where there was relativey few cases of looting. Compare that to Britain.

I think what you may be referring to is a lack of social and personal responsibility, but I think we can all agree (the Dublin riots spring to mind), that the current system hasnt provided these things either.

Oh but for me in primary school I was taught morals in religion...and that is what you guys are against. Majority of the time is was a round about way...jesus did this, jesus did that...he educated people, shared food and spoke to outcasts in society...each lesson had a moral at the end of it..equally up there with He-Man or Captain Planet when I was that age.

What happened in Japan, happened in India, Thailand, New Orleans, New Zealand after similar natural disasters. The common factor is humans. I have lots of Japanese friends and they said people were in shock in the beginning and were later very angry and still angry (this bit has not been protrayed in International news....news is objective to the country you are in and what is interesting at the time).

Also the riots were not in Britain...Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland didnt have them. They were located to larger English cities like Manchester/Birmingham/London. There have also been riots in Paris lets not forget that.

The common factor is people not being heard, people in disadvantage areas and forgotten people in society.

It is great that you brought this up! Religion classes teach not to forget people and to help people of all walks of life....otherwise you get these riots.

Alot of Muslims in France find it hard because French are so anti religion. The muslims want to practise their religion but face a brick wall for not being accepted.

Your assuming all parents will teach their children the same you might. But they dont. Many children do need to understand death, life, morals, rights and wrong, respect, sharing etc. Currently that is under the umbrella of Catholic religious teaching in school. I am not saying it is right to teach it under that umbrella. But if you remove religion from school you will still have to replace it with a subject which covers morals,the path of life.

School is just not the get a career at the age of 18, 22 or 25. School should be an all round education to learn to get on with people, accept people of different walks of life, think about others and not just yourself, about giving and forgiveness. If you do not have social skills, society will collapse and nobody will accept or respect differences in people.

Sometimes you have to learn to put differences aside in order to get on with people. I dont think Ireland has it correct to have majority Catholic schools to teach religion or right in doing this...but I do think at the moment it is working better than England/France who have conflict between nationalities of different colour, race and religion.

We are living in the hear and now. I dont have children now...but already I am deciding what type of school to send them to, what country to bring them up in, what type of religion if any they should be taught.

You guys do have children at school now and the schools happen to be Catholic. Thats the way it is currently. It is not going to change overnight. It can be put in the process of changing, but by the time the change occurs your kids will no longer be in Primary school.

Also the Santa Claus thing...seriously??? Do you follow St. Valentines and St. Patricks day too?? The name Saint in front might give away that these are Catholic religious figures. Who is calling the kettle black now? You chose Santa Claus to keep for your children because you think this is a "nice" fantasy. But you can say the same about the whole Catholic religion, Jesus and God. Alot of us like to think it is all a nice fantasy in our heads. Jesus in our heads is a nice man like Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Christmas...who cares if its true right?? An escape from reality. If your going to be anti Catholic, it is good to be consistent with everything and to be anti Santa Claus too? Or maybe you didnt want your children to miss out on other things which other children believe in? It brings me back to the French who claim State over religion and then observe every Catholic holiday in the year as a public holiday.

The whole point is...there are so many religious events which overlap into our society. Easter/Christmas/St.Patricks day, especially in Ireland. It is woven into our culture. I totally appreciate and will accept the fact if people chose to go down the road of no religion...but as someone said before you shouldnt really nit pick or keep the bits you like such as Santa Claus....if Jesus/God is not important to you, then it is kinda insulting to observe the other Saints...its kinda mocking someones religion if you see what i mean.

dkin

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Oh but for me in primary school I was taught morals in religion...and that is what you guys are against. Majority of the time is was a round about way...jesus did this, jesus did that...he educated people, shared food and spoke to outcasts in society...each lesson had a moral at the end of it..equally up there with He-Man or Captain Planet when I was that age.

There are better, less confusing ways of teaching morality. You could base it on the UN human rights charter. Instead we have a system that instils fear by telling children that unless they follow certain rules and obey a certain institution they will spend eternity burning in hell.

It is great that you brought this up! Religion classes teach not to forget people and to help people of all walks of life....otherwise you get these riots.

Religion can also instigate riots and indeed full blown warfare. History is full of religious war. In fact it could be argued that religion has been a powerful agent of intolerance throughout history. People have been killed on a huge scale simply for disobeying religious leaders.

Alot of Muslims in France find it hard because French are so anti religion. The muslims want to practise their religion but face a brick wall for not being accepted.

I don't think anyone in France is preventing muslims from practising their religion. You seem to be putting the blame solely on the non-religious French here. Have you considered the possibilty that strictly religious muslims in those countries might suffer from the inflexibility of their religious upbringing and are simply not as socially adaptable as those with more lax religious beliefs?

Your assuming all parents will teach their children the same you might. But they dont. Many children do need to understand death, life, morals, rights and wrong, respect, sharing etc. Currently that is under the umbrella of Catholic religious teaching in school. I am not saying it is right to teach it under that umbrella. But if you remove religion from school you will still have to replace it with a subject which covers morals,the path of life.

No children don't understand any of those things they are told the catholic interpretation of those things. For instance is it morally right to exclude women from being priests or prevent priests from marrying or is a simply a system of control and male dominance. It all depends on personal interpretation yet according to the RC church it is morally right.

School is just not the get a career at the age of 18, 22 or 25. School should be an all round education to learn to get on with people, accept people of different walks of life, think about others and not just yourself, about giving and forgiveness. If you do not have social skills, society will collapse and nobody will accept or respect differences in people.

I see no reason why religion is necessary for any of those things. You assume here that people who are not religious find it difficult to get on with other people, accept different people, think about others etc. However there is an argument that religion creates people who are suspicious and less tolerant of those with differing faiths as can be seen historically in the many religious wars.

I do think at the moment it is working better than England/France who have conflict between nationalities of different colour, race and religion.

I'm not convinced about this, what evidence do you have? We are a more homogeneous society.

Also the Santa Claus thing...seriously??? Do you follow St. Valentines and St. Patricks day too?? The name Saint in front might give away that these are Catholic religious figures. Who is calling the kettle black now? You chose Santa Claus to keep for your children because you think this is a "nice" fantasy. But you can say the same about the whole Catholic religion, Jesus and God. Alot of us like to think it is all a nice fantasy in our heads. Jesus in our heads is a nice man like Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Christmas...who cares if its true right?? An escape from reality. If your going to be anti Catholic, it is good to be consistent with everything and to be anti Santa Claus too? Or maybe you didnt want your children to miss out on other things which other children believe in? It brings me back to the French who claim State over religion and then observe every Catholic holiday in the year as a public holiday.

Do you celebrate Halloween? Are you pagan? If you're going to be Catholic you might as well do it properly and ignore Halloween. You can disagree with indoctrination but still take the day off.

The whole point is...there are so many religious events which overlap into our society. Easter/Christmas/St.Patricks day, especially in Ireland. It is woven into our culture. I totally appreciate and will accept the fact if people chose to go down the road of no religion...but as someone said before you shouldnt really nit pick or keep the bits you like such as Santa Claus....if Jesus/God is not important to you, then it is kinda insulting to observe the other Saints...its kinda mocking someones religion if you see what i mean.

I am not sure these people are observing the other saints. They simply take the day off as it is a designated day off. It is simply a cultural tradition that is practical. The vast majority of the ritual surrounding Christmas for instance makes sense on a humanistic level and you can recognise and engage in these aspects (seeing family, giving presents, being with family etc) without observing any religious faith or mocking someones religion. The religious element in many of these holidays is decreasing over time.

dkin

magneticimpulse wrote: »

I chose to remain Catholic and if I want to pick and chose from that I will. If I want to use it for interpretation and my family do...then we chose to do that. It is not for you to decide if you agree with peoples level of Catholic. If people gain something out of it...if they pick or chose based on stories/fabels and it helps them live a better life. If it helps them deal with death, marriage, birth etc. Then let them be.

But if your interpretation is different from the Catholic interpretation than how are you Catholic? Fundamentally Catholicism is a set of rituals and doctrine that are supposed to be infallible (that is one of the key tenants) there is no room for manoeuvre with infallibility.

I do question the world around me. But I know I am not better than anybody and I know I do not have all the answers. I do not judge people if they have a totally different way of thinking. Thou I like to understand why they think in such a way...its interesting.

Good but do you think you are this way solely because of your religious upbringing? Would you not be any of these things without the Catholic church?

I did need the information. It helped me be a better person. I enjoyed it and it was a positive experience. I would not like to have attended a French or UK state school for example.

Well much of the fundamental information that is taught in RE is important and needed. But the method of delivery is highly suspect.

Yes I know shops are open in Ireland on a Sunday. France claims the church and state are seperate yet they close shops on Sunday because it is Catholic Church day. They also use all Catholic religious days...assumption/asscension as their public holidays. Talk about calling the kettle black.

Well I think the French are probably practical and took the option of least resistance.

Musiconomist

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Oh but for me in primary school I was taught morals in religion...and that is what you guys are against. Majority of the time is was a round about way...jesus did this, jesus did that...he educated people, shared food and spoke to outcasts in society...each lesson had a moral at the end of it..equally up there with He-Man or Captain Planet when I was that age.

What happened in Japan, happened in India, Thailand, New Orleans, New Zealand after similar natural disasters. The common factor is humans. I have lots of Japanese friends and they said people were in shock in the beginning and were later very angry and still angry (this bit has not been protrayed in International news....news is objective to the country you are in and what is interesting at the time).

Also the riots were not in Britain...Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland didnt have them. They were located to larger English cities like Manchester/Birmingham/London. There have also been riots in Paris lets not forget that.

The common factor is people not being heard, people in disadvantage areas and forgotten people in society.

It is great that you brought this up! Religion classes teach not to forget people and to help people of all walks of life....otherwise you get these riots.

Alot of Muslims in France find it hard because French are so anti religion. The muslims want to practise their religion but face a brick wall for not being accepted.

Your assuming all parents will teach their children the same you might. But they dont. Many children do need to understand death, life, morals, rights and wrong, respect, sharing etc. Currently that is under the umbrella of Catholic religious teaching in school. I am not saying it is right to teach it under that umbrella. But if you remove religion from school you will still have to replace it with a subject which covers morals,the path of life.

School is just not the get a career at the age of 18, 22 or 25. School should be an all round education to learn to get on with people, accept people of different walks of life, think about others and not just yourself, about giving and forgiveness. If you do not have social skills, society will collapse and nobody will accept or respect differences in people.

Sometimes you have to learn to put differences aside in order to get on with people. I dont think Ireland has it correct to have majority Catholic schools to teach religion or right in doing this...but I do think at the moment it is working better than England/France who have conflict between nationalities of different colour, race and religion.

We are living in the hear and now. I dont have children now...but already I am deciding what type of school to send them to, what country to bring them up in, what type of religion if any they should be taught.

You guys do have children at school now and the schools happen to be Catholic. Thats the way it is currently. It is not going to change overnight. It can be put in the process of changing, but by the time the change occurs your kids will no longer be in Primary school.

Also the Santa Claus thing...seriously??? Do you follow St. Valentines and St. Patricks day too?? The name Saint in front might give away that these are Catholic religious figures. Who is calling the kettle black now? You chose Santa Claus to keep for your children because you think this is a "nice" fantasy. But you can say the same about the whole Catholic religion, Jesus and God. Alot of us like to think it is all a nice fantasy in our heads. Jesus in our heads is a nice man like Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Christmas...who cares if its true right?? An escape from reality. If your going to be anti Catholic, it is good to be consistent with everything and to be anti Santa Claus too? Or maybe you didnt want your children to miss out on other things which other children believe in? It brings me back to the French who claim State over religion and then observe every Catholic holiday in the year as a public holiday.

The whole point is...there are so many religious events which overlap into our society. Easter/Christmas/St.Patricks day, especially in Ireland. It is woven into our culture. I totally appreciate and will accept the fact if people chose to go down the road of no religion...but as someone said before you shouldnt really nit pick or keep the bits you like such as Santa Claus....if Jesus/God is not important to you, then it is kinda insulting to observe the other Saints...its kinda mocking someones religion if you see what i mean.

I disagree with a lot that you say. I think the biggest influence on children and who we eventually turn out to be, comes from our parents. Most of our morals/principles are taken from our parents. I think that you will accept their judgements without question, when you are young. But I dont like the idea of religion being introduced at such an early age into a child's world. Ideas like eternal damnation and sexism (original sin, Mary Magdalene) can have quite negative impacts on a child's rationalization of the world.

What was that Jesuit saying again?

As for disrespecting people's holidays, I think that's nonsense. Part of living in a secular society is being able to share differences and celebrate them. I wouldnt refuse to attend a wedding just because it is in a church/mosque/synagogue. I will celebrate Christmas with my children (when I have children), as it is a great idea for a holiday. I wouldnt deprive my children of the wonder of the holiday, nor would I make them feel like outcasts by being the only children at school without Christmas presents. I dont see it as a moral dilemma. My concern is for how my children are being influenced to think.

byhookorbycrook

Er...Hallowe'en= all Hallows' eve..

Insect Overlord

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Er...Hallowe'en= all Hallows' eve..

...created to give the pagans something Christian to do instead of celebrating Samhain.

tadhgmorris

Originally Posted by magneticimpulse

Also the Santa Claus thing...seriously??? Do you follow St. Valentines and St. Patricks day too?? The name Saint in front might give away that these are Catholic religious figures. Who is calling the kettle black now? You chose Santa Claus to keep for your children because you think this is a "nice" fantasy. But you can say the same about the whole Catholic religion, Jesus and God. Alot of us like to think it is all a nice fantasy in our heads. Jesus in our heads is a nice man like Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Christmas...who cares if its true right?? An escape from reality. If your going to be anti Catholic, it is good to be consistent with everything and to be anti Santa Claus too? Or maybe you didnt want your children to miss out on other things which other children believe in? It brings me back to the French who claim State over religion and then observe every Catholic holiday in the year as a public holiday.

i knew it. holy moly a nice fantasy you say. this is like a script for father doogal and fr ted. "all a nice fantasy in our heads" - Ted. "Jesus in our heads is a nice man like Santa Claus/Easter Bunny/Christmas...who cares if its true right??" but it is not a fantasy it is being taught as fact. Fact my man. primary teaching is to push for kids to enter into catholic religion. to believe as fact these "nice stories" from the bible as fact. surely you cannot expect a non catholic to be happy to have kids taught as fact what i consider a as you admit "a nice fantasy in our heads".

anyway i will be speaking with local schools and will get hopefully something positive back from principles.

An Bradán Feasa

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Also the Santa Claus thing...seriously??? Do you follow St. Valentines and St. Patricks day too?? The name Saint in front might give away that these are Catholic religious figures. Who is calling the kettle black now? You chose Santa Claus to keep for your children because you think this is a "nice" fantasy.

I believe this is called A La Carte Atheism!

The Black Oil

I don't know if it's fair to compare the teaching of fundamental numerical and literacy skills to the teaching of religious instruction (for a specific faith, rather than an all round approach). As for the dislike of Irish, I'd put much of that down to fairly dreadful curriculum, in my day at least. I've also never really accepted the whole 'if you're part of a club, you follow the rules' thing that crops up in this debate. That doesn't really wash with me because at best it seems simplistic and a bit naive. A church isn't your local GAA, soccer, golf or scouts club. The majority of people will never have any contact with senior members of the church, whereas they may well do with people in sporting or other community organisations. Supporting a team or individuals is a bit different to following a deity. OK, so people may have a good relationship with the church's foot soldier's, but ordinary people have little input into the church's affairs, it's not as if there are any AGM meetings you can attend, is it? I went to Catholic schools, but have never felt that my moral backbone or whatever you want to call it, comes from those experiences.

It's a debate we've a tough time having in general (the debate around Irish is also problematic, imo). I think sometimes part of that is down to expectations that are a bit unrealistic (within elements of all sides), those who want things to stay as is, those who fake the Catholic bit, parents who want the Catholic thing done, but don't take much part in it and dump it all on the teachers, those who want it dismantled, those who simply want more choice and flexibility in the system and so on. Again, I think we're less of a "Catholic country" in practice than on paper. Part of the population do follow the faith, but I think another wants to be perceived (I'm not even talking about the a la carte/part-timers) as a Catholic country because I think that's seen as safer than reform, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Even if you put aside the abuse scandals I wonder if this country's relationship with the church is a little bit, I don't know, toxic. Personal bias is that it isn't healthy. In terms of comparisons to European peers and neighbours, again not sure about that...we've always been a bit slow to progress in some respects. All systems, education, policing, health...disability support have access issues, the less there is within each one, well, I don't think that bodes well in general or for the future.

magneticimpulse

Not all parents in society do have the capability thou to pass on good knowledge/morals to their children unfortunately. Not all parents are fortunate to be in a 2.1 family situation, there are many levels.

I agree with A la Carte Athiest (just as well as A la Carte people who follow religion). It is difficult to argue that you think it is not right to teach children false information,religious fiction such as Adam and Eve, yet to let them believe a fat jolly guy flies around the planet in 24 hours visiting every child on the planet. It should be consistent in order to argue the point that religious instruction should be removed from schools in Ireland.

I am half Catholic/Scientist...I never claimed to be one extreme or the other. Just like I am a full vegeterian...its not the norm in life. I set my own standard with that. I accept that I live in a meat eating world environment...I dont preach to other meat eaters about that or try to change things. They accept me provided i am not too fussy and I accept them.....I wouldnt expect to sit at a different table to other meat eaters...Same could be said about non religious people in a religious environment ie in schools, vice versa. Sure non religious people should be catered for but I do not think they need to be seperated from the rest.

I do agree with if its not broken then no need to fix it. Certainly there could be less time spent on the Catholic bit of the subject/school life in general and more time spent introducing a "spiritual/civics/ethical/society/general info on all religion" sort of subject. But I strongly believe there needs to be a subject to replace religion should Irish schools wish to abolish it. Like everyone knows, there is more to life and getting a job then just knowing how to spell and do addition.

As for the church not being a club? Well I was part of the school choir, church music group and girl guides as a kid. It can have positive aspects to gather socially with other people and for children. Sure the Church has had bad press/ways of conduct... but that is another topic.

There is certainly one large organisation which is taking over childrens interest and gathering members to join and that is Facebook. So we are already replacing the "church" with another equally large following thing in our lives.

I dont think Ireland needs to play catch up with its European neighbours. There have been alot of things which Ireland has accepted before any other country in Europe. France is very set in its ways and they still use cheques, etc among other things. They are very resistent to change.

Ireland has been maybe changing too fast and is finally brought back down to earth with the recession. This is one topic "Catholic schools" which I think is on the last of a long list for change in Ireland at the moment. Ireland has to rebuild so many other fractured parts of its society. I dont think it is financially viable at the moment and I doubt it will be for a long time to make huge changes to school buildings/system. We will be lucky to get enough teachers to have small classroom sizes. Having to implement a whole new structure and education system into 87% of Irish schools will cost alot and take many years I think. Especially in rural Ireland.

Lets take one thing at a time. I think Irish people already have enough taxes going to repay bankers/property developers which will be passed onto their children. I think the thoughts of changing the education system at the same time will cripple the country. I can imagine it would cost alot of money to retrain all the Primary school teachers...it might seem obvious just to scrap a subject, but I am sure it would be more complicated then that...involve restructuring, retraining, deciding which schools to change etc. Paying people/civil servents to decide what would be the best method to go about it etc etc. Maybe making cutbacks, people losing jobs...who knows what the full costs would involve to make such a change. Im sure when the country is up and running again there will be provisions made for a less dependent on Catholic religion schooling system.

D4RK ONION

Sorry, I think some people in this thread need a dictionary. Atheist. A-Theism. Without religion. WITHOUT GOD. NO GOD. That is all being atheist means. You either believe in God or you don't. Santa doesn't come into it. Wow.

Musiconomist

magneticimpulse wrote: »

Not all parents in society do have the capability thou to pass on good knowledge/morals to their children unfortunately. Not all parents are fortunate to be in a 2.1 family situation, there are many levels.

I dont think that some parents lack the ability to pass on morals, more like, some parents dont have morals that we would recognise as being good. Children learn by example, and learn most from their parents. This is unavoidable though, due to free will/human nature. Religious education will not fix this.

I agree with A la Carte Athiest (just as well as A la Carte people who follow religion). It is difficult to argue that you think it is not right to teach children false information,religious fiction such as Adam and Eve, yet to let them believe a fat jolly guy flies around the planet in 24 hours visiting every child on the planet. It should be consistent in order to argue the point that religious instruction should be removed from schools in Ireland.

What are you talking about? Do you tell your children that their favourite animated characters are being drawn by Koreans being who are paid low wages? Children have plenty of time to learn how cruel the world is.

As an atheist, I decide what I believe in. I dont believe in any of the story behind Christmas, but it is a nice holiday. This doesnt impact anyone else. Why do you care whether I celebrate it?

I am half Catholic/Scientist...I never claimed to be one extreme or the other. Just like I am a full vegeterian...its not the norm in life. I set my own standard with that. I accept that I live in a meat eating world environment...I dont preach to other meat eaters about that or try to change things. They accept me provided i am not too fussy and I accept them.....I wouldnt expect to sit at a different table to other meat eaters...Same could be said about non religious people in a religious environment ie in schools, vice versa. Sure non religious people should be catered for but I do not think they need to be seperated from the rest.

Half Catholic/half scientist, surely a clash of terms? Your logic is flawed in this, I think. In your example, you have a choice. In reality, the choice is made for children without their knowledge. Therefore, they might not choose to forego religion, but I believe it is in their best interests.

I do agree with if its not broken then no need to fix it. Certainly there could be less time spent on the Catholic bit of the subject/school life in general and more time spent introducing a "spiritual/civics/ethical/society/general info on all religion" sort of subject. But I strongly believe there needs to be a subject to replace religion should Irish schools wish to abolish it. Like everyone knows, there is more to life and getting a job then just knowing how to spell and do addition.

How can you say its not broken? At least 97% of the corrupt politicians, corrupt clergy and corrupt bankers all went to Catholic schools. It either had no effect or else a negative effect on these people. I think any religious education should be left to secondary schools, and then only as a broad overview.

Personally, I think, the governments assistance in covering up abuse stories led people to lose faith in authority, and why wouldnt it.

There is certainly one large organisation which is taking over childrens interest and gathering members to join and that is Facebook. So we are already replacing the "church" with another equally large following thing in our lives.

Not so sure about this. Facebook neither promises anything nor educates. It is a means of communication, like having a mobile phone. Agreed, though, that parents should monitor in the same way.

Ireland has been maybe changing too fast and is finally brought back down to earth with the recession. This is one topic "Catholic schools" which I think is on the last of a long list for change in Ireland at the moment. Ireland has to rebuild so many other fractured parts of its society. I dont think it is financially viable at the moment and I doubt it will be for a long time to make huge changes to school buildings/system. We will be lucky to get enough teachers to have small classroom sizes. Having to implement a whole new structure and education system into 87% of Irish schools will cost alot and take many years I think. Especially in rural Ireland.

I disagree. All we have to do is take all Catholic references out of school names and drop religion from the curriculum. That actually seems like it would save money and improve education.

Lets take one thing at a time. I think Irish people already have enough taxes going to repay bankers/property developers which will be passed onto their children. I think the thoughts of changing the education system at the same time will cripple the country. I can imagine it would cost alot of money to retrain all the Primary school teachers...it might seem obvious just to scrap a subject, but I am sure it would be more complicated then that...involve restructuring, retraining, deciding which schools to change etc. Paying people/civil servents to decide what would be the best method to go about it etc etc. Maybe making cutbacks, people losing jobs...who knows what the full costs would involve to make such a change. Im sure when the country is up and running again there will be provisions made for a less dependent on Catholic religion schooling system.

What retraining will teachers require? If they are asked to teach one less subject, it would save time/allow them to focus on other subjects.

D4RK ONION

Ok people, I think the OP has gotten his or her answer and we can all move on. If you wish to further discuss religion, both the Atheism & Agnosticism and the Christianity forums are open to debate and discussion to all creeds.