Feedback on the Islam forum.

dlofnep

Hobbes wrote: »

- Islam Forum.
- Any other forum, like AH, Humanities, politics, etc.

Or, permit all sides of discussion in the Islam forum - like is afforded in the other religious fora. And just incase you think I'm being disingenous:

Christianity

Criticism on Clerical Child abuse: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855692

The issue of Gay Marriage and children: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056339115

Mass debate on creationism: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=316566

dr.bollocko

My concern from reading recent threads on there that have come to light.
In any situation where there is a question of tacitly implying that domestic abuse is an option, even as a last resort, that is just beyond the pale. Unacceptable.

Wibbs

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I am not getting into the details of the wife beating argument, that is a thread and a topic that has proven to be quite emotive and is not for discussion on the Feedback forum.

Why not TD? It does have some bearing on this discussion. It's the elephant in the room. A forum were some of those who post there, including a moderator of said forum... well Dr B put it better than I could: "In any situation where there is a question of tacitly implying that domestic abuse is an option, even as a last resort, that is just beyond the pale". And no religious doctrine or interpretation of texts should be an excuse on this website. Beyond th pale indeed.

Just as women need to feel they can post in the Ladies Lounge with a bias towards women, Muslims should feel the same about the Islam forum.

I agree actually. My take is if they or any other religious(or non religious) group want a place for themselves that doesn't contravene the Boards ethos I say go for it. If you don't like the faith, or don't like that they have a place just for them then don't post in their forum. Simple as. There are enough other places where you can post agin it on Boards and question their intelligence so knock yourself out. Rocket science it ain't.

However in this case for me the important part is in bold above. If say one of the Ladies Lounge regulars came along and suggested it was OK as a true feminist in certain circumstances to beat men, she'd be slapped with a warning if not a ban so fast and we wouldn't be handing out red cards to those who cried foul. We've warned, infracted and banned women from the forum for overt chauvinism before. We as mods certainly wouldn't be defending their right to say it and neither would the cmods or admins. Tacitly suggesting and therefore approving in the minds of some spousal violence would or should be against the Boards ethos in any forum.

Adyx

Hobbes wrote: »

- Islam Forum.
- Any other forum, like AH, Humanities, politics, etc.

How is Politics a suitable forum for discussing Islam? A thread in AH would most likely be locked (rightly so).

If there's going to be discussion on Islam it should be in the Islam forum same as Christianity and A & A. Moderate it strictly all you want to deal with the muppets with an agenda, but to not allow any debate is ridiculous.

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree actually. My take is if they or any other religious(or non religious) group want a place for themselves that doesn't contravene the Boards ethos I say go for it. If you don't like the faith, or don't like that they have a place just for them then don't post in their forum. Simple as. There are enough other places where you can post agin it on Boards and question their intelligence so knock yourself out. Rocket science it ain't.

What if someone simply wants a genuine and polite discussion on the Muslim faith? The Islam forum apparently isn't the place for this either.

Wibbs

Adyx wrote: »

What if someone simply wants a genuine and polite discussion on the Muslim faith? The Islam forum apparently isn't the place for this either.

To be fair, I would say in the beginnings of the forum that might have been the case at times, but in the last couple of years I've very rarely if ever seen genuine and polite discussion get any mod attention in there.

EG I got banned from that forum back in the day for questioning the historicity of the Quran and search away if you like I was being polite and gave links to scholarly/non nutjob anti Muslim sites as backup. I seriously doubt I'd get banned even warned for similar today. Would I post a similar subject today? No. Little point. I'd either get "context" or "no you're wrong" and it would go nowhere and since Muslims consider as first principle the origins of their holy book could cause upset. Life's too short for that and I can if I wish post the same subject in the A&A or history&heritage forums without getting a rise from the locals to no good end. Id take the same view with Christianity or any of the spiritual forums outside of A&A. Like I said so long as a forum follows the general ethos of Boards.ie then leave them to it. I only raise an eyebrow when it may step across a line. For me spousal abuse is one such line.


PS

Adyx wrote: »

How is Politics a suitable forum for discussing Islam?

Well Islam is viewed in the west as a political faith with some truth in that, plus it's also a political football in discussions on the ME and the world at large, from the so called "War on Terror!!", "clash of civilisations!!" to immigration. It certainly has a political angle.

Fuhrer

dlofnep wrote: »

Or, permit all sides of discussion in the Islam forum - like is afforded in the other religious fora. And just incase you think I'm being disingenous:

This is the problem really, because the charter of the forum is skewed towards protecting Muslims in it, you cant even correct anyone who is quite clearly lying without Hobbes giving you an infraction.

Wibbs

With religion one mans lie is another mans context or root of faith. Hard line to draw and I for one don't envy them the task.

humbert

If it's only for a specific group to express biased views it should surely be a private forum. Otherwise members of boards should be allowed to disagree in a fair and unprejudiced manner.

If the problem was really people going to that forum to attack Islam and express prejudice then surely that's exactly what moderation is for. In cases rife with contention a system such as the one in the soccer forum could be implemented.

Therefore, I believe the problem is that people give fair, relevant unprejudiced answers to questions which many members of that forum/faith find unpalatable. Therefore you get the situation where the moderation of the forum has to be openly biased in favour of the prevailing opinion of it's members at the expense of open debate and more importantly visitors receiving unbiased information.

If the forum is public for people to ask questions about Islam but does not allow them the privilege of receiving unbiased answers I don't it should be a public forum.

Also, in this form I don't think it does any good for the view of Islam in Ireland. That will always require open debate IMO.

nesf

Wibbs wrote: »

PS Well Islam is viewed in the west as a political faith with some truth in that, plus it's also a political football in discussions on the ME and the world at large, from the so called "War on Terror!!", "clash of civilisations!!" to immigration. It certainly has a political angle.

The political angle would be welcome in Politics but that's it. A thread on Islam generally would get locked or moved.

Wibbs

Oh certainly N, the faith aspect would have zero place in the politics forum. I meant subjects like political structures in an Islamic state(Caliphate etc), how that would gel in a general political discourse. How political laws might differ etc, how democracy would operate in such a system. Outside of the direct faith bits the culture is probably the most political as attached and a part of a religious belief. There are long descriptions of the political as well as the god part in the texts.

humbert wrote:

If it's only for a specific group to express biased views it should surely be a private forum. Otherwise members of boards should be allowed to disagree in a fair and unprejudiced manner.

I take your point H, but if you do that then you better do similar with a whole heap of other forums. All specialty forums are "biased" to some degree. EG Try starting an anti blood sports thread in the Hunting, Shooting or Angling forums, a cycling thread in motors, a why Dublin is a city and Cork isn't in the Cork forum *, a homeopathy thread in Health sciences forum etc. I don't see why the Islam forum should be any different if the local community wishes that. I only take issue if something in such a forum crosses the line of the ethos of Boards as a whole.



*runs from people screaming "we'll kill ya bai!!"

Orion

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So you want to go into a religious forum and detail how you have contempt for that religion?

It's not a religious forum - it's a forum about a religion. Take the thread that started this debate - the OP was concerned about a family member converting and asked for opinions. But the only opinions allowed are pro-Islam. If that's going to be the case then the thread should be moved out of that forum; but to where? It's the obvious place to ask a question about the religion but, based on opinions in this thread, is most definitely the wrong place if you want an honest debate.

On Christianity debate is allowed. On A&A debate is allowed. Why is Islam different? As I said earlier criticism is part and parcel of being religious. imo Muslims need to grow a thicker skin and allow debate about their religion instead of stifling it.

Scofflaw

On balance, I agree with the view that the Islam forum has the right to draw a line that excludes regular attacks on Islam - as others have said, all the rest of Boards is there for that. The only reason for wanting to be allowed access to the Islam forum in particular to do so is for the pleasure of rubbing one's dislike in their faces - or of forcing them to confront one by entering into their 'safe haven'. I don't call that "honest debate", really.

Many forums have a dividing line of such a kind - as Wibbs has pointed out. Going into the Soccer forums in order to say that soccer is a sadly over-rated game with really stupid rules, or into the HSA forums to say that blood sports are disgusting, or into Sustainability to say that Greens are deluded yoghurt-worshipiing freaks - all of these are soapboxing or trolling. And wanting access to a religion forum in order to express your distaste for it - well, if I hung around threads in the Motoring forum in order to express my dislike of cars and car users, I would quite rightly be regarded as trolling, because I'm basically there to derail any enjoyment that people might get out of a discussion of motoring, because I'm personally opposed to it. If I hung around tLL to air misogynistic views, I'd be booted out in short order. And in Politics, we boot out those who are unable to distinguish between politics and conspiracy theories.

In that sense, religion only gets the same free pass as other subjects - because all forums draw the line at participants who fundamentally disagree with the basic premise on which the forum is founded. In turn, that's because such posters turns the forum into a demolition derby whenever they reach a critical mass - and the critical mass is not all that large. A minority of insistent posters who disagree with the basic premise of the forum is quite sufficient.

So I support the right of the Islam forum to draw a line and say "you need to respect Islam" - not "support Islam" or "be Muslim", but respect Islam as having the right to its own views despite your personal objection to some or any of those views. And I support the view that nobody has to post in a particular forum, and that nobody has any inalienable right to do so.

What that doesn't provide, however, is somewhere obvious for criticism to go. Nor does it necessarily imply that all criticism should be eliminated, or that if all criticism is being eliminated, that the forum charter draws the line in the right place. I don't have a problem with fundamentally anti-Islamic posters being ejected, or the posters whose very first post immediately tells you that they have zero respect for Islam's right to be Islam. I do have a problem if it is simply impossible to express an opinion critical of Islamic practice in any way at all - and I am aware, of course, that a poster who comes in only to say how disgusting Islam is believes whole-heartedly that he is merely expressing such an opinion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

So I support the right of the Islam forum to draw a line and say "you need to respect Islam" - not "support Islam" or "be Muslim", but respect Islam as having the right to its own views despite your personal objection to some or any of those views.

Respect the forum in the sense of being cordial when debating? Absolutely. Respect the doctrine of Islam? Absolutely not.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

Respect the forum in the sense of being cordial when debating? Absolutely. Respect the doctrine of Islam? Absolutely not.

No - respect the right of Islam to hold its own doctrines, and the right of people to hold such doctrines because of their faith, despite your dislike of those doctrines.

However, you raise a point which urgently needs consideration, which is where, for example, Islamic doctrine conflicts with the law of the land. In the case of the domestic violence question, for example, beating your wife is not acceptable in Ireland, and is not legal in Ireland. It is irrelevant, therefore, what Islamic law or doctrine says on the question, because no matter what it says, beating your wife is illegal, and for boards.ie mods to condone or support illegal acts is something that needs to be entirely ruled out as a possibility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Orion

dlofnep wrote: »

Respect the forum in the sense of being cordial when debating? Absolutely. Respect the doctrine of Islam? Absolutely not.

We differ on this dlofnep. If you're posting on the Islam forum you should be respectful of Islam. You can disagree and be critical while still being respectful. That's the line that a lot of people cross and it has led to over-moderation of the forum.

I'm an atheist myself. I disagree with the basic premise of all religions. But I respect their existence and their believers. Where I have a problem with religious people (and religions) is when they a) shove their beliefs down my throat or b) define any critical comment as anti-<insert religion here>. Muslims in my experience are very guilty of b) and the Islam forum is not atypical.

dlofnep

Orion wrote: »

We differ on this dlofnep. If you're posting on the Islam forum you should be respectful of Islam. You can disagree and be critical while still being respectful. That's the line that a lot of people cross and it has led to over-moderation of the forum.

I never stated to not be respectful when debating. I stated to be cordial in the post you've just quoted, so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

No - respect the right of Islam to hold its own doctrines, and the right of people to hold such doctrines because of their faith, despite your dislike of those doctrines.

I think you're conflating the issue. Respecting the right of someone to hold certain views, and holding respect for a religious doctrine are two different things. I have no problem with anyone of faith, so long as it does not interfere in my life and is not counter to local law. But I do not respect a religious doctrine that permits the beating of one's wife, and orders death on those who commit apostasy, or one which outcasts the homosexual community. Nobody has the right to tell me to respect such a doctrine.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you're conflating the issue. Respecting the right of someone to hold certain views, and holding respect for a religious doctrine are two different things. I have no problem with anyone of faith, so long as it does not interfere in my life and is not counter to local law. But I do not respect a religious doctrine that permits the beating of one's wife, and orders death on those who commit apostasy, or one which outcasts the homosexual community. Nobody has the right to tell me to respect such a doctrine.

I don't think I am conflating the two. Islam exists, and Islam holds those views. I'm not suggesting that you have to find those views respectable in themselves, but you won't change them by arguing in the Islam forum, the more so because none of those things are legal in Ireland, but also because Islam will continue to hold those views despite your arguments. Irish Muslims are, I'm pretty sure, well aware that those views can find no practical expression in Ireland without running into the law - could it be made more plain that Ireland has no respect for those doctrines in themselves. So what are you arguing for? Your personal right to express your dislike of those views?

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

So what are you arguing for? Your personal right to express your dislike of those views?

Yes, and my right to challenge the teachings of the Qur'an and indeed, any religion. Do you find something objectionable with that?

Wibbs

Free speech(tm) and free expression is bloody brilliant and I'll defend it til the cows come home, but along with that comes the responsibility of knowing when to express oneself and when not to. If one is out to prove a point that's usually an indicator to think about the latter. This goes double for religions or anything that deeply heartfelt. Like I say we've a number of forums where we can go WTF? with some of the dafter stuff in any faith system, so I reckon it's good manners to let those within that faith system regulate discourse along the lines of their community. If one religous group is game ball with more strident debate then fine, if another isn't then that's fine too. So long as the ethos of the site is respected. This is the point where it did cross a line in this case. It shouldn't negate the original point IMHO.

Orion

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, and my right to challenge the teachings of the Qur'an and indeed, any religion. Do you find something objectionable with that?

It's how, when and where you challenge it. If you want to object to Islam as a religion the Islam forum is not the place. If you wish to discuss objections to aspects of the religion it should be the place.

You're not doing the original premise any favours with comments like this.

dlofnep

Orion wrote: »

It's how, when and where you challenge it. If you want to object to Islam as a religion the Islam forum is not the place. If you wish to discuss objections to aspects of the religion it should be the place.

How? Cordially.
When? Whenever a topic of interest arises.
Where? The forum in question?

I'm not really sure what the point is you're attempting to make. Either we're afforded the opportunity to engage in discussion, or we're not. That post was speaking in a broader context where I was told that I had to 'respect' Islam. There is no onus on me to respect religious doctrine. I can respect the rules of boards, and respect the usual etiquette that goes with posting on any forum - and never once did I attempt to state otherwise.

I think people are just reading posts, and taking out of it what they want to see at this point. People unable to distance a personal level of respect when discussing a topic, and respect a doctrine. I am fully in favour of the former, and not the latter.

That doesn't imply that I wish to go into the Islam forum everyday with intent of being a thorn in their side. What I want is that if a controversial topic arises, we can discuss it and critique it without being threatened.

Orion wrote: »

You're not doing the original premise any favours with comments like this.

Hold up a second - I'm not doing the original premise of the thread any favours by stating that I wish to challenge the teachings of the Qur'an? Is that exactly what this thread is for - the opportunity to challenge, debate, discuss and create a more balanced and honest debate. What I said did not in anyway, deviate from the original premise.

Wibbs

If Allah is out there he's having a right oul chuckle at me and Scofflaw defending the Islam forum.

dlofnep

I'm a bit perplexed by it all If I must be honest.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm a bit perplexed by it all If I must be honest.

At least you can be sure we're not defending it out of religious sentiment.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

At least you can be sure we're not defending it out of religious sentiment.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I never made such an assumption.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

I never made such an assumption.

And I didn't say you had. It was, I fear, a moment of levity - I shall be careful not to repeat my mistake.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

Well the general assumption appears to be that I want to be able to go into the Islam forum, and stir up every second thread with provocative commentary. That simply isn't the case. So I'm perplexed as to why it's being treated as such. My request is simple - To have the opportunity to debate and critique Islam if a contentious topic comes up, much like what occurs in the Christianity forum.

I'm not looking to derail every thread in the forum, or to intentionally go out of my way to insult the faith of people. I just want to make sure that moderation is more lenient and tolerant of discussion which does not give a pro-Islamic viewpoint.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

Well the general assumption appears to be that I want to be able to go into the Islam forum, and stir up every second thread with provocative commentary. That simply isn't the case. So I'm perplexed as to why it's being treated as such. My request is simple - To have the opportunity to debate and critique Islam if a contentious topic comes up, much like what occurs in the Christianity forum.

I'm not looking to derail every thread in the forum, or to intentionally go out of my way to insult the faith of people. I just want to make sure that moderation is more lenient and tolerant of discussion which does not give a pro-Islamic viewpoint.

We're not talking about you getting some kind of personal pass, though, so the issue has to be looked at rather more widely in any case - and having said that, it appears that the view of some mods is that that's exactly what you're likely to do. I can't comment on that, because while personally I've never noticed any particular position you hold on Islam before, I may just literally not have noticed.

I should probably make clear that while I don't accept the larger argument that the forum should be open to any kind of comment, I don't have any a priori commitment to the view that the forum's line is necessarily either drawn in the right place, or administered properly - nor to the view that it isn't.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hobbes

Adyx wrote: »

How is Politics a suitable forum for discussing Islam?

The majority of issues people have with Islam is related to the politics of different countries and not always an intricate part of the faith.