The Late Late Show

JimiTime

dvpower wrote: »

You must be new to this debate. It is clearly not simple for most parents to avoid sending their child to a church run school.

Thats the crux of it. I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of people who don't grasp that the issue in Ireland is that there isn't really a choice for many people to send your children to anything but a catholic school. Now, I do think the issues with catholic schools are very overstated, and as a non-catholic, believe that they actually offer some benefit. However, in the case of Ireland, it is not a valid argument to just say, 'then don't send your children to a catholic school' for the reason stated above.

PauloMN

JimiTime wrote: »

Thats the crux of it. I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of people who don't grasp that the issue in Ireland is that there isn't really a choice for many people to send your children to anything but a catholic school. Now, I do think the issues with catholic schools are very overstated, and as a non-catholic, believe that they actually offer some benefit. However, in the case of Ireland, it is not a valid argument to just say, 'then don't send your children to a catholic school' for the reason stated above.

I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of people who don't grasp that there are plans to take a whole pile of schools off the church and turn them into non-denominational schools. Nobody on this thread has argued that there's not enough non-denominational schools, everyone agrees there should be more available as the demand for them has increased.

Unfortunately, the demand for them has increased overnight and it takes time for the transition to happen.

For the time being, it is unfortunate that for many non-Catholic parents, the only choice for local schooling is a Catholic school, but that's the fact of the matter at the moment. There's still choice if people feel so strongly about their kids receiving religious education that they have to constantly complain and moan about it - those choices have been outlined time after time above.

On a related note - do people who feel so strongly about Catholic schools not check these things out before they move to an area?

Monty.

PauloMN wrote: »

I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of people who don't grasp that there are plans to take a whole pile of schools off the church

The won't be taking them off anyone, Catholics will decide which Catholic owned schools they no longer require, and don't need the expense of running and looking after.

hotmail.com

Education and religion should be separate yeah? Seems fairly easy to grasp. Leave religion for the parents to teach.

JimiTime

Just to throw a another ball into the game. What about lessons pertaining to morality? Can we also confirm that issues pertaining to sex etc (Apart from the science side of things of course) will also remain out of the classroom and left to parents?

lmaopml

I think it is important to accomodate people as best as possible, and it's a shame that we didn't put education AND health as a priority when we actually could effect change during the boom times. Maybe next time? There are ways and means to set up ET schools, there just needs to be a 'will' to, and that will come from society - not be dictated by the state as 'What is good for you'...that's just more of the same with a different banner.


In the meantime, I would be upset as a parent in Ireland if the State chose to dictate to me as a parent that I could NOT allow my child to say a prayer at the beginning of the school day and before lunch - I would be upset if the school follows the curriculum, but dictated that God should not be included for half of my childs day. I think many others would too - therein lies the problem. Personally, I think 'faith' schools being outlawed or unsupported by the state is jumping the gun just a tad, and I as a parent am not particularly bought by the idea that others know, 'what is good' for my child - school is far more than filling a child with 'facts' and 'knowledge' etc. it's a place where they absorb the world - and should be! but it is also a place where they learn values etc. and I'm not buying all that the world has to throw at them just yet. Actually, I don't think any parent would like their child only written on by the 'world' - I don't think it's possible either. Parents ALWAYS guide their children; that's what it's all about..

J C

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to throw a another ball into the game. What about lessons pertaining to morality? Can we also confirm that issues pertaining to sex etc (Apart from the science side of things of course) will also remain out of the classroom and left to parents?

Yes ... and No.

Atheists will generally claim that there should be no 'religion' in school ... but they conveniently don't define Atheism as a 'religion' ... so they therefore can feel free to have every subject in a secular school taught from an Atheist point of view.

e.g. in science class, child asks if God Created the Universe ... an Atheist teacher could freely say no ... and they could then ask the child to never speak about 'religion' again in the school.

e.g. in SPHE class, child asks if the Ten Commandments are a valid moral compass ... an Atheist teacher could freely say no ... and they could then ask the child to never speak about 'religion' again in the school.

e.g. in Sex Ed class, child asks if Christian Marriage is an ideal basis upon which to establish a family ... an Atheist teacher could freely say no ... and they could then ask the child to never speak about 'religion' again in the school.

e.g. in English class, an Atheist teacher could ask children to write an essay about, for example, the 'Merits of a Secular Society' ... and they could freely mark down any essays that point out the merits of Christianity ... and they could ban any discussion about it ... on the basis that any negative comments on secularism or in favour of Christianity is 'religion'.

etc., etc. ...

... of course, at the end of the day, young people can see through such stuff ... and the fact that less than 10% of Americans believe in Spontaneous Evolution, despite the presentation of all alternatives being banned by law for the past 50 years in Public Schools ... shows that the ethos of schools may not be as big an issue as many (on both sides) of this debate may think!!!

J C

hotmail.com wrote: »

Education and religion should be separate yeah? Seems fairly easy to grasp. Leave religion for the parents to teach.

... that's OK ... provided you accept that Atheism is also a religion ... and therefore all of its pre-suppositions will also be left outside of schools.

Monty.

You'll find Atheism in the "Religion" section of the BBC

They also list the beliefs, rites and rituals of Atheism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/

PDN

Monty. wrote: »

You'll find Atheism in the "Religion" section of the BBC

They also list the beliefs, rites and rituals of Atheism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/

But all rather moot since the tax-payer in Ireland is not being forced to fund Atheist Schools that indoctrinate chiidren in those beliefs, or which practice those rites and rituals. Nor are non-atheist children caused to attend Atheist Schools due to a shortage of other schools.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

But all rather moot since the tax-payer in Ireland is not being forced to fund Atheist Schools that indoctrinate chiidren in those beliefs, or which practice those rites and rituals. Nor are non-atheist children caused to attend Atheist Schools due to a shortage of other schools.

Do you see the issue that no-religion, does not mean no God, and that this is not well comprehended by many? Thus, this argument that you're championing could well be atheism in school. You believe that this is a non-issue?

Zombrex

It should be pointed out by, you know an atheist, that JC's some what hilarious characture of what an atheist school would be like is nothing like any school I've ever heard atheists wanting to run.

I've never heard of an atheist calling for a school that pretends religion doesn't exist or shouldn't be discussed, which seems to be root of JC's nonsense. Nor would any atheist I know answer "No" to the question of whether or not a god created the universe if asked by a child.

Just because some religious folk want to run schools as authoritative indoctrination centres for their religion don't assume us non-religious types wish the same :rolleyes:

JimiTime

Zombrex wrote: »

It should be pointed out by, you know an atheist, that JC's some what hilarious characture of what an atheist school would be like is nothing like any school I've ever heard atheists wanting to run.

I've never heard of an atheist calling for a school that pretends religion doesn't exist or shouldn't be discussed, which seems to be root of JC's nonsense. Nor would any atheist I know answer "No" to the question of whether or not a god created the universe if asked by a child.

Just because some religious folk want to run schools as authoritative indoctrination centres for their religion don't assume us non-religious types wish the same :rolleyes:

Hello Pot, meet kettle.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Hello Pot, meet kettle.

Move your opening bold tag in the second sentence one word to the left

Newaglish

Secularism and atheism are not the same thing!

*head explodes*

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Do you see the issue that no-religion, does not mean no God, and that this is not well comprehended by many? Thus, this argument that you're championing could well be atheism in school. You believe that this is a non-issue?

I can see that some posters appear to be confused. They appear to think that unless a school champions a religion then it must, by definition, be anti-religion or atheistic. And that is obviously not the case.

I believe that State institutions, including schools, should be secular. That means that they do not favour one particular religion, nor are they anti-religion. They should remain strictly neutral. In the same way a school should not favour one particular political party - but that hardly means that they are anti-politics.

Monty.

PDN wrote: »

But all rather moot since the tax-payer in Ireland is not being forced to fund Atheist Schools that indoctrinate chiidren in those beliefs, or which practice those rites and rituals. Nor are non-atheist children caused to attend Atheist Schools due to a shortage of other schools.

The taxpayer funds the school he chooses to send his children to.
A school that refuses any mention of God, or to teach the children about their own religion, and only allows discussion of atheist rites and rituals, like civil marriage etc., is a school that indoctrinates in the atheist philosophy and ethos. If parents want a school with that type of philosophy, fine, they are free to apply for the same funding as everyone else and run one. Not insist that Catholic owned schools must be banned from teaching catholic children Catholicism. The same ban wil also apply to Prodestant owned schools etc.

PDN

Monty. wrote: »

A school that refuses any mention of God, or to teach the children about their own religion, and only allows discussion of atheist rites and rituals, like civil marriage etc., is a school that indoctrinates in the atheist philosophy and ethos. If parents want a school with that type of philosophy, fine, they are free to apply for the same funding as everyone else and run one. Not insist that Catholic owned schools are barred from teaching Catholic Children Catholicism.

There isn't a school in Ireland remotely like what you've described, and no-one is asking for one. So why raise that red herring?

Monty.

PDN wrote: »

There isn't a school in Ireland remotely like what you've described, and no-one is asking for one. So why raise that red herring?

Try to hide it all you want, but any school that refuses to allow Children to learn their own religion is such a school.

PDN

Monty. wrote: »

Try to hide it all you want, but any school that refuses to allow Children to learn their own religion is such a school.

Blatantly untrue nonsense.

Secular schools teach about different religions and mention God frequently. They explain to kids that there are different religions. What they don't do is to assert that one religion is true and that all others are false.

Monty.

PDN wrote: »

Blatantly untrue nonsense.

Secular schools teach about different religions and mention God frequently. They explain to kids that there are different religions. What they don't do is to assert that one religion is true and that all others are false.

In other words they wish to ensure Catholic children are not taught proper Catholicism in their own Catholic owned schools, but instead are forced to be brought up in other peoples preferred religions. Dream on.

Zombrex

Monty. wrote: »

In other words they wish to ensure Catholic children are not taught proper Catholicism in their own Catholic owned schools, but instead are forced to be brought up in other peoples preferred religions. Dream on.

So you don't just object to children not being exposed to religion (which as PDN points out is not in the plans of any secular school), you don't want children taught about other religions at all. You want them taught only about Catholicism and you want them taught it as the only truth.

Jimi, if you are reading ^^^^^

Monty.

Zombrex wrote: »

So you don't just object to children not being exposed to religion (which as PDN points out is not in the plans of any secular school), you don't want children taught about other religions at all. You want them taught only about Catholicism and you want them taught it as the only truth.

Jimi, if you are reading ^^^^^

Morals and beliefs are subjective.
Parents have every right to pass on their morals and beliefs to their children, and every right to educate their children how they see fit.

Why should children be taught your particular beliefs and philosophies instead of their Parents ? Please provide us proof why your beliefs are true, and should be taught in preference to their parents ?

Would you insist Jewish/Muslim Children are forced to learn another religion instead ?

Instead you want to force Catholic owned schools to teach Catholic Children your subjective beliefs and philosophies instead of their parents. Dream on.

PDN

Monty. wrote: »

In other words they wish to ensure Catholic children are not taught proper Catholicism in their own Catholic owned schools, but instead are forced to be brought up in other peoples preferred religions. Dream on.

No, secular schools usually concentrate on running themselves. They don't dictate to Catholic schools what they do.

Turtwig

Monty. wrote: »

Morals and beliefs are subjective...
Please provide us proof why your beliefs are true...

Er, subjective proofs?

PDN

Monty. wrote: »

Morals and beliefs are subjective.
Parents have every right to pass on their morals and beliefs to their children, and every right to educate their children how they see fit.

Why should children be taught your particular beliefs and philosophies instead of their Parents ? Please provide us proof why your beliefs are true, and should be taught in preference to their parents ?

Would you insist Jewish/Muslim Children are forced to learn another religion instead ?

Instead you want to force Catholic owned schools to teach Catholic Children your subjective beliefs and philosophies instead of their parents. Dream on.

Do you even bother reading posts before replying to them? If you stopped to try to understand what other people are saying then discussion might flow more freely.

No-one is saying their particular beliefs or philosophies should be taught instead of somebody else's. The argument is that, in State-funded schools, the basic facts of all religions should be taught. And then churches and parents are free to do what they should be doing, which is instructing their children in matters of religion (and not expecting anybody else to pay for it).

And, so far, despite your attacks on others and rants about non-existent Atheist schools, you have not offered any coherent answer to that argument.

Monty.

PDN wrote: »

Do you even bother reading posts before replying to them? If you stopped to try to understand what other people are saying then discussion might flow more freely.

No-one is saying their particular beliefs or philosophies should be taught instead of somebody else's. The argument is that, in State-funded schools, the basic facts of all religions should be taught. And then churches and parents are free to do what they should be doing, which is instructing their children in matters of religion (and not expecting anybody else to pay for it).

And, so far, despite your attacks on others and rants about non-existent Atheist schools, you have not offered any coherent answer to that argument.

Catholic parents fund Catholic schools, through their taxes and fundraising.
They are entitle to the same funding as any other denomination of school is.

You're the one that does not bother to read what's posted.

State owned and run schools can teach whatever they want, but Catholic owned schools should be free to teach Catholic Children their own religion.

Many here have suggested that Catholic owned schools should be forced to cease teaching Catholic children their own religion, and instead force them up in other religions, and then it will be none.

Would you insist Jewish/Muslim Children are forced to learn another religion instead of their own ?

J C

PDN wrote: »

But all rather moot since the tax-payer in Ireland is not being forced to fund Atheist Schools that indoctrinate chiidren in those beliefs, or which practice those rites and rituals. Nor are non-atheist children caused to attend Atheist Schools due to a shortage of other schools.

... not yet ... but we shouldn't be complacent ... religion used be allowed in American Public Schools ... but it was banned by law in the 1960s.
... however, the banning of 'religion' in these schools does not include Atheism (because it isn't defined as a 'religion') ... and basic articles of Materialist faith, like Spontaneous Evolution are taught as fact ... and no alternatives (or any criticism of it) are allowed ... because these are classified as 'religion'.
... and all legal challlenges to this position are vigorously defended in America.

... so, 'no religion in school' can easily turn into 'only atheism in school'.

J C

Zombrex wrote: »

It should be pointed out by, you know an atheist, that JC's some what hilarious characture of what an atheist school would be like is nothing like any school I've ever heard atheists wanting to run.

I've never heard of an atheist calling for a school that pretends religion doesn't exist or shouldn't be discussed, which seems to be root of JC's nonsense. Nor would any atheist I know answer "No" to the question of whether or not a god created the universe if asked by a child.

Just because some religious folk want to run schools as authoritative indoctrination centres for their religion don't assume us non-religious types wish the same :rolleyes:

Nobody is saying that Atheists pretend that religion doesn't exist ... they very much know that it does ... but they reject it ... and many would ban it, if they could, from all schools under the principle of 'no religion in school'.

Zombrex wrote: »

Nor would any atheist I know answer "No" to the question of whether or not a god created the universe if asked by a child.

... so would you/they say that God did create the Universe then?

Zombrex

Monty. wrote: »

Morals and beliefs are subjective.
Parents have every right to pass on their morals and beliefs to their children, and every right to educate their children how they see fit.

Why should children be taught your particular beliefs and philosophies instead of their Parents ?

Unless the parents beliefs are that no other religions except for Catholicism actually exist in the world, then there will be absolutely no conflict between Catholics parents and a secular school.

The school should educate with facts. The parents can fill in the their beliefs in parallel to that.

The school should teach Catholicism exists. The parents should say we are Catholics.

The school should teach Hinduism exists. The parents should say we don't believe in Hinduism.

Monty. wrote: »

Please provide us proof why your beliefs are true, and should be taught in preference to their parents ?

You deny there are any other religions in the world except for Catholicism? I doubt that. So what is the problem?

Monty. wrote: »

Would you insist Jewish/Muslim Children are forced to learn another religion instead ?

Not instead, as well. Child should be educated about all the major religions of the world. They should be educated about the facts of these religions, what people believe. They shouldn't be taught by the school that one religion is true and the others aren't. That is for the child to decide when they are old and when they have sufficient information to make such a decision.

Monty. wrote: »

Instead you want to force Catholic owned schools to teach Catholic Children your subjective beliefs and philosophies instead of their parents. Dream on.

A private Catholic school can do what it wants (with in reason). A State school should teach an inclusive curriculum so no parent feels they cannot send their child there. They are after all paying for it.

Zombrex

Monty. wrote: »

Catholic parents fund Catholic schools, through their taxes and fundraising.
They are entitle to the same funding as any other denomination of school is.

And non-Catholic parents fund Catholic schools as well. So why are non-Catholic parents, who are paying just like everyone else, finding themselves in a situation where over 90% of the schools in the country (often 100% of the schools in their areas) are Catholic.

Tax payers money should fund secular multi-denominational schools. That would ensure that every tax payer in that areas can send their child to any State funded school and be sure they can be happy with the school, be they Catholic, CoI, Buddhist, Hindi, Muslim etc.

Monty. wrote: »

State owned and run schools can teach whatever they want, but Catholic owned schools should be free to teach Catholic Children their own religion.

They can so long as they are happy to give up State funding.

Nhead

The religious syllabus in Ireland teaches other religions. Catholic schools don't ignore other religions, run them down etc the issue on the late late had nothing to do with the syllabus. As an aside I attended a state school, we had two nuns in the school you could argue with them if you didn't agree with them just like in other classes. The problem with the VEC system had less to do with religion etc but the attitudes of Irish people towards VECs an attitude that still exists. And JC I think if a teacher acted like that in a classroom it would be very unprofessional.

J C

Nhead wrote: »

The religious syllabus in Ireland teaches other religions. Catholic schools don't ignore other religions, run them down etc the issue on the late late had nothing to do with the syllabus. As an aside I attended a state school, we had two nuns in the school you could argue with them if you didn't agree with them just like in other classes. The problem with the VEC system had less to do with religion etc but the attitudes of Irish people towards VECs an attitude that still exists. And JC I think if a teacher acted like that in a classroom it would be very unprofessional.

Why would it be 'unprofessional'?
... and what answers would an Atheist teacher be expected to provide, in a secular school where religion is banned ... like public schools in America, for example?

J C

Zombrex wrote: »

Tax payers money should fund secular multi-denominational schools. That would ensure that every tax payer in that areas can send their child to any State funded school and be sure they can be happy with the school, be they Catholic, CoI, Buddhist, Hindi, Muslim etc.

... so are you saying that Creationists will be happy in these schools because they will also teach about the discoveries of Creation Science and ID under equality of esteem?

wrote:

Originally Posted by Monty.
State owned and run schools can teach whatever they want, but Catholic owned schools should be free to teach Catholic Children their own religion.


Zombrex
They can so long as they are happy to give up State funding.

That isn't the situation at present in Ireland with faith schools ... and state-funded faith schools are on the increase in Britain.

Nhead

J C wrote: »

Why would it be 'unprofessional'?
... and what answers would an Atheist teacher be expected to provide, in a secular school where religion is banned ... like public schools in America, for example?

A teacher, regardless of creed would be expected to respect the question regardless of their belief system schools have to teach a syllabus. That syllabus is set by the Dept. of Ed. The syllabus isn't up for grabs in Ireland it is about the ownership of the physical building and the ethos of the school. For any teacher to disregard the syllabus would be unprofessional to also dismiss a line of enquiry in the manner you would describe would also be unprofessional. I would also add, and not to start an argument, that we are very different from the American system so I think it is a moot comparison.

JimiTime

J C wrote: »

... so will Creationists be happy in these schools because they will also teach about the discoveries of Creation Science and ID under equality of esteem?

Just to wade in here. Creationism isn't thought in school now anyway. So I'm not sure if this has any relevance to the discussion does it?

Zombrex

J C wrote: »

... so will Creationists be happy in these schools because they will also teach about the discoveries of Creation Science and ID under equality of esteem?

Why would they teach that, since it is not science?

They won't be teaching the Earth is flat either :rolleyes:

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to wade in here. Creationism isn't thought in school now anyway. So I'm not sure if this has any relevance to the discussion does it?

It has no relevance here - but JC is trying to sneak his hobby-horse in by the back door.

Moderating Note:
If anyone wants to discuss creationism then please take it to the Creationism thread.

J C

JimiTime wrote: »

Just to wade in here. Creationism isn't thought in school now anyway. So I'm not sure if this has any relevance to the discussion does it?

It's very relevant, if we are talking about respecting everybody's Faith Position in 'multi-denominational' schools ... or is it only some people's Faith that is going to be respected?

J C

Nhead wrote: »

A teacher, regardless of creed would be expected to respect the question regardless of their belief system schools have to teach a syllabus. That syllabus is set by the Dept. of Ed. The syllabus isn't up for grabs in Ireland it is about the ownership of the physical building and the ethos of the school. For any teacher to disregard the syllabus would be unprofessional to also dismiss a line of enquiry in the manner you would describe would also be unprofessional. I would also add, and not to start an argument, that we are very different from the American system so I think it is a moot comparison.

The point I am making is that children often ask questions that may not be covered by any syllabus ... and then the 'ethos' of the school and the teacher comes into play.... and these questions could be about any aspect of Christian Doctrine ... like Christian Marriage or the Ten Commandments, for example.

If Bible-believing Christian children are going to be dismissed with smart comments about belief in God being equivalent to a belief in fairies or a flat earth ... then that would be a lot less acceptable than if these children had to sit in on a Roman Catholic or a Church of Ireland RE class IMO ... but had their belief in God respected.

... so do you think that an Atheist teacher in a 'multi-denominational' school should say that they respected the belief that Christian Marriage is an ideal basis for family formation and that the Ten Commandments are an excellent moral compass with which to live ones life ... or that God exists and is the Creator of the Universe?
... and if they didn't would that be 'unprofessional'?

J C

PDN wrote: »

It has no relevance here - but JC is trying to sneak his hobby-horse in by the back door.

Moderating Note:
If anyone wants to discuss creationism then please take it to the Creationism thread.

I have no wish to bring Creationism per se onto this thread and I fully agree that it should be discussed (and has been discussed ad nauseum) over on the Mega-thread.

J C

Nhead wrote: »

A teacher, regardless of creed would be expected to respect the question regardless of their belief system schools have to teach a syllabus. That syllabus is set by the Dept. of Ed. The syllabus isn't up for grabs in Ireland it is about the ownership of the physical building and the ethos of the school.

I didn't realise that the RE Syllabus in Roman Catholic Primary Schools was set by the Department of Education ... I thought it was set by the Roman Catholic Church within their ethos.

I've also heard that the 'Follow Me' RE programme in Protestant Primary Schools is based on the Roman Catholic 'Alive O' Programme.

If this whole thing is just an argument over who owns and maintains the school buildings ... then it is a very moot point indeed.

Nhead

J C wrote: »

I didn't realise that the RE Syllabus in Roman Catholic Primary Schools was set by the Department of Education ... I thought it was set by the Roman Catholic Church within their ethos.

I've also heard that the 'Follow Me' RE programme in Protestant Primary Schools is based on the Roman Catholic 'Alive O' Programme.

If this whole thing is just an argument over who owns and maintains the school buildings ... then it is a very moot point indeed.

Sorry I was talking about secondary schools. As I said it would be unprofessional to dismiss a question inside or outside the syllabus based on your beliefs...of course that is in my opinion.But it would also be seen as unprofessional in teacher training colleges. I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, none of the schools have been handed over and people are talking about the ethos of schools that don't exist. The religious beliefs or lack thereof of teachers within these non- existent school is moot as there are plenty of teachers that already
teach with different beliefs in religious and non-religious schools

Not being an atheist I would be loathe to tell them what they should or shouldn't believe. A teacher should respect that their students hold different values and beliefs from them (and not just in terms of religion) for example if a student said in CSPE that in their household they were Sinn Fein supporters it would be wrong of the teacher to say 'well Sinn Fein are criminals and thugs imo'. The same applies to an atheist that would say 'God is only x,y or z' it shouldn't come into the equation and if the teacher personalised the topic like that then it is unprofessional.

In the same breath, a student has no need to know about a teachers personal life or thoughts. You can teach a class Sex Ed. But if a student said 'I believe that you can sleep with as many people as you like, when you like and how you like. Now what is your personal view point on that?'Then they are overstepping the mark.

MrPudding

J C wrote: »

It's very relevant, if we are talking about respecting everybody's Faith Position in 'multi-denominational' schools ... or is it only some people's Faith that is going to be respected?

So they can always say something like "and some believe x." Where x=What ever belief being discussed.

MrP

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
It's very relevant, if we are talking about respecting everybody's Faith Position in 'multi-denominational' schools ... or is it only some people's Faith that is going to be respected?

MrPudding
So they can always say something like "and some believe x." Where x=What ever belief being discussed.

MrP

... so are you saying that this ruckus over Faith Schools in Ireland is just a 'red herring' ... and all that the Roman Catholic Schools need to do is to just say every so often ... "and some people believe that there is no God" ... for Atheists to happily send their children to such schools ... and participate in their RE classes???

MrPudding

J C wrote: »

... so are you saying that this ruckus over Faith Schools in Ireland is just a 'red herring' ... and all that the Roman Catholic Schools need to do is to just say every so often ... "and some people believe that there is no God" ... for Atheists to be satisfied to send their children to such schools ... and participate in their RE classes???

No, that is not what I am saying, and I reckon you knew that. Religion classes, in general, should be of the nature of "and some people believe x." It is not really relevant to anything other than religious teachings as no other area of education is concerned with faith.

MrP

J C

Nhead wrote: »

Sorry I was talking about secondary schools. As I said it would be unprofessional to dismiss a question inside or outside the syllabus based on your beliefs...of course that is in my opinion.But it would also be seen as unprofessional in teacher training colleges. I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, none of the schools have been handed over and people are talking about the ethos of schools that don't exist. The religious beliefs or lack thereof of teachers within these non- existent school is moot as there are plenty of teachers that already
teach with different beliefs in religious and non-religious schools

Not being an atheist I would be loathe to tell them what they should or shouldn't believe. A teacher should respect that their students hold different values and beliefs from them (and not just in terms of religion) for example if a student said in CSPE that in their household they were Sinn Fein supporters it would be wrong of the teacher to say 'well Sinn Fein are criminals and thugs imo'. The same applies to an atheist that would say 'God is only x,y or z' it shouldn't come into the equation and if the teacher personalised the topic like that then it is unprofessional.

In the same breath, a student has no need to know about a teachers personal life or thoughts. You can teach a class Sex Ed. But if a student said 'I believe that you can sleep with as many people as you like, when you like and how you like. Now what is your personal view point on that?'Then they are overstepping the mark.

... and therein lies the rub ... who determines what/where 'the mark' is ... and when it's being overstepped!!!
... in American Public Schools pointing out the scientific inadequacies of Spontaneous Evolution ... or the mere mention of any reason to believe in God, is 'overstepping the mark' ... and it can result in a teacher being sacked ... or a child being expelled for doing so!!!

J C

MrPudding wrote: »

No, that is not what I am saying, and I reckon you knew that. Religion classes, in general, should be of the nature of "and some people believe x." It is not really relevant to anything other than religious teachings as no other area of education is concerned with faith.

MrP

I'm not quite sure what you were saying ... but it seemed to be that Atheists could dismiss the Faith position of other people with the 'one liner' that "some people believe x".

... if this is true ... I don't know why Atheists would have a problem attending Faith Schools ...
... when all that is needed to keep them happy, is the occasional statement that "some people believe that God doesn't exist".

... or was your posting just a classic 'do onto others what you wouldn't tolerate being done onto yourself'???:eek:

hotmail.com

J C wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you were saying ... but it seemed to be that Atheists could dismiss the Faith position of other people with the 'one liner' that "some people believe x".

... if this is true ... I don't know why Atheists would have a problem attending Faith Schools ...
... when all that is needed to keep them happy, is the occasional statement that "some people believe that God doesn't exist".

... or was your posting just a classic 'do onto others what you wouldn't tolerate being done onto yourself'???:eek:

What has the belief in a god got to do with the teaching of maths or English??

J C

hotmail.com wrote: »

What has the belief in a god got to do with the teaching of maths or English??

... so you also have no problem with 90% Roman Catholic Schools then ... just like Mr P!!!