APHCI

spireland32

kscobie wrote: »

Is this for gas installers only, or can any of us oil & solid fuel lads attend ??

EDIT
Sorry, just noticed the date.......

This is for Plumbing and Heating Contractors. Are you rgi or oftec registered? We know this doesn't really mean any real standard of work as such but have to have some type of entry level into the association.

kscobie

Oftec registered , never really got into the gas, subbed it out if it was required, anything that helps increase the standard/awareness of a standard can only be a good thing

spireland32

Absolutely..... We're hoping to get some info and training evenings sorted for the lads more into the oil side of things. Hope to see you at a meeting sometime. (Bring your oftec ID for registration if you do come along at some point in the future)

spireland32

Munster area meeting at the Rochestown Park Hotel Cork. Mon 30 Sep 7 : 30. Members please attend. Non members join at the door.

Some topics on the night;

our major achievement by the withdrawal of the "10 Day Course". 

progress with our sessions in the Dáil, chaired by the Joint Oireachtas Committee between APHCI and the CER

SEAI are meeting APHCI in early October

The decision by Plumb Centre to sell spare parts to RGIs only

Suppliers Evenings

John Reynolds & Gary Tobin are the munster area board members.

DGOBS

The GID has not been withdrawn, the entry requirements have changed have they not? (Agreed for the better)

gifted

spireland32 wrote: »

Munster area meeting at the Rochestown Park Hotel Cork. Mon 30 Sep 7 : 30. Members please attend. Non members join at the door.

Some topics on the night;

our major achievement by the withdrawal of the "10 Day Course". 

progress with our sessions in the Dáil, chaired by the Joint Oireachtas Committee between APHCI and the CER

SEAI are meeting APHCI in early October

The decision by Plumb Centre to sell spare parts to RGIs only

Suppliers Evenings

John Reynolds & Gary Tobin are the munster area board members.

Every gas spare part shop should only sell to RGI's, makes perfect sense.

spireland32

Absolutely but most suppliers just want a sale unfortunately. But we are working with other suppliers on this topic.

shane0007

spireland32 wrote: »

our major achievement by the withdrawal of the "10 Day Course". 

What's all that? Can you expand please?

JohnnieK

Is there still plumbers out there that have to do the GID?

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

What's all that? Can you expand please?

Replaced with the 60% better 16 day cource I think that's what they said at the last RGII meeting in Cork's Silver Springs Hotel.
Mabey it was 18 days !!

Yahoo !!!!

The public is 60% safer

Anybody call a Taxi driver lately ?

shane0007

It was never a 10 day course in the first instance. It was a 12 day course. It is still a 12 day course. The only change to the system is the entry requirements which have now been removed is the entry level of OFTEC. It is now a National Craft Cert for Plumbers, Fitters & Electricians. If you add in the GIS, which is a 6 day course, this is the 18 day course, but it has always been this way!
This has been pushed for the past 3 years anyhow & CER has now agreed. Last acceptance must have completed their GID by 31 Dec 2013.

So my question is still to Spireland, can he expand on the "removal of the 10 day course"?

Don't get me wrong, it's a huge step in the right direction, I just want to know if there is other information regarding my profession that I am missing.
To me, I think the system should mimic that of the UK, where it is a 6 month full time course & then followed by a 6 month "under wing" on-site apprenticeship before you can be allowed to work on gas on your own.

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

It was never a 10 day course in the first instance. It was a 12 day course. It is still a 12 day course. The only change to the system is the entry requirements which have now been removed is the entry level of OFTEC. It is now a National Craft Cert for Plumbers, Fitters & Electricians. If you add in the GIS, which is a 6 day course, this is the 18 day course, but it has always been this way!
This has been pushed for the past 3 years anyhow & CER has now agreed. Last acceptance must have completed their GID by 31 Dec 2013.

So my question is still to Spireland, can he expand on the "removal of the 10 day course"?

Don't get me wrong, it's a huge step in the right direction, I just want to know if there is other information regarding my profession that I am missing.
To me, I think the system should mimic that of the UK, where it is a 6 month full time course & then followed by a 6 month "under wing" on-site apprenticeship before you can be allowed to work on gas on your own.

+1 on that. About been like the UK min requirements.

JohnnieK

I was at the end of my first 6 months of my 1st year of my apprenticship when I was alowed to do minor pipe fitting supervised.
When I came out of FAS into my second year and then into collage again I was then alowed to pipe heating and plumbing systems unsupervised. I was in my fourth year before I was alowed to do gas works unsupervised but the foreman would always test with me.

In my opinion this is the way it should be.
If someone want's to work on gas it should be through a proper apprentiship.

Maybe thats just the plumbing snob coming out but hay.

I was in a taxi about a year ago and he had RGI stickers on the car. I asked him what the craic was. He done the GIS and then the GID 2.5 years back and is a registared gas installer, all leagal all bonafide, but he only does the servicing and not installs. By the end of the journy I wanted to punch the face off him, I dont blame him, there was actually no one there to stop him from doing the gis and gid.

It's bad enough he is a part time taxi driver but a part time RGI too.

I was angry before but it all just goes over my head now.

scudo2

JohnnieK wrote: »

I was at the end of my first 6 months of my 1st year of my apprenticship when I was alowed to do minor pipe fitting supervised.
When I came out of FAS into my second year and then into collage again I was then alowed to pipe heating and plumbing systems unsupervised. I was in my fourth year before I was alowed to do gas works unsupervised but the foreman would always test with me.

In my opinion this is the way it should be.
If someone want's to work on gas it should be through a proper apprentiship.

Maybe thats just the plumbing snob coming out but hay.

I was in a taxi about a year ago and he had RGI stickers on the car. I asked him what the craic was. He done the GIS and then the GID 2.5 years back and is a registared gas installer, all leagal all bonafide, but he only does the servicing and not installs. By the end of the journy I wanted to punch the face off him, I dont blame him, there was actually no one there to stop him from doing the gis and gid.

It's bad enough he is a part time taxi driver but a part time RGI too.

I was angry before but it all just goes over my head now.

All this and no random checks on previous jobs is only leading to one outcome........


Totaly agree Johnnee,
But the state is also responcible with all their quick free cources and back to work scheeems.

Shane is right about the better, but not best, by a long way, UK system.

But at least it's totally for boilers. The slight fault been that our old way ment that some plumbers never saw a boiler if all the ever did was bathrooms or something like pipe fitting.
As our training only covered what type of work our employers did.
But at least the weren't Taxi drivers, I also know of a country post man doing oil boilers !

Your training was one of the best ways.
Myself also, over apprentiship + the rest of our working lives.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/plumber-facing-manslaughter-charges-after-carbonmonoxide-poisoning-death-of-woman-on-hen-weekend-29590767.html

Seeing a persons face makes things more real for me and the above link shows two who have been desperately let down.

Both the RGI and the victim would have been served better by a proper gas training system that produced real qualified safe gas engineers.

The mistakes that have been made that have cost lives recently are mistakes that wouldn't have been made with proper training.

How many more lives need to be lost till we stop pretending it's ok to allow some ill prepared RGI's to carry on working under the RGII banner before a real testing procedure is introduced that identifies those RGI 's that need extra training and gives it to them bring us all up to a excepted safe standard. That pretty lady need not have died, very sad.

scudo2

gary71 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/plumber-facing-manslaughter-charges-after-carbonmonoxide-poisoning-death-of-woman-on-hen-weekend-29590767.html

Seeing a persons face makes things more real for me and the above link shows two who have been desperately let down.

Both the RGI and the victim would have been served better by a proper gas training system that produced real qualified safe gas engineers.

The mistakes that have been made that have cost lives recently are mistakes that wouldn't have been made with proper training.

How many more lives need to be lost till we stop pretending it's ok to allow some ill prepared RGI's to carry on working under the RGII banner before a real testing procedure is introduced that identifies those RGI 's that need extra training and gives it to them bring us all up to a excepted safe standard. That pretty lady need not have died, very sad.

Agree as I know the feeling.

Wished it was also for solid fuel & oil.

The Worlds not perfect but at least lets have the best system possible + regular random spot checks to keep everybody on their toes.

My heart goes out to everybody affected in this case but I do have strong feelings and opinions due to personal experence and STRONGLY recommend that we don't comment till the out come of the case.

We all have our own and possibly simular opinions.
Thanks. MD

Robbie.G

JohnnieK wrote: »

I was at the end of my first 6 months of my 1st year of my apprenticship when I was alowed to do minor pipe fitting supervised.
When I came out of FAS into my second year and then into collage again I was then alowed to pipe heating and plumbing systems unsupervised. I was in my fourth year before I was alowed to do gas works unsupervised but the foreman would always test with me.

In my opinion this is the way it should be.
If someone want's to work on gas it should be through a proper apprentiship.

Maybe thats just the plumbing snob coming out but hay.

I was in a taxi about a year ago and he had RGI stickers on the car. I asked him what the craic was. He done the GIS and then the GID 2.5 years back and is a registared gas installer, all leagal all bonafide, but he only does the servicing and not installs. By the end of the journy I wanted to punch the face off him, I dont blame him, there was actually no one there to stop him from doing the gis and gid.

It's bad enough he is a part time taxi driver but a part time RGI

But John there are lads here that only service and repair that doesn't make them bad fitters in some cases it can make them better than most as they only do one thing so you can get very good at it.
Personly I don't agree with the system that's there and would rather see fitters coming from a trade background.

I think the first question when looking at a RGI should be do they work in a safe manor or are they a danger, this can be identified easily by asking a couple of different cheeky questions on a yearly inspection and if we fail that then it should be flagged and a training process implemented.

Their are many different types of RGI's that come from different backgrounds with different abilitys but I think we should start at the start "are you going to kill somebody."

As APHCI are doing well with getting the ear of the powers that be I'd love it if safe working practise testing was was top of the list of things todo.

(And I'm not trying imply APHCI don't take safety seriously)

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

The only change to the system is the entry requirements which have now been removed is the entry level of OFTEC. It is now a National Craft Cert for Plumbers, Fitters & Electricians.

With all due respect to Electricians i can't for the life of me see how they have the requirements, don,t Plasterers also have Trade Certs.

scudo2

Billy Bunting wrote: »

With all due respect to Electricians i can't for the life of me see how they have the requirements, don,t Plasterers also have Trade Certs.

Answer is : RECI operate RGII


It could be worse, imagine if the "Taxi Federation of Ireland" ran it !!!!

Billy Bunting

scudo2 wrote: »

Answer is : RECI operate RGII

It could be worse, imagine if the "Taxi Federation of Ireland" ran it !!!!

So does that give me the requirements to do a 12 10 day coarse and then sell myself as an Electrician, i think not.
And i still think its 10 days from what i have seen of it, day one is wasted on mumbling and admin and day 12 is just a race to get the exams question and answer session done. :rolleyes:

I recently had a local "RGI" ask me if he could loan my FGA for his inspection, i suggested he buy one as he would surely need it, he replied he had no intention of going near boilers and thought it a joke that he needed to fork out money for the inspection. :mad:

Billy Bunting

Billy Bunting wrote: »

So does that give me the requirements to do a 12 10 day coarse and then sell myself as an Electrician, i think not.
And i still think its 10 days from what i have seen of it, day one is wasted on mumbling and admin and day 12 is just a race to get the exams question and answer session done. :rolleyes:

I recently had a local "RGI" ask me if he could loan my FGA for his inspection, i suggested he buy one as he would surely need it, he replied he had no intention of going near boilers and thought it a joke that he needed to fork out money for the inspection. :mad:

Yep.

I have my Part P which is a requirement to be GASSAFE(UK) registered and allows me to work as a sparks and sign off on my own work if I was stupid enough to think I was able to wire a house.

So the powers that be have decide that there's very little difference between sparks and gas engineers.

I find there are now many more unsuitable RGI's that require extra training or should be shown the door than when I first started working here 10 years ago.

Exactly who decided(somebody did:mad:) that it would be ok to allow absolutely anybody to work in people's homes with no quilfications or experience on a substance that can go bang or produce a poison, it's not like there was a shortage of decent experienced candidates.

JohnnieK

Robbie.G wrote: »

But John there are lads here that only service and repair that doesn't make them bad fitters in some cases it can make them better than most as they only do one thing so you can get very good at it.
Personly I don't agree with the system that's there and would rather see fitters coming from a trade background.

If the only service and repair they shouldn't be fitters but technicians. It should be separated into installers who install and service and then technicians who just service.

I also know lads who have no trade certs but are very good at what they do, but i think a compatant test should be done both theory and practical.

I'm not trying to take work from people but gas fitting is no longer a stand alone trade it was amalgamated into the plumbing apprenticeship in the late eighties.

JohnnieK

Billy Bunting wrote: »

With all due respect to Electricians i can't for the life of me see how they have the requirements, don,t Plasterers also have Trade Certs.

Electricians should be sent on a course to wire central heating systems. I know 10 sparks and i would say only 3 would now how to do it.

Robbie.G

JohnnieK wrote: »

If the only service and repair they shouldn't be fitters but technicians. It should be separated into installers who install and service and then technicians who just service.
.

I totally agree with you on that Johnnie.
I think we'll be a long time waiting for Rgii to implement a system like that but it would be good to see it

scudo2

ALL INSTALLERS / SERVICE ENG.
Be they on a list or not should be legaly required to have a FGA to do a safety check on ALL appliances they work on be it solid fuel ( checking chimney for leakage) + Oil and gas,

Not to borrow one just for their one and only inspection in a year.

You should legaly have to Test all appliances you have worked on be it a new instulation or service on ALL fuel types.

Can somebody please make this a legal requirement.

Dtp1979

scudo2 wrote: »

ALL INSTALLERS / SERVICE ENG.
Be they on a list or not should be legaly required to have a FGA to do a safety check on ALL appliances they work on be it solid fuel ( checking chimney for leakage) + Oil and gas,

Not to borrow one just for their one and only inspection in a year.

You should legaly have to Test all appliances you have worked on be it a new instulation or service on ALL fuel types.

Can somebody please make this a legal requirement.

That's gonna fall on deaf ears I'm afraid scudo. It's terrible. I'm new enough to the gas industry and I always put safety first and am always learning.
I've had 3 Rgi inspections and not once was I asked to produce my FGA. Actually my analyser wasn't even mentioned.
But the opposite for Oftec, I even had to show my units calibration cert

scudo2

Dtp1979 wrote: »

That's gonna fall on deaf ears I'm afraid scudo. It's terrible. I'm new enough to the gas industry and I always put safety first and am always learning.
I've had 3 Rgi inspections and not once was I asked to produce my FGA. Actually my analyser wasn't even mentioned.
But the opposite for Oftec, I even had to show my units calibration cert

Do I have a FGA was the first question I was asked !!!
Why the difference ?

Dtp1979

scudo2 wrote: »

Do I have a FGA was the first question I was asked !!!
Why the difference ?

God only knows!

JohnnieK

Dtp1979 wrote: »

God only knows!

My inspector went to a oil to gas install i done as my annual inspection. He even put a u gauge on the inlet and put her on high fire to check inlet pressure. I was dead chuffed at that. My inspection this year was an lpg installation and got me to check inlet pressure while the hob was on. He then checked to make sure i put the lpg sticker on the boiler that comes with the conversion kit.

I hope there all like that.