Irish in the Irish education system/An Ghaeilge sa chóras oideachais Éireannach

randylonghorn

spalpinfanach wrote: »

tá an thread seo théis mo chroí a bhriste.. tá fhios agam go bhfuil neart daoine cé nach bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge, ach chun a rá go bhfuil sí marbh? nuair is léir go bhfuil sí i bhfad ón mbás..
ba chóir dóibh a bheith bródúil as an t-aon rud atá fághta againn sa thír seo.. is páirt dár n-oidhreacht í, má leanann muid ar aghaidh sa threo seo beidh an áit ina bhfuil cónaí orainn díreach cosúil le Sasana....

Hi spalpinfanach, welcome to Boards!

Please note that it is site policy that English is the primary language of the site, as that is what the vast majority of our users speak.

This section of the site is available for those who wish to speak only Irish.

And you are certainly welcome to use Irish in many of the other forums on the site, including this one, but the sitewide rule is that posters who wish to do so must also provide a translation of their posts into English as well (as the first poster in this thread has done).

wayhey

AlexderFranke wrote: »

I did not have but about 500 school lessons in English and 150 schools lessons in French at school. And I was fluent in English and still able to do a conversation in French about everything with some help.

With all due respect, it's very difficult to compare learning Irish to English or French. Irish grammar, I would argue, has a lot more exceptions than French grammar. "Simple" words in English, like "progess", become multiple word translations in Irish ("dul chun cinn".. I think). It's a much harder language than French IMO, regardless of how it's taught. I always found French tenses much easier, with more overlap.

Both English and French have a rich culture. It's easy to find access to interesting televison, articles, websites and films. Contemporary Irish culture is saturated with English, so it's no real surprise that children accelerate much more quickly in English. Even interesting French material is easier to access here.

prendizzle wrote: »

If people spent less time complaining and more time using Irish then this wouldn't be an issue. I know I'm in the minority, but I just thought I'd voice my opinion!

This is the only way we'll ever keep the language going. I don't think the minority is as small as you'd think prendizzle. I think a lot of people would like to be more capable at speaking Irish. I know that despite the course and our godawful Gaeilge we loved speaking Irish by the end of 6th Year.

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This is about whether Irish should be mandatory as a LC subject. If you choose to speak Urdu every day, that too is your right. How useful would speaking Irish be in a job interview situation in London, Tokyo or Cork ?
There is a small department in the Irish civil service where it is a necessary job-skill. There's a post or two in Brussels for someone who can translate English/French/German/Spanish ->Irish. Thats about it.
I have no emotions about Irish. I ignored it a long time ago (20 years) and did Art as a substitute honours subject. Easily done then. Now the rich kids get dyslexia.

Learning languages has other benefits. It takes discipline and bestows cultural understanding. Your argument reduces Irish down to its practical use- could I suggest that we get rid of Art, seeing as it has no real impact in a job interview? What about the myriad of Humanities subjects at third level like Philosophy? You're applying Irish to completely unsuitable scenarios (Tokyo/London). What if you want to work with TG4, Raidio na Life, or Foinse? There are other benefits to education apart from getting a job. I don't regret learning Irish even though it's unlikely I'll ever use it in a 9 to 5 situation. It's important to understand our own roots, our own history, our own culture.

Children leaving primary school should be able to converse in Irish, end of. They need to have a basic, but concrete, knowledge of grammar. I'd never heard of the saorbriathar or learned to work with masculine/feminine words before I repeated my Leaving. It had never ever come up before in any Irish class I'd had, primary or secondary. That seems insane. That's changing now though I think, towards that.

Splitting Irish into 2 subjects is a great idea. Leaving Cert Irish 2012 has been changed greatly, with increased marks for the oral, no history, new poetry and even a picture story in the oral. It's a positive step, but I would've preferred to have seen an Irish Language (written, spoken, listening) and Irish Literature and History (perhaps even with an exam through English?). Another huge problem on Irish papers is the use of complicated words, people not understanding questions and becoming completely frustrated.

Consideration of bonus points. Honours Maths is by no means easy- but neither is Honours Irish. I studied bloody hard, every day, and still only got a B in Higher Irish. I think the elevation of Honours Maths is fair enough given its difficulty - but IMO HL Irish takes just as much dedication and hard work. Maybe we could give bonus points at some colleges, which would receive funding to develop and continue the language, eg at NUI Galway?

I would be in favour for completely educating in Irish. It's controversial, but it's the only way to revive the language to any half decent level. I don't think English literacy would struggle all that much anyway with our exposure to British and American media. It's a cruel, tough language- but it's very beautiful.

sdiff

wayhey wrote: »

Learning languages has other benefits. It takes discipline and bestows cultural understanding. Your argument reduces Irish down to its practical use- could I suggest that we get rid of Art, seeing as it has no real impact in a job interview?
What about the myriad of Humanities subjects at third level like Philosophy? You're applying Irish to completely unsuitable scenarios (Tokyo/London). What if you want to work with TG4, Raidio na Life, or Foinse? There are other benefits to education apart from getting a job. I don't regret learning Irish even though it's unlikely I'll ever use it in a 9 to 5 situation. It's important to understand our own roots, our own history, our own culture.

Children leaving primary school should be able to converse in Irish, end of. They need to have a basic, but concrete, knowledge of grammar. I'd never heard of the saorbriathar or learned to work with masculine/feminine words before I repeated my Leaving. It had never ever come up before in any Irish class I'd had, primary or secondary. That seems insane. That's changing now though I think, towards that.

Splitting Irish into 2 subjects is a great idea. Leaving Cert Irish 2012 has been changed greatly, with increased marks for the oral, no history, new poetry and even a picture story in the oral. It's a positive step, but I would've preferred to have seen an Irish Language (written, spoken, listening) and Irish Literature and History (perhaps even with an exam through English?). Another huge problem on Irish papers is the use of complicated words, people not understanding questions and becoming completely frustrated.

Consideration of bonus points. Honours Maths is by no means easy- but neither is Honours Irish. I studied bloody hard, every day, and still only got a B in Higher Irish. I think the elevation of Honours Maths is fair enough given its difficulty - but IMO HL Irish takes just as much dedication and hard work. Maybe we could give bonus points at some colleges, which would receive funding to develop and continue the language, eg at NUI Galway?

I would be in favour for completely educating in Irish. It's controversial, but it's the only way to revive the language to any half decent level. I don't think English literacy would struggle all that much anyway with our exposure to British and American media. It's a cruel, tough language- but it's very beautiful.

Regarding your first paragraph - nobody's suggesting we get rid of it. I want it to be completely optional in the same way art or philosophy or humanities are.

The rest of your post assumes that reviving the language is something the general population wants. It isn't. Irish is a dead language, enough said. There is no reason to revive it. I'm glad to have been born in a country with English as the first language. It means I can easily converse with the people in USA, Canada, Australia, UK, most of Europe etc.

AdamD

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This is about whether Irish should be mandatory as a LC subject. If you choose to speak Urdu every day, that too is your right. How useful would speaking Irish be in a job interview situation in London, Tokyo or Cork ?
There is a small department in the Irish civil service where it is a necessary job-skill. There's a post or two in Brussels for someone who can translate English/French/German/Spanish ->Irish. Thats about it.
I have no emotions about Irish. I ignored it a long time ago (20 years) and did Art as a substitute honours subject. Easily done then. Now the rich kids get dyslexia.

what

randylonghorn

sdiff wrote: »

The rest of your post assumes that reviving the language is something the general population wants. It isn't.

Can you provide any evidence from a national survey to back up that assertion?

For that matter, can those who disagree with you provide any evidence from such a source that it IS something the general population wants?

If not, can both sides please stop making black-and-white statements and taking it upon themselves to speak for 4+ million people.

You are certainly entitled to offer your personal opinion, and for that opinion to be respected, but that's all it is without empirical evidence ... a *personal* opinion.

sdiff wrote: »

Irish is a dead language, enough said.

Irish is not a dead language. A "dead language" has a specific technical meaning, as has been pointed out on this thread already. Latin is a dead language. Irish is not. Neither is Welsh, as someone else was suggesting.

In danger? Yes, one could say that. Dying? You would get people arguing both points of view, but certainly the argument could be made. Dead? No.

Adding "enough said" or "Fact!" to an obviously erroneous statement does not strengthen your argument; it just makes people roll their eyes to heaven, and probably skip the rest of your post! :pac:

sdiff

randylonghorn wrote: »

<snip>

First paragraph: Surely if the majority of people want to learn it then there's no harm in making it optional? Let those who want to learn Irish learn it, let the rest of us drop it. I know I would have dropped it before I even started secondary school. And I know I'll never speak a word of it again once I leave. Add the fact that it doesn't teach any skills that improve myself or my job prospects and there's absolutely no reaosn to force me to learn it.

The second paragraph is just semantics. Dead - well apart from a few remote places yes it is. It isn't spoken in the vast majority of the country. Endagered - yes. Dying - Probably. Useless - apart from a select few who want to work in the gaeltacht or radio na life - definitely.

AlexderFranke

Bhuel, is fiú an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh do ghach dhalta as meas roimh na cainteoirî dúchais agus is den phobal bundúchasach iad mar na hÉireannaî eile. Sin point eile. Is léir go bhfuil fòs idir 50.000 agus 100.000 acu ann ar fud na tíre. Is seafòid iad figiúirí níos ísle.

Smaoinim gur cheart go deo rialacha eagsúla a chur isteach i gceantair in aice leis an nGaeltacht seachas taobh istigh í féin de réir na Gaeilge ar scoil.

Roimh an dTeastas Søisearach, ní bhíonn tuairimeacha féin na ndaltaí socruithe cheana agus is an bhealach is fearr an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh do ghach éinne go dtí an dTeastas Sòiséarach . Mura múintear í go míthaitneamhach, is dóigh nach dtosaíonn an drogall nó an grá roimh an dteanga faoi bhun na haoise seo.


Well, it's worth teaching Irish to each student out of respect to the native speàkers while they are of the indigènous people as the other Irish people. It's clear that between 50.000 and 100.000 of them are still there throughout the country. Lower figures are non-sense

I think that different rules ought to be set up in areas near the Gaeltacht regarding Irish at school beneath inside itself.

The own opinion of students is usually not yet settled until the Junior Certificate and it is the best way to teach Irish to everybody until the Junior Certificate. Unless the teaching is unpleasant, the Reluctance or love for the language is not used to begin before that age.

Go n-éirí libh, Alex

ClaireBearBoat

I went to a primary school situated in the gaeltacht, which means I did all subjects (apart from english of course ) through Irish..( maths, science, history etc. ) I spoke Irish constantly from the age of 5 to 12 and then went on into an english speaking secondary school. I found the transition from learning all my subjects through Irish to learning them all through English very easy! I'm doing my Leaving Cert next June and I find that Irish is my easiest subject. The other people who came from my primary school into my secondary school all find Irish a breeze as well.

Basically, I'm saying that if you have a strong foundation of Irish in primary school then the LC course is very easy to do well in. The way Irish is taught at primary level needs to be seriously looked at because I remember some people who didn't know what a "solas" was in 1st year :eek:

LordSutch

ClaireBearBoat wrote: »

I went to a primary school situated in the gaeltacht . . .

Basically, I'm saying that if you have a strong foundation of Irish in primary school then the LC course is very easy to do well in. The way Irish is taught at primary level needs to be seriously looked at because I remember some people who didn't know what a "solas" was in 1st year :eek:

Well indeed, but what % of children in Ireland go to Primary school in a gaeltacht?

Between 1% and 5% I guess?

prendizzle

LordSutch wrote: »

Well indeed, but what % of children in Ireland go to Primary school in a gaeltacht?

Between 1% and 5% I guess?

There are nearly 200 gaelscoileanna (irish speaking schools) that cater for primary school children. Stop guessing...

spalpinfanach

randylonghorn wrote: »

Hi spalpinfanach, welcome to Boards!

Please note that it is site policy that English is the primary language of the site, as that is what the vast majority of our users speak.

This section of the site is available for those who wish to speak only Irish.

And you are certainly welcome to use Irish in many of the other forums on the site, including this one, but the sitewide rule is that posters who wish to do so must also provide a translation of their posts into English as well (as the first poster in this thread has done).

no problem babes!
gan fhadbh a thaisce......

randylonghorn

spalpinfanach wrote: »

no problem babes!
gan fhadbh a thaisce......

Tá fáilte romhat / you're welcome!



Sínithe / signed:

Babes.

AdamD

randylonghorn wrote: »

Tá fáilte romhat / you're welcome!



Sínithe / signed:

Babes.

Its the new Ciara

deise go deo

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Ní raibh ach timpeall 500 ceacht scoile an Bhéarla agus 150 ceacht scoile na Fraincise agam ar scoil. Agus bhí mé líofa as Béarla agus fós in ann comhrá a dhéanamh as Fraincis faoi ghach scéal le neart cuidithe. Feictear dom go luann an Rialtas Canaideach luachanna ró-ard.

I did not have but about 500 school lessons in English and 150 schools lessons in French at school. And I was fluent in English and still able to do a conversation in French about everything with some help.

Were those 500 lessons in English the only contact you ever had with the language? Or did you use it/listen to it outside the classroom as well?

One of the big problems with learning Irish is that most pupils never come into contact with it outside the classroom and as such the only contact time they have with the language is in the classroom, this means that outside of saying 'an bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an Leithris' most pupils never get to practice actually speaking the language. Most class time, even since the change to 50% for LC Oral, is given to reading/ listening to the teacher speaking, and this results in most students being able to understand spoken/written Irish to a generally reasonable degree, but not being able to speak the language very well.

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

Well indeed, but what % of children in Ireland go to Primary school in a gaeltacht?

Between 1% and 5% I guess?

Between Schools in the Gaeltacht and Gaelscoils around the country roughly 7.8% of Primary school kids are educated through Irish (Republic only)

At Second Level it is roughly 4.1% educated through Irish.