Console Ban 3-9-11 (Mod Warning Post #755)

hightower1

Angry Mom wrote: »

Again, the human element, though it may not be profitable one would hope that these multibillion companies would hold themselves to some sort of moral standard, if not, then they really have no business holding their customers accountable to any moral standard either. That's the problem with business today, the bottom line is dollars not morals, is that the kind of world we want to leave behind for our kids and grandkids? I'm naive I know but I would like to have a little more faith in human kind, I don't believe in accepting the unacceptable just because that's the way it is. If everyone did that women wouldn't be able to vote today and segregation would still exist. Change can be affected, it may take a century or more but it can be affected and we should never stop striving to make the world a better place for all who inhabit it.

hightower1

Angry Mom wrote: »

Gizmo, again, you are missing the point, it isn't about emotional anguish either, it's about protecting one's right to not have their character slandered or morals questioned, regardless of merit, if you are so willing to hand over that right to Microsoft than you deserve any slanderous words they throw your way. Lets be realistic here, how hard is it really to set up an appeal process for console bans....umm...not really hard.

1. Set up satellite ban center at various locations, maybe retailers.
2. Those who would like to appeal are charged a fee to have console reviewed.
3. Fee is reimbursed if console found to be legit and service reinstated.
4. Fee kept by Microsoft if console found to be modded and service not reinstated.

Not that hard and the benefit, customers are treated with some level of fairness, Microsoft can identify problems in their own systems if through the
appeal process it appears consoles are being unjustly banned which helps
customers like you Gizmo who may be the next one caught in the crossfire
when the next ban wave hits and in addition the appeal process may even restore people's faith that Microsoft really means it when they say " we care".

And we can all then pay and extra ten euro (or dollar) per month to foot the bill for this.... personally, I'm ok thanks. I'll run the very small risk of being mistakenly banned for 3 weeks then reimbursed after which rather than foot the bill for the handful or people a year that would benefit in the end.

Angry Mom

Hightower 1, thank you for reinforcing my point, making mountains out of mole hills, maybe one day when your child is being accused of being a thief and liar with no opportunity to defend themselves maybe you can revisit your diagram and see that the problem is not that people are making mountains out of mole hills but that they aren't and that is exactly the reason why businesses have ended up the way they are today. You must be a suit-can't see beyond the dollar signs.

Angry Mom

"And we can all then pay and extra ten euro (or dollar) per month to foot the bill for this.... personally, I'm ok thanks. I'll run the very small risk of being mistakenly banned for 3 weeks then reimbursed after which rather than foot the bill for the handful or people a year that would benefit in the end."

Umm...you wouldn't be reimbursed for being mistakingly banned because remember you don't want to pay the extra ten euros to foot the bill for an appeals process, you're right forking out 200 euros for a new console is a way better deal. And by the way that "handful" you are referring to is my son.

hightower1

Angry Mom wrote: »

"And we can all then pay and extra ten euro (or dollar) per month to foot the bill for this.... personally, I'm ok thanks. I'll run the very small risk of being mistakenly banned for 3 weeks then reimbursed after which rather than foot the bill for the handful or people a year that would benefit in the end."

Umm...you wouldn't be reimbursed for being mistakingly banned because remember you don't want to pay the extra ten euros to foot the bill for an appeals process, you're right forking out 200 euros for a new console is a way better deal. And by the way that "handful" you are referring to is my son.

Ehhh, read the thread or any of the linked articles..... everyone mistakenly banned IS getting reimbursed.

Hence my point that we dont need these changes you stated and the associated cost every user would have to pay, and by the way every other user you would have pay to protect your sons reputation is everyone here.

Angry Mom

Hightower, no offence, but get off your high tower. We are not playing with the same deck of cards so just give it up.

PseudoFamous

Angry Mom wrote: »

Hightower, no offence, but get off your high tower. We are not playing with the same deck of cards so just give it up.

Read: I don't like that you're actually correct, so I'm going to both ignore your post and belittle you.

Angry Mom

Umm...No.....If either one of you read my original post it suggested a fee to be paid by those that were banned to have their console reviewed which would then be reimbursed if the accusation was proven to be false and kept by Microsoft if not. Wherein there does it say that anyone is asking you to foot the bill? Again, different decks.

PseudoFamous

Angry Mom wrote: »

Wherein there does it say that anyone is asking you to foot the bill?

There are not enough people willing to hand over their console that they know is hacked along with €50, and get nothing back.

This is not feasible. Microsoft would NEED to pay for this out of pocket, as the only people who are going to go to them are the ones that they will need to reimburse. Couple this with staff costs, and we have a fire for microsoft to throw money into.

Angry Mom

Well, that would be Microsoft's decision to charge their customers to prove their innocence not mine, the other alternative is not pretty either but only those affected by it over the last 3 weeks would really understand that. FYI by "different decks", I was not referring to full and empty but differing view points. Well, it's been fun bantering back and forth with you guys but I am off to watch my now innocent son kick some butt in rugby/football, whatever you call it over there. Cheers, to all you lot over the pond.

pH

As someone who was sceptical initially, fair play to everyone for pushing on. I've always said that MS should tell customers why their console was banned - and I think as an upshot of this MS are going to have to do this at some stage in the future.

The problem now as I see it is not with the incorrect bans - it was with the support staff who told customers that they were in the wrong and that MS don't make mistakes, consoles can't be unbanned, no we can't tell you what you did wrong and buy a new console. While MS had a 100% record this was marginally acceptable. Having had support staff lie to and mistreat innocent paying customers was not acceptable.

At the very least now support staff will have to follow a different drone script, at least allowing the customer complaint be noted and followed up.

On a side note I also think that we need stronger consumer legislation in this area. Fine MS can ban you for breaking their Terms & Conditions (say like changing your avatar's skin colour to blue) - but should they really be allowed "keep" your xbox subscription and unspent MSP in these cases?

Elmidena

Glad to hear that your xbox is back up and running for you OP, I guess their bans aren't so irreverisble at all!

I've nominated this thread for legends of the boards here this has been one of the funniest threads I've read in a while, and all the twists and turns in it were epic.

But most importantly, what's going to happen with the son's arse?

Jelle1880

pH wrote: »

As someone who was sceptical initially, fair play to everyone for pushing on. I've always said that MS should tell customers why their console was banned - and I think as an upshot of this MS are going to have to do this at some stage in the future.

The problem now as I see it is not with the incorrect bans - it was with the support staff who told customers that they were in the wrong and that MS don't make mistakes, consoles can't be unbanned, no we can't tell you what you did wrong and buy a new console. While MS had a 100% record this was marginally acceptable. Having had support staff lie to and mistreat innocent paying customers was not acceptable.

At the very least now support staff will have to follow a different drone script, at least allowing the customer complaint be noted and followed up.

On a side note I also think that we need stronger consumer legislation in this area. Fine MS can ban you for breaking their Terms & Conditions (say like changing your avatar's skin colour to blue) - but should they really be allowed "keep" your xbox subscription and unspent MSP in these cases?

Lie ?
Who ever mentioned that customers were in the wrong ?

All that was said was that support staff can not tell customers why they are banned.

NORTH1

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Lie ?
Who ever mentioned that customers were in the wrong ?

All that was said was that support staff can not tell customers why they are banned.

I was told I had broken the terms of service...

Hello Mr. Boyle,

I am sending this email to you as requested in our telephone conversation.

Your console was banned as we found it was in violation of the Terms of Use.

Consoles are only ever banned after a thorough investigation and when we are certain that it was used to violate the Terms of Use.

Kind regards,
G B
Xbox Global Escalations

The above was not true so that would make it a lie and as for the thorough investigation well that was a lie too.

NORTH1

Dear Brian Boyle,

This letter is in response to the email you had addressed to Microsoft Corporation through the Better Business Bureau of Alaska, Oregon and Western Washington regarding concerns you described with Xbox Live.

As discussed, your console was found to be in violation of the Xbox Terms of Use and subsequently banned from accessing Xbox LIVE. We have taken additional steps to review and reconfirm the enforcement action taken against the console and stand behind the decision.

Consoles can be suspended from Xbox LIVE for a number of reasons including, but not limited to:
*Console tampering: Physically opening the Xbox and modifying it to play illegitimate software.
*Online fraud: Attempting to social engineer users, take over Xbox LIVE accounts, or other fraudulent activities.
*Repeat egregious violations: Multiple actions taken on accounts on the console by the Enforcement team for disrupting the service or impacting users.

Additional information about console suspensions can be found at www.xbox.com/consoleban

You can review the Terms of Use at: http://www.xbox.com/en-us/legal/livetou.htm

We apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced and we hope you will continue to be a valued customer. Microsoft now considers this issue closed and will take no further action on the matter. For any support needs in the future, please contact 1-800-4MY-XBOX.

Sincerely,

Xbox Customer Support
Microsoft Corporation]

I have loads of these over the last three weeks.

chopperbyrne

You personally were not accused of anything. You were simply told that your console was found to have been used against the terms.

At the time they didn't know about the software fault. I don't see where anyone lied to you.

NORTH1

chopperbyrne wrote: »

You personally were not accused of anything. You were simply told that your console was found to have been used against the terms.

At the time they didn't know about the software fault. I don't see where anyone lied to you.

Yes the way microsoft worded it does seem a little cynical by saying the box is at fault not the user. But even that was not true.

They made the statement, ignorance is not a defence, if they were not sure they should have investigated it thoroughly like they said they did.

NORTH1

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Stop clutching at straws.

It was banned for good reason.

Lots of households have more than one console that would purchase the same content.

Chopperbyrne Do you still want to stand over this statement? or do you want to correct it?

NORTH1

hightower1 wrote: »

Think of it this way, MS are the market leader in online console MP gaming and infrastructure. They have been running credible online service for years now and I personally or even through hearsay have never.. not once.. ever heard of a wrongfull ban.

I would imagine the team they have are top notch tbh. To add to the security I would image they have to actually build a case for the decision to be made to ban someone. Finally - EVERYTHING, absolutely everything , done on live , by its very nature for the service to work HAS to be logged and recorded so even if there was an initial mistake with proposing a ban on a console they would certainly have another employee double check the logs for the console mac address and the gamertag.


I wouldnt be betting against MS being wrong on this one to be honest.
Attempting to take them to court for something like this while seeming noble and very "david Vs golliath" is at best a waste of time and an excersise in setting the table for the festival of all festivals of humble pie eating contests.

Lets dispense with any brevado here.... the console is permiently unable to go online, dont bin it. Its still good for one player and media streaming in house. Buy a new console and DONT let anyone other than yourself use it in future. A hard pill to swallow surely but this is the most realistic one can be. Lesson learned - to be 100% assured nothing like this will happen again in future make your console off limits to anyone else. /thread

I'm glad to be the one to prove you wrong on this Hightower and be your first case of wrongful banning. I'm also glad I didn't follow your advice and buy a new console and swallow that hard pill.....have you learned any lesson during this debacle?

chopperbyrne

NORTH1 wrote: »

Yes the way microsoft worded it does seem a little cynical by saying the box is at fault not the user. But even that was not true.

They made the statement, ignorance is not a defence, if they were not sure they should have investigated it thoroughly like they said they did.

There was a software fault. They would have carried out the same thorough investigation they do for all other bans, but something was giving false positives.

NORTH1 wrote: »

Chopperbyrne Do you still want to stand over this statement? or do you want to correct it?

I'll stand by it. You were saying that it was banned because you purchased the same piece of software on two consoles and I told you to stop clutching at straws, because that's what you were doing.

CramCycle

NORTH1 wrote: »

The above was not true so that would make it a lie and as for the thorough investigation well that was a lie too.

chopperbyrne wrote: »

You personally were not accused of anything. You were simply told that your console was found to have been used against the terms.

It is implied (I doubt they could legally accuse you without the risk of some pretty decent lawsuits, the wording is just to cover their asses in case they were wrong), they are accusing everyone who used his xbox, in North1s case, just his family, unless the consoles are becoming sentient?

At the time they didn't know about the software fault. I don't see where anyone lied to you.

So its an automatic process and not thoroughly investigated?

chopperbyrne wrote: »

There was a software fault. They would have carried out the same thorough investigation they do for all other bans, but something was giving false positives.

But they didn't carry out a through investigation, they banned the console before reviewing everything. It was clearly a flag that was sent up due to the fault but I get the impression that no one looked at it and double checked, sounds more like a serious issue (admittedly a glitch now) automatically flagged the console for banning and they went straight ahead and done it.

They may have done it in retrospect but surely they should have investigated that thoroughly before the banning.

NORTH1

chopperbyrne wrote: »

There was a software fault. They would have carried out the same thorough investigation they do for all other bans, but something was giving false positives.



I'll stand by it. You were saying that it was banned because you purchased the same piece of software on two consoles and I told you to stop clutching at straws, because that's what you were doing.

This is wrong they introduced something new that was not fully tested or tested correctly.

and you neatly skipped over the "It was banned for good reason" comment

Typical really and I'm getting use to it now.

yoyo

I wonder were these bans related to AP2.5 protection Microsoft used? Basicly it randomly checks a few sectors of a disc, if the responses don't equal that of a retail disc you get flagged. The problem is Microsoft use crappy DVD Drives in the 360s so the chance of those reporting incorrect data or failing to read sectors at checking time are likely.
Whatever it is it was a massive failure on Microsofts part, fair play to them for the generous payout though, the free points and live. When the PSN went down you got less and it was down months!

Nick

AceCard Jones

You could be in luck, you could be one of the people found to be wrongly banned.

http://www.trueachievements.com/n5621/microsoft-reversing-bans-on-certain-accounts.htm

I know this article is about accounts, but it's a start.

Just noticed this has all been posted before, my mistake.

cableguy.ie

All I can say is Well Done North1.

Mr E

In the latest Major Nelson Podcast, there is a segment about this.

http://majornelson.com/cast/2011/09/25/show-412-gears-of-war-3-launch/

Starts around the 45 minute mark.

Draupnir

I feel hugely sorry for the kids out there who've had this ban applied to their consoles, told their parents and taken a good hiding for it, grounding, the works because their parents were told by Microsoft that there was definitely something done to the console and it was now useless.

Some of those kids probably won't ever get a new console and might never even know there was an issue if they don't have access to the internet again at this point.

Some of the fanboy responses and defending of this cock up are ridiculous, of course there has been anguish and emotional distress as a result of this probably in hundreds or thousands of homes around the world with parents who just spent a few hundred quid on consoles accusing and punishing their innocent children based off Microsoft's guarantees.

NORTH1

Something doesn't make sense to me in Stepto's post he says consoles effected between late August to the 9th of September, so by the 9th they knew they had a problem. Yet e-mails I have on 22nd of September stating the console had broken the terms and conditions.

There seems to be a case were the left hand was not telling the right hand what it's doing.

I also feel we might have saved a few jobs in xpet if the software had of worked there would have been a few lay offs in their section.

Riesen_Meal

Now, who was trying to say to me that my mate in college was waffling in regard to this?

:rolleyes:

Humble pie is right, glad ya got it sorted North1....

Meesared

Fieldog wrote: »

Now, who was trying to say to me that my mate in college was waffling in regard to this?

:rolleyes:

Humble pie is right, glad ya got it sorted North1....

He was because they (support) didnt know about the issue till friday