Console Ban 3-9-11 (Mod Warning Post #755)

deco nate

Horsebox9000 wrote: »

That's pure conincidence if all the MS blogd have any merit. Watchdog taking credit when they don't deserve it.

ah,but watchdog also played a big part in the rrod shambles too,
least we forget,yes xboxers at the time knew what was goin on.
but it took the mainstream media to force their hand and
make them repair/fix said consoles.
it was worldwise news after their report,was
it not??in the main part because of watchdog...

Angry Mom

Thanks to the advent of social media it now allows people to connect on issues such as this unjust console ban wave and allows us to identify with others who are in the same boat thus putting more power in the public's hands. I am sure that this is not the first time Microsoft has made a mistake of this nature as nothing is "foolproof" but I think this is the first time, thanks to forums such as this and Facebook, that as a global collective people have come together and fought back. The end result of Microsoft finally admitting error is not due to one person or group but due to all those who insisted our voices be heard and refused to accept guilt despite the "overwhelming evidence" against us. As a parent I took the opportunity this experience afforded me to teach my kids the importance of standing up for yourself and for what is right, there is a lesson to be learnt in every experience and I know over the course of the last several weeks my kids have learnt their lesson, I just hope that Microsoft has also learnt theirs.

NORTH1

Keith186 wrote: »

Ha ha I read most of this at the start but couldn't keep up with it after tens of pages, didn't have the time.

Looks like there are some sore losers though! Did North1 get 1600 MS credits and 3 months as compensation?

The one thing better than justice being served is an unjustice being reversed

As of last night the point were added to my account, this is a nice gesture by Microsoft.

Was I the only one one that thought the statement by Microsoft on Friday evening came out of the blue?

I was on the phone to them on Thursday evening about transporting my console to there offices in England a, courier was arranged for Friday afternoon but didn't turn up then the announcement Friday evening.

I believe their hand was forced by watch dog contacting them about the program.

Apart from Helix here not one media group took any notice of this issue, and I feel Microsoft were very close to pulling of a cover up.

You can see how easy it is for Microsoft to claim there has been no reported wrongful bans in the past when they defend been wrong so vigorously right up to the point when it is about to make the television. Then it is only a handful of customers were inconvenienced.

Varik

Angry Mom wrote: »

As a parent I took te opportunity this experience afforded me to teach my kids the importance of standing up for yourself and for what is right, there is a lesson to be learnt in every experience and I know over the course of the last several weeks my kids have learnt their lesson, I just hope that Microsoft has also learnt theirs.

Most likely MS will just add "you can't sue us" to their tos, yep the US sure is great.

NORTH1

Varik wrote: »

Most likely MS will just add "you can't sue us" to their tos, yep the US sure is great.

Am I wrong in thinking this is another pointless comment with a little dig at the end of it?

We have cover the fact that terms and conditions do not out weight the consumer laws of the country you living in, so Microsoft can put what ever they like in the T and C, if they break consumer law they can be brought to account.

Jelle1880

But they don't.
TOS are different per country, exactly because there are different laws in place regarding sales of electronics, privacy, data protection,...
But none of them breach the local laws.

Varik

NORTH1 wrote: »

Varik wrote: »

Most likely MS will just add "you can't sue us" to their tos, yep the US sure is great.

Am I wrong in thinking this is another pointless comment with a little dig at the end of it?

We have cover the fact that terms and conditions do not out weight the consumer laws of the country you living in, so Microsoft can put what ever they like in the T and C, if they break consumer law they can be brought to account.

She is living in the US, where they can do it now.

Sony, EA, and AT&T are doing with the approval of supreme court.

NORTH1

Varik wrote: »

She is living in the US, where they can do it now.

Sony, EA, and AT&T are doing with the approval of supreme court.

Sorry I did misunderstand your comment. This would be a very interesting development and I am sure would get tested in the courts the first time the company breaks the law and then tells it's consumer to suck it up as the T and C says you can't challenge our actions.

Varik

NORTH1 wrote: »

Varik wrote: »

She is living in the US, where they can do it now.

Sony, EA, and AT&T are doing with the approval of supreme court.

Sorry I did misunderstand your comment. This would be a very interesting development and I am sure would get tested in the courts the first time the company breaks the law and then tells it's consumer to suck it up as the T and C says you can't challenge our actions.

It did come up in court, precedent was set from that and a ruling from supreme court is what allowing companies to do this.

Laws still protects peoples rights but they can sign their rights away. This only covers civil law and criminal laws are unaffected.

NORTH1

Is this in our district? How come this hasn't made te main stream media too? I am unaware of any changes to the T and C since I joined xbl over seven years ago, I didn't even know were to go to find the T and Cs up until 4 weeks ago.

Now we will be told to access xbl we have accept Microsoft are as infallible as the pope? When their actions have proved different. If this is the changes Microsoft are going to introduce xbl will become a sorry place!

Meesared

Ok your getting worked up over nothing, first of all it was Sony who brought this in, not MS and second it was in the States only.

Vicxas

And Watchdog wasnt the catalyst for this, although they claim they are, MS investigated after it emerged the piece of software they used between the 28th of August and 9th of September was wrongfully banning people. Through customer complaints. They admitted to it at least and are trying to make it right.

Helix

Vicxas wrote: »

And Watchdog wasnt the catalyst for this, although they claim they are, MS investigated after it emerged the piece of software they used between the 28th of August and 9th of September was wrongfully banning people. Through customer complaints. They admitted to it at least and are trying to make it right.

official line direct from MS on September 15th was that there had been no incorrect bannings

Helix

Jelle1880 wrote: »

But they don't.
TOS are different per country, exactly because there are different laws in place regarding sales of electronics, privacy, data protection,...
But none of them breach the local laws.

apart from the entirety of any EULA ever printed?

Vicxas

Helix wrote: »

official line direct from MS on September 15th was that there had been no incorrect bannings

Well they didnt discover the defunkt piece of software until the 18/19th. 3 days afterwards.

NORTH1

Vicxas wrote: »

Well they didnt discover the defunkt piece of software until the 18/19th. 3 days afterwards.

And I have posted the email received on the 19th stating the ban was still valid! So someone is not telling the truth!

Helix

Vicxas wrote: »

Well they didnt discover the defunkt piece of software until the 18/19th. 3 days afterwards.

they knew about it LONG before i got in touch with them and long before the 18/19th. they just thought they could flat deny it to the ground in the hope that it didnt snowball

why would they have stopped using this software on september 9th if they thought it was working perfectly well until the 18th/19th?

Trevor451

BBCs watchdog were discussing the same issue the OP had last night

Meesared

Trevor451 wrote: »

BBCs watchdog were discussing the same issue the OP had last night

We know lol, look at the last 2 pages

Vicxas

Either way, you got your console back. Silver lining.

NORTH1

Helix wrote: »

they knew about it LONG before i got in touch with them and long before the 18/19th. they just thought they could flat deny it to the ground in the hope that it didnt snowball

why would they have stopped using this software on september 9th if they thought it was working perfectly well until the 18th/19th?

Microsoft were so close to getting away with this!

and I will explain why I think this.

I was asked to stop posting here and in good faith they would look personally into my case. I was in the process of sending the console to them now they told me I was getting special treatment that they could ot give to every customer as they believed there must have been a mistake in my case.
Again they stated this can't be done for every customer and I must not post on here that they were doing this.

Now you can imagine what might have happened if they got there hands on the console, as they knew at this stage banning consoles wrongly.
One of two things.
1 My console had a fault that flagged it as modded and as a courtesy replace it for me if I don't report it.

2 They claim they find some sort of tampering of the console as they have reported previously and they keep the console as evidence and I then have no evidence. I then up the creek without a console.

Microsoft were trying to roll this over and hoping it did a death in the apathy of the majority of users.

Another point made early on in this discussion that the majority of users are probable not the consumer. The majority of consoles are bought by parents or family members as presents and these users would not be aware of their consumer rights.

Angry Mom

Sony's new TOU ask that one forfeits one's right to file a class action law suit but you can opt out of that clause and maintain your right to file a class action if you opt out of that clause in writing to Sony. Granted, most people won't take the time to do that but they would then have no one to blame but themselves for not doing so. Even if you don't opt out disputes can still be settled through arbitration. Also, a court can hold that the company in question cannot enforce the terms as written should a suit be filed. Bottom line is people need to take the time to read what they are agreeing to and if they don't agree then don't sign. We need food, water and shelter to survive, not video games and we have decide whether forfeiting our rights is worth what we get in return. It's a fine line, these companies need to protect themselves but they also need the customers to be profitable so it is not in their best interest to leave their customers with the short end of the stick. Back in the day when we had to take pen to paper and actually sign our name to contracts I think we were more careful and took the time to read what we were actually agreeing to, nowadays it's too easy to bypass the words by just
scrolling down and checking the box. I'm not going to lie, I'm guilty of doing it but not anymore, I've learnt my lesson. By scrolling down and checking that box I handed over my son's right to assert his innocence to Microsoft so he could play video games, not a great parenting moment. Did I know that's what I was agreeing to? No, I did not. One agrees to terms in good faith that you are going to be treated with fairness, never in a million years did I ever think that we would be accused of illegal activity and then denied the right to defend
ourselves. It baffles me why Microsoft would even want us to agree to something like that, again, it's a fine line between these multibillion dollar corporations protecting themselves and leaving their customers with the short end of stick but I can tell you in this case they most definitely crossed the line.

Meesared

Angry Mom wrote: »

Sony's new TOU ask that one forfeits one's right to file a class action law suit but you can opt out of that clause and maintain your right to file a class action if you opt out of that clause in writing to Sony. Granted, most people won't take the time to do that but they would then have no one to blame but themselves for not doing so. Even if you don't opt out disputes can still be settled through arbitration. Also, a court can hold that the company in question cannot enforce the terms as written should a suit be filed. Bottom line is people need to take the time to read what they are agreeing to and if they don't agree then don't sign. We need food, water and shelter to survive, not video games and we have decide whether forfeiting our rights is worth what we get in return. It's a fine line, these companies need to protect themselves but they also need the customers to be profitable so it is not in their best interest to leave their customers with the short end of the stick. Back in the day when we had to take pen to paper and actually sign our name to contracts I think we were more careful and took the time to read what we were actually agreeing to, nowadays it's too easy to bypass the words by just
scrolling down and checking the box. I'm not going to lie, I'm guilty of doing it but not anymore, I've learnt my lesson. By scrolling down and checking that box I handed over my son's right to assert his innocence to Microsoft so he could play video games, not a great parenting moment. Did I know that's what I was agreeing to? No, I did not. One agrees to terms in good faith that you are going to be treated with fairness, never in a million years did I ever think that we would be accused of illegal activity and then denied the right to defend
ourselves. It baffles me why Microsoft would even want us to agree to something like that, again, it's a fine line between these multibillion dollar corporations protecting themselves and leaving their customers with the short end of stick but I can tell you in this case they most definitely crossed the line.

Wall of text

Its a bit hard to read?

Vicxas

Sonys opt out of class actions only covers the US, the opt out option doesnt apply to customers in Europe as we dont have to agree to it.

Angry Mom

Dear Lord Meesard, if you don't like the "wall of text" then don't read it. This is a forum not Grammer 101. Complain much?

I have to agree with North1. At the risk of sounding paranoid, our console was unbanned and we were asked if we would send it in to help them assess what the problem was and they would send us a new console. I took pictures from every angle of our console before sending it to them because quite frankly after what we experienced over the last 3 weeks I just don't trust them, what's to stop them from tampering with my console and then turning around and blaming me for it? I know I sound paranoid but after nearly 3 weeks of MS trying to convince me that I'm guilty and not even considering for one moment that just maybe it's possible they made a mistake, can you blame me for being just a little bit paranoid? I think these multibillion dollar companies have their priorities all scewed up, profitability comes before all
else. So what if they made a mistake, just recognize it, admit it, correct it, learn from it and move on, what's the big deal? No one expects them to be perfect but what one does expect is
corporate responsibility and accountability. This is what I was expecting when I picked up the phone on Septwmber 4th to ask why our son's console was banned;

-Hello, my son's console was banned for violating the TOU, I was just wondering what term did he violate?

-Hello, although I don't have the exact details in front of me it says here that your son was playing pirated game discs on a modified console.

-That is impossible, everthing we own is legitimate, I would be more than happy to send it in
for verification.

-Oh, ok here is your case number please send your console in to be verified to the
enforcement team and we will refund you your shipping if our assessment is found to be
incorrect. Piracy costs MS and consumers millions of dollars and we are doing our best to try
and combat that and although the detection systems we have in place are highly accurate we
recognize that nothing is perfect so thank you for your understanding.

-No problem, I'll ship our console out to you later today.

Seriously, how hard is that? A 2 minute phone call and the customer is happy because they feel like they have been heard and MS has the ability to improve their detection systems by viewing cases where it went wrong if the console is found to be legit. That sure is a whole lot better than calling your customers,thieves, pirates and liars and then turning around 3 weeks
later and saying oops we made a mistake because by that time the damage is done and all
those affected have shared their negative experience with everyone they know and all their X Box Live customers who use the forums know because MS foolishly sent us for there for answers to questions that they knew they weren't going to answer. Hopefully, MS has
learnt that there is a better way to handle console bans in the future, not just for their customers benefit but for their own.

It's ok to make mistakes but what is not ok is trying to cover them up.

Meesared

Sorry! I was actually just asking. The wall of text does make things very hard to read. Not so much a grammar issue as a legibility one.

P.S. You missed your opening quote.

robinph

NORTH1 wrote: »

Another point made early on in this discussion that the majority of users are probable not the consumer. The majority of consoles are bought by parents or family members as presents and these users would not be aware of their consumer rights.

With the average age of gamers being often shown around the 28 years old mark, and probably higher than that now, I'd doubt that many of them are getting their consoles bought by their parents.

NORTH1

robinph wrote: »

With the average age of gamers being often shown around the 28 years old mark, and probably higher than that now, I'd doubt that many of them are getting their consoles bought by their parents.

Ok add Girlfriends to my list

Angry Mom

Meesared wrote: »

Sorry! I was actually just asking. The wall of text does make things very hard to read. Not so much a grammar issue as a legibility one.

P.S. You missed your opening quote.

Ok I agree, but for me a forum is just a place to vent, not really thinking or caring about the formatting, though I do like to hear other people's perspective too, so yeah ok, formatting is important. No more walls of text!

Meesared

Angry Mom wrote: »

Ok I agree, but for me a forum is just a place to vent, not really thinking or caring about the formatting, though I do like to hear other people's perspective too, so yeah ok, formatting is important. No more walls of text!

Thanks!