Console Ban 3-9-11 (Mod Warning Post #755)

Helix

IPAM wrote: »

I agree,

Anything linked to the customer I.e the console is covered under the DPA. Surely the console, GT, Name, CC details are all linked somehow

they would be linked in so much as theres a record saying that "console x has been used by gt id x" im sure

and he would be entitled to that record

he wouldnt be entitled to the ban record though, because that would be a seperate entity. no more than im entitled to contact apple and demand the production information for my ipad

adrian522

I'd assume all this information is stored in a user profile or similar.

For example if I buy a second hand console that had already been registered and it develops a fault I am not covered under warranty because the console is linked to its original owner.

Helix

north1, are you absolutely positive its a console ban and not a gamertag ban?

KerranJast

TheMooseInNam wrote: »

So, in order to resolve this entire thread, we only need one thing "What has MS found out in order to justify the console ban?" Once we've established that, then we can pursue the notion of whether it's justified or unjustified, a mistake human error or another good decision by the Policy Enforcement Team.

Great summary unfortunately I doubt MS are going to enlighten the OP or us about their reason(s) for the console ban.

It seems to be a fundamental aspect of their anti-modder policy to withhold such info.

Helix

adrian522 wrote: »

I'd assume all this information is stored in a user profile or similar.

For example if I buy a second hand console that had already been registered and it develops a fault I am not covered under warranty because the console is linked to its original owner.

hardware information such as whether a console is banned or not would not necessarily be stored with the user information. in all likelihood its a seperate record

for example, my gamertag has been used on AT LEAST 20 xbox 360. while im sure ms could give me the information regarding which consoles my GT ID has used, i would not be entitled to any further information about the console hardware itself

as i said, im sure his user profile notes the consoles that he has played on, but whether or not that also contains information on whether the console is banned is up for debate. i would not think that it would. rather it would list the serial number of the console hardware with no further information

then looking up another database, or another record table, one could check all the information on the console itself in terms of hardware, which probably has a big red flashing "PWNT!" on it

KERSPLAT!

Helix wrote: »

north1, are you absolutely positive its a console ban and not a gamertag ban?

OP has stated a few times that MS support told him/advised him he could buy a new console an use his original GT on it

.E_C_K_S.

Can anyone tell me if MS are 100% right to withold information as to why the console is banned?

I do believe MS need only speculation of fraud to warrant a console ban and that's what has happened here.

CramCycle

TheMooseInNam wrote: »

7. It has come to light that the OP had "FREE XBOX LIVE" clearly stated in his gamertag's motto. However, assumptions are being made that this is definitely the reason why the console was banned, which is not true. At the moment, this is the best possible reason proposed from the information we have received.

Trying to keep it on topic but this seems the most unlikely reason to get a console ban unless a GT ban was imposed at the same time.

Can I ask is your sons GT still active (or have you checked)?

If it was something he was doing on your console, then they may have banned your console and his GT possibly?

Personally I think it is a pity that they are being unresponsive but on the other hand it has only been a little over a week and undoubtedly they may just have you in a queue? I hope they get back to you with a reason as I think it is poor form if they don't.

Helix

IPAM wrote: »

OP has stated a few times that MS support told him/advised him he could buy a new console an use his original GT on it

yeah but we dont know if that was a general bit of advice based on "my console is banned what do i do" on his part, or specific advice based on the data they have at hand

unless he furnished them with the console serial number on the phone, i believe it to be the former

Fireborn

adrian522 wrote: »

I haven't been banned, I just think this is a crazy policy for them to have.

Well firstly it wasn't me who had that in his motto and secondly I don't think a ban is acceptable because support staff misread a tagline. That's just silly.

It has not been misread. It can clearly be seen he's soliciting something againt the terms of use. Regardless of any other meanings it may have.

And thats the point - they will do anything they have to to protect their business and the service regardless of what you think is fair and right.

You can also be 100% certain that this will be completely within the letter of consumer, national, international, employer, employee, inter planetary, inter galatic or any other laws, acts, policies, strategies, hastily scribbled notes on a napkin, that you care to name/use/invoke/conjour.

Why? because Microsoft, have not become the 'monster' some people make them out to be by being stupid.

Helix

north, you need to do a few things here for us, and let us know when theyre done

1) try to log into xbox live on your console with your son's gamer tag
2) try to create a new xbox live gamertag
3) take the faceplate off to see if the seal is intact
4) try your gamertag on your son's console

Helix

Fireborn wrote: »

It has not been misread. It can clearly be seen he's soliciting something againt the terms of use. Regardless of any other meanings it may have.

And thats the point - they will do anything they have to to protect their business and the service regardless of what you think is fair and right.

You can also be 100% certain that this will be completely within the letter of consumer, national, international, employer, employee, inter planetary, inter galatic or any other laws, acts, policies, strategies, hastily scribbled notes on a napkin, that you care to name/use/invoke/conjour.

Why? because Microsoft, have not become the 'monster' some people make them out to be by being stupid.

thats all well and good, but a GT violation does not equal a console ban. we need to find out if the console is ACTUALLY banned or not. i have a feeling it mightnt actually be, particularly if he was banned for the GT logo

KerranJast

WALSHY16291 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if MS are 100% right to withold information as to why the console is banned?

"Right" is subjective. They would see it as necessary not to release that info for fear of giving modders tips on how their detection techniques work.

Personally I think they should give a general reason for the ban and I suspect most other XBL users would feel the same.

As others have said though under the ToS and CoC that we all agree to on XBL signup (acronym overload ) they can do this.

Whether its actually legal under consumer law is another story altogether. I would suspect MS have their bases covered there given the huge liability it would open them up to.

NORTH1

pH wrote: »

Have you removed the faceplate and made 100% sure that the warranty seal is in place?

Yes I have, I could post up a picture of it, as that is a bit of a hobby of mine?

Helix

NORTH1 wrote: »

Yes I have, I could post up a picture of it, as that is a bit of a hobby of mine?

could you try the other 3 things i posted

i think we'll be able to shed a bit more light on that when we have the results of each of those 3 tests

NORTH1

TheMooseInNam wrote: »

I'm not locking this thread, I believe it has every right to be on this forum and made available for members to post on.

The outcome of this thread is of genuine interest to any who has a console connected to the XBL service.

Not to mention the fact that it has some great entertainment value... a bit like watching a car crash in slow motion

Let's try and keep this thread on track though. Let's recap:

1. The OP informed us that his console received a ban, not his gamertag. (I would like this confirmed, again)

2. The OP owns two consoles and shares two XBL full memberships between the consoles, on the same home network.

3. All DLC has been paid for and no illegal downloads took place.

4. His son hasn't been involved in anything that may result in the console getting banned, the jury is out on this one and either his son is a first class liar with brass balls or perfectly innocent. However, without a polygraph or MS's clarification, this can't be proved either way. So let's move on.

5. The OP has repeatedly posted on the Xbox forum as to why he has received a console ban but MS has yet to inform him of the exact reason(s) yet.

6. The recent ban wave for Marketplace Theft only focused on gamertag bans, so this doesn't explain the console ban.

7. It has come to light that the OP had "FREE XBOX LIVE" clearly stated in his gamertag's motto. However, assumptions are being made that this is definitely the reason why the console was banned, which is not true. At the moment, this is the best possible reason proposed from the information we have received.

8. It's become obvious that two distinct sides are emerging, those opposed to MS and those in favour of MS. However, this shouldn't be the case, remember the following:

A. MS are providing an excellent service through XBL and the general consenus is that bans are justified and keep the system fair by removing piracy, modding, cheating and hacking.

B. This seems to be an isolated incident. The OP claims his innocence and his family members innocence, however, MS's Policy Enforcement Team don't issue bans without a documented paper trail.

C. The issue here is not whether MS are good or bad, provide a good service or not, should be free or a paid service, the issue here is whether or not MS will inform the OP of the reason to the console ban. All other issues are purely based on speculation and tarnished with personal opinions.

So, in order to resolve this entire thread, we only need one thing "What has MS found out in order to justify the console ban?" Once we've established that, then we can pursue the notion of whether it's justified or unjustified, a mistake human error or another good decision by the Policy Enforcement Team.

I'm sorry if this post is a little long but I think it's time everyone started focusing on the real question here.

All facts are correct except for the part if the son is guilty there will be a size 10 firmly planted!!

Fireborn

Helix wrote: »

thats all well and good, but a GT violation does not equal a console ban. we need to find out if the console is ACTUALLY banned or not. i have a feeling it mightnt actually be, particularly if he was banned for the GT logo

This is actually quite true, but I'm posting on what information i've been given.

This is the mistake i've made as I've been posting under the assumption that the OP has made all due effort to get as much information on it he can before publicly decrying his harsh and unfair treatment.

Helix

is it possible that the son's console was banned and he pulled a switcheroo?

is there any way of knowing if that was the case without knowing your original serial number? if you were to go into system settings > memory > hard drive > games would you be able to tell for sure if it was your console or his, for example? like would you have files from games that he wouldnt have played on your console that he wouldnt have on his etc?

pH

NORTH1 wrote: »

Yes I have, I could post up a picture of it, as that is a bit of a hobby of mine?

If the seal's in place it's extremely unlikely the console is modded - it is kindof possible for people to mod them and get the seal back or replace it but it's very rare.

So if the console is unmodded then the only other real reason for a console ban is if the console has been used for fraud.

Have you ever asked another live user for their account details?
Have you ever (even in jest) said you were an xbox employee to other live users?

mossie

WALSHY16291 wrote: »

In this case I genuinely believe the OP was not trying to resell or redistribute a Xbox Live service for free but you can't argue that "Free Xbox LIVE" in your motto can be seen to be offer nothing other than "free" LIVE in an attempt to scam others.

I believe him too, but I think that "Free Xbox Live" can be seen as much more than an offer of free live - it can be as what it actually was - a suggestion that live should be free. As such it is not clear cut and this ambiguity, coupled with the fact that he has it in his profile for a long time surely means it's unlikely that it was the cause of the ban. And if it was that is a crazy policy.

NORTH1 wrote: »

Most people must have though the were giving out free Nelson Mandela's when Jerry Dammers wrote the song "Free Nelson Mandela".

Fireborn wrote: »

It has not been misread. It can clearly be seen he's soliciting something againt the terms of use. Regardless of any other meanings it may have.

No It can't. It can be implied that this may be case, but this cannot be "clearly seen". The Nelson Mandela quote above is just as clear. Banning someone for this would be like banning someone or drink driving because he had a Carlsberg sticker in the window of his car.

Fireborn wrote: »

You can also be 100% certain that this will be completely within the letter of consumer, national, international, employer, employee, inter planetary, inter galatic or any other laws, acts, policies, strategies, hastily scribbled notes on a napkin, that you care to name/use/invoke/conjour.

I don't think that a ban for suspicion would be within the letter of any law. AFAIK guilt must be proven not inferred.

adrian522

Fireborn wrote: »

It has not been misread. It can clearly be seen he's soliciting something againt the terms of use. Regardless of any other meanings it may have.

And thats the point - they will do anything they have to to protect their business and the service regardless of what you think is fair and right.

You can also be 100% certain that this will be completely within the letter of consumer, national, international, employer, employee, inter planetary, inter galatic or any other laws, acts, policies, strategies, hastily scribbled notes on a napkin, that you care to name/use/invoke/conjour.

Why? because Microsoft, have not become the 'monster' some people make them out to be by being stupid.

Nothing of the sort can be clearly seen. Maybe misread should be replaced by misunderstood but if the motto was the reason for the ban than a mistake has been made at MS as no "Free xbox live" codes are available from the OP.

A motto provides proof of absolutely nothing. They would, IMO, need some further evidence of wrongdoing rather than just a motto they deem to be inappropriate before issuing a ban so I don't think the motto is the reason for the ban. Furthermore what is the point of a console ban if the user can log in to a different console with the same offending motto attached to his GT?

Fireborn

mossie wrote: »

I believe him too, but I think that "Free Xbox Live" can be seen as much more than an offer of free live - it can be as what it actually was - a suggestion that live should be free. As such it is not clear cut and this ambiguity, coupled with the fact that he has it in his profile for a long time surely means it's unlikely that it was the cause of the ban. And if it was that is a crazy policy.






No It can't. It can be implied that this may be case, but this cannot be "clearly seen". The Nelson Mandela quote above is just as clear. Banning someone for this would be like banning someone or drink driving because he had a Carlsberg sticker in the window of his car.




I don't think that a ban for suspicion would be within the letter of any law. AFAIK guilt must be proven not inferred.

You're applying legalities that do not apply to a service owned by, ran by, and governed by Microsoft.

NORTH1

Helix wrote: »

north, you need to do a few things here for us, and let us know when theyre done

1) try to log into xbox live on your console with your son's gamer tag
2) try to create a new xbox live gamertag
3) take the faceplate off to see if the seal is intact
4) try your gamertag on your son's console

1) My console will not connect to xbox live
2) As point one
3) done all in good order
4) My account is now been recovered to the second console.

Text on screen is as follows
"This console has been banned for violation of the terms of use. To protect the xbox live service and its members, microsoft does not provide details about console bans

There is no recourse for terms of use violations"

Fireborn

adrian522 wrote: »

Nothing of the sort can be clearly seen. Maybe misread should be replaced by misunderstood but if the motto was the reason for the ban than a mistake has been made at MS as no "Free xbox live" codes are available from the OP.

A motto provides proof of absolutely nothing. They would, IMO, need some further evidence of wrongdoing rather than just a motto they deem to be inappropriate before issuing a ban so I don't think the motto is the reason for the ban. Furthermore what is the point of a console ban if the user can log in to a different console with the same offending motto attached to his GT?

I completely agree, if you read another post I put up, I clearly state that I doubt that this is the reason. As yes it is ambiguous and it would be unlikely to result in a console ban.

My point was a counter - point to adrian552 saying that its ridiculous to ban for a motto I was explaining how it can be easily read to be against ToU especially if the owner is already under investigation for other infractions.

.E_C_K_S.

I think you should remove "FREE XBOX LIVE" from the account for the moment too!

mossie

Fireborn wrote: »

You're applying legalities that do not apply to a service owned by, ran by, and governed by Microsoft.

Microsofts T&Cs cannot supercede the laws of a country.

allanb49

I think Microsoft have made a mistake,
The real question is what should they do in this matter,

A solicitors letter to Microsoft in Sandyford might help or even going up and asking to talk to someone in there in person.

It's a bit ott with the letter, Take the xbox up to sandyford on monday,

Explain that you have been onto the official forum but it's not been moderated at the moment,

You have sent a letter to Larry Hyrb (think thats how it's spelt) and got an automated reply.

Show that you have checked the seal and the console has not been tampered with,

Also show the email you sent off,

Have a screen shot taken of the error message you are getting when you log in,

Thats what i would do.

KERSPLAT!

WALSHY16291 wrote: »

I think you should remove "FREE XBOX LIVE" from the account for the moment too!

I wouldn't change anything, leave everything as is, iv seen that motto plenty of times including friends and none to my knowledgle have been banned

NORTH1

pH wrote: »

If the seal's in place it's extremely unlikely the console is modded - it is kindof possible for people to mod them and get the seal back or replace it but it's very rare.

So if the console is unmodded then the only other real reason for a console ban is if the console has been used for fraud.

Have you ever asked another live user for their account details?
Have you ever (even in jest) said you were an xbox employee to other live users?

When on-line I very rarely communicate with any one.

Listen heres the thing I am 42 years of age(Don't Laugh I get that enough from my wife) and most of the kids out there their conversation don't interest me. I would have half the players muted during a session and with work and kids football training these sessions are getting fewer and fewer......so this week has not been my best......

Helix

pH wrote: »

Have you ever asked another live user for their account details?
Have you ever (even in jest) said you were an xbox employee to other live users?

both gamertag bans, no?

NORTH1

WALSHY16291 wrote: »

I think you should remove "FREE XBOX LIVE" from the account for the moment too!

I have removed this now but would like to point out that it is in no way an admission of any wrong doing.

Helix

NORTH1 wrote: »

1) My console will not connect to xbox live
2) As point one
3) done all in good order
4) My account is now been recovered to the second console.

Text on screen is as follows
"This console has been banned for violation of the terms of use. To protect the xbox live service and its members, microsoft does not provide details about console bans

There is no recourse for terms of use violations"

good man

its not anything to do with the free xbox live thing then so

and it cant be for sharing content with your sons xbox, or his would be banned too

NORTH1

IPAM wrote: »

I wouldn't change anything, leave everything as is, iv seen that motto plenty of times including friends and none to my knowledgle have been banned

Too late done and while doing it I felt like I was doing something wrong!!

.E_C_K_S.

NORTH1 wrote: »

I have removed this now but would like to point out that it is in no way an admission of any wrong doing.

I know that. Since were still figuring out how the first console got banned I'm sure you wouldn't want the second to banned either so it's just a precaution!

hightower1

Has anyone in the house used online software / usb memory sticks to downlod and use modded game saves?

There is a program where by you can downloaded modded xbox save files , save to USB then transfer them to the hard drive where the xbox reads them as normal saves?

Dont want to mention the programs name here as per the charter but thats not important anyway. It would explain the console - not GT ban and wouldnt involve any physical tampering in any way.

Fireborn

mossie wrote: »

Microsofts T&Cs cannot supercede the laws of a country.

My point is the laws of a country do not apply here. A country or any other legal entity is not involved, this is a service provider denying service to a now ex-customer for reasons they are allowed to withhold without exemption as detailed in terms and conditions the customer agreed to when he/she started the service.

NORTH1

WALSHY16291 wrote: »

I know that. Since were still figuring out how the first console got banned I'm sure you wouldn't want the second to banned either so it's just a precaution!

Ooh don't say that!!!

Helix

Fireborn wrote: »

My point is the laws of a country do not apply here. A country or any other legal entity is not involved, this is a service provider denying service to a now ex-customer for reasons they are allowed to withhold without exemption as detailed in terms and conditions the customer agreed to when he/she started the service.

hes not an ex customer, theyre still charging him for the service

Fireborn

Then I would imagine he might want to change that fact before he's back in small claims claiming microsoft stole off him.

NORTH1

hightower1 wrote: »

Has anyone in the house used online software / usb memory sticks to downlod and use modded game saves?

There is a program where by you can downloaded modded xbox save files , save to USB then transfer them to the hard drive where the xbox reads them as normal saves?

Dont want to mention the programs name here as per the charter but thats not important anyway. It would explain the console - not GT ban and wouldnt involve any physical tampering in any way.

That can be put on the list too

There as not been any software moding/gamesaves to either console.

NORTH1

Fireborn wrote: »

Then I would imagine he might want to change that fact before he's back in small claims claiming microsoft stole off him.

I don't understand what your trying to say here?

Can you clarify?

Helix

hes saying cancel your xbla subscription before you make a thread about how microsoft are stealing money from you every month

.E_C_K_S.

This was posted on the IRL clan website just a while ago:

Seems to have happened to others and on the forums people have said they think it may be related to the new zombie maps.

The reason some of us here said your ban was strongly related to the motto you put up is because it seems like the only thing that stands out to warrant a ban from your profile by looking at it.However, this is a new development and there is a possibility you could have been banned unfairly.

youcancallmeal

I can't believe how retarded Microsoft are, why they don't just tell people exactly why their consoles are banned and save themselves so much time and effort having to explain themselves?? Not to mention the amount of negative publicity this must have garnered them. This thread alone has over 7000 views!

KERSPLAT!

youcancallmeal wrote: »

I can't believe how retarded Microsoft are, why they don't just tell people exactly why their consoles are banned and save themselves so much time and effort having to explain themselves?? Not to mention the amount of negative publicity this must have garnered them. This thread alone has over 7000 views!

I can see where MS are coming from, this way they don't give anything away to the modders who would use the info infuture to avoid detection

edit: they should however give a simple/basic reason without going into detail

NORTH1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCrmmTg38FU&feature=player_embedded#!

It is looking more likely that MS has made a big mistake.....I get the feeling something big could be coming down the line........Get your popcorn and watch this space....

XG4M3M45T3RX

Ok people, were are going around in circles here and there has been no more progress in getting any answers. This has turned into a mal-informed legal battle that is failing to provide any FACTUAL information regarding where the consumer stands in relation to having his Console banned from the XBox Live service, and in fact the grounds for this ban.

XBox will not provide any information regarding this ban to prevent the information falling into the hands of Hackers / Modders and Cheaters.

I really do not see the need for this Thread to continue, despite the incredibly humerous aspect to it.

Time to face the facts, the console was banned, you will not get any reason for it, take it as a lesson i suppose.

XG4M3M45T3RX

IPAM wrote: »

I can see where MS are coming from, this way they don't give anything away to the modders who would use the info infuture to avoid detection

edit: they should however give a simple/basic reason without going into detail

Agreed!!

Jackobyte

OP: If the console was bought recently enough, you could chance your arm with the retailer, since Irish consumer law holds the retailer responsible.

Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980 states all goods must be fit for their purpose. This device was bought for online gaming and thus, is no longer fit for purpose. If it is still under a reasonable lifetime period, it is still covered by Consumer Law. (Someone else may be able to find reasonable lifetime for an Xbox, I think I heard 4 years bandied around in regards to Playstations when they were suffering YLOD)

National Consumer Agency wrote:

Therefore you may, if the reasonable lifetime of a given product exceeds the time period of any warranty, pursue the seller in respect of your statutory rights - 'The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980'.

adrian522

XG4M3M45T3RX wrote: »

Ok people, were are going around in circles here and there has been no more progress in getting any answers. This has turned into a mal-informed legal battle that is failing to provide any FACTUAL information regarding where the consumer stands in relation to having his Console banned from the XBox Live service, and in fact the grounds for this ban.

XBox will not provide any information regarding this ban to prevent the information falling into the hands of Hackers / Modders and Cheaters.

I really do not see the need for this Thread to continue, despite the incredibly humerous aspect to it.

Time to face the facts, the console was banned, you will not get any reason for it, take it as a lesson i suppose.

And would that lesson be? Don't get banned?