Killiney Towers Roundabout is being made narrower!

galwayjohn89

I've said it before and I will say it again this roundabout is a joke. Parents have lived up the road for 30 years and the roundabout worked perfectly fine. There was one serious incident. Now since they have started flaffing about (which has been going on for around 5 years but gotten much worse recently) I have seen 2 extremely close calls, countless near misses and one cyclist knocked over. I frequently see cyclist cycle on the main roadway and I do not blame them in the slightest. The signage is a joke, its a mental overload and some of the signs block your view of the roundabout. When turning off the roundabout you need to steer in then out of the roundabout putting cyclist in your blind spot. Everything about the redesign has been a complete and utter failure. Even when they put in the signs 'yield to cyclists' at year exit they had to come back in a week to change the height of the signs.

Exclamation Marc

I was driving past it earlier today and that stupid cycle lane has vanished in some parts, looks like it's being removed.

OssianSmyth

They are changing the roundabout to a version with grass verges separating circulating bikes from cars, bikes sharing the footpaths with pedestrians and bikes crossing at zebra crossings at each exit.

The plan is here: http://www.dlrcoco.ie/media/media,9170,en.pdf

This is an improvement on the plan from a month earlier which I complained about to the NTA:
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/media/media,9099,en.pdf

The angles are better for cyclist crossing junctions and there is some buffer protecting circulating cyclists.

There are still some problems:
There is no separate provision for pedestrians so contention and collisions between cyclists and those on foot are likely.
Space is constrained for cyclists and pedestrians because the central island is too large.

experienced cyclists will still use the road

Supercell

I'm 42 years old and lived near there all my life (originally from Dalkey) and all I can say is what the hell was wrong with it before? this latest round of madness and expense just is beyond incomprehensive to me I cycled to the DSP in all its various locations back in the day and then on to Newpark in Blackrock when I was older and never any problems navigating this roundabout rain hail sleet or snow literally (actually the big roundabout at the back of Monkstown farm was a death trap in icy weather but thats been left untouched over the years, but i digress)
Is this the same people that are busily trying to slow traffic to walking pace around Ballybrack shoppping centre now with lights and bumps appearing there all over the place and at great expense no doubt?

/end rant.

patrickbrophy18

Supercell wrote: »

I'm 42 years old and lived near there all my life (originally from Dalkey) and all I can say is what the hell was wrong with it before?

I've been asking myself this question a lot ever since the first major job was carried out between December 2011 and January/February 2012. Essentially, Killiney Towers Roundabout was handpicked as a testing ground for regressive engineering works. The desired effect (or rather undesired at that) is that this new standard of roundabout will more than likely be an inconvenience to all forms of motorised traffic (cars, buses and trucks). For buses and trucks, this means being subjected to the same tailbacks which cars are subjected to. Also, the tightening of junctions and reduction of lanes reduces the clearance between large vehicles and carriageway extremities.

The motivation behind these regressive projects is making it "safer:rolleyes:" for use by pedestrians, cyclists and other vulnerable road users. As someone who frequently passed this roundabout prior to December 2011 while doing brisk walks, I didn't feel vulnerable at all. For a start, the triangular medians in the original design provided far more room for pedestrians as a roadway midpoint than the pathetic capsule shaped medians. If anything, this reduction in median space for pedestrians has made it more dangerous and less suitable. I feel far more vulnerable on these capsule shaped medians than I did on the larger triangular ones because I am more exposed. Moreover, the clearance between myself and motorised traffic has been reduced.

Supercell wrote: »

actually the big roundabout at the back of Monkstown farm was a death trap in icy weather but thats been left untouched over the years

Are you talking about the Stradbrook Roundabout or the one at Monkstown Avenue?

Supercell wrote: »

Is this the same people that are busily trying to slow traffic to walking pace around Ballybrack shoppping centre now with lights and bumps appearing there all over the place and at great expense no doubt?

Sadly, yes. Many of the infrastructural works being carried out in the burrough are guided by an urban road design manual which appears to want motorised traffic to go at a snails pace. This covers many road design aspects from the undoing of segregation between road users through shortening/removal of filter lanes to the tightening of roadways and junctions. While these aspects would be fine for cul de sacs and enclosed road systems, in my opinion, they are inappropriate for roads which directly link villages, towns centers and hubs.

If the recommendations of the manual are anything to go by, QBCs (Quality Bus Corridors) might as well be designated simply as BCs (Bus Corridors) given that the "Quality" part will no longer be accurately descriptive. The whole point of a QBC is to prioritize bus travel so that it behaves more like a rapid transit system. As such, traffic calming defeats the whole purpose of their primary goal.

Larbre34

Yes a timely publication of the new Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets

Judge for yourselves folks.....

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,32668,en.pdf

Bits_n_Bobs

Supercell wrote: »

I'm 42 years old and lived near there all my life (originally from Dalkey) and all I can say is what the hell was wrong with it before? this latest round of madness and expense just is beyond incomprehensive to me I cycled to the DSP in all its various locations back in the day and then on to Newpark in Blackrock when I was older and never any problems navigating this roundabout rain hail sleet or snow literally (actually the big roundabout at the back of Monkstown farm was a death trap in icy weather but thats been left untouched over the years, but i digress)
Is this the same people that are busily trying to slow traffic to walking pace around Ballybrack shoppping centre now with lights and bumps appearing there all over the place and at great expense no doubt?

/end rant.

I could not agree more. Idiots doing idiotic things.

Especially in regards to the neglect of actual problems such as the large roundabout which is an utter death-trap and the only place I get off my bike and walk around. I think motorists are confused about it being an actual roundabout and don't treat it as one.

They dug up Wyattvill Road, stuck a U-turn in for only buses and taxis (seriously??) while narrowing a junction that was functioning fine as a junction - the sole purpose of which seemed to be to make it too tight for two cars to make the turn simultaneously. At the same time they shortened the left turn to the shopping center ensuring additional conjestion...idiots.

As for the ramps in the new link road between Stillorgan and Blackrock - do they have to be that monstrous??? Anything beyond 10kph and you risk doing damage to your suspension, plus they made them out of that red stuff that seems washes away in the rain. Idiots.

Irish and Proud

The political consensus regarding excessive traffic calming could be in for a big shock in the 2014 local elections, just as the consensus favouring extreme car priority faced in 1991 (local elections) when the political landscape in Dublin City Council completely shifted in favour of alternative means of transport - in short, it works both ways - we are now at the other extreme of what could now be regarded as old fashioned entrenched anti-car thinking. This anti-car thinking is really like the standpoint of the Church - out of touch with reality - the transport authorities, architects and town planners in this country are fast becoming irrelevant as far as I'm concerned - they seriously need to get real.

We the people, need to show the authorities the might of the ballot box in the 2014 local elections - for me, the anti-car nonsense will be a massive issue!!!

monument

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The political consensus regarding excessive traffic calming could be in for a big shock in the 2014 local elections, just as the consensus favouring extreme car priority faced in 1991 (local elections) when the political landscape in Dublin City Council completely shifted in favour of alternative means of transport - in short, it works both ways - we are now at the other extreme of what could now be regarded as old fashioned entrenched anti-car thinking. This anti-car thinking is really like the standpoint of the Church - out of touch with reality - the transport authorities, architects and town planners in this country are fast becoming irrelevant as far as I'm concerned - they seriously need to get real.

We the people, need to show the authorities the might of the ballot box in the 2014 local elections - for me, the anti-car nonsense will be a massive issue!!!

I don't think most people care even half as much as you do.

Bits_n_Bobs

monument wrote: »

I don't think most people care even half as much as you do.

Still - I admire the passion

I dunno if it's even coherent enough to be called 'anti-car'. "Anti-getting-about" strikes me as a much better phrase for the guiding no-policy.

Irish and Proud

monument wrote: »

I don't think most people care even half as much as you do.

They will when such measures start to affect them at local level and cause delays. Also, with property tax etc. people will start to get a lot more fussy about how their money is being spent (or wasted). Excessive traffic calming will probably be seen in the same light as the bronze statues etc.

Irish and Proud

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Still - I admire the passion

I dunno if it's even coherent enough to be called 'anti-car'. "Anti-getting-about" strikes me as a much better phrase for the guiding no-policy.

I actually agree - this traffic calming affects me as a pedestrian most of all. The lack of slips and islands at major junctions wrecks havoc on my progress on foot - i like island hopping. I walk quite a bit and hate those NTA style junctions. Also, some forms of road narrowing can actually help the car dominate as is the case with the junction just outside Dun Laoghaire County Hall - I sometimes visit the area. The former wider junction was not exactly perfect, but actually allowed pedestrians to take over parts of the road and cars had to slow down - now cars dominate and pedestrians have taken to more aggressive jaywalking as a result - the powers that be seriously don't walk. What about people with mobility issues - surely slips and islands would make things doable for them? - oh I forgot, the powers that be in our authorities seem quite right wing anyway, so that's a silly question I suppose...

Anyone

Supercell wrote: »

I'm 42 years old and lived near there all my life (originally from Dalkey) and all I can say is what the hell was wrong with it before? this latest round of madness and expense just is beyond incomprehensive to me I cycled to the DSP in all its various locations back in the day and then on to Newpark in Blackrock when I was older and never any problems navigating this roundabout rain hail sleet or snow literally (actually the big roundabout at the back of Monkstown farm was a death trap in icy weather but thats been left untouched over the years, but i digress)
Is this the same people that are busily trying to slow traffic to walking pace around Ballybrack shoppping centre now with lights and bumps appearing there all over the place and at great expense no doubt?

/end rant.

The only thing that was wrong with the roundabout the way it was, was tha it flooded badly when there was heavy rain. They seem to have stopped this though with the raised lip on the inner part of the roundabout.

Other than that, its a complete and utter waste of resources that could have been used elsewhere. I've heard rumours how much it originally cost(250-300k) no idea what the current work is costing, but I bet you the legal cases against Dun Laoghaire Co Co will cost a hell of a lot more.

The person responsible for this decision should resign immediately. I hear(again a rumour) he was "moved" from Dublin Co Co.

Larbre34

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The political consensus regarding excessive traffic calming could be in for a big shock in the 2014 local elections, just as the consensus favouring extreme car priority faced in 1991 (local elections) when the political landscape in Dublin City Council completely shifted in favour of alternative means of transport - in short, it works both ways - we are now at the other extreme of what could now be regarded as old fashioned entrenched anti-car thinking. This anti-car thinking is really like the standpoint of the Church - out of touch with reality - the transport authorities, architects and town planners in this country are fast becoming irrelevant as far as I'm concerned - they seriously need to get real.

We the people, need to show the authorities the might of the ballot box in the 2014 local elections - for me, the anti-car nonsense will be a massive issue!!!

Eh, no.

Anti-car policies come down from central government as a result of EU and world environmental targets, among other things. You could elect the Meerkat.com animals to the County Council and you would still be looking at the continuation and expansion of anti-private car policies until their eventual obsolescence. Besides which, it will cost €200 in todays money to fill a private car in 2020, so the market will decide.

Irish and Proud

Larbre34 wrote: »

Eh, no.

Anti-car policies come down from central government as a result of EU and world environmental targets, among other things. You could elect the Meerkat.com animals to the County Council and you would still be looking at the continuation and expansion of anti-private car policies until their eventual obsolescence. Besides which, it will cost €200 in todays money to fill a private car in 2020, so the market will decide.

If the environmetal situation is that urgent, then were can't afford the industrial practices of built-in obsolescence and fashion/lifestyle trends which generate unnecessary consumption of natural resources. Take all the unnecessary paperwork in today's society as well as the current property system that encourages houses of a scale that's simply unnecessary. Focusing on cars themselves, why not tax the gas guzzlers out of existance and force car manufacturers to produce cars that last longer thereby reducing their overall carbon footprint.

I know the above is not what the anti-car brigade would like to hear, but their argument simply doesn't add up...

enas

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I know the above is not what the anti-car brigade would like to hear

In my opinion, referring all the time to an imaginary "anti-car brigade" tends to discredit any argument you might be making. And of course, I find it funny that you would qualify as anti-car what are really very soft measures. You would need to travel a bit around Europe, including in places where politicians consider themselves very pro-car, to get a reality check and stop perceiving those measures as anti-car.

Now, that's just my opinion, not trying to antagonise anyone.

trishasaffron

Crikey - I live nearby and this project seems to have no end. Today they're working way down Albert and Barnhill roads - mad Ted!

Bits_n_Bobs

The roundabout is the borg and it will assimilate Dalkey....

Irish and Proud

enas wrote: »

In my opinion, referring all the time to an imaginary "anti-car brigade" tends to discredit any argument you might be making. And of course, I find it funny that you would qualify as anti-car what are really very soft measures. You would need to travel a bit around Europe, including in places where politicians consider themselves very pro-car, to get a reality check and stop perceiving those measures as anti-car.

Now, that's just my opinion, not trying to antagonise anyone.

Ok, I'm going to make what I mean very short and succinct...

...bad road design is not the solution to bad driving or excessive car use...

...in fact, bad road design can cause major frustration not only for motorists, but also pedestrians as road and junction narrowing can concentrate traffic or create slow, but more continuous streams thereby increasing severance - I walk, so I know what I'm talking about. I also hope Varadkar does away with the stupid law regarding jay walking just as he did for cyclists regarding mandatory use of cycle paths/tracks - sure almost everyone jay walks and I see nothing wrong with it - more slip roads and traffic islands are needed to facilitate high speed walking and island hopping which greatly speeds up pedestrian progress. Such measures would also break major crossings down into more manageable segments for people with mobility issues. Then there's cycling which requires equal consideration - cycle expressways could be considered in urban areas.

monument

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to make what I mean very short and succinct...

...bad road design is not the solution to bad driving or excessive car use...

...in fact, bad road design can cause major frustration not only for motorists, but also pedestrians as road and junction narrowing can concentrate traffic or create slow, but more continuous streams thereby increasing severance - I walk, so I know what I'm talking about. I also hope Varadkar does away with the stupid law regarding jay walking just as he did for cyclists regarding mandatory use of cycle paths/tracks - sure almost everyone jay walks and I see nothing wrong with it - more slip roads and traffic islands are needed to facilitate high speed walking and island hopping which greatly speeds up pedestrian progress. Such measures would also break major crossings down into more manageable segments for people with mobility issues. Then there's cycling which requires equal consideration - cycle expressways could be considered in urban areas.

You see nothing wrong with pedestrians breaking traffic lights?

Irish and Proud

monument wrote: »

You see nothing wrong with pedestrians breaking traffic lights?

TBH, pedestrians were there long before anything else - IMO, their movement shouldn't be over restricted - so maybe that's what removing slips on junctions are all about - putting people firmly in their place - oh, and by removing left lanes too, pedestrians will then find it harder to tell which direction the cars are going thereby forcing them to wait - for example, if there's a long left filter with a slip and there's no car on it, then I can hop on to the nearest splitter island and with left turning traffic no issue between splitter islands, my progress is then a lot faster in getting across - especially with a centre traffic island. So as someone pointed out here already, the powers that be are really anti-people-getting-about rather than being just anti-car. The laws relating to jay walking do require pedestrians to wait at red lights and I would (in the capacity of a poster) advise them to do so, but in general I do think it's very restrictive against the free movement of people.

Is this a Soviet Communist state or something???

Larbre34

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Is this a Soviet Communist state or something???

When it comes to car users, yes. Give your stress levels a break and offer up the inevitable or you'll be on the valium after the next few years assaults on motorists.....

Irish and Proud

Larbre34 wrote: »

When it comes to car users, yes. Give your stress levels a break and offer up the inevitable or you'll be on the valium after the next few years assaults on motorists.....

It won't happen, because the people won't have it and that's that!!!

You simply cannot force people from their cars without serious investment in rail and proper integration by means of P+R - that's why I support the expansion of Luas and DART - the bus simply doesn't compare to rail - it's crap IMO - ride the Luas and you'll see what I mean. When people talk about Europe, what they forget is that many of these 'anti-car' cities have very good public transport systems - thats the key. Cycling and walking would be key for the last one or two miles of the journey, but that's as far as human powered transit will go for most people.

The Dublin bikes scheme seems like a very good idea - ideally, one would drive to his/her local train station and progress to his/her destination station without the need for any more than one change. From the station, walking would be the obvious choice for most while being able to pick up a bike and ride would be the obvious option for slightly longer distances. But in general that's not what's happening in Ireland ATM (apart from one or two showpieces) - what's happening IMO is Soviet style dictatorship - we as a western country are seriously losing our way - if anti-free-movement is what the EU is promoting (which I don't think it is), then EUSSR??? no thanks!!! :eek:

enas

Irish and Proud wrote: »

what's happening IMO is Soviet style dictatorship

Thank you that was hilarious!

Seriously, maybe I missed some parts of the discussion, but we're just talking of tighter corners, narrower lanes, and the odd traffic calming measure, aren't we?

monument

Irish and Proud wrote: »

TBH, pedestrians were there long before anything else - IMO, their movement shouldn't be over restricted - so maybe that's what removing slips on junctions are all about - putting people firmly in their place - oh, and by removing left lanes too, pedestrians will then find it harder to tell which direction the cars are going thereby forcing them to wait - for example, if there's a long left filter with a slip and there's no car on it, then I can hop on to the nearest splitter island and with left turning traffic no issue between splitter islands, my progress is then a lot faster in getting across - especially with a centre traffic island. So as someone pointed out here already, the powers that be are really anti-people-getting-about rather than being just anti-car. The laws relating to jay walking do require pedestrians to wait at red lights and I would (in the capacity of a poster) advise them to do so, but in general I do think it's very restrictive against the free movement of people.

Is this a Soviet Communist state or something???

No, it's not a Soviet Communist state but suggesting it's dandy for people to jaywalk is not how democracy works.

Rather than fixing crossing for pedestrians, wheelchair users, pram users etc, your solution is for those who are able to break the law to do so and it seems feck the rest.

Larbre34

monument wrote: »

No, it's not a Soviet Communist state but suggesting it's dandy for people to jaywalk is not how democracy works.

Rather than fixing crossing for pedestrians, wheelchair users, pram users etc, your solution is for those who are able to break the law to do so and it seems feck the rest.

Yeah in fairness he's become ridiculous. All it is is a policy change to demote the car to last place in the traffic priority, for environmental, safety and economic reasons, not the end of the world. If you want to take your V8 up to the mountains for a blowout you still can, its just going to be less and less practical to have a car in built up areas as time goes on, and the design paramaters for roads and streets will reflect that

1) Pedestrians
2) Cyclists)
3) Buses and PSVs
4) Commercial traffic and deliveries
5) Private cars

Irish and Proud

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yeah in fairness he's become ridiculous. All it is is a policy change to demote the car to last place in the traffic priority, for environmental, safety and economic reasons, not the end of the world. If you want to take your V8 up to the mountains for a blowout you still can, its just going to be less and less practical to have a car in built up areas as time goes on, and the design paramaters for roads and streets will reflect that

1) Pedestrians
2) Cyclists)
3) Buses and PSVs
4) Commercial traffic and deliveries
5) Private cars

...and maybe a lesser price (in terms of tax) for a lesser service for motorists!

Irish and Proud

monument wrote: »

No, it's not a Soviet Communist state but suggesting it's dandy for people to jaywalk is not how democracy works.

Rather than fixing crossing for pedestrians, wheelchair users, pram users etc, your solution is for those who are able to break the law to do so and it seems feck the rest.

..of course you retain traffic signals for people with mobility issues, and of course I didn't suggest breaking the law, but changing it like I've said.

Come on guys, read the damn posts will you...

josip

enas wrote: »

Thank you that was hilarious!

Seriously, maybe I missed some parts of the discussion, but we're just talking of tighter corners, narrower lanes, and the odd traffic calming measure, aren't we?

My understanding is that some contractors will benefit to the combined tune of €430,000 for work that most people seem to think is unnecessary but which the council persist with. Very USSR IMO.

enas

josip wrote: »

My understanding is that some contractors will benefit to the combined tune of €430,000 for work that most people seem to think is unnecessary but which the council persist with. Very USSR IMO.

His full expression was USSR-style dictatorship. As far as I can tell, people's life doesn't seem to be adversely affected by those works, to any extent that is even remotely comparable to what people had to endure under those dictatorships. What you're describing is a situation where some people are elected, they do some stuff. If people really don't agree with that, they won't be reelected, and that's the end of it. That's how democracy works. This is as far as it gets from a USSR dictatorship.

But yeah sure, slowing down a car on the approach to a roundabout is almost the same as being sent to the gulag.