sinn fein why the hatred

PomBear

Blay wrote: »

I think what people have a problem with is Martin Ferris collecting his killers from jail...a man that is now a Sinn Fein TD, but obviously condones the murder of Gardai.

Not really, he sought their release along with many others as part of the Good Friday Agreement, their release was delayed. He doesn't have to agree with their offenses to advocate their release.
Martin Ferris played a huge part in negotiating the Good Friday Agreement, obviously he does not want to see provisions being reneged on.

Witcher

PomBear wrote: »

Not really, he sought their release along with many others as part of the Good Friday Agreement, their release was delayed. He doesn't have to agree with their offenses to advocate their release.
Martin Ferris played a huge part in negotiating the Good Friday Agreement, obviously he does not want to see provisions being reneged on.

You can trot out the GFA etc. all day long but to myself and I dare say most people, Martin Ferris; a Sinn Fein TD and thus representative of the party collected 2 men who murdered 2 Gardai in cold blood..thus showing support of their actions..that's the bottom line. Everyone's entitled to their opinion on the issue, but SF's recent image of a changed party is all BS in my eyes, they'll never have my vote anyway.

paul71

PomBear wrote: »

Now a few reasons why that's a bit of a joke.

• The killing was brought out by individual members of the IRA "in contravention of its orders".

And here is a reason the murder was not a bit of a joke,

A current member of the dail picked up the murderers from the jail and has supported their actions all along. The single that sends out is that it is ok to murder our unarmed police force if you dont agree with the nations political stance. Irrespective of their orders at the time Martis Ferri9s condons murder.

PomBear

Blay wrote: »

You can trot out the GFA etc. all day long but to myself and I dare say most people, Martin Ferris; a Sinn Fein TD and thus representative of the party collected 2 men who murdered 2 Gardai in cold blood..thus showing support of their actions..that's the bottom line. Everyone's entitled to their opinion on the issue, but SF's recent image of a changed party is all BS in my eyes, they'll never have my vote anyway.

What is your opinion on the Alliance Party demanding their release?

Witcher

PomBear wrote: »

What is your opinion on the Alliance Party demanding their release?

We're discussng Sinn Fein here, party X, Y or Z might have campaigned for their release but at the end of the day a SF TD collected them from jail, thus showing that he and by extension his party support people who murder Gardai in cold blood. You can list 1000 excuses but there's no justification for a TD to collect 2 men who murdered members of the national police service..none. You obviously have a different opinion to myself and you're entitled to it as I said before but the actions of MF are a perfect example of how I see SF..talking out of both sides of it's mouth...desperate to escape the past but clinging to the 'up the 'RA' image to hold onto support from long time supporters.

Wolfe Tone

The McCabe incident was the result of an operation, an unsanctioned one at that, going horribly wrong. Depending on who you ask they either shot the Gardaí straight off, or did so when they saw them lunge for their weapons. Did the vols set out deliberately to kill him that day? No, not at all, even the unjust special criminal court didn't find it was murder.

Martin Ferris collecting them had a lot to do with not wanting to be perceived as "leaving men behind" I think. They should have got out under the GFA imo.

Anyway, it doesn't seem to have hurt him in the election, how many first preferences did he get last time out? Around the 20% mark if I remember correctly.

PomBear

Blay wrote: »

We're discussng Sinn Fein here, party X, Y or Z might have campaigned for their release but at the end of the day a SF TD collected them from jail, thus showing that he and by extension his party support people who murder Gardai in cold blood. You can list 1000 excuses but there's no justification for a TD to collect 2 men who murdered members of the national police service..none. You obviously have a different opinion to myself and you're entitled to it as I said before but the actions of MF are a perfect example of how I see SF..talking out of both sides of it's mouth...desperate to escape the past but clinging to the 'up the 'RA' image to hold onto support from long time supporters.

If you want to have a discussion, are you going to address any of my points or reiterate the opinions you've already stated? I have made valid points as to why I believe you are wrong, I don't see much validity in your opinion if you don't address my argument at all.

Witcher

PomBear wrote: »

If you want to have a discussion, are you going to address any of my points or reiterate the opinions you've already stated? I have made valid points as to why I believe you are wrong, I don't see much validity in your opinion if you don't address my argument at all.

I've answered your points; you threw out the GFA as justification, I addressed that, you threw out the AP's campaign for their release I addressed that. I frankly don't care if you find validity in my opinion, I can't find any in your either, but we're both entitled to our respective views on the issue which are unlikely to change on either side so we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

PomBear

Blay wrote: »

I've answered your points; you threw out the GFA as justification, I addressed that, you threw out the AP's campaign for their release I addressed that. I frankly don't care if you find validity in my opinion, I don't find any in yours either, we're both entitled to our respective views on the issue which are unlikely to change on either side so we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

You didn't address either. You didn't answer either directly. You just shrugged them off due to an opinion you have without giving valid response. Not exactly a valid argument, if you want to give your opinion the legitimacy you feel it deserves.

Witcher

PomBear wrote: »

You didn't address either. You didn't answer either directly. You just shrugged them off due to an opinion you have without giving valid response. Not exactly a valid argument, if you want to give your opinion the legitimacy you feel it deserves.

I guess I'll have to leave it to other readers of the thread to decide if my argument is valid or not, I've thrown it out there so I'll step aside and let others debate the topic at hand, if others disagree with me then so be it.:)

paul71

Alopex wrote: »

I am disappointed that so many people mention Jerry McCabe but not the hundreds of RUC men and women who were murdered.

Vast majority of the RUC were no different to the psni or gardai walking the streets and defending us from republican terrorists today.

I can understand how angry you are at Sinn Fein for Jerry McCabe but remember there were over 300 Jerry McCabes for us in north of the border

I know all about the 300 Jerry McCabes north of the border and the disgust that I feel over their deaths runs high. However, the good friday agreement and the ceasefire was a watershed in politics in Ireland whereby as two separate communities we decided put aside our differences and had to swallow the unpalatable act for many of releasing IRA, INLA, and UVF members from prison for the sake of our futures.

McCabes killers broke the bond of thrust by deliberating murdering him after the ceasefire and then sought releif under the auspices of the peace process that they nearly destroyed.

Pombear, I hope that addresses the issue I have with Martin Ferris, and as regards the Alliance Parties position, until now I was not aware of it but frankly I think it is also wrong.

A line had to be drawn in the sand somewhere and for me it was the first ceasefire, otherwise where is it drawn? With the Omagh bombers or with the recent murders of PSNI officers?

Chuck Stone

paul71 wrote: »

I know all about the 300 Jerry McCabes north of the border and the disgust that I feel over their deaths runs high.

The RUC colluded with the loyalist murder gangs and therefore presented itself as a legitimate target for Republican paramilitaries.

They also failed miserably in their duty to protect civilians from their rabidly paranoid fellow loyalists at the time of the civil rights movement.

I'd equate it to the 'good priest' notion that people seem to hold dearly to after the clerical abuse scandals.

They weren't 'good priests' if they remained within the Catholic clergy and knew about what was happening. If they were good priests they would have tried to expose their abusive (or in the case of the RUC murderous) colleagues.

Former RUC officer John Weir attests to collusion

Liam Byrne

PomBear wrote: »

Not really, he sought their release along with many others as part of the Good Friday Agreement, their release was delayed. He doesn't have to agree with their offenses to advocate their release.
Martin Ferris played a huge part in negotiating the Good Friday Agreement, obviously he does not want to see provisions being reneged on.

The killing was brought out by individual members of the IRA "in contravention of its orders".

This is the exact duplicity that causes people to hate SF.

On the one hand it wasn't an IRA atrocity, which would have broken their ceasefire.

On the other hand it was, because otherwise it would have been a pure criminal murder and nothing to do with the GFA.

Yet SF simultaneously saw both contradictory sides of this, aactively campaigned for their unjustified release, and then were perfectly OK with a member collecting the murderers from said jail.

What would your view be if Micheál Martin collected Ray Burke from jail ? Would you see it as proof that nothing had changed ?

So why treat SF differently for those who chose to commit a far worse crime ?

Answer : contemptible duplicity and a blinkered attitude to what suits them

It can't have been both an IRA-sanctioned murder and an unsanctioned murder, and if it were the latter then it had SFA to do with the GFA, and SF should have butted out completely.

If this is how SF choose to act, they will be judged accordingly.

lugha

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

No, not at all, even the unjust special criminal court didn't find it was murder.

So murder is something less unless it is established as such by a court. Presumably you don't describe the deaths of any civilians at the hands of the BA in Northern Ireland as murder, as no court has convicted them of this charge?

Of course it was murder. :rolleyes:

end a eknny

what a load of ****e people still crying about the nurder of a handful of gardai. gardai who are resposible for more than a hundred deaths and none of whom served anytime. gardai who join a force to get a nice easy well paid pensionable job. cant be compared to people who volunteered to help defend and free their country from british rule knowing that volunteering would mean having no normal family life. repeated harrasment-beatings from the brave police on both sides, mostly lightly spend time in jail on little or no evidence(ther word of a gardai...joke) and quite possibly end up being shot. as for some twat who claimed is relatives fought in 1916 but that was diffferent stupid ****e they killed people back then to free ireland it maybe have escaped some of you braind dead ****s but ireland is still not free. but it is certainly closer now thanks to a few thousand brave men and women

Jelle1880

end a eknny wrote: »

what a load of ****e people still crying about the nurder of a handful of gardai. gardai who are resposible for more than a hundred deaths and none of whom served anytime. gardai who join a force to get a nice easy well paid pensionable job. cant be compared to people who volunteered to help defend and free their country from british rule knowing that volunteering would mean having no normal family life. repeated harrasment-beatings from the brave police on both sides, mostly lightly spend time in jail on little or no evidence(ther word of a gardai...joke) and quite possibly end up being shot. as for some twat who claimed is relatives fought in 1916 but that was diffferent stupid ****e they killed people back then to free ireland it maybe have escaped some of you braind dead ****s but ireland is still not free. but it is certainly closer now thanks to a few thousand brave men and women

Yeah, all hail those true heroes who blew up shops and pubs.
Takes balls to do that, doesn't it ?

For an Irish republican you sure have a twisted view of reality.
You would rather support men and women, who were in all likeliness born in the UK, instead of supporting real Irish men and women of your own police force.
Not just that, but you also don't seem to care when those Irish men and women are murdered.

problemchimp

angelfire9 wrote: »

I can count 3 Gardai killed by the IRA
1) Detective Garda Jerry Mc Cabe
2) Inspector Sam Donegan (my father was stationed in Cavan when this one happened so there but for the grace of God go I)
3) Garda Recruit Gary Sheehan

How many people have been "killed" at the hands of the Gardai?
John Carthy??? (and he was waving a gun at them at the time)

Terence Wheelock

COYW

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The McCabe incident was the result of an operation

A lovely term to describe the cold blooded murder of someone's husband, father or brother.

paul71

end a eknny wrote: »

what a load of ****e people still crying about the nurder of a handful of gardai. gardai who are resposible for more than a hundred deaths and none of whom served anytime. gardai who join a force to get a nice easy well paid pensionable job. cant be compared to people who volunteered to help defend and free their country from british rule knowing that volunteering would mean having no normal family life. repeated harrasment-beatings from the brave police on both sides, mostly lightly spend time in jail on little or no evidence(ther word of a gardai...joke) and quite possibly end up being shot. as for some twat who claimed is relatives fought in 1916 but that was diffferent stupid ****e they killed people back then to free ireland it maybe have escaped some of you braind dead ****s but ireland is still not free. but it is certainly closer now thanks to a few thousand brave men and women

What in the name of god are you talking about? What 100 deaths?

Volunteering to free who from British rule? The 1.2 Million majority of the north who wish to remain under British rule!

What harassment beatings did the Gardai perpurtrate?

What brave men and women? The ones that planted bombs that killed childern in Warington!

Liam Byrne

COYW wrote: »

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The McCabe incident was the result of an operation

A lovely term to describe the cold blooded murder of someone's husband, father or brother.

Ah but in fainess he only uses those phrases half the time.....if it's not an IRA thug (sanctioned or otherwise) he'll use proper words like we would, even condemning the murderers..... they balance out, y'see, if you use them like that, so it's then a balanced argument.

It's like the fact that Wolfe Tone takes the lower conviction on this case as unchallengable proof, fact, move along - justice done in court.....

.....and yet contests stuff like The Birmingham Six and Brendan Lillis etc because justice is often not done in court.

Basically the blinkered self-serving double-standards that make SF despicable to those who think justice and equality for all should be precisely that.

paul71

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The RUC colluded with the loyalist murder gangs and therefore presented itself as a legitimate target for Republican paramilitaries.

They also failed miserably in their duty to protect civilians from their rabidly paranoid fellow loyalists at the time of the civil rights movement.

I'd equate it to the 'good priest' notion that people seem to hold dearly to after the clerical abuse scandals.

They weren't 'good priests' if they remained within the Catholic clergy and knew about what was happening. If they were good priests they would have tried to expose their abusive (or in the case of the RUC murderous) colleagues.

Former RUC officer John Weir attests to collusion

I am also aware of the colusion, but this was accepted as part of the Good Friday agreement and I am not aware of any case of RUC or PSNI colusion in any murders after the ceasefire.

R P McMurphy

paul71 wrote: »

I am also aware of the colusion, but this was accepted as part of the Good Friday agreement and I am not aware of any case of RUC or PSNI colusion in any murders after the ceasefire.

Whatdo you mean by this?

angelfire9

end a eknny wrote: »

what a load of ****e people still crying about the nurder of a handful of gardai. gardai who are resposible for more than a hundred deaths and none of whom served anytime. gardai who join a force to get a nice easy well paid pensionable job. cant be compared to people who volunteered to help defend and free their country from british rule knowing that volunteering would mean having no normal family life. repeated harrasment-beatings from the brave police on both sides, mostly lightly spend time in jail on little or no evidence(ther word of a gardai...joke) and quite possibly end up being shot. as for some twat who claimed is relatives fought in 1916 but that was diffferent stupid ****e they killed people back then to free ireland it maybe have escaped some of you braind dead ****s but ireland is still not free. but it is certainly closer now thanks to a few thousand brave men and women

I take extreme offence to this statement
Jerry Mc Cabe didn't murder anyone he was on duty and was shot like a dog in his car by a group of thugs who wanted to rob a post office to get funds for their illegal organisation
His colleague Ben O'Sullivan was seriously wounded & left for dead by the same scum

My father did not join the Gardai to get a nice easy pensionable job, nor did either of his brothers, nor did my husband
They joined to serve their community
My father was scheduled to be on duty in Cavan on the day that inspector donegan died in Leggykelly
The only reason he wasn't there was because he had to take emergency leave when my sister ended up in hospital with appendicitis
There but for the grace of God my father could have been killed that day
My uncle served his entire 30 years in AGS on the border where in the 70's a patrol along the border could have gotten him killed at any time
Hardly a nice easy pensionable job

Then there was the kidnapping of Don Tidey, another IRA money collecting exercise which resulted in the death of Garda recruit Gary Sheehan and an army officer who's name I am sad to say I do not know

My husband got stabbed by a junkie scumbag in Dublin city centre when he was in his 20's and in the prime of his life and as fit as a fiddle
Years later he still suffers from crippling back pain and is on restricted duties as a result
A nice cushy pensionable job? Yeah right!!

The gardai are the people you call when the worst thing happens in your life, a murder, a rape, a burglary.....
They respond 24/7 365 days a year

I remember one Christmas morning when my dad was I/C he had to leave his Christmas dinner for a sudden death and he wasn't even scheduled to work that day

When you are out enjoying yourself on December 24th or 26th or 31st the Gardai are patrolling the streets protecting you

And its not for a nice cushy pensionable job

Enda, you appear to have an absolute anti Garda agenda and I am not going to continue to defend the Gardai against this vitriol but this ^^^ had to be said

Now, back on topic
SF and Jerry Mc Cabe

In order for the killers of Det. Gda. Mc Cabe to qualify under the GFA then the murder of this Garda and attempted murder of his colleague must have been sanctioned by the IRA council (which would have contravened their ceasefire)
Gerry Adams denied all knowledge of the murder at the time

Then a short while later SF campaigned for their early release under the GFA

They refused to apologise to Ann Mc Cabe or her family for Jerry's murder
They refused to apologise to Ben O Sullivan for his injuries

THEN they send Martin Ferris to Castlerea to pick up the lads upon their release

Double standards anyone????

paul71

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Whatdo you mean by this?

What I mean by it was that in the spirit of the good friday agreement IRA, INLA, and UVF members were released from prison having taken part in murder, bombings and sectarian violence if they signed into the peace process.

A minority of the RUC coluded with UVF and other loyalists groups in their activities (just as a smaller number of gardai did with the IRA), it would go against the spirit of the agreement to release the perpetrators of the crimes but to punish members of the security forces who assisted them.

This does not absolve the responsibilty of anyone who picked up a gun or planted a bomb or anyone who helped them, but for the sake of peace we accepted this.

R P McMurphy

paul71 wrote: »

What I mean by it was that in the spirit of the good friday agreement IRA, INLA, and UVF members were released from prison having taken part in murder, bombings and sectarian violence if they signed into the peace process.

A minority of the RUC coluded with UVF and other loyalists groups in their activities (just as a smaller number of gardai did with the IRA), it would go against the spirit of the agreement to release the perpetrators of the crimes but to punish members of the security forces who assisted them.

This does not absolve the responsibilty of anyone who picked up a gun or planted a bomb or anyone who helped them, but for the sake of peace we accepted this.

That is complete nonsense, the Good Friday Agreement does not provide a legal absolution to people that committed crimes prior to it being devised. That is the sort of mindframe that it evident around Belfast last weekend with the protests against the HET. While collusion may have been limited to a minority of the RUC, the numbers would still be significantly high (not even getting onto the UDR). It is not against the spirit of the GFA to hunt them down and hold them accountable for their actions (it will never happen but it should)

pablomakaveli

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah but in fainess he only uses those phrases half the time.....if it's not an IRA thug (sanctioned or otherwise) he'll use proper words like we would, even condemning the murderers..... they balance out, y'see, if you use them like that, so it's then a balanced argument.

It's like the fact that Wolfe Tone takes the lower conviction on this case as unchallengable proof, fact, move along - justice done in court.....

.....and yet contests stuff like The Birmingham Six and Brendan Lillis etc because justice is often not done in court.

Basically the blinkered self-serving double-standards that make SF despicable to those who think justice and equality for all should be precisely that.

Not to mention the thread which said Adams and the IRA helped fight apartheid.

These convenient double standards are why Sinn Fein and their supporters are disliked by many.

vellocet

paul71 wrote: »

Unarmed, sitting in a stopped car, gun pointed, trigger pulled, I don't care what the court called it, it was cold brutal murder.

Point of order. Neither Garda was unarmed. Thats why its called armed support.

But carry on.

paul71

R P McMurphy wrote: »

That is complete nonsense, the Good Friday Agreement does not provide a legal absolution to people that committed crimes prior to it being devised. That is the sort of mindframe that it evident around Belfast last weekend with the protests against the HET. While collusion may have been limited to a minority of the RUC, the numbers would still be significantly high (not even getting onto the UDR). It is not against the spirit of the GFA to hunt them down and hold them accountable for their actions (it will never happen but it should)

Yes it is against the spirit of the agreement. I am afraid it is your assertion that is nonsense, why should the murderer of Timothy Parry a 10 year old boy be free if you want to send a member of the RUC to Jail for a similar murder (if the there was one even as heinous).

If anything it only exposes a flaw in the final agreement in that there was no Truth and Reconciliation process in exchange for amnesty as was the case in South Africa.

vellocet

Blay wrote: »

You can trot out the GFA etc. all day long but to myself and I dare say most people, Martin Ferris; a Sinn Fein TD and thus representative of the party collected 2 men who murdered 2 Gardai in cold blood..thus showing support of their actions..that's the bottom line. Everyone's entitled to their opinion on the issue, but SF's recent image of a changed party is all BS in my eyes, they'll never have my vote anyway.

So the unionists have to man up and deal with killers being released for peace reasons, but us in the south shouldn't have to deal with the same?

There is a long story behind why that Provo shot that Garda. It was wrong and I do not condone it, but spare me the 'hero' cop routine.

paul71

vellocet wrote: »

Point of order. Neither Garda was unarmed. Thats why its called armed support.

But carry on.

Niether Gardai even went near their guns, the Murderers with AK47s walked up to the car, aimed, fired, paused, reaimed and fired again at already wounded and disabled Gardai.

Your point of order is pedantic.

vellocet

paul71 wrote: »

Niether Gardai even went near their guns, the Murderers with AK47s walked up to the car, aimed, fired, paused, reaimed and fired again at already wounded and disabled Gardai.

Your point of order is pedantic.

No it isn't. People are talking about the murder of 'unarmed' gardai. They had two guns apiece. Its emotive and innacurate.

One Provo and one Provo only fired upon the Gardaí, specifically targeting Gda McCabe over a previous incident. He was then told by a man with a northern accent to 'stop fcuking shooting and get back in the car'.

You are, again, spinning an inaccurate account of the event for political point scoring.

Read the court transcripts.

R P McMurphy

paul71 wrote: »

Yes it is against the spirit of the agreement. I am afraid it is your assertion that is nonsense, why should the murderer of Timothy Parry a 10 year old boy be free if you want to send a member of the RUC to Jail for a similar murder (if the there was one even as heinous).

If anything it only exposes a flaw in the final agreement in that there was no Truth and Reconciliation process in exchange for amnesty as was the case in South Africa.

No it is not and I don't think anyone voted for the agreement on the basis that those that committed crimes and were NEVER held accountable for them would get a free pass. The difference is that Loyalist and Republican prisoners were caught, tried and imprisoned. Those guilty of collusion were free to continue on with their lives and careers unhindered after conspiring and facilitating murder. They conspired to murder the citizens they were trusted to protect. They should face the consequences of their actions

paul71

vellocet wrote: »

No it isn't. People are talking about the murder of 'unarmed' gardai. They had two guns apiece. Its emotive and innacurate.

One Provo and one Provo only fired upon the Gardaí, specifically targeting Gda McCabe over a previous incident. He was then told by a man with a northern accent to 'stop fcuking shooting and get back in the car'.

You are, again, spinning an inaccurate account of the event for political point scoring.

Read the court transcripts.

I did read the court transcipt, and I understand the firing action of an AK47.

A short burst of fire followed by a pause. An AK47 moves up and to the right after 2 or 3 rounds.

The pause was to reaim the gun, during which time the murderer could clearly see that niether man had moved for their guns and were severly wounded, then he fired again.

There is nothing emotive about cold hard facts especially the aspect of reaiming an AK47.

jmayo

end a eknny wrote: »

was it not manslaughter

Yeah mansluaghter with an AK47.

end a eknny wrote: »

there was a awful lot more who where shot by the gardai not to mention how many died mysteriously in custody. how many gardai where shot by
fellow gardai by mistake. the gardai where paid to protect the irish people and yet the ira where volunteers who actually defended the irish people many who died while doing so

Yeah killing kids shopping, killing people at remembrance services, killing people in a fish shop on saturday afternoon, abducting and murdering widows leaving the children orphans, blowing up a guy with young kids on his boat while on holidays are really defending the Irish people. :rolleyes:

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

so...you are from Offaly I see..

He shure does a lot to raise the image of Offaly people. :rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

...
The SF of today is vastly different to that of 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

How many years ago was it ferris collecting them from prison ?
It was less than 10 years.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The McCabe incident was the result of an operation, an unsanctioned one at that, going horribly wrong. Depending on who you ask they either shot the Gardaí straight off, or did so when they saw them lunge for their weapons.

Ever thought they might have been "lunging" for their weapons, which btw would not be assualt rifles like the killers had, when they were faced with armed men and they were doing their duty to protect the state's money.
Except they didn't lunge for their guns, did they ?
They ddin't get a chance.
Again twisting the truth ?

You are worse that the gibberish posting fellow from Offaly because you are one of the educated shinners who tries to spin the truth into some kind of knot, all the while conveniently rewriting history to suit your own ends.
I haven't ever heard someone being charged for "incident"?
Murder yes, incident no.

Fook me pink, but the pira were one very inept organisation what with all the operations that went horribly wrong.
Is that what happened at Warrington, Enniskillen, etc ?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Did the vols set out deliberately to kill him that day? No, not at all, even the unjust special criminal court didn't find it was murder.

Again twisting the truth.
The DPP charged them with the lesser manslaughter since witnesses mysteriously refused to testify.
I also notice how you label the Special Criminal Court "unjust".

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Martin Ferris collecting them had a lot to do with not wanting to be perceived as "leaving men behind" I think.

Fook it they have the code of the US Marines now.
Oh what am I saying, they couldn't be like those since the US Marines are part of the British/US abhorrent regimes so detested by all shinners and IRA followers.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

They should have got out under the GFA imo.

Why ?
Were thy fighting for "our" freedom robbing a post office delivery ?

end a eknny wrote: »

what a load of ****e people still crying about the nurder of a handful of gardai. gardai who are resposible for more than a hundred deaths and none of whom served anytime. gardai who join a force to get a nice easy well paid pensionable job. cant be compared to people who volunteered to help defend and free their country from british rule knowing that volunteering would mean having no normal family life. repeated harrasment-beatings from the brave police on both sides, mostly lightly spend time in jail on little or no evidence(ther word of a gardai...joke) and quite possibly end up being shot. as for some twat who claimed is relatives fought in 1916 but that was diffferent stupid ****e they killed people back then to free ireland it maybe have escaped some of you braind dead ****s but ireland is still not free. but it is certainly closer now thanks to a few thousand brave men and women

Thank you, thank you.

As long as people like you exist and spout this drivel you will remind the rest of us what sf represent and what their supporters are really like.

BTW ever heard of a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence. :rolleyes:
Oh and it is Ireland not ireland. :mad:

paul71

R P McMurphy wrote: »

No it is not and I don't think anyone voted for the agreement on the basis that those that committed crimes and were NEVER held accountable for them would get a free pass. The difference is that Loyalist and Republican prisoners were caught, tried and imprisoned. Those guilty of collusion were free to continue on with their lives and careers unhindered after conspiring and facilitating murder. They conspired to murder the citizens they were trusted to protect. They should face the consequences of their actions

Fine if you hold that opinion then I can equally assert that all released terrorists should be re-imprisoned, lets all go back to 1971 shall we.

vellocet

paul71 wrote: »

I did read the court transcipt, and I understand the firing action of an AK47.

A short burst of fire followed by a pause. An AK47 moves up and to the right after 2 or 3 rounds.

The pause was to reaim the gun, during which time the murderer could clearly see that niether man had moved for their guns and were severly wounded, then he fired again.

There is nothing emotive about cold hard facts especially the aspect of reaiming an AK47.

So you now agree that one person did the shooting?

Do you agree with my central point that this was one of the robbers who broke discipline and shot a specific Garda for a specific reason?

Again, I do not condone this killing and thought Ferris picking them up was bewildering. But there is so much emotive guff being spouted around the killing that its gone too far.

R P McMurphy

paul71 wrote: »

Fine if you hold that opinion then I can equally assert that all released terrorists should be re-imprisoned, lets all go back to 1971 shall we.

The important part is highlighted. Some people have evaded any sort of justice and that is not acceptable. You have some kindered spirits around Belfast at the moment

JustinDee

laoch na mona wrote: »

i am shocked by how many people are anti sinn fein because of things that happend in the troubles and most of these people are ignorant of the reasons behind the troubles or what unionists and the british army did during the troubles

Might I ask how old you were in the 70s and 80s?

Omacron

The OPs question was why there is so much hatred for Sinn Fein. I think it stems from the fact that Sinn Fein supporters are perhaps at times unfairly generalized as poorly educated, anti British, ignorant bigots by a large section of what I hesitantly refer to as "normal Irish society." Its only when you read posts from certain board members here that you sadly realise there may be some truth in that perception.

paul71

vellocet wrote: »

So you now agree that one person did the shooting?

Do you agree with my central point that this was one of the robbers who broke discipline and shot a specific Garda for a specific reason?

Again, I do not condone this killing and thought Ferris picking them up was bewildering. But there is so much emotive guff being spouted around the killing that its gone too far.

I never said more than one fired, please show me the post where I said that. Even given that why should the others be absolved of blame for the criminal act of armed robbery and carrying AK47s after the first ceasefire.

I accept that you are uncomfortable with Ferris, but the issue is why people are entrenched against SF, for many Ferris is the reason so the McCabe murder is central to the debate. If SF shed Ferris they are left with some very articulate and intelligent TDs, whom although I do not agree with their economic stance will be a force in the Dail in the future.

paul71

R P McMurphy wrote: »

The important part is highlighted. Some people have evaded any sort of justice and that is not acceptable. You have some kindered spirits around Belfast at the moment

And there are many IRA, INLA and UVF members who also evaded capture and imprisonment. To go after them and coluding members of the security forces could still put the peace process at risk, even 15 years on. Surely you must accept that. Hence my point about the lack of a truth and reconciliation process.

fergpie

Some recent reasons to dislike Sinn Fein:

1. Their economic policy in the last election was beyond a joke. (kick out the IMF and raid the pension fund essentially. That will solve our problems)

2. Employing Mary McArdle as special adviser to the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure. Surely there are more qualified people for the position that a convicted murderer. (she's not the only former prisoner employed by SF)

3. Having basketcases like Caitriona Ruane as a minister. All her solutions to Northern Ireland's social and economic problems involve a united Ireland. Great imagination there.

4. Maintaining their position on the Queen's Visit as 'premature' even though the vast majority of the people of Ireland was in favor of the visit and moving on. Staying away from the events of the visit yet whoring themselves out to the national broadcasters for any air time.

R P McMurphy

paul71 wrote: »

And there are many IRA, INLA and UVF members who also evaded capture and imprisonment. To go after them and coluding members of the security forces could still put the peace process at risk, even 15 years on. Surely you must accept that. Hence my point about the lack of a truth and reconciliation process.

I would not accept that at all. The HET are tasked with doing just that but their primary focus seems to be on Loyalists/Republicans. They should hunt dowm the members of the members of the security forces that have a case to answer. What are you implying, that the members of the security forces that engaged in facilitating/carrying out murder have the capacity to derail the peace process. The is a bit of a stretch.

end a eknny

angelfire9 wrote: »

I take extreme offence to this statement
Jerry Mc Cabe didn't murder anyone he was on duty and was shot like a dog in his car by a group of thugs who wanted to rob a post office to get funds for their illegal organisation
His colleague Ben O'Sullivan was seriously wounded & left for dead by the same scum

My father did not join the Gardai to get a nice easy pensionable job, nor did either of his brothers, nor did my husband
They joined to serve their community
My father was scheduled to be on duty in Cavan on the day that inspector donegan died in Leggykelly
The only reason he wasn't there was because he had to take emergency leave when my sister ended up in hospital with appendicitis
There but for the grace of God my father could have been killed that day
My uncle served his entire 30 years in AGS on the border where in the 70's a patrol along the border could have gotten him killed at any time
Hardly a nice easy pensionable job

Then there was the kidnapping of Don Tidey, another IRA money collecting exercise which resulted in the death of Garda recruit Gary Sheehan and an army officer who's name I am sad to say I do not know

My husband got stabbed by a junkie scumbag in Dublin city centre when he was in his 20's and in the prime of his life and as fit as a fiddle
Years later he still suffers from crippling back pain and is on restricted duties as a result
A nice cushy pensionable job? Yeah right!!

The gardai are the people you call when the worst thing happens in your life, a murder, a rape, a burglary.....
They respond 24/7 365 days a year

I remember one Christmas morning when my dad was I/C he had to leave his Christmas dinner for a sudden death and he wasn't even scheduled to work that day

When you are out enjoying yourself on December 24th or 26th or 31st the Gardai are patrolling the streets protecting you

And its not for a nice cushy pensionable job

Enda, you appear to have an absolute anti Garda agenda and I am not going to continue to defend the Gardai against this vitriol but this ^^^ had to be said

Now, back on topic
SF and Jerry Mc Cabe

In order for the killers of Det. Gda. Mc Cabe to qualify under the GFA then the murder of this Garda and attempted murder of his colleague must have been sanctioned by the IRA council (which would have contravened their ceasefire)
Gerry Adams denied all knowledge of the murder at the time

Then a short while later SF campaigned for their early release under the GFA

They refused to apologise to Ann Mc Cabe or her family for Jerry's murder
They refused to apologise to Ben O Sullivan for his injuries

THEN they send Martin Ferris to Castlerea to pick up the lads upon their release

Double standards anyone????

remind me again who shot gary shehan. when you consider the number of gardai who died protecting some of the people of ireland as a percentage of all gardai and then look at the percentage of ira volunteers who died fighting for ireland as a percentage of all ira volunteers. then compere the two. thats right you had to be brave to join one of these groups.
also dont be mislead into thinking that 3 men in a cell beating up a man in handcuffs equates to bravery.

paul71

end a eknny wrote: »

remind me again who shot gary shehan. when you consider the number of gardai who died protecting some of the people of ireland as a percentage of all gardai and then look at the percentage of ira volunteers who died fighting for ireland as a percentage of all ira volunteers. then compere the two. thats right you had to be brave to join one of these groups.
also dont be mislead into thinking that 3 men in a cell beating up a man in handcuffs equates to bravery.

You were asked a direct question to back up a claim you made about Gardai killing 100 people, please answer the question with evidence as required by the standards of this forum.

angelfire9

end a eknny wrote: »

remind me again who shot gary shehan. when you consider the number of gardai who died protecting some of the people of ireland as a percentage of all gardai and then look at the percentage of ira volunteers who died fighting for ireland as a percentage of all ira volunteers. then compere the two. thats right you had to be brave to join one of these groups.
also dont be mislead into thinking that 3 men in a cell beating up a man in handcuffs equates to bravery.

What happened to Gary Sheehan....
The IRA were trapped by the Gardai and used Garda trainees & army personnel as human shields in an effort to escape, fire was exchanged between both parties but regardless of who fired the fatal shot the IRA were to blame for their actions prior to the fatal shooting

One garda to die at IRA hands is 1 too many
The IRA should have been supporting the Gardai as the legitimate security force of the state instead of killing them when the Gardai got in the way of their criminality

When you speak about IRA volunteers my opinion depends on the era, pre 1922 they were heroes, post 1960 they were murdering scum!

There is nothing brave about killing 3 year old children!

HellsAngel

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What Chucky said.....and add in the fact that they refuse to even call the state by name, referring to it as "the 26 counties"

They also demand of others what they refuse to provide themselves.

Respect works both ways, so if they refuse to respect my views and associate with thugs, why should I respect theirs?

26 counties ? I prefer rotten, corrupt, cronyist Gombeen republic myself.

paul71

R P McMurphy wrote: »

What are you implying, that the members of the security forces that engaged in facilitating/carrying out murder have the capacity to derail the peace process. The is a bit of a stretch.

No I am implying that there is an inherent injustice in prosecuting one group of criminals while absolving another. The consequence of injustice is a justifiable feeling of resentment and persecution, which the nationalist community felt in northern Ireland in the early seventies.

If we seek to persue members of the security forces for crimes while absolving terrorist groups for other crimes we risk alienating parts of the unionist community and they could well react violently, as parts of the nationalist community did to injustice in the 70s.

bmaxi

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The McCabe incident was the result of an operation, an unsanctioned one at that, going horribly wrong. Depending on who you ask they either shot the Gardaí straight off, or did so when they saw them lunge for their weapons. Did the vols set out deliberately to kill him that day? No, not at all, even the unjust special criminal court didn't find it was murder.

Martin Ferris collecting them had a lot to do with not wanting to be perceived as "leaving men behind" I think. They should have got out under the GFA imo.

Anyway, it doesn't seem to have hurt him in the election, how many first preferences did he get last time out? Around the 20% mark if I remember correctly.

Unsanctioned. A term used often by the IRA when they thought an action might not go down well with Joe Public. I don't believe it and this really is the nub of the matter. People don't trust SF because of their "association":rolleyes:, with the IRA and while the IRA, by whatever name they choose to call themselves this week, is in existence, that will not change.

Alopex

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The McCabe incident was the result of an operation, an unsanctioned one at that, going horribly wrong. Depending on who you ask they either shot the Gardaí straight off, or did so when they saw them lunge for their weapons. Did the vols set out deliberately to kill him that day? No, not at all, even the unjust special criminal court didn't find it was murder.

They set out deliberately to kill him when they got out of their car and fired an AK at him. If it weren't for intimidation they would have been done for murder.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The RUC and the Gardai are not comparable. The RUC were not much more than a Loyalist militia from the perspective of much of the Nationalist community and were an unacceptable part of the Unionist security apparatus that failed to protect the Nationalist community when they went on their civil rights marches.

That's why they were disbanded and replaced with a something resembling a civilian police police.

Get over it.

Such an illogical post. The psni is 60-70% former RUC members. IF you hated the RUC so much how can you support the psni?