What Happens If Prosecuting Garda Doesn't Turn Up in Court...

Sarah316

Hi All,

I'm due in court in the next couple of days,

when i was in the police station the guard who arrested me said they would ring me a couple of days prior to the court date to see how i wanted to proceed (go ahead on the day or adjourn for legal aid)...

they said they don't usually go to the first date but if i wanted to go ahead on the first day they would come to court for me....

i plan to go ahead on the day and hope to get it over and done with in one day,the guard still hasn't contacted me in relation to what i wanted to do...

my question is what would happens if they don't turn up?

will it be adjourned to a later date?

should i try contacting them to tell them i want to proceed on the first day?

any information would be great!

coylemj

Sarah316 wrote: »

they said they don't usually go to the first date but if i wanted to go ahead on the first day they would come to court for me....

I think you may have misinterpreted what he said. Regardless of whether the case is going ahead or not, the Garda has to turn up to represent the prosecution, even if it's only to ask for or agree to an adjournment.

If the Garda is all for an adjournment, it's probably because he expects you to want to get your legal representation sorted out and that you will want the case put back for a week or so in order to consult with your solicitor. In that case the Garda will be holding off asking witnesses to turn up so you will need to tell him that you want the case to go ahead. Otherwise he can tell the judge that he was expecting the case to be adjourned and has not asked any witnesses to turn up in which case the judge will probably grant him an adjournment.

So if he has given you a signal that he wants an adjournment but you are prepared to go ahead, you need to inform him of this fact. If you leave it too late he might still come into court and say that some witnesses couldn't make it because you didn't give him enough notice so he could still end up asking for an adjournment.

Sarah316

so a garda who has no prior interaction with me or the case can be present on their behalf?

it doesn't have to be the prosecuting guards?

coylemj

Sarah316 wrote: »

so a garda who has no prior interaction with me or the case can be present on their behalf?

it doesn't have to be the prosecuting guards?

Yes, it's possible (and it happens a lot) that a Garda who had nothing to do with the case can show up, explain that the original Garda is sick/injured/on honeymoon and ask for an adjournment and provided the other party (that's you) has been informed that the adjournment will be sought, the judge will normally grant the adjournment.

Sarah316

is it always the case that if the arresting guard doesn't attend that its asked for an adjournment?

seems slightly unfair i guess,

so who would stand for me in regards to my full co-operation,polite behavior,attending voluntarily etc?

would the arresting officer have written a report or passed on that information to the guard who is attending the court?

bath handle

It appears from your o/p that the prosecuting guard has offered to appear if you let him know in advance that you will be pleading guilty. In some Districts a not guilty plea Automatically means an adjournment.

Sarah316

Basically yes,she just said she would go to court for me in the first date if i wanted to go that route...

and the fact i won't be applying for legal aid means theres a higher chance of it being over and don't with there and then,so id be happy if they did turn up,rather than having it on my mind for another couple of months...


i take it the more serious the crime the less chance of it being struck out if the guard doesn't appear?

coylemj

Sarah316 wrote: »

Basically yes,she just said she would go to court for me in the first date if i wanted to go that route...

and the fact i won't be applying for legal aid means theres a higher chance of it being over and don't with there and then,so id be happy if they did turn up,rather than having it on my mind for another couple of months...

I think you're saying that the prosecuting Garda is prepared to appear if she thinks you are going to plead guilty but what puzzles me is why she would not attend, even if you need an adjournment. Has she said that she'd prefer not be there because she's going on holidays or why is she not definitely attending?

Can you also say if the prosecution case would involve witnesses (excluding the prosecuting Garda) assuming you pleaded not guitly?

Sarah316 wrote: »

i take it the more serious the crime the less chance of it being struck out if the guard doesn't appear?

Generally yes, the judge will be reluctant to strike out for a serious charge but even if he does, the case can be struck out 'with liberty to re-enter' which would allow the Garda to restart the case by summonsing you in the future though that rarely happens with minor cases like public order offences where there was no assault, theft or damage to property.

Sarah316

well yes,i would assume so,

at very least CCTV footage of the incidents provided i pleaded not guilty,which would be suicidal considering my statements to the garda etc....

the case is regarding theft from my employer hence why i doubt he'd strike it out,though i did give back what i took.

what the garda basically said word for word is "i don't usually attend the first date,but if you'd like me to stand for you i'll go,i'll ring you a few days before the court date and see what you want to do"

i haven't any experience in these situations so I'm not sure how there usually dealt with.

i'd assume most people would apply for legal aid,but i did mention before to them (prosecuting guards) that i would probably just go ahead with it by myself to get it over and done with.

coylemj

If this will be your first conviction and you plead guilty and the amount of money (or the value of the property) is relatively small then you will probably get away with a fine or the Probation Act.

From what you're saying you threw your hands up and admitted your guilt at an early stage and you handed back the stolen goods which will also help but at the end of the day you may still be better off with a solicitor.

If you're entitled to free legal aid and the judge is prepared to appoint a solicitor to your case, I'd ask for an adjournment for a week and let the solicitor do the talking, that is almost always the best strategy.

bath handle

It may be possible to get a legal aid solicitor in advance. Many of them will give a free consultation in advance of making the application. If a plea is accepted it might be dealt with on the first day.
The guard might only have one case in on the day and won't want go in just for an adjournment. the court presenter can easily handle an adjournment.

Sarah316

Thanks for the advice,really appreciate it.

it will be my first offence,the value of everything was about E1300,which i gave back,still finding it quite surreal that i managed to end up in this position,i look back and think what the hell was i doing,but here i am so i'll go through with it.

the idea of getting it adjourned just so i can have a solicitor speak on my behalf isn't appealing to me for a number of reasons,

1) i'd like to get it over with ASAP and get on with my life,its been on my mind far too much and effecting other aspects of my life.

2) i think a solicitor would be just mentioning a number of mitigation factors on my behalf,which after constant reading of some similar cases etc,i think I'm capable of doing myself,and hope it would mean more coming from myself then a solicitor.

3) i'd like to think that coming from myself it would mean more and showing the judge i want to move on with my life,whilst also not charging the state for a solicitor to represent me.


i would be hopeful of getting the probation act seen as its my first offence and a number of truthful mitigation factors.

this may be a shot in the dark,but from your experience with such matters,how much of a fine/charity donation am i looking at?

thanks again by the way!

MagicSean

Sarah316 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice,really appreciate it.

it will be my first offence,the value of everything was about E1300,which i gave back,still finding it quite surreal that i managed to end up in this position,i look back and think what the hell was i doing,but here i am so i'll go through with it.

the idea of getting it adjourned just so i can have a solicitor speak on my behalf isn't appealing to me for a number of reasons,

1) i'd like to get it over with ASAP and get on with my life,its been on my mind far too much and effecting other aspects of my life.

2) i think a solicitor would be just mentioning a number of mitigation factors on my behalf,which after constant reading of some similar cases etc,i think I'm capable of doing myself,and hope it would mean more coming from myself then a solicitor.

3) i'd like to think that coming from myself it would mean more and showing the judge i want to move on with my life,whilst also not charging the state for a solicitor to represent me.


i would be hopeful of getting the probation act seen as its my first offence and a number of truthful mitigation factors.

this may be a shot in the dark,but from your experience with such matters,how much of a fine/charity donation am i looking at?

thanks again by the way!

You can still get it over with on the same day. Tell the judge you would like legal aid and to put the case back to second calling. Consult with a solicitor and tell him you wish to plead guilty and for him to do the mitigation. Legal aid was meant for people in your position.

EDIT: If you admitted the offence I would have thought you'd be eligible for an adult caution. Have your solicitor discuss that with the Garda too.

Sarah316

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

You can still get it over with on the same day. Tell the judge you would like legal aid and to put the case back to second calling. Consult with a solicitor and tell him you wish to plead guilty and for him to do the mitigation. Legal aid was meant for people in your position.

EDIT: If you admitted the offence I would have thought you'd be eligible for an adult caution. Have your solicitor discuss that with the Garda too.

I read that because the theft was over E1'000 means that the adult caution option was unavailable,although i do remember one of the guards saying maybe the DPP could request for an adult caution to be issued...

is mitigation that daunting?

i don't have a major fear of speaking in public,i have read up quite a bit on mitigating factors,so i guess I'm confident enough that i know what i'll be saying,i completely understand that a solicitor would have way more experience and know how of the courts etc i guess i just don't wanna be still in this position in a years time due to it being adjourned date after date...

bath handle

The most important thing about a mitigation plea is knowing the judge. They all vary and there will be factors they focus on more than others. Many do not like dealing with self represented defendants. Many others would be reluctant to convict of an offence such as yours without you having had legal advice. A probation report might well be ordered, which would m
ean an adjournment anyway.

Sarah316

is there any of way of knowing in advance of who the judge will be on the day?

i thought i read a form of probation that means it can be issued without the aid of a probation report? i may be wrong...and it may be only for certain circumstances...

apologies if I'm coming off as arrogant by trying to represent myself,its anything but,its more an issue of getting it over and done with ASAP.

bath handle

There is no way of knowing for sure whick judge will be sitting. It is reasonably predictable outside Dublin.
The probation at can be applied without a report.
Some judges will order a probation report before considering sentence. The sentence need not involve the probation act at all. A probation report is prepared by a probation officer who interviews the defendant about their life and prospects and recommends a course of action to the court.
Solicitor s familiar with a particular judge know how far to go in suggesting leniency.

Sarah316

thank you all for the information!

really helpful!

a quick question,when giving mitigation,should i suggest that I'm willing to make a charitable donation?

or should that be suggested by the judge hearing my case!

FreudianSlippers

I think it's best if you just indicate to the court that you're "in funds", but I'm sure others would disagree with that and advise not beating around the bush.

Sarah316

Haha,a simple,'I'm willing to make a donation to charity' would suffice?

Sarah316

i visited the Garda Station were i was arrested previously in search of the prosecuting guards to tell them that i'd like to go ahead on the day etc...

unfortunately they were both off for a couple of days and aren't back in until tomorrow...

my question is...

how much notice would a guard need to receive in order to turn up in court?

i assume they have a weekly schedule etc,so would it be possible for her to turn up at short notice?...

bath handle

Be very careful.some judges do not go in for the charitable donation route at all. Others only for very minor offences e.g. Public order.suggesting it at the wrong time could enrage a judge and make things worse. Stealing from an employer is regarded as a serious offence and a judge will take persuasion not to impose a custodial sentence, let alone consider the poor box.

FreudianSlippers

bath handle wrote: »

Be very careful.some judges do not go in for the charitable donation route at all. Others only for very minor offences e.g. Public order.suggesting it at the wrong time could enrage a judge and make things worse. Stealing from an employer is regarded as a serious offence and a judge will take persuasion not to impose a custodial sentence, let alone consider the poor box.

Exactly, you don't want to tell the Judge what you think the punishment would be. Informing the Court that you have the ability to pay should the Judge feel that is an appropriate solution is another story.

You do not want to appear to be lessening the crime or not showing the Court that you understand what you did was wrong.

Sarah316

bath handle wrote: »

Be very careful.some judges do not go in for the charitable donation route at all. Others only for very minor offences e.g. Public order.suggesting it at the wrong time could enrage a judge and make things worse. Stealing from an employer is regarded as a serious offence and a judge will take persuasion not to impose a custodial sentence, let alone consider the poor box.

Due to worry i've read up countless employer theft cases in ireland over the last couple of years,all of which involved a lot more value than mine,and thankfully for me hardly any of them ended in a custodial sentence

i think a manager from a post office who defrauded about 50K from the company got a custodial sentence...

i'll take your advice on board definitely,i understand it would look like I'm trying to pay my way out of the crime etc..

i notice the way these cases usually go comes down to is if compensation has been paid...

Jo King

One of the problems with doing your own mitigation plea is that on the one hand you need to look contrite and humble and on the other hand you have to be assertive to get all of the facts which are in your favour mentioned. Sometimes judges in the District Court have to be interrupted when they are jumping ahead too quickly. Also if the court list is lengthy taking too long over the plea can backfire. A judge whom I met socially a few years ago told me that the sentence goes up with the length of the plea.

coylemj

Jo King wrote: »

One of the problems with doing your own mitigation plea is that on the one hand you need to look contrite and humble and on the other hand you have to be assertive to get all of the facts which are in your favour mentioned.

Excellent point and a good illustration of the conflict that can arise when you defend yourself. Some things are better said when the words come out of your solicitor's mouth and not yours.

Sarah316

thanks for the help guys

"A judge whom I met socially a few years ago told me that the sentence goes up with the length of the plea."

thats a bit harsh isn't it!

"on the one hand you need to look contrite and humble and on the other hand you have to be assertive to get all of the facts which are in your favor mentioned"

this is how i plan to defend myself...

i plan to write out and read over my plea a few times before i attend,just so I'm a little less nervous and not trying to come up with things off the cuff, without boring the judge to sleep!

isn't there a duty courts solicitor that i can talk to prior to my case?

Jo King

Sarah316 wrote: »

thanks for the help guys

"A judge whom I met socially a few years ago told me that the sentence goes up with the length of the plea."

thats a bit harsh isn't it!

Maybe. The courts can be unforgiving places.

Sarah316 wrote: »

this is how i plan to defend myself...

i plan to write out and read over my plea a few times before i attend,just so I'm a little less nervous and not trying to come up with things off the cuff, without boring the judge to sleep!

Worst thing you can do. You have no idea how much time you will have. You may well be interrupted by the judge with questions. You may have to question the guard.

Sarah316 wrote: »

isn't there a duty courts solicitor that i can talk to prior to my case?

No, there is no such thing as a duty courts solicitor. You can go and talk to legal aid solicitors by appointment beforehand. Go to the court you are summoned to a few days beforehand. Find who the judges pet solicitor is. Approach that solicitor and tell them your story. They will get you legal aid and make the plea.

Sarah316

a previous poster on here said there is no way of finding out who the judge will be on the day,so what chance is there of finding who their pet solicitor is?

so a legal aid solicitor can attend with me on the first date before I'm granted legal aid and then represent me on the same (first) date?

coylemj

Sarah316 wrote: »

i plan to write out and read over my plea a few times before i attend,just so I'm a little less nervous and not trying to come up with things off the cuff, without boring the judge to sleep!

Even if you're a professional actor you'll probably blow it. Only a solicitor with experience of appearing in front of that judge will be able to read the body language and know when it's time to wrap up. You will be so wound up with your prepared script that you won't detect the signals and there's a real danger that you'll cross the line and get the judges blood pressure up.

I've deliberately held off telling you this but there is a saying in the courts that 'a person who represents himself has a fool for a client' and it's not just lawyers who say this get to themselves business, most Gardai and court staff would agree with it as well.

coylemj

Sarah316 wrote: »

a previous poster on here said there is no way of finding out who the judge will be on the day,so what chance is there of finding who their pet solicitor is?

That's just not true (that judges have pet solicitors), most solicitors are clever enough to stay on the right side of the judge but it doesn't help either the judge or any particular solicitor if they are seen to be too close.

Sarah316 wrote: »

so a legal aid solicitor can attend with me on the first date before I'm granted legal aid and then represent me on the same (first) date?

The solicitor has to be assigned to you by the judge. You can either take pot luck and let the judge assign one from the pool of solicitors sitting in front of him, or you can size up the solicitors yourself, then go up to one whose skills you think are appropriate to your situation (good pleading), ask him/her if they are available for free legal aid and if they are, get their name and when the judge says you can have free legal aid, you say 'I'd like Miss Jones please'.