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What Happens If Prosecuting Garda Doesn't Turn Up in Court...

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    #32
    Jo King
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Jo King


    Sarah316 wrote: »
    a previous poster on here said there is no way of finding out who the judge will be on the day,so what chance is there of finding who their pet solicitor is?

    so a legal aid solicitor can attend with me on the first date before I'm granted legal aid and then represent me on the same (first) date?

    There is never a guarantee that the judge who is in a court today will be there tomorrow, but mostly the same judges are in the same court. In Dublin judges are moved every few months. They sometimes spend a day back in a court they were in weeks before when something was left over.

    A legal aid solicitor can attend with you before you are granted legal aid and will make the application for legal aid. It happens quite a lot with habitual criminals. They contact their regular solicitor when they get a summons and the solicitor applies for legal aid on the first day in court.


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    #33
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    CoyleMj - i'd agree with that saying if it was a highly technical case,I'm pleading guilty,will give the reason why i committed the crime,I'm sorry for what i did,and a couple of reasons why i'd hope to be given a chance,forgive me if I'm being ignorant but it doesn't seem like rocket science,by saying this I'm in no way undermining the work lawyers do,i just think in this case its not something that i wouldn't be terrified/incapable of doing myself,and if it saves me another couple of months of worrying what punishment I'm going to get then it is something I'm willing to do myself! it was actually one of the guards that told me its not that daunting and sometimes solicitors can try and push back dates etc in order to get more pay!

    Jo King - so for example if i attend court no.6 tomorrow,it will more than likely be the same judge there on the day i attend?


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    #34
    Jo King
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Jo King


    Most likely. You can always ask one of the solicitors there if the same judge is always there.

    It is not what is said so much as how it is said which is important. Go in and watch what happens. You will find it is very fast.


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    #35
    jblack
    Registered Users Posts: 476 ✭✭jblack


    coylemj wrote: »
    Even if you're a professional actor you'll probably blow it. Only a solicitor with experience of appearing in front of that judge will be able to read the body language and know when it's time to wrap up. You will be so wound up with your prepared script that you won't detect the signals and there's a real danger that you'll cross the line and get the judges blood pressure up.

    I've deliberately held off telling you this but there is a saying in the courts that 'a person who represents himself has a fool for a client' and it's not just lawyers who say this get to themselves business, most Gardai and court staff would agree with it as well.

    Above = absolutely

    OP your concern was court reporters and publicity and yet you are going to represent yourself armed only with advice from boards and a non-legally trained reading of case-law..

    I can picture a sleepy reporter waking to uncomfortable shifting in seats as the judge's blood pressure rises.


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    #36
    Typer Monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭Typer Monkey


    To explain what the prosecuting Garda meant by not being there on the first day;
    There is a system in place in the district court whereby a sergeant gives evidence of your arrest, charge and caution by way of documentation to the judge. The sergeant will do this on behalf of all the prosecuting gardai due before the court that day for a first appearance. This does away with the need to have the 20-30 gardai sitting in the court room.

    What the Garda was saying to you was that she would not normally be there on the first day as the court sergeant would be acting on her behalf. However, if you intend pleading guilty on the first day she will attend, I assume in order to speak on your behalf in relation to your co-operation,good behaviour since etc


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    #37
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    Correct me if I'm wrong please,but would this not be the way things proceed...

    1) my case is called and i confirm my details etc...?

    2) a brief description of why I'm before the court will be read out?

    3) judge asks how i plead?

    4) judge asks me would i like legal aid?

    5) i explain I'm sorry for what i done,why i did it,and give a couple of mitigating factors,ask for a chance and answer any questions the judge may have?

    6) Judge makes a decision to adjourn for pre-sentencing report etc or give sentencing there and then?


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    #38
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    Typer Monkey wrote: »
    To explain what the prosecuting Garda meant by not being there on the first day;
    There is a system in place in the district court whereby a sergeant gives evidence of your arrest, charge and caution by way of documentation to the judge. The sergeant will do this on behalf of all the prosecuting gardai due before the court that day for a first appearance. This does away with the need to have the 20-30 gardai sitting in the court room.

    What the Garda was saying to you was that she would not normally be there on the first day as the court sergeant would be acting on her behalf. However, if you intend pleading guilty on the first day she will attend, I assume in order to speak on your behalf in relation to your co-operation,good behaviour since etc

    i think this is exactly what she meant....

    is the sergeant who attends the court a sergeant from the Garda station i was arrested in?


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    #39
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    I think I will judge it on the day (providing I'm not the first case called)...

    i will study what other lawyers are doing and the humour of the judge...

    if I feel I'm not up to the task,i will apply for legal aid...

    if I think I can go ahead and represent myself I will...


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    #40
    Typer Monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭Typer Monkey


    Sarah316 wrote: »
    i think this is exactly what she meant....

    is the sergeant who attends the court a sergeant from the Garda station i was arrested in?

    No the sergeant who will be in court is permanently based there. The gardai from various stations submit paperwork relating to their case and the one sergeant presents all of the relevant cases before the court each day


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    #41
    Jo King
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Jo King


    Sarah316 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong please,but would this not be the way things proceed...

    1) my case is called and i confirm my details etc...?

    No the case is just called. You just identify yourself
    Sarah316 wrote: »

    2) a brief description of why I'm before the court will be read out?
    No. Judge will ask whats to happen.
    Sarah316 wrote: »
    3) judge asks how i plead?
    Judge will probably want to know if you have a solicitor and if you have taken legal advice.
    Sarah316 wrote: »
    4) judge asks me would i like legal aid?
    The judge might ask about your circumstances. Most will be reluctant to proceed until you have taken legal advice.
    Sarah316 wrote: »
    5) i explain I'm sorry for what i done,why i did it,and give a couple of mitigating factors,ask for a chance and answer any questions the judge may have?

    If it is allowed get that far. If the judge has to ask questions, it is wasting time and the judge may well get annoyed. Not a good thing. Also the guard may have to be prompted. This may have to be done by butting in.
    Sarah316 wrote: »
    6) Judge makes a decision to adjourn for pre-sentencing report etc or give sentencing there and then?
    Theoretically possible, but unlikely first day in without a solicitor.


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    #42
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    i've read on another thread here that it may be possible to approach a solicitor who is currently in the court and ask them to defend me there and then and they may not charge as much as usual because they're already in the court rather than having to turn up for me especially etc?

    how likely is that?

    and how would i go about doing that without making a nuisance in the courtroom?


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    #43
    Jo King
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Jo King


    You should go to the court a few days beforehand and spot the busy legal aid solicitors. They will take your case without payment if they think you will qualify for legal aid. There are numerous such solicitors in Dublin.


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    #44
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    how does one identify a legal aid solicitor?


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    #45
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,435 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    By one of two methods:

    1. Career criminals when asked if they want free legal aid reply saying 'I want Mr. so and so'. He or she is usually a good solicitor, otherwise they'd ask for someone else. There was one spectacularly successful solicitor many years ago down in the Bridewell courts whom everyone asked for, he is now a Circuit Court Judge.

    2. Solicitors who do nothing but legal aid will sit there waiting for cases to be assigned in a round robin way by the judge, you're taking pot luck with this method of selection, you could get a dud.

    A solicitor who is not doing legal aid will usually ask the clerk to pull his client to the top of the list because he'll claim he's in some other court the same day, then as soon as his client is dealt with he'll clear off, the guys who hang around all day are legal aid solicitors.


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    #46
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    You can still get it over with on the same day. Tell the judge you would like legal aid and to put the case back to second calling. Consult with a solicitor and tell him you wish to plead guilty and for him to do the mitigation. Legal aid was meant for people in your position.

    How often/likely is this to happen?

    i think of all options this would be the preferred option...


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    #47
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    coylemj wrote: »
    By one of two methods:

    1. Career criminals when asked if they want free legal aid reply saying 'I want Mr. so and so'. He or she is usually a good solicitor, otherwise they'd ask for someone else. There was one spectacularly successful solicitor many years ago down in the Bridewell courts whom everyone asked for, he is now a Circuit Court Judge.

    2. Solicitors who do nothing but legal aid will sit there waiting for cases to be assigned in a round robin way by the judge, you're taking pot luck with this method of selection, you could get a dud.

    A solicitor who is not doing legal aid will usually ask the clerk to pull his client to the top of the list because he'll claim he's in some other court the same day, then as soon as his client is dealt with he'll clear off, the guys who hang around all day are legal aid solicitors.

    and is it not considered rude to shuffle about to approach them and then discussing my case with them in the court etc?


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    #48
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,435 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Sarah316 wrote: »
    and is it not considered rude to shuffle about to approach them and then discussing my case with them in the court etc?

    Absolutely not, they are delighted to get a tap on the shoulder from a potential client.


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    #49
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    coylemj wrote: »
    Absolutely not, they are delighted to get a tap on the shoulder from a potential client.

    Haha!...id imagine so!....i meant does the judge not frown upon people moving about and talking during cases going on? or would i be able to approach them before court starts?

    sorry! i should have been more clearer with my previous post!


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    #50
    Jo King
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Jo King


    If the judge knows the solicitor by name it is 99% likely the solicitor is a legal aid solicitor. If you are in court on a day before your case is due you will quickly spot that some solicitors are very busy with a number of cases. They are invariably legal aid. Apart from the traffic courts, very few criminal cases are paid for privately.


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    #51
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    so do i genuinely just get out of my seat,lets say when a previous case is over,and approach a legal aid solicitor and ask him to represent me today?


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    #52
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,435 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Sarah316 wrote: »
    so do i genuinely just get out of my seat,lets say when a previous case is over,and approach a legal aid solicitor and ask him to represent me today?

    Your best bet would be to turn up 15 minutes or so before the court is due to sit, the solicitors will all be there and you can talk freely until the judge arrives.

    It can be difficult to get a word with a solicitor while the court is sitting though all you really need is a few seconds (while the judge is talking to the clerk for example) to whisper to your selected solicitor that you will be applying for free legal aid and could you have a word outside (in the corridor).

    If your solicitor arrives late so you can't catch him before the court sits, just bear in mind that most of them (the busy ones at least) are in and out of the courtroom all day to talk to their clients outside the courtroom to discuss tactics, you can always try to catch one when he's on the way in or out.


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    #53
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    coylemj wrote: »
    Your best bet would be to turn up 15 minutes or so before the court is due to sit, the solicitors will all be there and you can talk freely until the judge arrives.

    It can be difficult to get a word with a solicitor while the court is sitting though all you really need is a few seconds (while the judge is talking to the clerk for example) to whisper to your selected solicitor that you will be applying for free legal aid and could you have a word outside (in the corridor).

    thank you very much,greatly appreciated....

    do the courts open at 10 A.M?

    and then sittings start at 10:30?

    so that give me a half hour to find someone and tell them the facts of the case etc

    it will basically just be a 'Hit N Hope' type of selection i assume yes?


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    #54
    Jo King
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭Jo King


    Sarah316 wrote: »
    so do i genuinely just get out of my seat,lets say when a previous case is over,and approach a legal aid solicitor and ask him to represent me today?

    Ask a solicitor if he does legal aid. When he says yes, say you need a solicitor.
    Other option, send a pm for names.


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    #55
    nuac
    Registered Users Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    1. Practice varies in each District Court re pleas, adjournments etc.

    2. Get yourself a solicitor practising in that court - don't be trying to guess what might happen.

    3. Some Gardai are genuinely very helpful - some just want to get the defendant to plead.


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    #56
    dynamokid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭dynamokid


    i would go to the day and if he does not show up and you have not been called, then call the station where he works after and it should be dropped out


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    #57
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,435 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    dynamokid wrote: »
    i would go to the day and if he does not show up and you have not been called, then call the station where he works after and it should be dropped out

    Now I could be wrong but it appears to me that you read the first post and then chipped in your response. Your post was #56 in this thread, there's more to the discussion than the first post, that's why it's called a 'thread'.

    As this was your first ever post in boards.ie can I suggest that in future you read more of the thread before contributing.


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    #58
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    Why does she need a solicitor if she is pleading guilty in the first place and it seems to me to be a straight out open and shut case?

    Maybe she needs the solicitor to prove to the judge she is taking things serioulsy or perhaps the solicitor can haggle for a lesser charge fine etc???


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    #59
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    after taking peoples advice on here i decided to get a solicitor....


    who in turn...decided to get the case adjourned for 4 weeks!


    not exactly what i wanted but if it stops me from getting a criminal record i'll be happy!


    thanks again folks!


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    #60
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    also!...my first experience in an irish court was quite weird!...wasnt what i was expecting at all!


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    #61
    Sarah316
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Sarah316


    after talking to my solicitor he told me there isn't a chance in hell i'll get probation...so brings me to my next question....is a criminal record the end of the world??


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