AH and its constant Women Bashing

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Unfortunately SugarHigh has made some points, imo at least. Even if some posters have the opinions of a neanderthal they are still entitled to their opinions.
The problem is when they feel the need to express those same opinions over and over again in any thread that mentions female in the title or opening post.
And I suppose it is then up to the Mods to use their discretion as to what is derailing the thread or even just giving an overall negative 'vibe' to the forum and they can then act accordingly and if it means censoring some posts then so be it

I think the Mods are doing a pretty good job but a lot of posters are just immature spas quite simply. And a lot are a little oversensitive also. It's a a balancing act trying to please everyone without overcensoring and forum but whilst I'd like to see an end to a lot of the negativity, I'd hate to see AH lose it's lightheartedness

Eve_Dublin

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

This is my POV. Dudess has put it better than I could.

However the people who seemed unhappy about it on various AH threads are not voicing up here, so I'll let it go. Won't mention it again

Wibbs wrote: »

No I say keep mentioning it L. It's a valid kickoff to a debate. Unfortunately if you're looking for backup you may find it thin on the ground. Too many moan, not enough do.

BTW this thread came up before and there were other "LeeHoffmanns" and again their support didn't materialise. Which is a pity. Very deja vu

I'm probably one of the posters who complains the most on those threads and I'm sorry for not posting on here sooner. I got angry earlier on that particular thread and thought I shouldn't post anything until I calmed down a bit. I've already stated my feelings on that thread in one particular post near the end and honestly, I don't want to get into it again. I can quote it here if you like. That's how I feel. I appreciate the moderating from Dr B. on that thread and I thanked him for it. I've also complained directly to moderators in the past but never received any response. I know you guys are busy but accusations that I've done nothing are wrong.

I'm giving AH a break for a few months just cos I don't have the temperament to handle it and not take comments to heart. I'm too hot-headed.

Thanks for all the modding...it's a fun forum until the Feminazi and jealousy accusations are pulled out. See ye soon.

gargleblaster

stovelid wrote: »

You're summarily dismissing it out of hand with a sweeping comment.

I should stress that even though I'm disagreeing with you on some points, I'm not denying that there is misogyny in forums but I'm happy enough to see it dealt with like any other nasty comment about any other group rather than foregrounding one group over another.

It's an opinion I disagree with, and I was asking to find out if there was a consensus regarding it. That is all.

I'm not sure what you expect really, for me to write a paragraph about why I disagree? Is it not enough that there have been two opposing viewpoints from moderators, and that I simply wish to know which is the case?

As for how it could 'foreground' any other group, I have no idea how that could happen. Could you give me an example? Are there racist comments that are allowed to stand, and for this reason you perceive that any attempt to get sexist comments removed would be asking for preferential treatment?

Nodin wrote: »

That wasn't hostile. What will get you a hostile reaction is claiming persecution/martyrdom when you don't get your own way

If you have a problem with a post, you report it. Sometimes people will argee with you and remove it, sometimes people won't. Bear in mind that just because you consider something offensive, that doesn't mean anybody else does, should, or is obligated to remove somebody elses remark because of you.

We'll have to agree to disagree about hostility. As for your personal knowledge of the OP, that I consider neither here nor there. The issue stands on its own, regardless of any article that is used to back it up.

Furthermore, words like "persecution" and "martyrdom" betray your own hostility, IMO.

As for me personally, I fail to see why you are bringing that up. I suppose you missed it, but one issue that caused me to think this thread might be helpful (and not ridiculous) is that a poster referred to women as "gash"es, and despite my alerting, the comment remained. No mod warning, no edited post, just gone. Perhaps the user deleted it themselves. However the fact that it was allowed to stand after being alerted on made me think that something should be said.

I would like to know the moderators' thoughts on whether referring to women as "gash"es is acceptable and not sexist in AH.

So yes, I don't expect that anyone will remove anything that strikes me as sexist simply because I perceive it to be so.

However, it is not unreasonable at all to ask for a clarification about the issue. That is what I understood this kind of thread was meant for. That being the case, I fail to see how you lecturing me about the way alerts work (newsflash: I do understand this already, thank you though) is something you thought might be helpful.

WindSock

So is it right that reasonable posters are dropping out of the forum because the place is over run with goons?

Is it fair to expect just a handful of posters to do a battle in every single thread because the goons and haters think they should have the run of the forum?


I'm not surprised Eve is fatigued, but it is a shame that she is. And needs time out.

Nodin

gargleblaster wrote: »

The issue stands on its own, regardless of any article that is used to back it up. .

It doesn't, hence the false linkage.

gargleblaster wrote: »

Furthermore, words like "persecution" and "martyrdom" betray your own hostility, IMO. .

Actually they describe fairly much a vocal subset of posters betimes on a number of issues.

gargleblaster wrote: »

As for me personally, I fail to see why you are bringing that up. I suppose you missed it, but one issue that caused me to think this thread might be helpful (and not ridiculous) is that a poster referred to women as "gash"es, and despite my alerting, the comment remained. No mod warning, no edited post, just gone. Perhaps the user deleted it themselves. However the fact that it was allowed to stand after being alerted on made me think that something should be said. .

I parse that out as meaning an offending post was removed in its entirety. Am I correct?

Nodin

WindSock wrote: »

So is it right that reasonable posters are dropping out of the forum because the place is over run with goons?

.

Is it right that the drop out of one or a few posters is somehow used as an indication of "OMG the Forum is destroyed/sexist/racist" ?

gargleblaster

Nodin wrote: »

I parse that out as meaning an offending post was removed in its entirety. Am I correct?

I have no idea. The poster may have deleted it. This is the main reason I'm even bothering with this thread - curiosity about whether or not that is considered acceptable and not sexist, otherwise I wouldn't even have bothered with this thread for what should be very obvious reasons.


Also, I get that you don't think there's any more sexism in AH than racism or any other type of nastiness. Obviously other people think otherwise. Just because you think that discussion of the article in the OP is the only reason for this thread, that does not make it so. IMO the article was used as a springboard to discuss an issue which while invisible/nonexistent to some, that is obviously not the case for others.

SugarHigh

WindSock wrote: »

So is it right that reasonable posters are dropping out of the forum because the place is over run with goons?

Is it fair to expect just a handful of posters to do a battle in every single thread because the goons and haters think they should have the run of the forum?


I'm not surprised Eve is fatigued, but it is a shame that she is. And needs time out.

They don't have to do battle in these threads. The threads are easy to spot and easy to avoid. I'm an immigrant so I simply avoid any thread on boards relating to immigration because I can't be bothered arguing against the irrational claims of over indulgent social welfare payments.
I don't think these opinions should be banned unless it's in a forum with a High set standard of discussion.
Have you started to give a sh1t again?

WindSock

Nodin wrote: »

Is it right that the drop out of one or a few posters is somehow used as an indication of "OMG the Forum is destroyed/sexist/racist" ?

It's an indication, nonetheless when people don't choose to engage anymore from fatigue.

SugarHigh

Nodin wrote: »

Is it right that the drop out of one or a few posters is somehow used as an indication of "OMG the Forum is destroyed/sexist/racist" ?

I agree that augment made very little sense. Everyone has said the problem is less now then ever so someone dropping out who has been a regular for months isn't indicitive of anything to do with the forum. People get fed up of forums all the time and claim they are leaving. A lot return almost straight away, they just enjoyed the exit.

WindSock

I got the impression that poster is leaving due to not being ****ed with it at the moment.

TheZohanS

WindSock wrote: »

It's an indication, nonetheless when people don't choose to engage anymore from fatigue.

After Hours is, at the best of times, very tiring. Between trolls and absolutely moronic posts it can put years on you. Best thing is to either walk away from a while, join in, or not take it so seriously. As soon as the mods have one batch of posters whipped into shape a new batch come along. They're like feckin' gremlins.

WindSock

And what is wrong then with mods clamping down on trolling posts then?

I, personally amnt asking for more censorship in AH either.

But it is good to see some rules enforced to blatentists from time to time.

TheZohanS

WindSock wrote: »

And what is wrong then with mods clamping down on trolling posts then?

I, personally amnt asking for more censorship in AH either.

But it is good to see some rules enforced to blatentists from time to time.

They have. The original complaint is from a poster who starts off by saying:

Haven't been on boards for while but...

Well if you're not around how the hell do you know what's going on in a forum, a couple of threads =/= all of AH.

hondasam

TheZohan wrote: »

After Hours is, at the best of times, very tiring. Between trolls and absolutely moronic posts it can put years on you. Best thing is to either walk away from a while, join in, or not take it so seriously. As soon as the mods have one batch of posters whipped into shape a new batch come along. They're like feckin' gremlins.

AH is not for the sensitive posters but I think the regulars look out for the women. I would like to see all these women who are complaining.
Don't see the problem myself but I can take a laugh usually.

donfers

WindSock wrote: »

So is it right that reasonable posters are dropping out of the forum because the place is over run with goons?

Is it fair to expect just a handful of posters to do a battle in every single thread because the goons and haters think they should have the run of the forum?


I'm not surprised Eve is fatigued, but it is a shame that she is. And needs time out.

fatigued? crikey you make it sound like she's a latter-day Emmeline Pankhurst when in reality all she is doing is getting wound up by childish jibes on a forum renowned for childish jibes

in that thread i recall she came on there complaining about guys who complain about feminazi's. and made the point again and again and again that no women were complaining, she made about 15 posts essentially complaining that the feminazi tag was unfair because none of the ladies were complaining about the hunky dory ads, this ignored a few points

1) there were ladies complaining about the hunky dory ads

2) yes a few guys made sarcastic comments but nothing too heavy, only 1 guy used the term feminazi and his post was deleted only for her to highlight it by quoting it

3) ironically she complained that these guys were giving threads a negative vibe all the time unaware that her multiple posts in the thread complaining about guys complaining was giving the thread a negative vibe

so basically you have to decide who AH is for, if you want to tone it down, dilute it's irreverent edge, police it according to the sensitivities of people i regard as hypersensitive then go ahead, to be honest i think it's already down that road to an extent and of course when you do go down that "please the whingers/report button addicts" road you get a backlash of more immature mindless stuff as a reaction to that so you get the two extremes of the "let's not offend anybody, tiptoe around the forum/walk on eggshells" approach and the trolling stuff that feeds on that mindset

I think the AH mods are making a bit of a mess of this to be honest and they really don't know who the forum is for, by trying to please everybody they are pleasing nobody

they are trying to have their cake and eat it, trying to stay edgy and irreverent but at the same time wanting to appear to be down with the offense-chasers and right-on in terms of fighting these all-powerful internet evil forces that we are hearing so much about


nobody here is arguing for sexism, nobody here is arguing for misogyny or racism or any nasty stuff, we all agree on that..............where we disagree is how seriously we take some of the comments written in AH, how we judge their tone and intent and in my opinion the vast majority of stuff in there written about men or women or immigrants or people on the dole or whoever is either in jest or an honestly and reasonably expressed view, if not it tends to get warned/infracted/deleted pronto

so again I'd say, if you don't like the "tone" of the forum then don't try to use the fashionable pc forces of the day to manipulate the fearful lot in charge to conform their forum to fit in with your rather delicate worldview, instead appreciate that others think differently and want a more spiky fun forum to exchange banter without being made to feel like they are offending someone or other, it's what they want, leave them to it and if they're out the line then the consensus and mods will decide, it's a far more reasonable barometer of what is acceptable than you may think

Nodin

gargleblaster wrote: »

I have no idea. The poster may have deleted it. This is the main reason I'm even bothering with this thread - curiosity about whether or not that is considered acceptable and not sexist, otherwise I wouldn't even have bothered with this thread for what should be very obvious reasons..

So you're complaining and basing a part of your case on a post that was probably acted on? (and "don't know" doesn't cut it - you could have pm'd a mod to find out).

gargleblaster wrote: »

.........Just because you think that discussion of the article in the OP is the only reason for this thread, that does not make it so..

No, I'm saying that it was thrown in there because of the lack of substance in the overall thrust of the OP.

Windsock wrote:

It's an indication, nonetheless when people don't choose to engage anymore from fatigue..

Yes, but what its an indication of is the question. there are times when certain lines of discussion get me down. That, however, is usually something on my end and not the other.

Eve_Dublin

donfers wrote: »

fatigued? crikey you make it sound like she's a latter-day Emmeline Pankhurst when in reality all she is doing is getting wound up by childish jibes on a forum renowned for childish jibes

in that thread i recall she came on there complaining about guys who complain about feminazi's. and made the point again and again and again that no women were complaining, she made about 15 posts essentially complaining that the feminazi tag was unfair because none of the ladies were complaining about the hunky dory ads, this ignored a few points

1) there were ladies complaining about the hunky dory ads

2) yes a few guys made sarcastic comments but nothing too heavy, only 1 guy used the term feminazi and his post was deleted only for her to highlight it by quoting it

3) ironically she complained that these guys were giving threads a negative vibe all the time unaware that her multiple posts in the thread complaining about guys complaining was giving the thread a negative vibe

No, the reason as I already stated is because I'm too hot-headed to handle the comments.

Yes, there were ladies complaining about the ads but not in the way men automtically complained about i.e. we felt they were objectified and these accusations came almost immediately before any female posters even posted. It seemed any time a woman complained, posters jumped down her throat and accusations of jealousy and presumptions that the woman were ugly and bitter or bad drivers (wtf?) were bandied around.

I made a comment about my only objection to the ads and was told by one poster that I only felt that way because they were female. I've discussed this matter with that poster via PMs and it's sorted.

Most of my comments were light-hearted but I made one proper objection to the ads and I got attacked by numerous posters.

Also Donfer, I posted this comment on one post regarding looking at men's penises through their clothes...it was obviously a light-hearted comment...

"I do it to see the size of a man's wangadangadingdong.

Just spent 3 weeks in Italy and they all wear Speedos on the beach to emphasis their winkle. It was great.

Let's just say, I spent a lot of those 3 weeks on the beach wearing sunglasses"

To which you responded:

"
glad to hear it


hopefully there'll be no more whinges about being "objectified" and treated like a piece of meat from some ladies on here

we're all at it, slobber away folks, no double standards please"

Where was the whinging in the first place? I never once complained about the obejctifying of women on either of those two threads and you made out like threads were bombarded by complaints from females of that ilk.

I tried to keep it light-hearted and you came out with that party-pooper. This happens all the time. Similar comments are mad on a daily basis by men and women don't complain.

The only time we complain is when preemptive comments like, "I can hear the feminazis approaching in the horizon" or accusations of jealousy when we make an objection to the ads that have already been made by men (and were respected and debated instead of dismissed with the generic response mentioned above).

I'm taking time out because I'm fed up. I don't have the temperament for it and it's a waste of my time getting angry over it. I'm sure most mods would agree that's the best course of action for me.

gargleblaster

Nodin wrote: »

So you're complaining and basing a part of your case on a post that was probably acted on? (and "don't know" doesn't cut it - you could have pm'd a mod to find out).

Excuse me? Don't know doesn't cut what?

WTF are you trying to say here? Please be specific because I am very curious.

Yes, I could have PM'd a mod. Do you want to take a wild guess as to why I didn't? I don't have the patience to wait around and find out, so I'll just tell you: I didn't ask because I assumed it was acceptable due to no moderator posting anything about it on the thread, as well as similar past experiences - which taken together present a picture that such sexist comments are indeed acceptable on AH, racist comments less so. (You didn't seriously think I was only here complaining about sexism because of one post that wasn't removed, did you?)


FFS. That's it for me. I think I have my answer now.

g'em

donfers wrote: »

I think the AH mods are making a bit of a mess of this to be honest and they really don't know who the forum is for, by trying to please everybody they are pleasing nobody

they are trying to have their cake and eat it, trying to stay edgy and irreverent but at the same time wanting to appear to be down with the offense-chasers and right-on in terms of fighting these all-powerful internet evil forces that we are hearing so much about

Back up the truck there.

The Mods do not, have not and never will dictate who the forum is for, the general aura of the forum is created by the people who post there. What the Mods have been doing (and doing extremely efficiently by all accounts) is keeping the posting in line with site and local standards. There is no bashing threads allowed, period. That includes, and isn't limited to women, travellers, races and minority groups i.e. prejudicial threads are not allowed.

Things do get a little murky where misogyny is concerned though. There are more male AH posters than female, this creates a distinct imbalance in the manner in which jokey posts are made. By sheer volume it can be hard not to get tired of the same tired old boring lines getting trotted out by simple virtue of a bias in the gender posting them.

But where does the line get drawn? That's where it gets hard. Where does the joke line stop and misogyny begin?

I can absolutely guarantee that the AH Mod team take this issue very seriously, and it does not in any way get actively ignored. I can say with complete confidence that there is a lot less tolerated in there now with anti-women posts than there was 12 months ago.

Perhaps I'm a little immune to much of the comments because I (have to) read so much of what is said and I tune out the drivel, but by the same token those who say that they don't go into AH anymore are hardly in a position to cherry pick the odd thread they don't like and use it as representation of the forum ethos as a whole.

So solid examples and feedback of instances where folks think that material is inappropriate would be appreciated because I have to admit that I'm not seeing the forum in the same light as some of those who purport that AH is still a women bashing forum.

pickarooney

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I'm probably one of the posters who complains the most on those threads and I'm sorry for not posting on here sooner. I got angry earlier on that particular thread and thought I shouldn't post anything until I calmed down a bit. I've already stated my feelings on that thread in one particular post near the end and honestly, I don't want to get into it again. I can quote it here if you like. That's how I feel. I appreciate the moderating from Dr B. on that thread and I thanked him for it. I've also complained directly to moderators in the past but never received any response. I know you guys are busy but accusations that I've done nothing are wrong.

I'm giving AH a break for a few months just cos I don't have the temperament to handle it and not take comments to heart. I'm too hot-headed.

Thanks for all the modding...it's a fun forum until the Feminazi and jealousy accusations are pulled out. See ye soon.

I can undersand your frustration but it's a pity if you decide to stop posting in AH. The likes of yourself and Windsock provide the best antidote to the tiresome troglodytes simply by providing entertaining input into threads. In all honesty the kind of sharp, insighftul, often hilarious posts youse make are worth a million complaints as regards making AH a fun place to hang out.

Whinging for the sake of whinging really only serves to piss everyone off as you can see from this thread. Nobody even really knows what they're supposed to be arguing for or against.

Nodin

gargleblaster wrote: »

Excuse me? Don't know doesn't cut what?

WTF are you trying to say here? Please be specific because I am very curious.

Yes, I could have PM'd a mod. Do you want to take a wild guess as to why I didn't? I don't have the patience to wait around and find out, so I'll just tell you: I didn't ask because I assumed it was acceptable due to no moderator posting anything about it on the thread, as well as similar past experiences - which taken together present a picture that such sexist comments are indeed acceptable on AH, racist comments less so. (You didn't seriously think I was only here complaining about sexism because of one post that wasn't removed, did you?)

.......

So you complained about a post which subsequently dissappeared, used it here as an example of mod inaction without even bothering to find out if it had been acted on.....but you still presumed, even though the post had vanished, that it was deemed 'acceptable'.....

Eve_Dublin

pickarooney wrote: »

I can undersand your frustration but it's a pity if you decide to stop posting in AH. The likes of yourself and Windsock provide the best antidote to the tiresome troglodytes simply by providing entertaining input into threads. In all honesty the kind of sharp, insighftul, often hilarious posts youse make are worth a million complaints as regards making AH a fun place to hang out.

Whinging for the sake of whinging really only serves to piss everyone off as you can see from this thread. Nobody even really knows what they're supposed to be arguing for or against.

Thanks for that. It's much appreciated. Sure we'll see what the craic is in a week or two. I like posting in there and most posters are good to bounce off. Just the usual suspects I clash with that get on my wick and it probably has a lot to do with my own temperament and my propensity to take things a little too personally sometimes, I'll admit that. Not all that important on the grand sceheme of things.

dr.bollocko

gargleblaster wrote: »

I would like to know the moderators' thoughts on whether referring to women as "gash"es is acceptable and not sexist in AH.

Quite a head scratcher that one. Took me a while to figure out the specifics of the post in question.

In this instance the post was deleted as a non-comment of the fly-by-nonsense variety and the poster PM'd.

The thread in question was titled:

Would you care if your friend told you they used escorts / prositutes

The offending post:

Is it really such a big deal?

A bit of extra curricular gash

I believe that the poster was using the term gash to reference a vagina. Or perhaps in this instance to reference the sex act itself.

Rather uncouth. Not the kind of phrasing I would applaud.

However the identification of the genitalia in such a colloquial manner does not automatically denigrate the gender they belong to. At least to my mind.

When looking at a similarly vulgar alternative such as "Got some cock last night" one would not assume that such a post was attempting to denigrate all men.

Certainly it's informal. I wouldn't defend it as a turn-of-phrase nor would I praise it as high prose.

But I do not believe it was referring to women as gashes.

foxinsox

It seems to me that there is a whole load of nothing about nothing going on here.

If I read something that I perceive as to be "women bashing" I have some options:

1. read it and laugh - only if it is humourous.

2. read it and not laugh - if it is not funny.

3. read it and if I think it is obnoxious and over the top rude/crude
- I report the post.

4. read it and reply - with a well thought out response.

5. read it and think - meh!

6. read it - get popcorn ;-)

7. if the thread title is not to my liking - don't read it.


I like After Hours the way it is, I think the mods are doing a good job and seem to act on the type of inappropriate posts/threads as required.

gargleblaster

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I believe that the poster was using the term gash to reference a vagina. Or perhaps in this instance to reference the sex act itself.

Rather uncouth. Not the kind of phrasing I would applaud.

However the identification of the genitalia in such a colloquial manner does not automatically denigrate the gender they belong to. At least to my mind.

When looking at a similarly vulgar alternative such as "Got some cock last night" one would not assume that such a post was attempting to denigrate all men.

Certainly it's informal. I wouldn't defend it as a turn-of-phrase nor would I praise it as high prose.

But I do not believe it was referring to women as gashes.

Thanks. I did PM a mod but haven't received any response. I wasn't aware that posts might be deleted by mods with no sign the post was ever there, and no mod warning, no reason why it was deleted, etc. Out of curiosity, is there any way to tell when it was deleted?

As for the term itself, if it had been 'pussy' I would have read it the same way you did (i.e. analogous with 'extra curricular cock'). Not sure how it is over there, but over here, 'gash' is more offensive by far, so that's a case of cultural differences I suppose.

Apologies if I was one of the ones who was "whinging for the sake of whinging" as it was put.

I'd actually appreciate seeing a few examples of "whinging for the sake of whinging", so that I know what it is referring to.

Wibbs

TBH I take the pretty basic view and it's this,while there is always room for improvement and this debate is valuable for that, but if you don't like a forum and it's vibe and ethos, then don't post there. Simples. If enough of the regulars want to change then game ball, but IMHO majority in a community rules(with some caveats).

I felt the same about some taking repeated issue with the Ladies Lounge. If it grinds your gears, go elsewhere. There are enough elsewheres to sate your needs. If there aren't then try some other site.

If someone continues to post in a forum that grinds their gears, but the general community therein feels its game ball then IMHO they're looking for offence/trouble/outrage more than they're not.

I feel exactly the same way about a few against the many seeking to bend AH to what they want at the time, the way I do/did about the few seeking to change the Ladies Lounge to what they wanted.

I would and have defended tLL against that as a mod and poster and as a bystander and poster I'd defend AH against that with equal vigour.

coffee_cake

I don't know if I'm just immune to it by now or not, but I don't have that much of a problem with the forum. Yes, even the "all irish women are mingers whinge whinge" ones. They're just random idiotic posts and I don't see that they're particularly indulged on AH as opposed to anywhere else. Hell, we can rip into them right back. For anything else, we can report and it's generally dealt with.

gargleblaster

Well I have been avoiding AH for a while due to some things which I obviously had a problem with - but I like the forum overall, and would much rather enjoy it and not avoid it.

I think I'm going to take a page from Eve_Dublin's book and see if I can be more balanced about it. Take a break if things get heated and only engage in silly threads. It's only the silly threads I go there for anyway, and as has been said in here it's easy enough to predict the threads that might start trouble - so maybe I'll just focus on avoiding those instead of avoiding the entire forum.

That makes me wonder if there's a feature by which users can hide threads. That'd be great for avoiding threads that draw my interest but which I should nevertheless avoid.

FlutterinBantam

TheZohan wrote: »

After Hours is, at the best of times, very tiring. Between trolls and absolutely moronic posts it can put years on you. Best thing is to either walk away from a while, join in, or not take it so seriously. As soon as the mods have one batch of posters whipped into shape a new batch come along. They're like feckin' gremlins.

There's your answer Einstein.