Distance from side of road?

markcroninbsc

seamus wrote: »

If a boy racer came flying down that road without stopping, it wouldn't matter where I was on the road.

Tell me, seeing as cars manage to get around these roads without constantly banging into eachother, why is it suddenly different when one of the vehicles is a cyclist?

If a cyclist in the middle of the road at 20km/h isn't safe, then surely a car taking up the entire road at 40km/h is an accident waiting to happen?

if your keep in a little off the road the boy racer will have more of a chance to get out passed you than if you stay in the middle of the road and just say "im in the right your in the wrong". no use bein right if your dead.

And i dont know that road but there are plenty of accidents between cars on country roads like that, they dont always manage to squeeze passed, much less likely to be a fatal accident between two cars tho compared to a car and a cyclist. So honestly i dont think anyone can say that the safest place on a road like that is right in the very middle of the road. and if anyone can say that honestly then i dont think they should be on the road at all. Do you walkin the middle of the road when theres cars oncoming too?

Captain Havoc

@markcroninbsc some of the comments you have made are what I would consider inflammitory. Below are the comments I'm taking issue with:

markcroninbsc wrote: »

well that was the polite option. the right option would be to run the muppet over

Condoning running someone over isn't approved of here.

markcroninbsc wrote: »

i always try to give the lads on motor bikes a bit of room. them lads are all ****in eejits and will try pass you when its not safe (even if you command the lane) so i always find its safest to pull in a little and leave them off.

As cyclists, we try to be seen as individuals and I personally hate it when I'm tarred as being an RLJer or whatever, please don't say the same about other road users.

markcroninbsc wrote: »

i hope you meet some oncoming traffic sometime while cycling in the middle of the road.

Again, flamming.

These comments were brought to my attention and I recommend you calm down a little. I don't have time to peruse the entire thread which is why I'm writting this in thread as opposed to deciding whether or not they're worthy of infractions.

markcroninbsc

funkyjebus wrote: »

A smiley face doesn't make this a funny or less ridicules statement.

Your comments are laughable in their ignorance (in the real meaning of the word and not that way you used it) towards the law and the rules that govern our roads. Do you have any compassion / tolerance for other road users, and in particular for their right to ensure their own safety?

First off, its you an not anyone else who brought of this 1.5m figure, at least try follow what you say, eh? Now you go on to say its ok for someone to cycle at this distance if there are obstructions ahead. What about when its dark/ on a bend, foggy, raining(as potholes fill in) and all obstacles are not so apparent until close, do you really think it unreasonable for a person to afford them selves a small bit of contingency space? If so, you're a bad human being, end of.

On winding country road, I would in fact pull out further into the road for two reasons: (note that all reasons are for my safety - and not because I'm an 'eejit' or being 'ignorant' as you might call it)
1. So that the car behind me cannot come up too quick behind me on a left bend and not know im there (especially if a right bend preceded)
2. So that a car behind will not pass me until its safe as I can hear oncoming traffic. It always amazes me the amount of motorist who will overtake on a sharp bend even with oncoming traffic and going over the continuous white line. What if the oncoming vehicle is also doing the same??

But the major point which you seem to forget here is - a cyclist is another vehicle under the RTA and when you overtake one you should act as if it was a car. You wouldn't ( I hope - but hold none) overtake a car on a sharp bend with a continuous white line with an oncoming vehicle would you? So why a person who if it goes wrong you are likely to kill, so why do you do it? Are the seconds so valuable that you are will to trade off all of someone else life.

You, in every post you have made have (beatifully - I would say) demonstarted youer in ability to observe the most basic of road rules and cop on - so if any one should 'stay in off the ****** road' my vote is for you.

1.5 meters was mentioned in post 6, i mentioned it in post 8 or 9. so i think you should read every post before making a statement. every thing else you said is also utter crap, and youd know that if you read the posts. i never said it was ok to pass if it wassnt safe to do so, or if in doing so you were breaking the law. I said if it was safe for the cyclist to do so then they should pull in a little and leave traffic by, not because i think its the law but just because its the right thing to do. i also said that cycling in the middle of the road is almost always the wrong thing to do, which i think most reasonable people will agree with. except seamus, he's adamant on that one.

funkyjebus

markcroninbsc wrote: »

that road is an ideal candidate for my argument that about 1-2 foot from the side is the right place to be!! the middle of that road would get you killed if you had a boy racer comin the other direction

And your the ideal candiate for a labotamy.

Apologies - I just realised that that makes about as much sence as anyone of your posts or indeed all of them complied.

As you have wished cyclists harm in more than one of your posts, I hope you meet an oncoming speeding combine harvested on a small winding country road. Oh wait, nearly forgot ..............:D:mad:

seamus

markcroninbsc wrote: »

if your keep in a little off the road the boy racer will have more of a chance to get out passed you than if you stay in the middle of the road and just say "im in the right your in the wrong". no use bein right if your dead.

Well believe it or not, I'm actually capable of moving the bike from right to left. That's a revelation, I know. I could be on the left hand side of the road. A boy racer comes flying around a right-hand bend ahead of me(left hand for him), he's going to be on the left-hand side of the road (from my POV) when he comes out of the corner. Is it safer for me to be in the middle of the road, or the left-hand side? Which position gives me more options to get out of the way?

Do you walkin the middle of the road when theres cars oncoming too?

On a country bohreen? Absolutely. Why not? A car could come from front or behind. I have no way of knowing which side of the road is appropriate.

Idleater

markcroninbsc wrote: »

I said if it was safe for the cyclist to do so then they should pull in a little and leave traffic by, not because i think its the law but just because its the right thing to do.

But you said to me that you don't pull in to let other traffic by until you deem it safe to do so.
You being the one being overtaken rather than the overtaker who you are quite happy to keep behind you even though they reckon they can get by.

I'll ask you again, why the discrepancy in your logic? Are you able to make superior decisions on the road from your car when you are overtaking a cyclist than you can as a cyclist being overtaken by a car?

markcroninbsc

Idleater wrote: »

But you said to me that you don't pull in to let other traffic by until you deem it safe to do so.
You being the one being overtaken rather than the overtaker who you are quite happy to keep behind you even though they reckon they can get by.

I'll ask you again, why the discrepancy in your logic? Are you able to make superior decisions on the road from your car when you are overtaking a cyclist than you can as a cyclist being overtaken by a car?

sorry, honestly i dont think i did say that to you at all. i think your a bit mixed up. where i stand is, if im on me bicycle i just always keep in, unless im signaling to turn right or something like that, but normal cycling i just keep in. if im in the car and a lad comes up on a motorbike and he's buckin to get past i let him by.

markcroninbsc

i bet yer all orwell wheelers

Idleater

markcroninbsc wrote: »

if im in the car and a lad comes up on a motorbike and he's buckin to get past i let him by.

no, you said try. You try to let him by. Try indicates the possibility of time passing from the moment that you notice to the moment you perform the action.

You quite rightly said that they try to overtake all over the place in unsuitable locations, this also infers that there isn't room for you to pull over and let them by immediately.

You haven't answered my question about who deems it safe to pull over, as I presume you don't pull over if there is no room to do so. In such a circumstance, the biker (or other vehicle) is still behind you looking to overtake, and you haven't allowed them past.

Which nicely leads to the second point that you haven't answered: what is the difference between me as a motorcyclist complaining about being held up by some muppet in a cage not pulling over to the side of the road, and you thinking that a cyclist should do the same?

cython

markcroninbsc wrote: »

Ah no i will say its fair enough to cycle out a bit if theres parked cars and stuff like that, but most people on here will tell you to cycle at all times 1.5 meters out. i just think thats stupid, and you see alot of people doing that when your out and about. cycling close to the edge doesnt mean its harder to turn right either, you just have to signal and get into position in time. I'm a cyclist (not a very good one) and have been cycling for 20 years but i still hate when im out drivin and see some feckin eejit out cyclin in the middle of the road when theres no need

I believe at this point you undermined your entire argument, if you hadn't already done so. How can you come into this forum and thread, admit that, and then condescend to everyone like you're an expert on the subject?! This nonsensical rubbish and hypocrisy is exactly what the ignore button is made for.

markcroninbsc

Idleater wrote: »

no, you said try. You try to let him by. Try indicates the possibility of time passing from the moment that you notice to the moment you perform the action.

You quite rightly said that they try to overtake all over the place in unsuitable locations, this also infers that there isn't room for you to pull over and let them by immediately.

You haven't answered my question about who deems it safe to pull over, as I presume you don't pull over if there is no room to do so. In such a circumstance, the biker (or other vehicle) is still behind you looking to overtake, and you haven't allowed them past.

Which nicely leads to the second point that you haven't answered: what is the difference between me as a motorcyclist complaining about being held up by some muppet in a cage not pulling over to the side of the road, and you thinking that a cyclist should do the same?

firstly i hardly ever take to the road in a cage. yes i would leave him by if i can, by that i mean i pull in close to the edge and if he wants to get by or if he can get by then he does. I know if i was a boardsie id drive in the middle of the road and that would probably be safer for the fella on teh motor bike. obviously its the fella in fronts decision whether or not to pull in and leave someone by, and if a boardsie in a pink jersey wants to stayin in the middle of the road he's more than entitled to do that, me personally, id pull over to the side and let the car past. Most car drivers have the sense to pass when its safe to and not pass when its not. but i do leave that 2feet of space for me to pull in further if he starts bein an eejit. My argument really was theres no need not to let someone by if its safe to do so. some people on here think theres no reason to ever pull in and let someone by. i would say if you asked seamus, if he was cycling on a country road in the middle as he likes to do and a lorry came up behind and couldnt get by, he'd just keep cycling in the middle because he's allowed to.

clonmahon

Reading this thread has been an education for me. As someone who cycles mostly on rural roads, I am really terrified by idiots doing dangerous overtaking. After reading markcroninbsc demented ravings I now have a better insight into the mind set of such people.

I ride rural roads if I cycled a foot from the edge I would be inviting motorists to slip by me and they would, so I cycle about 1 metre from the edge. I use a rear view mirror. When I hear a car about 200 metres behind me I do a visible wobble and listen for a change in the engine sound. If I hear this I know the driver has seen me, has noticed the wobble and is paying attention. If the road surface allows I move in a little.

If the wobble produces no change in engine sound I know the driver has not seen me, has seen me but is not paying attention, or I am dealing with a moron. Either way I then move out to the centre of the lane and again listen to the engine. If there is no change in engine sound I hold my position and get ready to get off the road if need be. The advantage of being far out is that it gives me the option of pulling into the left at the last moment if I think the moron is going to run too close to me. The mirror allows me to watch the moron approach.

On blind bends it is important to listen for any cars coming towards you, if a moron is dangerous overtaking you on a blind bend and a car comes from the other direction they have two options go head on with the other car or hit the cyclist.

Another danger on rural roads are jeeps with trailers. The trailers are wider often much wider than the jeeps and if the driver forgets this and runs close to you the trailer wheels will be very close indeed. The most frightening experience of my life involved a jeep and trailer. It was after this I fitted a mirror to my bike.

Also in the tourist season watch out for caravans, at least farmers are used to driving regularly with trailers, people with caravans are not.

markcroninbsc

cython wrote: »

I believe at this point you undermined your entire argument, if you hadn't already done so. How can you come into this forum and thread, admit that, and then condescend to everyone like you're an expert on the subject?! This nonsensical rubbish and hypocrisy is exactly what the ignore button is made for.

I meant not a very fast one, but i have been cycling on the roads for about 25 years now. 20 years on a proper racin bike!! I've also got a full drivin licence and have been drivin for about 10 years so i think i have a fair grasp of the rules of the road.
this forum is full of not very good cyclists. if they were any good they probably wouldnt be here.

kenmc

Hint:
click on a posters name. Select "Add xxx to Ignore List". The troll then becomes confined to living under the bridge and we all live happily ever after.

Vélo

markcroninbsc wrote: »

I meant not a very fast one, but i have been cycling on the roads for about 25 years now. 20 years on a proper racin bike!! I've also got a full drivin licence and have been drivin for about 10 years so i think i have a fair grasp of the rules of the road.
this forum is full of not very good cyclists. if they were any good they probably wouldnt be here.

You must be a brilliant cyclist, you've got a racing bike....WOW!

markcroninbsc

clonmahon wrote: »

I cycle about 1 metre from the edge. I use a rear view mirror. When I hear a car about 200 metres behind me I do a visible wobble.

If the wobble produces no change in engine sound I then move out to the centre of the lane and again listen to the engine.

The mirror allows me to watch the moron approach.

Ask the driver who's the moron in this situation.

Vélo

markcroninbsc wrote: »

this forum is full of not very good cyclists..

Well there's one anyway.

clonmahon

markcroninbsc wrote: »

I meant not a very fast one, but i have been cycling on the roads for about 25 years now. 20 years on a proper racin bike!! I've also got a full drivin licence and have been drivin for about 10 years so i think i have a fair grasp of the rules of the road.
this forum is full of not very good cyclists. if they were any good they probably wouldnt be here.

I'm amazed that you claim to have been cycling for 25 years, given the opinions you are expressing in this thread, which are clearly at variants with the experience of all the other cyclists here and with my experience. I've been cycling since 1973 and your advise to hug the verge sounds suicidal to me.

Chips Lovell

Temp locking thread pending review. Apologies for the interuption.

markcroninbsc

clonmahon wrote: »

I'm amazed that you claim to have been cycling for 25 years, given the opinions you are expressing in this thread, which are clearly at variants with the experience of all the other cyclists here and with my experience. I've been cycling since 1973 and your advise to hug the verge sounds suicidal to me.

2 feet from the verge isnt hugging the verge. 1.5 meters on many irish roads is hugging the center line of the road, and in my view on most country roads thats more dangerous.

Chips Lovell

markcroninbsc banned for two days for keeping up the trolling despite two mod warnings.

@everyone else, report posts please, don't respond by flaming on thread.

Thanks.

jaqian

personally at least 1metre and i take over the whole lane where i think some eejit might decide to turn left across me.

galwaycyclist

OK speaking as a UK National Standard Cycling Instructor your default cycling position should be in the centre of the left most lane. This is where you can most effectively see, be seen by, and communicate with, other road users. It is also the best location for spotting any hazards ahead. Because this is the default road position it is called the "Primary" position and should be used whenever you need to make yourself obvious to other road users, whenever traffic is moving at your speed, or when you need to deter unsafe overtaking by following traffic.

If having assessed the risks, you have decided to move left so as to facilitate following traffic then the "Secondary" position should still be well out from the road edge. Reason being that the road edge is where surface hazards are concentrated and you still need room for manouevre. I would think the length of your outstretched arm is a useful guide. The theory is that you should still be recognisably part of the traffic stream going in your intended direction so the secondary position can vary depending on lane width.. If passing parked cars you should aim to have the full width of a car door to spare.

mp31

galwaycyclist wrote: »

OK speaking as a UK National Standard Cycling Instructor your default cycling position should be in the centre of the left most lane. This is where you can most effectively see, be seen by, and communicate with, other road users. It is also the best location for spotting any hazards ahead. Because this is the default road position it is called the "Primary" position and should be used whenever you need to make yourself obvious to other road users, whenever traffic is moving at your speed, or when you need to deter unsafe overtaking by following traffic.

If having assessed the risks, you have decided to move left so as to facilitate following traffic then the "Secondary" position should still be well out from the road edge. Reason being that the road edge is where surface hazards are concentrated and you still need room for manouevre. I would think the length of your outstretched arm is a useful guide. The theory is that you should still be recognisably part of the traffic stream going in your intended direction so the secondary position can vary depending on lane width.. If passing parked cars you should aim to have the full width of a car door to spare.

A most excellent point. IMO it should be a sticky thing so all newbies (like me) realise we do have rights as a road user and cycle with safety in mind.

4leto

As others pointed out once you are on the right side of the road,,err as the left side of the road.

But I like to hug the curb it just feels safer.

monument

4leto wrote: »

But I like to hug the curb it just feels safer.

It's not safer.

It's one of the worst bad cycling habits you could have.

4leto

monument wrote: »

It's not safer.

It's one of the worst bad cycling habits you could have.

Really. In my mind the most distance I can put between me and the traffic the safer I feel. When I say hug the curb I don't mean the gutter just enough distance away so I don't clip the curb.

DirkVoodoo

4leto wrote: »

Really. In my mind the most distance I can put between me and the traffic the safer I feel. When I say hug the curb I don't mean the gutter just enough distance away so I don't clip the curb.

Read this again and take notes, it will make you a better and safer cyclist.

rp

4leto wrote: »

Really. In my mind the most distance I can put between me and the traffic the safer I feel. When I say hug the curb I don't mean the gutter just enough distance away so I don't clip the curb.

There's a couple of problems with this: in my experience, cars will 'follow you in', that is, they have a personal idea of what a safe distance is and will maintain it (safe or not); secondly, I like to have buffer room: somewhere to run, when that bus who is half way through overtaking notices traffic coming the other way and pulls back in early - its good not to push off the road or squashed.

Also, hard left is where most of the broken glass, pot-holes and drains seem to be located: not the best riding experience.

kenmc

4leto wrote: »

As others pointed out once you are on the right side of the road,,err as the left side of the road.

But I like to hug the curb it just feels safer.

Unfortunate choice of phrase tbh, cos sooner or later you will probably end up doing just that if you don't give yourself enough room to evade trouble when it comes your way.

cdaly_

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

4leto wrote: »

Really. In my mind the most distance I can put between me and the traffic the safer I feel. When I say hug the curb I don't mean the gutter just enough distance away so I don't clip the curb.

Read this again and take notes, it will make you a better and safer cyclist.

@4leto also please read both links in this post...

4leto

Yeah all very interesting and I am totally wrong, I never thought that me been close to the kerb is potentially modifying other road users behaviour. Perhaps as a motorist, but when cycling I see myself less as a cyclist with different road user needs and more as a slow moving vehicle. So I pull in to let them pass, so to speak.

I learned something today, something very important, Thanks Guys.

galwaycyclist

4leto wrote: »

Yeah all very interesting and I am totally wrong, I never thought that me been close to the kerb is potentially modifying other road users behaviour. Perhaps as a motorist, but when cycling I see myself less as a cyclist with different road user needs and more as a slow moving vehicle. So I pull in to let them pass, so to speak.

I learned something today, something very important, Thanks Guys.

Hi 4leto pm me some kind of postal address and I'll put a "Cycling skills for adults" leaflet in the post. It can take a fair bit of confidence to do all the "take the lane" stuff sometimes. So you do have an alternative, which is to cycle a bit more cautiously at potential conflict points, back off the speed, cover your brakes etc. So if I am descending a fast hill I will take the lane passing side roads etc. If I am climbing the same hill, and I am much slower relative to the other traffic, I might just back off a bit passing side roads but be extra alert for what following or entering traffic is doing.

The essential point is that trying to "keep out of the way" may require more caution and delay to do properly rather than less. It is arguably a valid approach to cycling but not where we are trying to get to as a form of transport.

By which I am trying to say you're not totally wrong but you need to have a clear understanding of what each style of cycling requires.