Should school uniforms be abolished ?

Helix

TheDriver wrote: »

You need a BIG reality check on schools, its near to impossible to expel someone unless they threaten the health and safety of teachers or students,

what is bullying if its not that?

Gordon Gecko

I agree with uniforms in principle as wearing one's own clothes would put considerable pressure on some parents financially due to the nuances of fashion and the inevitable bullying based on clothes that comes without uniforms. The Government, however, could and really should be doing more to make uniforms more affordable as they are belatedly trying to do with school books

Helix

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

the inevitable bullying based on clothes that comes without uniforms

ill ask again, where does this actually happen in real life?

KittyeeTrix

TheDriver wrote: »

School discipline is tough and parental support isn't always there. uniform makes it a lot easier in many educational ways

I absolutely agree with you on the point that in many cases parental support is lacking but I cannot for the life of me see how paying an extra 30-40e for crested jumpers change this??

Generic uniforms would make life much easier for us parents who are already buckling under the economic pressure of kitting kids out yearly for school

Gordon Gecko

Helix wrote: »

ill ask again, where does this actually happen in real life?

It happened frequently at my school on tours, school trips and uniform off days. Just because you may not have experienced it doesn't mean it's some kind of urban myth.

Helix

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

It happened frequently at my school on tours, school trips and uniform off days. Just because you may not have experienced it doesn't mean it's some kind of urban myth.

was it actual bullying, or a bit of mickey taking?

i think some people dont realise the difference

whydoibother?

TheDriver wrote: »

You need a BIG reality check on schools, its near to impossible to expel someone unless they threaten the health and safety of teachers or students, suspension can only be for 20 days before it can be appealed again and again and what if they don't bother coming to detention, see above.

School discipline is tough and parental support isn't always there. uniform makes it a lot easier in many educational ways

No I don't need a BIG reality check. It's precisely because I'm quite realistic about how impossible it is to expel etc. that I'm criticizing the situation. That all needs to be sorted out from a legal point of view - making it easier.

I don't agree that discipline is tough. I often sat in school, not so long ago, with people shouting all sorts across the classroom and the teacher would do very little, most likely because there were limits to what they could do, but that's no excuse for it. It needs changing. If a child persistently offends, eventually the teacher only deals with the bigger offences because they can't spend all their time on one disruptive child. Our system rewards bad behaviour in this way - the more of it you engage in, the higher the threshold is before you are disciplined.

As for parents not backing up, start kicking their little darlings out and handing them the problem of how to get them into another school, you'll see a dramatic increase in interest in their kids behaviour.

hondasam

Helix wrote: »

where does this actually happen? never came across anything like it in my days at school

We are talking about teenage girls here, of course they will want the latest fashion item, I'm sure some boys will also.
It's much easier to have one choice of clothing in the morning and not a fashion show before school.

FinnLizzy

whydoibother? wrote: »

If another kid is picking on somebody, then use detention, suspension, expulsion as appropriate imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcVnG4HrWBI

Sort the little f*ckers out!

Gordon Gecko

Helix wrote: »

was it actual bullying, or a bit of mickey taking?

i think some people dont realise the difference

There was some mickey taking, but some of it was unquestionable bullying. Looking back on it I (and a lot of school mates I've talked to since) wish we'd have done something about it back then because a lot of it was seriously out of order.

Helix

hondasam wrote: »

We are talking about teenage girls here, of course they will want the latest fashion item, I'm sure some boys will also

isnt that just bad parenting that has them like that though? bit of cop on wouldnt go astray there

Helix

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

There was some mickey taking, but some of it was unquestionable bullying. Looking back on it I (and a lot of school mates I've talked to since) wish we'd have done something about it back then because a lot of it was seriously out of order.

fair enough

what kind of area did you go to school if you dont mind me asking? my school was very much working class for the most part and there was never anything like that. would i be right to assume its a middle class thing then?

Lefticus Loonaticus

Should be abolished, its discriminatory towards students.

If they are to stay, it should just be black/grey pants with some plain shirt or whatever. Teachers should be forced to wear the same thing aswell, to ensure equality :cool:.

You will actually find that the senior staff in most schools dont give a rats ass about the 'label' hypothesis. They are just mad into enforcing the status quo and abusing what ****ty little power they have.

I went to non uniform primary + uniform secondary. Makes zero difference, apart from the abuse you get from staff enforcing their precious rules.

kingtut

hondasam wrote: »

NO because there would be to much competition on who was wearing what everyday.

I very much doubt that would happen to be honest and anyway so what if it did ? People should be entitled to wear whatever they wish and not be forced by society to wear a particular thing :cool:

Gordon Gecko

Helix wrote: »

fair enough

what kind of area did you go to school if you dont mind me asking? my school was very much working class for the most part and there was never anything like that. would i be right to assume its a middle class thing then?

I went to a fee paying school in the City centre but there was quite an economic mix and about 10% of students were there on scholarships so there was quite a bit of scope for that kind of bullying. I couldn't say whether it was purely a middle class thing as I haven't really had any experience of working class schools but I'd say this kind of thing is prevalent wherever you get students of different means in the same school.

Helix

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

I went to a fee paying school in the City centre but there was quite an economic mix and about 10% of students were there on scholarships so there was quite a bit of scope for that kind of bullying. I couldn't say whether it was purely a middle class thing as I haven't really had any experience of working class schools but I'd say this kind of thing is prevalent wherever you get students of different means in the same school.

the issue is more with the raising of the haves then the problems of the have nots then

again, its not a school uniform problem, its a parenting problem

hondasam

Helix wrote: »

isnt that just bad parenting that has them like that though? bit of cop on wouldnt go astray there

No it's not bad parenting imo anyway.

Helix

kingtut wrote: »

I very much doubt that would happen to be honest and anyway so what if it did ? People should be entitled to wear whatever they wish and not be forced by society to wear a particular thing :cool:

this.

i dress like an absolute tinker a lot of the time when im just around the house and my local neighbourhood. ive got the means to dress myself in armani feckin suits if i wanted to, but i dont see the point. i was never raised to put any kind of value in that kind of nonsense

Helix

hondasam wrote: »

No it's not bad parenting imo anyway.

yes it is.

Gordon Gecko

Helix wrote: »

the issue is more with the raising of the haves then the problems of the have nots then

again, its not a school uniform problem, its a parenting problem

I don't think the issue can purely be ascribed to parenting. Personally I think school uniforms go a long way to preventing problems like these arising in schools and therefore they should not be abolished.

hondasam

kingtut wrote: »

I very much doubt that would happen to be honest and anyway so what if it did ? People should be entitled to wear whatever they wish and not be forced by society to wear a particular thing :cool:

It would happen. I always thought the majority of parents were happy with school uniforms, maybe they aren't.

hondasam

Helix wrote: »

yes it is.

what ever, I have no interest in arguing about what makes a good parent.
I know I'm a good parent and that's all that concerns me.

The thread is about school uniforms, not parenting.

kingtut

Helix wrote: »

this.

i dress like an absolute tinker a lot of the time when im just around the house and my local neighbourhood. ive got the means to dress myself in armani feckin suits if i wanted to, but i dont see the point. i was never raised to put any kind of value in that kind of nonsense

No but you should at least have the free choice to wear what you want in school, whether it's armani or not.

hondasam wrote: »

It would happen. I always thought the majority of parents were happy with school uniforms, maybe they aren't.

but so what if it did? What is wrong with people choosing what to wear themselves and as a result being able to express themselves?

My primary school had no uniform and it was great.

Gordon Gecko

Helix wrote: »

this.

i dress like an absolute tinker a lot of the time when im just around the house and my local neighbourhood. ive got the means to dress myself in armani feckin suits if i wanted to, but i dont see the point. i was never raised to put any kind of value in that kind of nonsense

I agree with what you say about the nonsense of brand labels etc. but the issue here is with school kids who just don't have that level of maturity.

paddyandy

The Fashion Business would love nothing more than the abolition of school Uniforms and no doubt they are on this thread.They are a Tyranny on Parents and Children alike and they work fiendishly to promote Strife with comparisons throughout all western societies in League with the other Evil Sister industries.It's the Huge Jealousy Machine.It wreaks Havoc with Family Budgets.

KittyeeTrix

hondasam wrote: »

what ever, I have no interest in arguing about what makes a good parent.
I'm know I'm a good parent and that's all that concerns me.

Hondasam, I'm not implying you are a bad parent and I hope it hasn't come across that I am:(
forgive me if it came across that way!!

I'm just expressing an opinion that some parents don't seem to be able to say no to their kids without holy war breaking out in the house. Obviously, I'm not saying this is the case for you:)

I'm all for the uniform but a more cost effective one than is currently being demanded by some schools

whydoibother?

In Germany they don't generally wear school uniforms. Is there any evidence that German children are bullied as a result?

We should stop guessing what would happen, when there are other countries that do this on a wide scale which we can look to.

Jess16

Just because you went to school, doesn't make you an expert on education. Most schools have uniforms for good reason and as a result of professionally thought out policies. If you think you know better than professionals, perhaps you should be educating your children at home.

Helix

kingtut wrote: »

No but you should at least have the free choice to wear what you want in school, whether it's armani or not.

absolutely. i agree with that

Professey Chin

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

I agree with what you say about the nonsense of brand labels etc. but the issue here is with school kids who just don't have that level of maturity.

maybe not that mature but also at the stage where things get boring after 20 seconds.
If it was a case of no uniform in every school then there might be competition for about a week but after that theyd find something new and itd get less and less down the line cause theyd be used to it.
People are saying itll happen cause it happened in their school on non-unfiorm days/tours(cant say it ever happened in mine) but theyre a rarity. Make it the norm and itd stop

Noo

I just remember uniforms being so handy!
Being a teenager dragging myself out of bed early in the morning, my brain not working, last thing I wanted to do was root out something to wear. Uniform right there on my floordrobe. Dead handy!

I finished 6th year wearing the same uniform I wore on my first day in 1st year, best damn investment my mother ever made!

whydoibother?

Jess16 wrote: »

Just because you went to school, doesn't make you an expert on education. Most schools have uniforms for good reason and as a result of professionally thought out policies. If you think you know better than professionals, perhaps you should be educating your children at home.

What are these good reasons and professionally thought out policies? As far as I can see, the uniform has been given very little thought in the modern era in most places. It's just an unquestioned tradition to have one. How do other countries function well without it?

The leave it to the establishment because they know best attitude has gotten us into enough trouble in this country. Anyone can express a view on how any profession do their job and it's important that outsiders sometimes do.

Professey Chin

Noo wrote: »

I just remember uniforms being so handy!
Being a teenager dragging myself out of bed early in the morning, my brain not working, last thing I wanted to do was root out something to wear. Uniform right there on my floordrobe. Dead handy!

I finished 6th year wearing the same uniform I wore on my first day in 1st year, best damn investment my mother ever made!

Did you not grow at all as a teenager?

KittyeeTrix

Jess16 wrote: »

Just because you went to school, doesn't make you an expert on education. Most schools have uniforms for good reason and as a result of professionally thought out policies. If you think you know better than professionals, perhaps you should be educating your children at home.

Jesse16, as the mother of 2 secondary school boys and 2 primary school kids I may not be an expert on their education but I will let you know that I am a bloody expert on the costs involved in buying their school uniform every September:(

Helix

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Jesse16, as the mother of 2 secondary school boys and 2 primary school kids I may not be an expert on their education but I will let you know that I am a bloody expert on the costs involved in buying their school uniform every September:(

playing devils advocate here, but would you not end up spending as much, if not more, on other clothes in place of the uniform over the course of the year if they didnt have the uniform?

Noo

Mega Chin wrote: »

Did you not grow at all as a teenager?

Haha nope. Stopped growing when i was about 11/12 (being a girl and all), if anything my uniform was bigger on me leaving school.

KittyeeTrix

Helix wrote: »

playing devils advocate here, but would you not end up spending as much, if not more, on other clothes in place of the uniform over the course of the year if they didnt have the uniform?

I'd imagine it would due to general wear and tear but my kids only ever get their clothes from Penneys/Dunnes and no brand trainers etc. so no massive costs.
We also operate a hand me down system with regards their uniforms/clothes so again savings made.

I'm not actually against the uniform at all. I think it is a good idea in schools but I feel there needs to be some serious review to the notion that schools can demand that ridiculously priced crested uniform parts are worn.:)

Twee.

Generic uniforms for the primary school kids, sew on the crest if required. My school sold the crest for about £5 at the time, got the jumpers in Dunnes usually.

Secondary school should have a dress code allowing some individuality, and a proper fit! A boys secondary I know allows the 4th-6th years to wear any brand chinos (black in winter, cream in summer), and any brand blue or white shirt, a subtle stripe is also acceptable. Girls should have guidelines in skirt length and appropriate tops.

WonderWoman!

Helix wrote: »

playing devils advocate here, but would you not end up spending as much, if not more, on other clothes in place of the uniform over the course of the year if they didnt have the uniform?

Id say you end up spending more on clothes not to mention the pressure on parents aswell as children also kids with self esteem issues would be victimised in this change too

Jess16

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Jesse16, as the mother of 2 secondary school boys and 2 primary school kids I may not be an expert on their education but I will let you know that I am a bloody expert on the costs involved in buying their school uniform every September:(

It is a false economy to think regular fashion items can withstand the daily wear and tear that comes with being worn to school 5 days a week. Of course uniforms are an expensive outgoing at the start of the year but you're paying for much more durable clothing that is far more cost effective in the long run.

Also, I'm all for expression but children need to be given the message that there are other, less shallow ways to express themselves outside of the clothes they put on their back. Also, there are plenty of hours outside of school time where they can go down that route if they want to.

However to avoid the serious problems that comes from a child being negatively judged by their peers, schools need to be kept as a level playing field as much as possible and school uniforms are one way of achieving that.

KittyeeTrix

Jess16 wrote: »

It is a false economy to think regular fashion items can withstand the daily wear and tear that comes with being worn to school 5 days a week. Of course uniforms are an expensive outgoing at the start of the year but you're paying for much more durable clothing that is far more cost effective in the long run.

Also, I'm all for expression but children need to be given the message that there are other, less shallow ways to express themselves outside of the clothes they put on their back. Also, there are plenty of hours outside of school time where they can go down that route if they want to.

However to avoid the serious problems that comes from a child being negatively judged by their peers, schools need to be kept as a level playing field as much as possible and school uniforms are one way of achieving that.

Jess, I'm not trying to be funny or smart with you or anything but have you actually read my posts???

My kids wear Penneys/dunnes/no brand cheap trainers so they are hardly shallow......quite the opposite I would imagine!

I AGREE WITH HAVING A SCHOOL UNIFORM but in a way that is more economically feasible than the current practice of crested jumpers often enforced by some schools

Logical Fallacy

Lefticus Loonaticus wrote: »

If they are to stay, it should just be black/grey pants with some plain shirt or whatever. Teachers should be forced to wear the same thing aswell, to ensure equality :cool:.

Teachers and students are not equal and should not be considered so.

thesimpsons

have no problems with uniforms - teens find them great not having to decide what to wear every day, just pick up uniform (off the floor/back of the chair usually ) and throw it on. eldest only needed 3 skirts through whole of 6 yrs and these are now passed down to younger sister, school jacket lasted 6 full years too and is now on its second life with daugher no. 2. Can't really argue at the cost of a skirt thats stands up to 10 hours wear, 5 days a week x 186 days a year for 70e. It would cost me far more to cloth my kids for the whole year in clothes which are still servicable for passing on for another 6 yrs.

My objection is to the crested this, that and the other for no real reason. Crested polo shirts anould tracksuits and expensive crap quality uniforms should be abolished though.

FoxT

I disagree with uniforms because I think that part of growing up is learning how to make sensible choices. Mandatory uniforms are just one rule too many. I am in favour of a sensible school dress code, which would be just as easy to implement.

Realtine

I moan about the cost of uniforms like most but I'm happy herself has to wear one to school. If she had to choose her own stuff each morning she'd never get out in time & the laundry basket would never be empty.
(she's 15 so I wouldn't be picking out her clothes each day)
Then again I only have the one in school so not a problem really for me, however if I had loads of kids it might be a different story but then again child allowance would probably cover it saved up during the summer,maybe.

I'm more pissed of about how often school books changes - now that's something that upsets me.

whydoibother?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwNQf08Kxsw

EGAR

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

No they should be mandatory. Cheaper to buy a uniform once every two years than try and keep your kid in fashion.

You obviously have no kids in school or else they don't grow?

I have no problem with uniforms but they should be available in Dunne's etc and not, like the one for my son, in only two shops in County Galway, both of which are grossly overpriced. He is 7 years old and his crested green jumper was 58 Euros, the green trousers 24 and the CREAM polo shirt 12...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

In two minds.

On the one hand, most ontinental schools have no uniforms, and there is no competition amongst kids. Is this just something people think will happen or is their any actual eveidence? I mean, do kids compete whne they hace days off or in the evenings? If so, how come it never happens in non-uniform schools?

On the other hand, **** it - the education system just turns them into programmed robots anyway, might as well go whole hog.

karaokeman

Maybe not, it is a problem with the recession now that parents won't be able to afford clothes to allow their kids to stay with fashion trends.

Perhaps a uniform that is made of similar material to what the average teenager wears. Generally school uniforms are very uncomfortable and take a lot of getting used to.

Micky Dolenz

stovelid wrote: »

No but kids should be able to wear generic uniforms and not ones with crests and the like. Or the school provides the crest and you can sew it on yourself.

There was a mother on the radio a few days ago and she bought one school jumper with crest, then every year after she cut it out and stitched it on a cheaper jumper. I thought that was very clever.