Should school uniforms be abolished ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddyandy wrote: »

IKKY POO ; Have a look at a Primary Certificate Exam paper for the 1950s
and have a look at The Leaving Certificate Exam paper for TODAY .The 50s Primary Cert. Exams would be impossible for many of today's Leaving Cert Students ..
Standards in Education have plummeted as Teachers know but won't say .

Absolute bull****

No sources whatsover - I don't believe you've ever seen a primary cert paper from the 1950s.

Corporal Punishment instilled an attention span that is'nt there any more .

Correlation does not imply causation:

Canard

At any rate, the current LC exams would be just as impossible to 1950s students. It's called a new syllabus.

Regardless of punishment levels, there will always be bright and dim children. I never needed to be told to study and I know if I was hit to be made study, it wouldn't have helped.

kowloon

paddyandy wrote: »

IKKY POO ; Have a look at a Primary Certificate Exam paper for the 1950s
and have a look at The Leaving Certificate Exam paper for TODAY .The 50s Primary Cert. Exams would be impossible for many of today's Leaving Cert Students ..
Standards in Education have plummeted as Teachers know but won't say .
Corporal Punishment instilled an attention span that is'nt there any more .

The science course was much better back in the day.

miss no stars

I think it cost about 250 punts to kit me out in secondary school. I got 2 new jumpers while I was there (40 euros a pop (had switched to new money), one I grew out of, 1 was because the school had a different jumper for 6th years), 1 new skirt, about 60 euros and a couple of new shirts and socks every year. Oh and about 4 pairs of school shoes over 6 years. in total, maybe 600 euro over 6 years. Big expense initially, but at 100 a year it's not that bad value. By 6th year I still had the same tracksuit bottoms and white aertex as I had in first year (trousers were STILL too long... I thought I was so cool in first year with my way too big trousers for some reason). In the years I did after school study I wouldn't bother changing when I got home. The uniform wasn't uncomfortable and it seemed silly to use up clean clothes for the sake of a couple of hours. If I wasn't doing after school study I might stay in the uniform 2/3 days a week. Think about it, 100 euro a year. You'd barely get two pairs of good quality, hard wearing jeans for that. Not to mention that the normal clothes only wear out 1/3 as quickly (unless they're grown out of before then or a strop about them not being in fashion occurs), so there's a genuine saving there.

I actually grew up in a situation that has allowed me to compare directly. I went to a uniformed school, my brother went to a non-uniformed school. The bit about peer pressure is horse sh!t by the way. That exists regardless, the uniform just redirects it. Not having a uniform doesn't make much of a difference to whether you're going to get picked on. The bigger difference was actually in cost. Back to school time my mum just had to get a pack of white shirts and green knee socks for me. The odd time a new jumper, and just the once a new skirt (different skirt for junior and leaving cert cycles, but probably would have needed a new one anyway). On the other hand, there was a trek around town to get clothes for my brother that would actually last for at least one term. Buy the really cheap stuff and a teenage boy wears through it pretty quickly. Then add in that, while he may not have been ultra fussy in practice when it came to picking an outfit for the day, any clothes bought did have to be acceptable to my brother. Many weren't. Even if you kit a kid out with 2 new hoodys, 2 pairs of jeans and 5 tshirts, as well as 2 pairs of runners (runners wear out faster than school shoes generally), you'll be hard pressed to either get them to last all year or to get them for under 100 euro. Can't imagine that both could be managed unless you had a particularly careful and non-hard wearing child. Also, I'm fairly sure there was as much giving out done by teachers about following the dress code in his school as there was giving out about following the uniform in my school.

Ultimately I don't think uniforms should be abolished,nor should they be compulsory nation-wide. On balance I think they were fine. I still have my groggy mornings looking into the wardrobe wishing I could reach for a uniform. The initial outlay for school specific stuff can be very expensive and is a bit much imho. Don't think it's too much of an ask to have a crested jumper, but schools wanting the crested jumper; school specific skirt; school jacket, scarf and hat; school blouse; school tracksuit are taking the p!ss. I also think it would be good to modernize. Jeans/slacks/knee length skirt, poloshirt, proper shoes and a round necked comfortable jumper would be comfortable and still look uniform. A primary school near me used to be non-uniform, then they brought in a uniform round necked jumper, but the rest of the outfit can be whatever. They must have done it for a reason

Anyway, whos ays uniforms are unique to school. Most workplaces either have a uniform or a dress code. Part of life is that you're required to meet dress expectations. School is about learning. (That said, I think enforcing uniform rules during state exams is heinous practice that should be abolished. Middle of june, wool skirt and wool jumper. Itchy, hot and uncomfortable. Ridiculous).

eta: I think school specific stuff at primary school is crazy. Generic with stick on/sew on patches all the way!

Dammo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In the 40s and 50s the teachers were either beating or raping the kids .......

Brilliant

Jo King

Patchy~ wrote: »

At any rate, the current LC exams would be just as impossible to 1950s students. It's called a new syllabus.

Regardless of punishment levels, there will always be bright and dim children. I never needed to be told to study and I know if I was hit to be made study, it wouldn't have helped.

Addition, subtraction, division and multiplication are still on the syllabus but youngsters today can't do them. They can't spell either nor have they any ideas of the rules of grammar.

paddyandy

Look at a Primary Certificate Paper for the 1950s and you will be surprised and alarmed at how low standards have fallen in all areas .They had very high discipline which gave very high results and no technology to help them .
The Leaving Cert. Students to-day probably could'nt do a primary cert. paper from the 1950s .

kowloon

paddyandy wrote: »

Look at a Primary Certificate Paper for the 1950s and you will be surprised and alarmed at how low standards have fallen in all areas .They had very high discipline which gave very high results and no technology to help them .

I wonder if the technology helps with everything, why learn to spell when you have spellcheck?

I also wonder how many Irish people were illiterate in the 1950s. Txtsp33k might be bad, but you have to be at least semi-literate to use it.

Could 'the kids are dumber these days' be another cliche along the same lines as 'the kids have no respect for their elders these days'?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddyandy wrote: »

Look at a Primary Certificate Paper for the 1950s and you will be surprised and alarmed at how low standards have fallen in all areas .They had very high discipline which gave very high results and no technology to help them .
The Leaving Cert. Students to-day probably could'nt do a primary cert. paper from the 1950s .

You pulled this idea out of your arse a while ago. It's as statisticall bull**** now as it was then.

Lia_lia

Our uniforms were ridiculously expensive too. You couldn't buy any of it in Dunnes etc as it was crested and the skirt and shirt had a very distinct colour and you could only buy them in one shop in the town. The jumpers themselves were €60 last I heard. Shirts were about €30 each!! And that was 5 years ago.

Even the PE uniform had to be paid for. And we could only wear crested jackets/hoodies. Which had our names printed on them. More money!

I still agree with uniforms, though. Some kids in our school used to be bullied for having cheap sneakers in PE...so I can't imagine what it would be like with everyone having their own clothes!

Then again I went to primary school in France where we all wore normal clothes. Uniforms don't exists in schools over there. Can't remember any bullying or anything like that though...I was very young!

marshbaboon

There's a catholic all girls school around the corner from me.

Should the uniforms be abolished? ... I'm going to go ahead and say no...

Canard

Jo King wrote: »

Addition, subtraction, division and multiplication are still on the syllabus but youngsters today can't do them. They can't spell either nor have they any ideas of the rules of grammar.

Calculators have taken the job in maths. Secondary school teachers call grammar "primary school stuff" but I was never taught it in primary school directly, so I don't know who's at fault there but it's not hard to pick up when it's all around you.

I wouldn't say that a bad grasp of basic maths and spelling is down to a lack of fear in schools anyway...I'm just out of school and I'm fine.

paddyandy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You pulled this idea out of your arse a while ago. It's as statisticall bull**** now as it was then.

Pooo ikky .......have a look sometime.Standards in Ireland are abysmal and covered up to avoid embarrassment in the ranks of education AND governments over the decades .

paddyandy

Patchy~ wrote: »

Calculators have taken the job in maths. Secondary school teachers call grammar "primary school stuff" but I was never taught it in primary school directly, so I don't know who's at fault there but it's not hard to pick up when it's all around you.

I wouldn't say that a bad grasp of basic maths and spelling is down to a lack of fear in schools anyway...I'm just out of school and I'm fine.

Wait and see when a page of questions are handed to you and you sit down to answer them with a pen and a blank sheet of paper .No tech. gadgets allowed .

Precious flower

I think uniforms with crests and that should be banned. That's what we had in our primary and secondary school and we could only buy them which meant forking out 50 plus euro. I think instead you should just be able to go into Tesco and buy a grey skirt and jumper from there school range for 10 euro.

byhookorbycrook

Considering that a primary pupil wears the uniform 183 times a year, mostly good value. Our crest is available seperately so people can buy the uniform anywhere and se on the crest. (BTW having a crest was a suggestion of the PA)
It amuses me to hear some people give out about uniform and lash out €40 plus for a shop-bought Hallowe'en costume that will be worn once

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddyandy wrote: »

Pooo ikky .......have a look sometime.Standards in Ireland are abysmal and covered up to avoid embarrassment in the ranks of education AND governments over the decades .

So... I'm just expected to ignore the fact that you have presented an idea of pure fantasy with no statistical evidence or sources whatsover, and blindly and ignorantly accept what you tell me..? Sorry - didn't work for the creationsists and it won't work for you. I was educated in the 80s, not the 40s and 50s.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Considering that a primary pupil wears the uniform 183 times a year, mostly good value. Our crest is available seperately so people can buy the uniform anywhere and se on the crest. (BTW having a crest was a suggestion of the PA)
It amuses me to hear some people give out about uniform and lash out €40 plus for a shop-bought Hallowe'en costume that will be worn once

Serious question, as I beleive you are a teacher: what is the biggest benefit to the kids of having a uniform as opposed to a dress code?

kowloon

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Considering that a primary pupil wears the uniform 183 times a year, mostly good value. Our crest is available seperately so people can buy the uniform anywhere and se on the crest. (BTW having a crest was a suggestion of the PA)
It amuses me to hear some people give out about uniform and lash out €40 plus for a shop-bought Hallowe'en costume that will be worn once

I agree that a uniform is good value, but Halloween is way more fun and shouldn't come into the equation .

Roadtrippin

There were no uniforms in my former school and trust me, it works out much more expensive for parents than the occasional school uniform a year!
I am 100% in favour of school uniforms, all need for self-expression for teenagers aside!
In my school you could straight away tell whose parents had money and whose didn't. You could tell who spends too much time preoccupied with their looks and spends all their money on fashion and makeup. It's normal for teenagers to care a lot about what they wear and to want to look good etc. but wearing normal clothes and makeup etc. can be done in your spare time/weekend etc.
Students who wore designer/expensive clothes in my school often thought they were something better than the rest whereas it seemed to me that all their clothes reflected was the fact that their parents spent too much money on them rather than time with them! (generalising a bit here but in the majority of cases that held true!)

IMHO school uniforms are the best way to keep socio-economic differences out of schools! Being a teenager is already difficult enough for most students as it is, so no need to bring money and fashion obsession into play!

Canard

paddyandy wrote: »

Wait and see when a page of questions are handed to you and you sit down to answer them with a pen and a blank sheet of paper .No tech. gadgets allowed .

Hahaha, implying I'm stupid? I'm perfectly able to do mental arithmetic, so a pen and paper is perfectly fine by me. I did honours maths, I don't need a calculator. I was an A student in English, Irish and French, so I can clearly spell too. I'm no idiot, so your argument is still not working.

Whether or not you could do a lot of the new Leaving Cert stuff (project maths being a prime example) is also an interesting thought, just saying, so there's no need to make (failed) personal attacks.

crazy cabbage

NNNNOOOOO

i had to suffer 14 years with a school uniform. Why shouldn't the rest of them.... :rolleyes:

tdv123

No, people will get confused & wont know what school they go to if they don't have there uniform on them to tell them where to go.

Jo King

kowloon wrote: »

I wonder if the technology helps with everything, why learn to spell when you have spellcheck?

?

Spellchecker doesn't spell for you. The user still has to know how to spell. Frequently quite is spelled as quiet and vice versa. There was illiteracy in the 50s because people couldn't afford to go to school. Many couldn't afford to have books at home. When there was a Primary Cert, teachers work could be evaluated by the results. Nowadays it is left to employers to discover that the new recruits cant do simple mental arithmetic or write a few coherent sentences.

Stercus Accidit

St.Spodo wrote: »

I'm in favour of no uniforms. If the parents are dirt poor, tell the kids to become hipsters. They can maintain an air of superiority while wearing rags.

The true hipster children would come in in a uniform to buck the trend.

paddyandy

Patchy~ wrote: »

Hahaha, implying I'm stupid? I'm perfectly able to do mental arithmetic, so a pen and paper is perfectly fine by me. I did honours maths, I don't need a calculator. I was an A student in English, Irish and French, so I can clearly spell too. I'm no idiot, so your argument is still not working.

Whether or not you could do a lot of the new Leaving Cert stuff (project maths being a prime example) is also an interesting thought, just saying, so there's no need to make (failed) personal attacks.

Sorry i never intended my post as a personal attack more as a general comment .You misunderstood me there .I know nothing about you .

paddyandy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So... I'm just expected to ignore the fact that you have presented an idea of pure fantasy with no statistical evidence or sources whatsover, and blindly and ignorantly accept what you tell me..? Sorry - didn't work for the creationsists and it won't work for you. I was educated in the 80s, not the 40s and 50s.

I have not asked you anything except to have a look sometime or any time at a fifties primary cert. paper .No Blind faith demanded whatsoever .Also nothing to do with Creationism that you mention unnecessarily, which is not anything to do with the argument .

byhookorbycrook

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Serious question, as I beleive you are a teacher: what is the biggest benefit to the kids of having a uniform as opposed to a dress code?

Cuts out competition over "labels" to a great extent. Cheaper for parents and no rows over what to wear each morning.
Makes it easier find the kids on a tour/outing/at a concert etc.

Helix

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Cuts out competition over "labels" to a great extent. Cheaper for parents and no rows over what to wear each morning.
Makes it easier find the kids on a tour/outing/at a concert etc.

if you raise your kids properly rows over labels shouldn't be happening whatever they're allowed to wear to school

byhookorbycrook

Jo King wrote: »

When there was a Primary Cert, teachers work could be evaluated by the results. .

Not really,children with learning difficulties or those from poorer backgrounds would not have taken the test,emphasis was on a narrow "teach to the test " syllabus

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddyandy wrote: »

I have not asked you anything except to have a look sometime or any time at a fifties primary cert. paper .No Blind faith demanded whatsoever .Also nothing to do with Creationism that you mention unnecessarily, which is not anything to do with the argument .

I'd be glad to. Please link to one you are refering to.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Cuts out competition over "labels" to a great extent. Cheaper for parents and no rows over what to wear each morning.
Makes it easier find the kids on a tour/outing/at a concert etc.

As has been said before, uniforms to not cut out compeition, because kids still wear regualr clothes at the weekend and competition still exists. But how does havinf a simple dress code not resolve the same problems? And what are the specific benefits for kids, not the parents or teachers?

Johro

ger vallely wrote: »

My kids attend a uniformed school. i agreed to this when I applied for their positions at the school. My gripe is that this year the school have introduced a new crested tracksuit pants. They cost €45!!I think uniforms are a great idea. It cuts down on competition and could(should) save parents a few quid, what with teenagers looking for Hollister and all the other pricey brands. It ought to be acceptable at the moment, considering the financial stress put on people, that kids can wear a generic uniform. Navy jumper,navy trousers, blue shirt etc basic but still in keeping with the idea. I had already bought regular tracksuit pants for the first term. They are plain navy and cost €12.A month later I got the letter in the post informing parents of the new compulsory crested pants. Times are tough,money is not going as far as it did and uniforms are very expensive. The idea is great but the schools need to give a little leeway.

Parents should protest this en masse, if enough of them complain about it they'll have to review that decision, it doesn't make any sense at all. Sounds like a money making racket.

FinnLizzy

Roadtrippin wrote: »

There were no uniforms in my former school and trust me, it works out much more expensive for parents than the occasional school uniform a year!
I am 100% in favour of school uniforms, all need for self-expression for teenagers aside!
In my school you could straight away tell whose parents had money and whose didn't. You could tell who spends too much time preoccupied with their looks and spends all their money on fashion and makeup. It's normal for teenagers to care a lot about what they wear and to want to look good etc. but wearing normal clothes and makeup etc. can be done in your spare time/weekend etc.
Students who wore designer/expensive clothes in my school often thought they were something better than the rest whereas it seemed to me that all their clothes reflected was the fact that their parents spent too much money on them rather than time with them! (generalising a bit here but in the majority of cases that held true!)

IMHO school uniforms are the best way to keep socio-economic differences out of schools! Being a teenager is already difficult enough for most students as it is, so no need to bring money and fashion obsession into play!

Sounds very similar to what we know as 'real life'. The w@nkers who think this way are still going to be around on the weekend.

Milk & Honey

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not really,children with learning difficulties or those from poorer backgrounds would not have taken the test,emphasis was on a narrow "teach to the test " syllabus

Are schools not supposed to teach the syllabus? Is the modern trend to know how to make a castle out of play dough but not know how to calculate the value of a 15% discount?

singlesnights

hondasam wrote: »

NO because there would be to much competition on who was wearing what everyday.

This.

My daughter starts school in September and I have enough to worry about, without having to worry about her school clothes not being "cool" enough!

paddyandy

Helix wrote: »

if you raise your kids properly rows over labels shouldn't be happening whatever they're allowed to wear to school

It's far from a perfect world so Uniforms are realistic and practical .

paddyandy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'd be glad to. Please link to one you are refering to.
Try the Dept. of education or google it .Surely somebody out there ..


As has been said before, uniforms to not cut out compeition, because kids still wear regualr clothes at the weekend and competition still exists. But how does havinf a simple dress code not resolve the same problems? And what are the specific benefits for kids, not the parents or teachers?

Live in the real world Ikky .......less Poo please .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddyandy wrote: »

Live in the real world Ikky .......less Poo please .

Ignoring the issue under debate and insulting me doesn't actually do anything positive.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

On a more serious note, can someone who advocates the unofrms as a way of stopping compeition amongst kids tell me -

1 - If this is such a mojor issue, why is no one tacking the root casue of the proble, i.e. the media and advertising?
2 - What postives do a uniform have over a set dresscode? Assuming the effects of minimising competition are going to be the same (assumign they are)?

paddyandy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Ignoring the issue under debate and insulting me doesn't actually do anything positive.

You used latrine language at me first a few posts back if you'd care to look .

paddyandy

Re dealing with Ads etc;Ireland is welded and wedded and bedded with the media .Impossible .

supernature

School uniforms are big business for a lot of people including the schools themselves.

No evidence to show they improve grades or behaviour.

Poor kids look poor rich kids look rich whatever you put them in.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddyandy wrote: »

You used latrine language at me first a few posts back if you'd care to look .

I believe I said "you pulled the idea out of yoru arse", which, while it may have caused offense, pretty much implied that you made up an idea and tried to pass it off as fact.

Anyway, enough dodging of the issue, if you want to go on like this you go on alone. If your next post does not address the issue with some sort of backup I'm not going to respond to it.

steddyeddy

I dont think uniforms improve grades or necessarily improve behaviour. What does improve behaviour and grades imo is a happy child. I havent got strong feelings on the uniform issue but I think whatever makes the child happy should be paramount. The best thing would be for the children to be asked wheter they want to wear one or not.

byhookorbycrook

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Are schools not supposed to teach the syllabus? Is the modern trend to know how to make a castle out of play dough but not know how to calculate the value of a 15% discount?

The key words here are "narrow" and "teach to" ie drill, drill drill,rote learning without understanding.

byhookorbycrook

Don't under-estimate the value of the uniform on trips either. My first ever school tour, two of us, fresh out of college took 70, yes 70, junior infants to the zoo. I still wake at nights trying to count them all.:D

steddyeddy

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Don't under-estimate the value of the uniform on trips either. My first ever school tour, two of us, fresh out of college took 70, yes 70, junior infants to the zoo. I still wake at nights trying to count them all.:D

Fair play! That would be one of my worst nightmares!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Don't under-estimate the value of the uniform on trips either. My first ever school tour, two of us, fresh out of college took 70, yes 70, junior infants to the zoo. I still wake at nights trying to count them all.:D

Why not use hi-viz vests? They do that over here and you can see the little devils a mile away. Much cheaper too, I would have thought (school buys them then and what ever class needs them uses them).

byhookorbycrook

supernature wrote: »

School uniforms are big business for a lot of people including the schools themselves.

How do you mean business for the school?

Milk & Honey

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The key words here are "narrow" and "teach to" ie drill, drill drill,rote learning without understanding.

So it is better not to learn at all in case they wouldn't understand?