Brock Lesnar v Alistair Overeem

Plastikman_eire

MrStuffins wrote: »

It was not all based on strength i'm afraid.

Randy was an Olympic alternate wrestler.

Cain is a 2-time All American and a Junior Champion.

Overeem is neither of these things!

Lesnars takedowns resemble football tackles, they havent been successful against smaller more skill opponents(Cain and Randy) or against an opponent who could match him for size(carwin, who's wrestling is also extremely overrated)

MrStuffins

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Lesnars takedowns resemble football tackles, they havent been successful against smaller more skill opponents(Cain and Randy) or against an opponent who could match him for size(carwin, who's wrestling is also extremely overrated)

This may be your opinion, which is fine.

But you're letting it get in the way of one simple fact..... this is Overeem we're talking about here. Lesnar will take him down at will!

Cill94

Ush1 wrote: »

No evidence of a glass jaw at all, just doesn't react well to getting hit in the face.

He said he was never close to being knocked out and even against Cain, the punch that made him drop was to the back of his head.

But obviously Brocks weakness is getting hit in the face however on watching Overeems last fight I think he will be hugely scared of being taken down so won't really go for it.

Comparing Todd Duffee to Brock is ridiculous in my opinion.

Ok, fine. Then Brock will get stunned and wobbly and Overeem will simply TKO him.

Cill94

Not at all ruling out the possibility of Brock taking Reem down and potentially winning the fight from there btw. However I don't think his td attempts will be successful and from there I see Reem finishing the fight quickly.

MrStuffins

Cill94 wrote: »

Not at all ruling out the possibility of Brock taking Reem down and potentially winning the fight from there btw. However I don't think his td attempts will be successful and from there I see Reem finishing the fight quickly.

I honestly can't understand why people are, even if Brock's wrestling HAS regressed since college, thinking that Overeem's TD defence is anywhere near good enough to stop Brock taking him down.

Plastikman_eire

MrStuffins wrote: »

I honestly can't understand why people are, even if Brock's wrestling HAS regressed since college, thinking that Overeem's TD defence is anywhere near good enough to stop Brock taking him down.

Kind of a pity for Brock that punching is allowed though.

DrPhilG

Cill94 wrote: »

The point is that I hardly think rolling into a ball like a hedgehog for most of the round while you're being pounded on is intelligently defending yourself.

Nor do I, nor did Josh Rosenthal. That is why he told Brock to improve his position or he would stop the fight.

Rosenthal said right after the fight that he had told both men in the locker room that they would be give the chance to respond and he felt that while Brock was responding to his commands and reacting to the beating, he had no reason to step in.

MrStuffins

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Kind of a pity for Brock that punching is allowed though.

This is true. On the feet, it's a no contest.

But there's no way Brock is stupid enough to keeo this fight on it's feet.

In this case, it's a massive pity for The Reem that takedowns are allowed.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Brock with a train-like takedown in the first round and GnP the face off Overeem.

Jason McCabe

Would stick my cash on big Brock.

I just think he will be able to take overeem down and GNP him

cowzerp

Cill94 wrote: »

Overeem has the most prestigous kickboxing title in the world. JDS is a good boxer but I'd choose kickboxing over boxing anyday, more tools to inflict damage with..

More weapons does not mean better, Dos santos would knock him out easy in my opinion, If you think Kickboxing beats Boxing then you must not have been watching the UFC much as most the dominant strikers are mainly Boxers. This is simple-Hands are the most effective striking weapon.

LeoGilly

Any idea on when the tickets for this event will go on sale. New Years Eve in Vegas sounds like a very good idea.

Sid_Justice

cowzerp wrote: »

More weapons does not mean better, Dos santos would knock him out easy in my opinion, If you think Kickboxing beats Boxing then you must not have been watching the UFC much as most the dominant strikers are mainly Boxers. This is simple-Hands are the most effective striking weapon.

Then why don't mediocre heavy weight boxers enter K1 and win the tournaments?

pablohoney87

Even if brock gets the takedown i don't see him bothering overeem. i don't think anyone will be foolish enough to try and play a half guard game against him again. if it goes to ground it won't stay there and there's only so much punishment brock is able to take on the feet before he crumbles.
The Reem by second round tko i reckon.

Mellor

What is it bout HW matchs that bring out the worst in discussion.
In all the other divisions, people are reasonable, but as soon as its HW logic goes out the window.
Absolute lol at taking one or two elements from 1 or 2 fights and suggest it applies of all bouts involving fighter X.

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Lesnars takedowns resemble football tackles, they havent been successful against smaller more skill opponents(Cain and Randy) or against an opponent who could match him for size(carwin, who's wrestling is also extremely overrated)

That's nonsense. Lesnar took cain down rather quickly, Cain has excellany wrestling too and is pretty strong so he was able to get back up, this proves cain has good wrestling not that Brock doesn't.
Suggesting that Brock doesn't have good wrestling is nonsense.

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Then why don't mediocre heavy weight boxers enter K1 and win the tournaments?

Because K-1 is a kickboxing organisation not an MMA organisation. I would of thought that was kinda obvious.

In MMA hand based strikes such as boxing tend to be fvoured over kicks. This is due to the inclusion of wrestling and takedowns. Punches and wrestling just go better together than kicks do.

For effecting punches, you need a good solid base. Which is also needed for take downs and takedown defense.

Kicks make it harder for you to move and/or transition to a takedown. Kicks weaken your base, which means its easier to take you down.

MrStuffins

Mellor wrote: »

What is it bout Brock Lesnar that brings out the worst in discussion.
With all the other fighters, people are reasonable, but as soon as its Lesnar logic goes out the window.

FYP!

Mellor

MrStuffins wrote: »

FYP!

It's especially true for Lesnar, but it similar for lots of other HWs, Fedor, JDS, Carwin were all the subject of ridiculous arguments.

cowzerp

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Then why don't mediocre heavy weight boxers enter K1 and win the tournaments?

For 1 I never said mediocre boxers,
The standard of boxer who could win these would earn way more money than possible in k1 also, with tournament style fights there legs would not cope either unless they proper trained k1 rules for a decent period.

Last point-overeem had an easy run of it in the tournament and fought the final versus a battered opponent who will smash him if the fight fresh again-top k1 fighters are serious and although overeem is capable he's not truly world class in it or striking at all.

Cill94

cowzerp wrote: »

More weapons does not mean better, Dos santos would knock him out easy in my opinion, If you think Kickboxing beats Boxing then you must not have been watching the UFC much as most the dominant strikers are mainly Boxers. This is simple-Hands are the most effective striking weapon.

That's because the UFC is dominated by wrestlers. Throwing kicks against opponents like Fitch, GSP, Edgar etc. will leave a fighter extremely susceptible to a take down, which can be the difference between losing and winning a round. In a matchup between two strikers however implementing something like leg kicks can completely throw your opponent off. If you can't stand, you can't get any power behind your strikes. Jose Aldo does it to just about everybody. Shogun has some nasty ones too.

Plastikman_eire

Mellor wrote: »

That's nonsense. Lesnar took cain down rather quickly, Cain has excellany wrestling too and is pretty strong so he was able to get back up, this proves cain has good wrestling not that Brock doesn't.
Suggesting that Brock doesn't have good wrestling is nonsense.

So essentially you've just paraphrased what I said? Incidently I said his wrestling was over rated, not that he doesnt have good wrestling.

If lesnar was as skilled a wrestler as people make out(rather then a bulldozer), he should have had no problem controlling other wrestlers(albeit talented ones) like cain and randy given the large size advantage he helds over them.

Then consider the carwin fight where he was equally matched for power and size, lesnar couldnt take down a guy that he was supposed to be the inferior wrestler until he was dead on his feet.

Mellor

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

So essentially you've just paraphrased what I said? Incidently I said his wrestling was over rated, not that he doesnt have good wrestling.

If lesnar was as skilled a wrestler as people make out(rather then a bulldozer), he should have had no problem controlling other wrestlers(albeit talented ones) like cain and randy given the large size advantage he helds over them.

Then consider the carwin fight where he was equally matched for power and size, lesnar couldnt take down a guy that he was supposed to be the inferior wrestler until he was dead on his feet.

That is some of the worst logic i've ever seen on this forum

robwalsh

this is funny........ anyone worth their salt in MMA knowledge knows, overeem is completely over-rated...... lesner is just gonna take him down and beat him up...... any who thinks overeem beat werdum in their last encounter is deluded...... overeem's striking is ok at best and it was shown against werdum...... I agree 100% with mellor.

Dancor

cowzerp wrote: »

Brock will take it to ground,
Overeem striking is not near as dynamic as cains, I think this will go to ground fast and if brock does not get guillotined then he'll pound overeem out.

Hmmm

cowzerp wrote: »

Could ya imagine brock running away from that...

Hmmm

cowzerp wrote: »

There would be no tear up, if he does not get a take down he will run away again and this time it would be more severe as Carwins beat down of Lesnar as Overeem is a real striker who would finish the job..

What has changed you mind?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056049969

cowzerp

Dancor wrote: »

Hmmm
Hmmm

What has changed you mind?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056049969

As seen as you went to so much effort i'll respond!

That was at a time when i was embarrased about brock and his folding up and was writing emotionally, Plus the bigger Overeem is getting the more robotic his striking is becoming-i like him but feel if Brock does avoid getting hit he'll have his way with Overeem, If he's hit he will fold and get beat up-i think he can avoid that though.

I'm open to change my mind and have on many occasions-my opinions change as i go depending what i think, right now i think overeem is not dynamic enough to use his striking like Cain and Dos santos for example.

Jayo_M

cowzerp wrote: »

Last point-overeem had an easy run of it in the tournament and fought the final versus a battered opponent who will smash him if the fight fresh again

How do you come to that conclusion? Overeem is 2-0 against Aerts. I'm not saying it wouldn't be close or that Aerts couldn't win, but to think he'd just go out and smash Overeem is disrespectful to what he's done in K-1.

SDTimeout

Jayo_M wrote: »

How do you come to that conclusion? Overeem is 2-0 against Aerts. I'm not saying it wouldn't be close or that Aerts couldn't win, but to think he'd just go out and smash Overeem is disrespectful to what he's done in K-1.

Aerts gassed big time in the 2009 fight. Said he lost all of his power after about a minute and felt no shame after that loss. Second fight Overeem had easy route to final and Aerts went through an absolute war with Schlit ( i think ? )

Overeem seems static in his stand up. Cautious almost in the fact he has no confidence in his chin. He doesn't have the same flow that I would say Cain or JDS have. Maybe a few shots from Brock will loosen him up and we can see some of his stand up. We know he has it, he just has looked out of sorts ( Werdum )

Xlami

SDTimeout wrote: »

Aerts gassed big time in the 2009 fight. Said he lost all of his power after about a minute and felt no shame after that loss. Second fight Overeem had easy route to final and Aerts went through an absolute war with Schlit ( i think ? )

Overeem seems static in his stand up. Cautious almost in the fact he has no confidence in his chin. He doesn't have the same flow that I would say Cain or JDS have. Maybe a few shots from Brock will loosen him up and we can see some of his stand up. We know he has it, he just has looked out of sorts ( Werdum )

Yeah Aerts had a war that night. But Overeem is 1-1 with Badr Hari the best HW striker in the world.

Plastikman_eire

Mellor wrote: »

That is some of the worst logic i've ever seen on this forum

Care to actually present a counter argument?

Jayo_M

SDTimeout wrote: »

Aerts gassed big time in the 2009 fight. Said he lost all of his power after about a minute and felt no shame after that loss. Second fight Overeem had easy route to final and Aerts went through an absolute war with Schlit ( i think ? )

Overeem seems static in his stand up. Cautious almost in the fact he has no confidence in his chin. He doesn't have the same flow that I would say Cain or JDS have. Maybe a few shots from Brock will loosen him up and we can see some of his stand up. We know he has it, he just has looked out of sorts ( Werdum )

Didn't he get put on his back twice in the first minute? Might have had something to do with it.

SDTimeout

Jayo_M wrote: »

Didn't he get put on his back twice in the first minute? Might have had something to do with it.

Knocked down early and then tossed. Had he been put on his back twice genuinely the fight would have been over ?

Jayo_M

SDTimeout wrote: »

Knocked down early and then tossed. Had he been put on his back twice genuinely the fight would have been over ?

No, if he had been knocked down twice it would have been, but he was knocked down once and ragdolled the second time. Still, don't see how Aerts making excuses makes the win any less credible and how it would infer Aerts would smash him if they fought again...third time lucky?

Mellor

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Care to actually present a counter argument?

That post was a counter to my previous.
So it hasn't changed.

Lesnar and Cain are both great wrestlers, one would exoect lesnar to come out on top due to the size, but the fact that Cain managed an escape by no means proves Lesnar isn't that good. Cain escaped and went back to striking, which kinda proves he didn't want to be on the ground with Lesnar.

cowzerp

Mellor wrote: »

That post was a counter to my previous.
So it hasn't changed.

Lesnar and Cain are both great wrestlers, one would exoect lesnar to come out on top due to the size, but the fact that Cain managed an escape by no means proves Lesnar isn't that good. Cain escaped and went back to striking, which kinda proves he didn't want to be on the ground with Lesnar.

If all things are even the bigger wrestler has the advantage, his wrestling is a lot got to do with sheer strenght and size where the other lads is more technical-Cain wanted to stand as he had massive advantage standing, less so if any on ground due to lesnars strenght and thelad has technique so can use it.

Lesnar while a respected wrestler is technically not unreal-average with great power, his shots do tend to look like rugby players in fairness.

MMAIRELANDFAN

cowzerp wrote: »

If all things are even the bigger wrestler has the advantage, his wrestling is a lot got to do with sheer strenght and size where the other lads is more technical-Cain wanted to stand as he had massive advantage standing, less so if any on ground due to lesnars strenght and thelad has technique so can use it.

Lesnar while a respected wrestler is technically not unreal-average with great power, his shots do tend to look like rugby players in fairness.

Lesnar is a wrestling machine and the way he rugby tackles work so that's no problem

He got into WWE due to his previous NCAA record and skills

War Lesnar

Richy06

Stellar insight, as always.

Mellor

cowzerp wrote: »

If all things are even the bigger wrestler has the advantage, his wrestling is a lot got to do with sheer strenght and size where the other lads is more technical-Cain wanted to stand as he had massive advantage standing, less so if any on ground due to lesnars strenght and thelad has technique so can use it.

Lesnar while a respected wrestler is technically not unreal-average with great power, his shots do tend to look like rugby players in fairness.

I don't disagree with any of that, nor do I think it changes my point.
I fully know that a portion of his wrestling advantage in MMA comes from power and size. But that's still makes him a great wrestler imo, technically or otherwise. We are talking about a match vrs Overeem here, Lesnar out wrestles him easily.
When he won the NCAA Div 1 title, he had no size advantage, the other guys were the same weight, but was probably physically stronger.