Built like a Badass

d'Oracle

the drifter wrote: »

Common sense told me Smolov was better....Common sense told me that for someone who was competing 5/3/1 as a between comp cycle was a stupid idea.For someone starting....maybe...but not as a betweek comp cycle...well maybe if your happy hitting 2.5kg pr's but I wasnt...

Erm.....So why the fúck did you do it in the first place then?
I mean if it was common sense that this would not prepare you adequately for your sport why waste 4 weeks not doing it?

If common sense told you to do Smolov, why the hell did you do 5/3/1?

the drifter

d'Oracle wrote: »

Erm.....So why the fúck did you do it then?

I made a mistake!

nilster

It was 14 months that I'll never get back!

Did you keep a log here or anyone else that I can read? I have a lot of questions I'd ask, but I'll spare you if you've already written it down elsewhere.

Thanks!

Inspector Coptoor

nilster wrote: »

It was 14 months that I'll never get back!

Did you keep a log here or anyone else that I can read? I have a lot of questions I'd ask, but I'll spare you if you've already written it down elsewhere.

Thanks!

I did keep a log here and on another site til recently.

I only had a log here for about 18 months so not a huge amount of 5/3/1 in it but it's still here somewhere if you search my posts for it.

The other site was shut down and over 4 years of logging was lost. Sad face

Any questions, fire away here or by pm or just search for 5/3/1 threads.

deadlybuzzman

Hanley wrote: »

YEah... he's such a selfish lover

No one hear who's done 5/3/1, save maybe 1 person has had a good exp on it.

now I feel special
As much as I like it I believe it to be just a programme to make good progress at increasing a persons overall level of strength in the 5-10rep range. Its definitely not something Id think would be suited to helping someones 1rm coming up to a competition.
Ill vary it and every few weeks do a few singles just to let my body get used to lifting the heavier weight and to see how it translates from a 5rm but thats only for the craic, the rep range for progress comes for me anyway at 5-9 reps. Hence it put it alongside starting strength as opposed to an actual powerlifting programme.
1 key thing though regardless of the programme is to buy into it, if you dont have confidence in it and dont think it will work then it wont-same as walking up to the bar for a 1rm and thinking youre not going to get it

blah88

Hanley wrote: »

In the interests of full disclosure, what did your bodyweight do?

I dieted on 5/3/1 and went backwards, but didn't lose a significant amount of weight that shoudl have been a causative factor.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/lmhmn/my_epic_fail_with_leangainsif/

I think you'll find that interesting. Apparently 5/3/1 isn't a good cutting routine. The first response is from Martin Berkhan. Makes sense. From all the reading I'v done and from personal experience the key to maintaining muscle/strength whilst dieting is to keep the intensity high, volume low. On 5/3/1 there are some weeks where you lift as little as 60% of your 1 rep max. This just gives your muscles a reason to disappear.

According to Lyle McDonald you could maintain strength/ size in any specific bodypart with as little as 1 set, once a week, as long as the intensity is high. I think 4-8 reps would be the best range to stay in.

nilster

Any questions, fire away

From the 5/3/1 discussions I've read so far (2008-2009), I feel like there are some common misconceptions/errors people make when starting the program. So my first question would be, do you feel like you succumbed to any of the following?

Going all out on all final works sets, every session, every week
Often skipping the deload week
Not starting as light as recommended
Starting light but adding more weight between cycles than called for
Doing more assistance volume than called for
Often making several large changes to the program rather than plugging away at one incarnation for awhile

Because it sounds like you're a competitive lifter (I am not), have you gone back and looked at 5/3/1 for Powerlifting too see if it offered any additional insight that might have helped you out?

I believe it to be just a programme to make good progress at increasing a persons overall level of strength in the 5-10rep range.

This wouldn't surprise me or necessarily bum me out.

Hanley

blah88 wrote: »

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/lmhmn/my_epic_fail_with_leangainsif/

I think you'll find that interesting. Apparently 5/3/1 isn't a good cutting routine. The first response is from Martin Berkhan. Makes sense. From all the reading I'v done and from personal experience the key to maintaining muscle/strength whilst dieting is to keep the intensity high, volume low. On 5/3/1 there are some weeks where you lift as little as 60% of your 1 rep max. This just gives your muscles a reason to disappear.

According to Lyle McDonald you could maintain strength/ size in any specific bodypart with as little as 1 set, once a week, as long as the intensity is high. I think 4-8 reps would be the best range to stay in.

Well Wendler originally pimped it as the program he used while dieting and do tonnes of hill sprints to get in shape...

I disagree with Lyle on his assertation to the extent that in a highly trained person it's just not possible to lose mass and maintain 100% strength. Now you won't lose EVERYTHING and high intensity is probably the best way to maximise retention, but it's alwyas hard to interpret what Lyle's saying unless oyu know his context.

deadlybuzzman

nilster wrote: »

This wouldn't surprise me or necessarily bum me out.

doesnt bum me out at all-quite the opposite, its great when you can see progress from week to week. A PR is a PR

Inspector Coptoor

nilster wrote: »

. So my first question would be, do you feel like you succumbed to any of the following?

Going all out on all final works sets, every session, every week

I would have been guilty of this for the simple reason that changes hadnt been made by Wendler at that time.

nilster wrote: »

Often skipping the deload week

Never skipped the deload week

nilster wrote: »

Not starting as light as recommended

No, I always started with a training max of 90% of what was then my current 1RM

nilster wrote: »

Starting light but adding more weight between cycles than called for

No.

nilster wrote: »

Doing more assistance volume than called for

No

nilster wrote: »

Often making several large changes to the program rather than plugging away at one incarnation for awhile

No, I stuck at it for 14 months without deviating.

nilster wrote: »

Because it sounds like you're a competitive lifter (I am not), have you gone back and looked at 5/3/1 for Powerlifting too see if it offered any additional insight that might have helped you out?

I have competed three times and I wouldnt be competing at a very high standard.
best lifts at 100kg are 155kg/107.5kg/215kg

and yes, I have gone back and looked at 5/3/1 for powerlifting but I wont be running it ever again myself.
Ive been there, done that, gone to a 5/3/1 seminar, met and chatted with Wendler, got a signed 5/3/1 book, got the ebook.
I really couldnt have tried it out any more.

I stand by my point that its a programme built either for natural people who are into GPP or lifters with chemical help looking to compete.

I dont think it can work for a raw competitive lifter.

nilster

Ha! Thanks for the thorough response! I appreciate you taking the time.

Hanley

How does 5/3/1 for PL differ from 5/3/1?

Inspector Coptoor

Hanley wrote: »

How does 5/3/1 for PL differ from 5/3/1?

essentially, its not so much 5/3/1 as 3/5/1

same idea of a 4 week cycle where week 4 is a deload.

IN week one, you work up to hit a 3+ for reps
In week two, you work up to a 5 for reps and only hit 5
In week 3, you work up to a 1+ for reps and (I think the %ages are slightly higher here so as to have a benefit in comp terms.

The rationale behind not going balls out on week 2 is that you recover from going balls out after week 1 while not emptying the tank completely for going balls out in week 3.

nilster

I feel a little guilty about this. I ended up finding this board because I was doing Built Like a Badass and had a hell of a time finding any discussion of the program, and now I feel like I've hijacked this with 5/3/1.

Inspector Coptoor

nilster wrote: »

I feel a little guilty about this. I ended up finding this board because I was doing Built Like a Badass and had a hell of a time finding any discussion of the program, and now I feel like I've hijacked this with 5/3/1.

The inital conversation ran its course and is still there if people want to talk about the BLABASS programme.

Dont feel guilty at all. I think its a great thing that these topics are coming up.
Beats the hell out of talking about where to get the cheapest protein and the cheapest dumbbells and the cheapest personal trainers away!

Hanley

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

essentially, its not so much 5/3/1 as 3/5/1

same idea of a 4 week cycle where week 4 is a deload.

IN week one, you work up to hit a 3+ for reps
In week two, you work up to a 5 for reps and only hit 5
In week 3, you work up to a 1+ for reps and (I think the %ages are slightly higher here so as to have a benefit in comp terms.

The rationale behind not going balls out on week 2 is that you recover from going balls out after week 1 while not emptying the tank completely for going balls out in week 3.

Makes sense in theory!

Inspector Coptoor

Hanley wrote: »

Makes sense in theory!

yeah, like Communism.

You willing to try it out?
Cause I sure aint!

dave80

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

essentially, its not so much 5/3/1 as 3/5/1

same idea of a 4 week cycle where week 4 is a deload.

IN week one, you work up to hit a 3+ for reps
In week two, you work up to a 5 for reps and only hit 5
In week 3, you work up to a 1+ for reps and (I think the %ages are slightly higher here so as to have a benefit in comp terms.

The rationale behind not going balls out on week 2 is that you recover from going balls out after week 1 while not emptying the tank completely for going balls out in week 3.

doesnt he also recommend to hit a couple of heavy single (95%ish) after the 3+ day and 1+

Inspector Coptoor

dave80 wrote: »

doesnt he also recommend to hit a couple of heavy single (95%ish) after the 3+ day and 1+

probably, I thought I had alluded to that on the 1 day, forgot about the three day, cheers Dave

nilster

Yeah, I think he adds heavy singles twice a week. Also BB curls appear as recommended assistance work out of nowhere!

Inspector Coptoor

curls help elbows

Curl often, curl well!

nilster

And does the biceps aid in the bench as well? I've seen that mentioned, but not explained a couple of times recently. Is it because the biceps crosses the shoulder and assists somewhat in raising the arm/forward flexion of the shoulder joint?

Dathai

Currently running 5/3/1 for my squat and press (I've stopped benching and running the magnusson/ortmayer routine for deads). I'm finding it fine at the moment as it's pretty straightforward as I'm able to get in, do the work sets and accessory stuff and I'm out in time for work.

Could anyone elaborate on why I should be going all out on the final sets? I've worked out what reps I need to hit on the specific days (eg: Week 1 is around 10-11 reps) to advance the following week or to the next cycle.

Would stopping the "all out" sets and replacing them with say an extra 3+ sets of 3/5 at the same weight be a better decision?

nilster

I've worked out what reps I need to hit on the specific days (eg: Week 1 is around 10-11 reps) to advance the following week or to the next cycle.

I'm not totally clear on what that means, sorry.

As far as "all out" sets, and I've just started this program, so I'm far from an expert, but it seems that you're actually intended to only do this once or twice a week. Not every session. For instance, after I completed Defranco's "Built Like a Badass," my Deadlift was way out in front of my squat even though I'd been doing squats and NOT Deadlifts for the 3 months I was on that program. So I've decided to make Squats the movement I target for my "all out" sets every week. Similarly, I enjoy Presses, but everyone talks about how long they take to progress, so I'm going to plan on going "all out" on those at least once or twice in my first few cycles, but not necessarily every week because I want to make sure I'm saving my best for Squats. For Pulls and Bench, if I'm having a great day and everything feels light, I might go all out on my top set, but I'm not planning on it beforehand.

Does that make sense? Anyone else have a different perspective.

Dathai

Sound. Figured I had to squeeze as many reps out on the final sets each week.

Thanks!

JonnyF

i've stopped using this programme for the last week or two. found I wasn't getting any stronger and was actually weaker in some lifts than I had been at the start.

using a more personalised programme now. Think BLAB is still a good tool but didn't really fit with my goals in weight training

dario28

JonnyF wrote: »

i've stopped using this programme for the last week or two. found I wasn't getting any stronger and was actually weaker in some lifts than I had been at the start.

using a more personalised programme now. Think BLAB is still a good tool but didn't really fit with my goals in weight training

What were your goals ?

Im on week 9 and have gone from struggling with 2 reps of 110kg on the bench in week 1 to 3 clean of 110kg this week

chances are you would get weaker in the likes of incline/decline bench cause its not really done for the 12 weeks

Hanley

JonnyF wrote: »

i've stopped using this programme for the last week or two. found I wasn't getting any stronger and was actually weaker in some lifts than I had been at the start.

using a more personalised programme now. Think BLAB is still a good tool but didn't really fit with my goals in weight training

It didn't fit your goal, which was presumably to get stronger?

JonnyF

Hanley wrote: »

It didn't fit your goal, which was presumably to get stronger?

pretty much. had a strength test in the rugby club and was down in a lot of my lifts. i was following the programme exactly but i seemed to have gone backwards so I've chucked it.

SanoVitae

You clearly need to try the Strong like a Strongass program instead...

Inspector Coptoor

JonnyF wrote: »

i seemed to have gone backwards so I've chucked it.

You chucked a programme 3 weeks into a 12 week programme?

Then you didn't do the programme and can't say whether it was good or bad cause you only did 25% of it

JonnyF

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

You chucked a programme 3 weeks into a 12 week programme?

Then you didn't do the programme and can't say whether it was good or bad cause you only did 25% of it

i got to week 8 on the programme when we had the strength tests and was disappointed with my results so i changed things up. it's not really a strength programme anyway so i'm not sure what I was expecting from it but knowing some of de franco's other stuff i assumed it would. it seems to be mainly aimed at people who aren't playing serious sport right now "washed up meatheads" or people who don't have massive amounts of time to commit to it.

it's my own fault, i'll be honest i really liked the name of it and it read very well but it just didn't work for me. i'm not knocking it for anyone else doing it, just didn't work for me.

i've got ws4sb on pdf and i plan on doing that this off season, it's a more intensive programme with a lot more focus on improving performance and strength so it'll be interesting to see how that goes. Moving clubs this summer too so won't be able to use the current S+C coach for my off season work, this will give me some structure. i'll do a log on it once I kick it off in April.

dario28

JonnyF wrote: »

it's not really a strength programme anyway so i'm not sure what I was expecting

it seems to be mainly aimed at people who aren't playing serious sport right now "washed up meatheads" or people who don't have massive amounts of time to commit to it.

Troll Alert !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If its not a strength program why does it get you to exceed your 1rm on week 12 ?

The aim of the program is to minimise time in the gym to 3 weights sessions a week so ya have time for other training

Are ya trolling or have ya actually read any of the intro or program or just a bit slow on the uptake ?

JonnyF

dario28 wrote: »

Troll Alert !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If its not a strength program why does it get you to exceed your 1rm on week 12 ?

The aim of the program is to minimise time in the gym to 3 weights sessions a week so ya have time for other training

Are ya trolling or have ya actually read any of the intro or program or just a bit slow on the uptake ?

no i'm not trolling.

in the intro Joe actually uses the phrase "washed up meatheads",

Look I'm not trying to rubbish the whole thing just giving my experience of it which was that it didn't really work for me that's all

Duck's hoop

JonnyF wrote: »

in the intro Joe actually uses the phrase "washed up meatheads"

I believe he's being what's known as 'tongue in cheek'.

JonnyF

Duck's hoop wrote: »

I believe he's being what's known as 'tongue in cheek'.

so was i, hence the parentheses. sorry if i've offended anyone.

Richie01

Could someone be kind enough to send me this programme.
Thanks


Thanks for the pm I'll give this a go

Mellor

dario28 wrote: »

Troll Alert !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If its not a strength program why does it get you to exceed your 1rm on week 12 ?
?

It's a general program with strength training elements, but its isn't a pure strength program. I see anything wrong pointing that out.

I'm currently doing a different Defranco program, i chose this one over BLABA as I elt it was more geared towards increasing 1RM, ot rather there was more room for adjustment to gear it towards that.

ScissorPaperRock

Are people generally feeling like they've pushed themselves a lot after the ME exercise?

I'm not really, and I'm afraid I might have underestimated my 1RM - I didn't test it, I just guessed. For the bench press, for instance, I can get more reps out in the last set than the numbers it says to do for the previous two sets.

I'm in week three at the moment, and am not sure if I should consider raising my estimation of my 1RM at this point. Mainly for the bench and squat.

nilster

On week 3, I got 7 reps on my last set of bench. My final reps on bench day went like this in order from week 1 through week 11: 5, 7, 7, 6, Deload, 11, 10, 10, 10, Deload, 1 (of course), and then the rep test in week 12.

I added about 25lbs. to my previous best. Also, I did Squats for Lower Day with similar rep results on the final sets, and when I completed the program my Deadlift had actually gone up quite a bit as well. Just my results, mind you, but my main point is you might not need to worry about getting high-reps.

BlueIsland

Finished Week One! Mother of devine jesus I thought those 100 push ups were gonna kill me tonight! Now in fairness I carrying more weight than I should so they like weighted push ups but they the toughest part of week one anyway IMO!

Inspector Coptoor

BlueIsland wrote: »

Finished Week One! Mother of devine jesus I thought those 100 push ups were gonna kill me tonight! Now in fairness I carrying more weight than I should so they like weighted push ups but they the toughest part of week one anyway IMO!

Good stuff!
Yeah, the 100 push ups are tough alright.

What weight are you? What time you get them done in?
I'm 100kg and got 7:20 in week 1, 5:28 in week 2 and 5:01 in week 3.

Just did Week 8, Day 1 this evenung.
Got 85kg x 10 in the bench.

BlueIsland

Am 107 KG!only really started lifting weights properly this year. was mucking about for few years, not really knowing what I was at ( not near knowing either or anything) but not following a programme! was going really well from Jan to June but got injured playing Gaa , the AC joint. Only really able back lifting in last month or so properly. Enjoted first week of the programme. Ive always been ****e at press ups..I actually couldnt get over my arms literally going from under me tonight trying to do the 100. I very nearly walked off after 70 but said fek it im be thick with myself when I got home. did it in 10 minutes, 30 seconds.

thehamo

BlueIsland wrote: »

Finished Week One! Mother of devine jesus I thought those 100 push ups were gonna kill me tonight! Now in fairness I carrying more weight than I should so they like weighted push ups but they the toughest part of week one anyway IMO!

Good your enjoying it. I'm Starting week 9 tomorrow and loving all the variation in exercises. Wait until you have to do the barbell push ups, 18 down to 1 as in drop a rep in each set until your left with 1 rep. I did the maths, 171 press ups all in all!

BlueIsland

well i know its all about progression but i physically nearly got sick at the thoughts of that!!

nilster

By the time I got to that part of the program, I actually found the BB push-ups to be far easier than the regular push-ups for time at the beginning. HOWEVER, when I went back to regular push-ups at the end of this program and afterwards, I found them significantly more difficult than the BB variation.

BlueIsland

Quick question..prob both asked here and in the PDF but said id take lazy option and ask. Moving onto Day 1 of week Two tomorow.The bench and db press numbers are stipulated. but for the supersets and the barbell complex do you keep same weight as week one??? (because its more sets of the barbell complex for example)...thanks in advance!

nilster

Don't have it in front of me, but don't the super-sets have a lower rep range week to week? If that is correct, then I always upped the weight unless I failed to get the prescribed reps in the previous week.
For the complexes, you could add weight, but here is the question I would ask myself: "how hard was the final set last week?" Because it will be even harder with the same weight this week.

BlueIsland

nilster wrote: »

Don't have it in front of me, but don't the super-sets have a lower rep range week to week? If that is correct, then I always upped the weight unless I failed to get the prescribed reps in the previous week.
For the complexes, you could add weight, but here is the question I would ask myself: "how hard was the final set last week?" Because it will be even harder with the same weight this week.

yup spot on, the rep ranges drop from 4x15 week 1 to 4x12 week two. just checked now. will up the superset weight. think ill leave the barbell complex though cos one extra set is added and i was lamped by the end of last one last week!

dario28

Week 11 - The new 1 rm test


Not sure if my weight has changed , but its prob a mix of shredding BF with the finishers and a little extra muscle
Week 1 weight 81 kgs
Week 11 weight 81.5 kgs


Week 1 - 1rm was 120kgs
so 90% was 108 rounded to 110kgs - struggled for 3 reps

Week 11 - went
60kgs @ 12 reps
80kgs @ 8 reps
100kgs @ 3 reps
110kgs @ 3 reps
115kgs @ 3 reps

Then went for new 1rm @ 122.5kgs and got 1 clean, 1 very slight spot and bit more of spot on 3rd

Overall I think my chest and shoulders benefited the most , If I start it again I would add a little more back/lats in

Great program though , it really makes my old routine seem so boring - not sure where to go next though , any suggestions ?