Leaving the catholic church

magicbastarder

Realtine wrote: »

I looked into this many years ago, but apparently you can't leave, or at least you couldn't then. But I was thinking if I were to be baptized into, say, a Mormon church would Rome still consider me one of theirs?

well, the mormons will try to baptise you without your permission, so it may be worth asking them can you become apostate to mormonism?

Realtine

Monty you keep repeating yourself. But I'm sure that if I died in the morning and my family didn't know my wishes they would give me a catholic burial without me having attend mass or confession or any of that since I was a teenager. I would forever regarded as catholic!

Monty.

Realtine wrote: »

Monty you keep repeating yourself. But I'm sure that if I died in the morning and my family didn't know my wishes they would give me a catholic burial without me having attend mass or confession or any of that since I was a teenager. I would forever regarded as catholic!

Why have you not told your family ? Ever heard of a will ? That's what they are for.

Monty.

dvpower wrote: »

I wonder how many 'real' Catholics there are in the country?

Somewhere closer to the weekly mass attendance figures I would have thought, seeing as being a Catholic is no longer fashionable. And the less pseudo Catholics the better.

kildare.17hmr

i Didnt know you could leave! Must do that myself

dvpower

Monty. wrote: »

Somewhere closer to the weekly mass attendance figures I would have thought, seeing as being a Catholic is no longer fashionable. And the less pseudo Catholics the better.

Given this and the demographic of those attending mass, I foresee a massive number of schools being transferred out of Catholic patronage.

Penn

Monty. wrote: »

Somewhere closer to the weekly mass attendance figures I would have thought, seeing as being a Catholic is no longer fashionable. And the less pseudo Catholics the better.

It was never fashionable

Monty.

Barrington wrote: »

It was never fashionable

Actually it was, many's a pseudo Irish Catholic tried very hard make sure they were seen. Thankfully most of them have flitted off elsewhere to the latest fashion.

Tayla

If a woman attempts to be ordained then she is automatically excommunicated....I might go down tomorrow and ask them to ordain me

Monty.

dvpower wrote: »

Given this and the demographic of those attending mass, I foresee a massive number of schools being transferred out of Catholic patronage.

And the Catholics on the board of management will decide what Catholic owned schools they no longer need, and what they will accept in return.

Delirium

that was social pressure to be seen as a "good catholic", it wasn't because it was fashionable.

Monty.

koth wrote: »

that was social pressure to be seen as a "good catholic", it wasn't because it was fashionable.

Now there is a social pressure to be seen as a non Catholic. Much better.

hairy sailor

some interesting reading on this thread,been thinking about leaving for years,so far i've just put down no religion on the last census form,i've just been ignoring the church the last 20 years but finding it hard to ignore what its stand's for now & what it stood for,would like to make it official now.I don't want to be associated with them even if it is on a bit of paper in thier record's.

yawha

Monty. wrote: »

Now there is a social pressure to be seen as a non Catholic. Much better.

I guess the census will show whether you're correct or not with this claim.

Monty.

yawha wrote: »

I guess the census will show whether you're correct or not with this claim.

Why, is there social pressure to impress the census officer ?

Caulego

magicbastarder wrote: »

you're missing one salient point; and i think it's in fact the elephant in your particular room of argument, even though you claim it is not; the catholic church claiming me as a member does not mean i am a member.

the church claiming me as a member does not in any way inhibit me to practice my religious beliefs.
the church in claiming me as a member does not inhibit my liberty.
it's no comment on whether the state endows a particular religion in any way; nor should it be. it is me the state asks to fill in my religion on the census, not the church.

Yes, you are right: it is the State asking you to fill in your religion on the census form, but the State operates under its Constitution, which is overseen by the influence generated in the belief in the Christian deity, called 'God'. The opening lines in the Constitution set the framework for the overarching and specific religious ethos of the nation, where it states: In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

The Most Holy Trinity is a deity...so a supposed republic under a deistic oversight is not a democracy, but a theocracy. Ireland, as a supposed republic, was assigned to the authority and overarching governance of the RCC via a Constitution that was slanted towards their way of thinking, which is a belief system that is enforced and ensured by dogma and rote obedience. Why do you think that they are so touchy about handing over governance of primary schools? The need to train people to believe things, so that they can depend of the flocks to comply and buy into their sort of thinking by way of legal manipulation and assumed authority.
The reason they ask what religion you are is so the Government can guage your general thinking and the collective mindset, knowing that people who have allegiance to a deity are more easily goverened than those who do not question, because they have been taught since childhood to believe stories that make them feel better, not think better. They then use this a baromoter as to how their attendant politicians and bankers can manipulate the general populace into buying into other belief systems, like borrowing money that they think wont have to be paid back, and make a mint in the process. They work on greed and fear, both of which they promote by the imagined rights that believers tend to think some god has given them. They simply can't work out that it's all about convincing you to surrender your thinking to promises of 'salvation' that cannot be backed up by anything but imagination, as the authority of gods is only an idea, and not a fact, but if you are trained to accept strange and contradictory ideas since childhood, you will probably not overcome the implanted reactionary ideas that were put into your mind when you had not real faculty of reason.
They are not particularly interested in you specifically, as you are not important as an individual, just like as with the banks, but they use the information to build policy around and on top of public perceptions, which are influenced by beliefs. Religion is essentially a form of politics, as it operates on the level of influence of the thinking of the people, thus lending itself to guage how best to sell ideas about self image, what is permissable etc, but not by reasoning and fact, but by wishful thinking, which always end up in boom and bust process, as it is driven by emotion, fear and lack of common sense.

It's not clear if you are still a Catholic who follows the laws of the Church, but if your name is listed as being a member of that body and you have been taught to accept their rules then you are a follower of that persuasion, as that is part of the rules of belonging to that club. Even if you no longer accept all their rules, and think that your current beliefs have not been formed by your initial ritual training, you are still a believer of a different colour, so you will still manage to convince yourself that you now have control your mind, as one belief is the same as another anyway: blinkered.

Unless you dissent from the continued use of your name as a number of that church, you lend your name to its collective actions by way of association. The RCC only exists as a power in Ireland for as long as people continue to support it, just like any agency.

Realtine

Monty. wrote: »

Why have you not told your family ? Ever heard of a will ? That's what they are for.

I have and they do. and it's in print.

Delirium

Monty. wrote: »

Now there is a social pressure to be seen as a non Catholic. Much better.

Hardly comparable to the way things were when people were pressured into being "good Catholics".

I've yet to hear of any women being told to quit their job, because that's what a good atheist would do.

Caulego

Realtine wrote: »

Monty you keep repeating yourself. But I'm sure that if I died in the morning and my family didn't know my wishes they would give me a catholic burial without me having attend mass or confession or any of that since I was a teenager. I would forever regarded as catholic!

That's a good and relevant point, for if you do not make it part of your written legal and expressed wishes not to be so buried, then the likelihood of your family following what they feel to be the proper way to make sure you are 'returned to the bosom of God' are very stong. It's another victory for God when even your dead body is claimed for him. Not making your wishes known is the whole issue here, as in the matter of the Irish people who live under a delusion that they live in a properly functioning democracy. it is up to you, but if you don't care then that's your choice. Not making a decision also has consequences by way of not changing anything from the way it was before.

Monty.

koth wrote: »

Hardly comparable to the way things were when people were pressured into being "good Catholics".

I've yet to hear of any women being told to quit their job, because that's what a good atheist would do.

It's not a Catholic teaching and never was.

Monty.

Realtine wrote: »

I have and they do. and it's in print.

Glad to here it, the last thing we would want is to bury you in the wrong place.

Delirium

Monty. wrote: »

It's not a Catholic teaching and never was.

never said it was, I was commenting on the attitudes that were common when people played Catholic and wanted to be seen as more pious than their neighbours.

Caulego

Monty. wrote: »

It's not a Catholic teaching and never was.

Allegedly, neither was women having to wear a hat or scarf in church so that God would not be troubled by the 'impure thoughts' of the lowly females of the species, which I saw being promoted and practiced until well into the mid 70's.
Many rote observances were promoted and not dissuaded by the RCC, so they became 'tradition', which basically means you do it because you feel you should or you might look like the odd one out.

Here's who St Paul, a murderer, thought about the subject in 1 Corinthians, 11:3

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5: but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6: For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.

Looks like all the Christian women should head to the hairdressers right away and have their locks shorn, or nip down to Pennys and buy a headscarf, and then get back home and obey their husbands......the brazen hussies.
I don't know what women with alopecia are supposed to do, but it doesn't look too good for them...:rolleyes:

Monty.

koth wrote: »

never said it was, I was commenting on the attitudes that were common when people played Catholic and wanted to be seen as more pious than their neighbours.

Now the same people play something else to be seen more pious than their neighbours, so what ?

Monty.

Caulego wrote: »

Allegedly, neither was women having to wear a hat or scarf in church so that God would not be troubled by the 'impure thoughts' of the lowly females of the species, which I saw being promoted and practiced until well into the mid 70's.
Many rote observances were promoted and not dissuaded by the RCC, so they became 'tradition', which basically means you do it because you feel you should or you might look like the odd one out.

Here's who St Paul, a murderer, thought about the subject in 1 Corinthians, 11:3

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5: but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6: For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.

Looks like all the Christian women should head to the hairdressers right away and have their locks shorn, or nip down to Pennys and buy a headscarf, and then get back home and obey their husbands......the brazen hussies.
I don't know what women with alopecia are supposed to do, but it doesn't look too good for them...:rolleyes:

Mods : Can I answer this here, is it on topic ?

Delirium

Monty. wrote: »

Now the same people play something else to be seen more pious than their neighbours, so what ?

My point is that when people were playing catholic it was worse than what you claim to be happening now. Mainly because you must do/say things to prove you're a good Catholic.

Being an atheist requires nothing of anyone in their day to day life. That being said I've yet to see atheism on a level comparable to the levels of Catholicism as they were when I was a kid.

Caulego

Monty. wrote: »

Now the same people play something else to be seen more pious than their neighbours, so what ?

It's not the particular act Monty, but the fact that is a trained response that is cult-ivated in the minds of the populace. Yesterday's headscarf is today's BMW...still based on notions of superority, which is an un-thinking, un-conscious reaction to feelings of inadequacy, which is what all religions teach, as all are beneath the feet of gods and their servant priests, who are already ready to 'put you on the right path', regardless of where it might blindly lead you.
Do you ever wonder why the Irish have been so easily sold ideas of grandeur without paying any cost, just like as in religion, when their previous developed sense of inferority, as indoctrinated by the Church over 1600 years, was going to predictably directed towards notions of 'Success at last - I am saved! I knew it would happen one day, if I believed hard enough!'. So dark the con of man indeed. Because we were trained to blindly believe, now all we can do is weep loudly and grieve.

Caulego

Monty. wrote: »

Mods : Can I answer this here, is it on topic ?

You can if you like Monty, but maybe you really don't wish to, for whatever reason, or lack thereof. The theme of the thread is about leaving the RCC, so the discussion on the various pressures that are exerted on members not to leave are completely relevant, due to the nature of how rote and traditional conditioning can inhibit the formation of reasoned and informed choices. However, that's just my opinion, for what it is worth.
The Mods can decide, and are free to communicate directly with me on the matter, as I am not afraid to weigh up my arguments in the light of fair judgement.

robindch

Monty. wrote: »

Can I answer this here, is it on topic?

Yep - as you wish, though it might fit well in another thread too.

magicbastarder

Caulego wrote: »

Yes, you are right:

you are jim corr and i claim my free alien visitation.