Leaving the catholic church

Doctor DooM

Monty. wrote: »

My adherence to the five precepts of the Church.

So who decides if you're adhering properly? And where did this billion number come from, and the claim about how many catholics there are in Ireland?

I'm sensing a somewhat scottish accent...

Penn

Caulego wrote: »

I agree, though if the practice of religion is a private and personal thing, why do the Government want or need to know how many of its population are of what faith? Cenus are held to collate information to form policy and Goverment, so what has a person's personal opinions got to do with anything?
Maybe there us a practical and logical reason for this, and I have asked the various census people who disctribute the forms over the years, but they don't actually seem to know, and seem surprised that I would ask. I mean what is to the Government that I might be a Roman Catholic, a Jew or and non-religionish or 'Jedi', as many people claim to be in previous census, as opposed to me being bald or blonde? Anyone?

Well one reason would be schools. A large number of non-Catholic families in one area would indicate that an Educate Together school would be required.

Penn

GarIT wrote: »

Does anyone know about being ex-communicated. In school were taught about all these people the commited a crime against the church and were permanently banned. Is is still possible to do this? What would i have to do to make them do this to me? I think my only other option is to change my name and deny ever having any assocation with the Catholic Church.

Being excommunicated doesn't mean you aren't a Catholic any more. I think it just means you can't receive the sacraments. You're still expected to attend Mass. Basically, even if you get excommunicated, you're still a Catholic, just a bad one

ISAW

koth wrote: »

Yes. I've official communication from the bishop of the diocese that I live in and the best they would do is make a note of my wish to defect, they couldn't log me as defected as that is no longer available.

The topic is nonsense.
You are well aware of the position
http://www.countmeout.ie/suspension/
quoting the church says

This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process.

that source goes on to say [for itself]

If you have received confirmation of your defection: we hope that these defections are valid but there is some doubt about this. This is totally beyond our control and is something only the Catholic Church can clarify.

It is nonsense. They are claiming that they accept the Church decision as to whether something is valid or not?

ISAW

GarIT wrote: »

Does anyone know about being ex-communicated. In school were taught about all these people the commited a crime against the church and were permanently banned. Is is still possible to do this? What would i have to do to make them do this to me? I think my only other option is to change my name and deny ever having any assocation with the Catholic Church.

And if you have casual sex with someone and a child is conceived and then you marry someone else and have children it could happen that one of your children ends up in a relationship with the other. Which use to be one of the a practical reasons for keeping baptismal records.

As pointed out excommunicated people are not banned. They are still members of the church. that are only barred from sacraments.

ISAW

Doctor DooM wrote: »

So who decides if you're adhering properly? And where did this billion number come from, and the claim about how many catholics there are in Ireland?

I'm sensing a somewhat scottish accent...

The church authorities decide through canon law.
The billion is from sources given in the thread e.g. census figures.
If you want to deny there are not 1.5 billion Muslims as well go ahead.
There are a tiny per centage of atheists though.

Delirium

ISAW wrote: »

The topic is nonsense.
You are well aware of the position
http://www.countmeout.ie/suspension/
quoting the church says

that source goes on to say [for itself]

It is nonsense. They are claiming that they accept the Church decision as to whether something is valid or not?

Yes it is nonsense that there is no longer any formal defection process for people to remove themselves from the membership of the RCC.

Of course countmeout have accept the RCCs decision, it's not as if they can make the vatican correct their membership list.

An informal defection is worth much since the RCC still count people as members even if they informally defected.

Doctor DooM

ISAW wrote: »

The church authorities decide through canon law.
The billion is from sources given in the thread e.g. census figures.
If you want to deny there are not 1.5 billion Muslims as well go ahead.
There are a tiny per centage of atheists though.

Incorrect: I have never been judged by an authority of the church.

You have yet to provide proof for the veracity of the statement you're making about censuses, whereas Koth has provided proof it's not the case.

I have never met people living in such la la land.

Delirium

just to add to what DooM said, when I contacted the RCC they regarded me as a Catholic even though I'd put down no religion in the census in 2006.

So they clearly aren't using census data or if they are they must be years behind accurate data.

ISAW

koth wrote: »

Yes it is nonsense that there is no longer any formal defection process for people to remove themselves from the membership of the RCC.

No it isn't. It is a fact!

Of course countmeout have accept the RCCs decision, it's not as if they can make the vatican correct their membership list.

The Vatican don't have membership lists! Except for numbers of adherents reported by every parish.

An informal defection is worth much since the RCC still count people as members even if they informally defected.

You are not paying attention! Although the act of formal defection from the Catholic Church has thus been abolished, de facto defection is of course still possible and does occur. They are removed from membership.

http://communio.stblogs.org/Omnium%20in%20mentem%20trans%20Haverstock.pdf

out of the new law
there seems to have arisen, at least obliquely, an advantage or even incentive to commit
apostasy for those in places where faithful catholics are few in number, or where unjust
marriage laws are in force that disciminate against citizens on account of their religion.
The new law also made return [to the Church] difficult especially for those baptized who
fervently wanted to contract a new canonically valid marriage after the failure of a prior
one.

ISAW

koth wrote: »

just to add to what DooM said, when I contacted the RCC they regarded me as a Catholic even though I'd put down no religion in the census in 2006.

So they clearly aren't using census data or if they are they must be years behind accurate data.

You are not paying attention! Their census data is about numbers. They do not keep names of people who declared atheist.

Delirium

ISAW wrote: »

No it isn't. It is a fact!

you don't think it's crazy that the RCC removed the ability to formally defect?

The Vatican don't have membership lists! Except for numbers of adherents reported by every parish.

So how did they know I was a Catholic? Why didn't they say, "sorry, mr.koth, but due to your lack of attendance at weekly mass, we marked you off the list of members."??

You are not paying attention! Although the act of formal defection from the Catholic Church has thus been abolished, de facto defection is of course still possible and does occur. They are removed from membership.

http://communio.stblogs.org/Omnium%20in%20mentem%20trans%20Haverstock.pdf

Right so, what do I have to do for the RCC to remove me as a member of the RCC?

magicbastarder

koth wrote: »

you don't think it's crazy that the RCC removed the ability to formally defect?

god no. they believe the body of a virgin who was impregnated by a deity, without consent, was assumed whole into heaven, so why would they balk at the logic of denying some paperwork?

robindch

ISAW wrote: »

They do not keep names of people who declared atheist.

Yes, because under the Vatican's rules, once you're a catholic, you're always a catholic. In the wonderful circumlocutions for which the Curia is well known, here's how they put it in their ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA:

The Vatican wrote:

It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

"Ontological bond" my ass! :rolleyes:

Monty. wrote:

Just don't turn up and you're not a member, simples.

Well, you learn something new every day, don't you

Monty.

robindch wrote: »

Yes, because under the Vatican's rules, once you're a catholic, you're always a catholic. In the wonderful circumlocutions for which the Curia is well known, here's how they put it in their ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA:"Ontological bond" my ass! :rolleyes:Well, you learn something new every day, don't you

Ye guys remind of peoples dumped girlfriends that just won't accept its over and are still hanging around outside the house of their ex. whinging and crying about them, get on with your own lives.

[-0-]

Monty. wrote: »

Ye guys remind of peoples dumped girlfriends that just won't accept its over and are still hanging around outside the house of their ex. whinging and crying about them, get on with your own lives.

TBH the Vatican is that girlfriend that just won't let you go. The bond can't be broken my left testicle. Let them consider you a catholic if they want lads, it makes them feel more vindicated and worthy as an organisation. However the simple fact is that you're not. Don't worry about it.

Doctor DooM

Monty. wrote: »

Ye guys remind of peoples dumped girlfriends that just won't accept its over and are still hanging around outside the house of their ex. whinging and crying about them, get on with your own lives.

I'd like to, but my ex girlfriend (who has SERIOUS hang ups about sex, and has been dumped by loads of people for lying) keeps telling me because we were together once, I still belong to her.

And I now have her new boyfriend telling me I'm wrong and she's not doing it because she loves him now.

Even though she's doing it right in front of his face.

Galvasean

Oh can't you see......................

You belong to me......................

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

"Ontological bond" my ass!

Careful now, the priests will hear you

robindch

Monty. wrote: »

robindch wrote:

Monty. wrote:

Just don't turn up and you're not a member, simples.

The Vatican wrote:

It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

Well, you learn something new every day, don't you?

Ye guys remind of peoples dumped girlfriends that just won't accept its over and are still hanging [...yadda, yadda...]

Should be the forum tagline -- "Atheists -- Helping The Religious Know Their Religions"

ISAW

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'd like to, but my ex girlfriend (who has SERIOUS hang ups about sex, and has been dumped by loads of people for lying)

If you don't respect her views on sex and she dumped you because of it then dont blame her.
And "loads of people" didnt dump her.
Here is cso 2006 figures ( the ones people said they trust)
Ireland has 3,706,683 Irish people
of them 95.2 per cent claim to be Christian

Last year ( 2008) 229 people formally defected from the Church through the Archdiocese of Dublin. 312 have done so, so far this year. ( 2009)

keeps telling me because we were together once, I still belong to her.

No she doesn't! But given you have inalienable rights as an Irish citizen ( i.e. you can't remove them which you apparently seem to think is wrong) if you became an Indian citizen and renounced Irish citizenship the Irish State might not know. It isn't a case of the Irish State trying to "fiddle the stats" to hide a few hundred cases in four million!

The whole argument of "the church won't allow me not to be a member" is a nonsense since the people saying it don't accept the authority of the Church to allow them to do something or not anyway!

ISAW

koth wrote: »

Yes it is nonsense that there is no longer any formal defection process for people to remove themselves from the membership of the RCC.

You don't make Church law. You have left it! You can't then demand they make laws for people based on the principle that such laws should appl;y to you who does not accept the validity of that law in the first place!

Of course countmeout have accept the RCCs decision, it's not as if they can make the vatican correct their membership list.

They don't have a membership list!

An informal defection is worth much since the RCC still count people as members even if they informally defected.

I assume you meant "isn't worth much". Isn't worth much to whom? To you? So you are saying the organisation you have left should make rules based on the values of the people who left it?

But they do count membership every year. they just don't issue people with annual certificates of membership or certificates of non membership. You do not need Vatican permission to leave! Why do you keep demanding that you should have formal Vatican approval of your leaving the Church?

Delirium

ISAW wrote: »

If you don't respect her views on sex and she dumped you because of it then dont blame her.
And "loads of people" didnt dump her.
Here is cso 2006 figures ( the ones people said they trust)
Ireland has 3,706,683 Irish people
of them 95.2 per cent claim to be Christian

Well based on the five precepts of the Catholic church, which if you don't abide by you're no longer a Catholic, that figure is wrong by a minimum of 1 million people

Last year ( 2008) 229 people formally defected from the Church through the Archdiocese of Dublin. 312 have done so, so far this year. ( 2009)

And none have formally defected this year as it's no longer available. It was good it was there for a time, but that doesn't help anyone defect today.

No she doesn't! But given you have inalienable rights as an Irish citizen ( i.e. you can't remove them which you apparently seem to think is wrong) if you became an Indian citizen and renounced Irish citizenship the Irish State might not know. It isn't a case of the Irish State trying to "fiddle the stats" to hide a few hundred cases in four million!

Then why won't the RCC amend their records to reflect the fact that people are no longer members of the church?

The whole argument of "the church won't allow me not to be a member" is a nonsense since the people saying it don't accept the authority of the Church to allow them to do something or not anyway!

It's not that the church won't let us leave the church, it's that the RCC won't correct their membership list to reflect the numbers that have ceased to be members.

Delirium

ISAW wrote: »

You don't make Church law. You have left it! You can't then demand they make laws for people based on the principle that such laws should appl;y to you who does not accept the validity of that law in the first place!

Never said I make church law. I'm not making any demands. I'm just pointing out the massive error in numbers reported by the RCC regarding membership.

They don't have a membership list!

Then they have no way to have an accurate number of members in the church.

I assume you meant "isn't worth much". Isn't worth much to whom? To you? So you are saying the organisation you have left should make rules based on the values of the people who left it?

Yes to me. They had formal defection and they suspended the service, so all I'm asking is they reactivate it. They made the rule that allows it, and got antsy when people started to use it in ever growing numbers.

But they do count membership every year. they just don't issue people with annual certificates of membership or certificates of non membership. You do not need Vatican permission to leave! Why do you keep demanding that you should have formal Vatican approval of your leaving the Church?

Never said I need their permission to leave :rolleyes: I said I want confirmation that I'm no longer considered a member, which based on communication with a bishop last I still am even though I left the church 15 years ago.

I'm asking that the RCC respect the choice I made, how is it so difficult for you to understand that??

ISAW

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Incorrect: I have never been judged by an authority of the church.

How do you know? You were never a member of the Church?
The church authorities decide on their own rules through canon law.
The billion is from sources given in the thread e.g. census figures.
e.g means "for example"
If you want to deny there are not 1.5 billion Muslims as well go ahead.
There are a tiny per centage of atheists though.

You have yet to provide proof for the veracity of the statement you're making about censuses, whereas Koth has provided proof it's not the case.

Provided proof that what is not the case?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74410147&postcount=80

Here is a website with official and non official sources.
If you note any errors feel free to correct them.
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/sources.html

The actual figures of adherents from that site are here
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/sc1.html

Note "percent Catholic" is a column in the table.
The table above is generated with the most recent data available for each diocese. Dioceses with incomplete data may be excluded which will lower the totals for its Country.
I listed the sources above. If you have a problem with any of them feel free to point it out.

I have never met people living in such la la land.

If you think the stats from the CSO or church is wrong feel free to point it out. Hand waving references to la la land are pointless. You have figures from 159 countries above.

Ireland is listed as 76.11 per cent Catholic. This would include Northern Ireland ( about 40 % Protestant ) which skews it a lot. and also there is another 5-10 % Protestant to add to the Republic figure. So don't think this figure for Catholic disagrees with the 95% CSO figure for Christian. Atheist on the other hand are still in the lower single digits. 1-4 %

ISAW

koth wrote: »

Never said I make church law. I'm not making any demands. I'm just pointing out the massive error in numbers reported by the RCC regarding membership.

Fair enough. what "massive error"?

You don't decide who is in or out

they have no way to have an accurate number of members in the church.

They do. and one can do statistical tests showing Catholic Church correlation with CSO figures.

Yes to me. They had formal defection and they suspended the service, so all I'm asking is they reactivate it.

Ask away. You don't make the rules. And you have been shown they made that rule to facilitate people getting married to non Catholics or others who rejoined the Church. It was not a demand for formal certificates from atheists that caused them to revise the procedure.

They made the rule that allows it, and got antsy when people started to use it in ever growing numbers.

No they didn't! They changed it for different reasons. Just because it happened around the same time that atheists demanded to be formally kicked out doen not mean the atheists caused the change! And what if atheists did cause the change? so what? You have no right to demand a formal kicking out ceremony! Live with it.

Never said I need their permission to leave :rolleyes: I said I want confirmation that I'm no longer considered a member, which based on communication with a bishop last I still am even though I left the church 15 years ago.

If he thinks you have a soul and you don't believe you have one there is no requirement for him to write you a letter saying he accepts you believe differently. But I have not clearly seen wher the Bishop says you still are a Catholic even if you don't accept that.
Where in the Bishop's letter does it say that?

I'm asking that the RCC respect the choice I made, how is it so difficult for you to understand that??

But they do respect you. they also believe you have a soul. They are not going to give you an official letter saying you have no soul or saying that they respect you believe you have no soul. Do you understand that?

ISAW

koth wrote: »

Well based on the five precepts of the Catholic church, which if you don't abide by you're no longer a Catholic, that figure is wrong by a minimum of 1 million people

Which could also explain why the CSO have a list of 95% people in the Republc claiming to be Christian but the catholic Church themselves have 77% Catholic population in Ireland?

But of course you accept the CSO over the Church don't you?

And none have formally defected this year as it's no longer available. It was good it was there for a time, but that doesn't help anyone defect today.

The availability of formal defection makes no difference whatsoever to the validity of someone defecting.

Then why won't the RCC amend their records to reflect the fact that people are no longer members of the church?

And you evidence they don't is?
As far as I am aware if there is a change in membership the Church will note that.

It's not that the church won't let us leave the church, it's that the RCC won't correct their membership list to reflect the numbers that have ceased to be members.

For the umpeenteenth time They don't have a membership list But they do take note of the number of members.

Dades

ISAW wrote: »

Which could also explain why the CSO have a list of 95% people in the Republc claiming to be Christian but the catholic Church themselves have 77% Catholic population in Ireland?

But of course you accept the CSO over the Church don't you?

I accept that both church and CSO figures are bollocks.

As I attempted (unsuccessfully) to explain to you before in a Politics thread, 20% of the population in under 14, so I what their mammies put them down as in the census is never going to be accurate. How many are so small as to not even understand the concept of being catholic, how many know or care nothing about it, and how many are told to suck it up?

MagicMarker

ISAW wrote: »

For the umpeenteenth time They don't have a membership list But they do take note of the number of members.

Ah yes, census Sunday, still waiting on those figures.

Delirium

ISAW wrote: »

Which could also explain why the CSO have a list of 95% people in the Republc claiming to be Christian but the catholic Church themselves have 77% Catholic population in Ireland?

But of course you accept the CSO over the Church don't you?

nope, mainly for the reasons Dades mentioned.

The availability of formal defection makes no difference whatsoever to the validity of someone defecting.

True, but it does mean that the RCC don't have a procedure for people to remove themselves from the list of members.

And you evidence they don't is?
As far as I am aware if there is a change in membership the Church will note that.

A letter from a bishop confirming I'm still a member and they wouldn't remove my name from their members list as formal defection isn't available currently.

For the umpeenteenth time They don't have a membership list But they do take note of the number of members.

But how do they know the numbers contain only Catholics? For example, if a jewish friend for whatever reason goes to mass with a Catholic friend on a day where members are counted, he will be counted as Catholic because they didn't do more than just count heads.

This makes their numbers sound even more suspect if they don't have a list of members.

The Mad Hatter

MagicMarker wrote: »

Ah yes, census Sunday, still waiting on those figures.

oldrnwisr

ISAW wrote: »

The actual figures of adherents from that site are here
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/sc1.html

Note "percent Catholic" is a column in the table.
The table above is generated with the most recent data available for each diocese. Dioceses with incomplete data may be excluded which will lower the totals for its Country.
I listed the sources above. If you have a problem with any of them feel free to point it out.

The figures listed seem to be at least as out-of-date as the 2006 census. While most of the dioceses list statistics for 2006, the figures for Meath, Waterford and Lismore, Limerick, Raphoe and Ossory are only available up to 2004. The summary table for dioceses lists the percentage catholics derived from the last time period common to all dioceses, 2004. So the church's own figures are 2 years more out of date than the last census which in itself is not likely to be an accurate picture of Ireland in 2011.


There are also a number of unanswered questions regarding the tabulation of these church figures:

• How, specifically, is this data collected? Is there an independent counter or does the priest just do an air hostess type headcount?
• Are the statistics gathered by the church audited and if so by whom?
• What kind of data protection controls are in place regarding these statistics?

Penn

ISAW wrote: »

For the umpeenteenth time They don't have a membership list But they do take note of the number of members.

What we are saying is that how can the Church claim to have XXXX number of members when many of those members:

a) are lapsed
b) are underage and haven't yet decided for themselves
c) wish to no longer be counted as a member of the Church
d) don't keep the 5 precepts
e) simply no longer care about religion


Do you think over a billion people all went to Mass on "Census Sunday"?

oldrnwisr

[Embedded Image Removed]


You have made reference to this "Census Sunday" conducted by the church. To that end you have posted links to this catholic hierarchy website. However, I can find no links on the sources page or anywhere else to refer to this census process in this country. Similarly, I cannot find after numerous permutations on google any reference in any parish newsletter, blog or news article to this census. I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but all the same I would expect at least some reference in some catholic website somewhere, even if it's just a footnote on a parish newsletter that reminds everyone to be at mass next sunday because it's census sunday. So if possible, ISAW, can you please provide links referencing this census process.

I have found one reference to an English Church census conducted in 2005 by an agency called Christian Research. Having only had responses from half of the churches in England, however, their figures are unreliable as a census. I cannot find any similar process here.

fitz0

dixiefly wrote: »

Who gets a degree after water being sprinkled on their head and no study etc etc????

Enlighten me as I have tried to find what you are referring to and cant find anything.

I seem to recall a reference by ISAW along the lines of "it can be thought that you get a degree in Christianity at baptism." Can't find it now whether through ninja edit or my imagining of it. But the inference is still present in this post.

Monty.

Dades wrote: »

I accept that both church and CSO figures are bollocks.

So perhaps then you can supply us with the figures you claim are accurate. . from an accurate source . . . .
(PS plucking them out of your arse is not one)

ISAW

koth wrote: »

the RCC don't have a procedure for people to remove themselves from the list of members.

How could they have a procedure for removing people from a list they don't have in the first place!

A letter from a bishop confirming I'm still a member and they wouldn't remove my name from their members list as formal defection isn't available currently.

Where does the bishop's letter say you are a member?
How can they remove your name from a list which does not exist?

But how do they know the numbers contain only Catholics? For example, if a jewish friend for whatever reason goes to mass with a Catholic friend on a day where members are counted, he will be counted as Catholic because they didn't do more than just count heads.

True and if your Jewish friend puts down "Roman Catholic" in the census form they wont know he is a Jew either will they?

This makes their numbers sound even more suspect if they don't have a list of members.

The Irish State does not have a list of citizens but I trust the population estimates which come from diverse sources.

ISAW

oldrnwisr wrote: »

The figures listed seem to be at least as out-of-date as the 2006 census.

I think the 2006 census is still valid and useable dats.
If you think the roman Catholic membership ios out by say more then five percent then feel free to correct them.
In Ireland you are talking about maybe a few hundred people in five million. It is a tiny tiny number. Atheists number a few percent. why don't you go and put together a membership list of atheists? You wont need much paper.

While most of the dioceses list statistics for 2006, the figures for Meath, Waterford and Lismore, Limerick, Raphoe and Ossory are only available up to 2004.

So what? You think half of them disappeared since 2004 do you?

The summary table for dioceses lists the percentage catholics derived from the last time period common to all dioceses, 2004. So the church's own figures are 2 years more out of date than the last census which in itself is not likely to be an accurate picture of Ireland in 2011.

The Summary table is not an official church source. It is from official sources which are updated annually. You can write to any diocese and ask their numbers. I have no reason to believe that the numbers given are out by say more than 5 % of their value.

There are also a number of unanswered questions regarding the tabulation of these church figures:

• How, specifically, is this data collected? Is there an independent counter or does the priest just do an air hostess type headcount?

Varies.

[*]Are the statistics gathered by the church audited and if so by whom?

By them.

[*]What kind of data protection controls are in place regarding these statistics?

[/quote]

None are necessary. It is not a legal requirement. But if you think it should be protected fair enough. I won't bother telling you all the other sources I could get for you. Get them yourself.

ISAW

Dades wrote: »

I accept that both church and CSO figures are bollocks.

As I attempted (unsuccessfully) to explain to you before in a Politics thread,

sorry I have no access to politics since among other things I complained about a Atheist ministers and how his family and his past IRA links were no to be discussed but a non atheist's family were fair game.

20% of the population in under 14, so I what their mammies put them down as in the census is never going to be accurate. How many are so small as to not even understand the concept of being catholic, how many know or care nothing about it, and how many are told to suck it up?

How many of the people who put down RC in the census were children 40 years agoi and 20 years ago and ten years ago. Funny how of all those people who did "not even understand the concept of being catholic" who now are old enough 95 % happened to pout down "Christian" isn't it?

Delirium

ISAW wrote: »

How could they have a procedure for removing people from a list they don't have in the first place!

If they don't have a list, why offer defections?

Where does the bishop's letter say you are a member?
How can they remove your name from a list which does not exist?

Well he said they have my name listed in a file and they would make a note in it that I wish to defect.

True and if your Jewish friend puts down "Roman Catholic" in the census form they wont know he is a Jew either will they?

But that would be a choice by him/her to misinform, the headcount at the church is a result of priests assuming everyone in the building is a Catholic.

The Irish State does not have a list of citizens but I trust the population estimates which come from diverse sources.

For people born in Ireland, it most definitely does. Birth, education, medical and various other bits of data on the citizens. People not born in Ireland but living here will have employment or social welfare records and possibly medical records.

Add to that, we have the census data. So the state has a much more comprehensive way of documenting the citizens in the country.

ISAW

oldrnwisr wrote: »

You have made reference to this "Census Sunday" conducted by the church. To that end you have posted links to this catholic hierarchy website.

Yes each diocese conducts a survey and compiles data. That website uses such data . It isnt an official website of the church. It also lists the members of the Hierarchy.

However, I can find no links on the sources page or anywhere else to refer to this census process in this country.

It is quite simple. Each parish counts have many come to mass on a Sunday.

Similarly, I cannot find after numerous permutations on google any reference in any parish newsletter, blog or news article to this census.

LOL! If it isnt on google it must not exist!
You think I am lying about Census Sunday?

I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but all the same I would expect at least some reference in some catholic website somewhere, even if it's just a footnote on a parish newsletter that reminds everyone to be at mass next sunday because it's census sunday. So if possible, ISAW, can you please provide links referencing this census process.

Yes. What is your local diocese?
Go and write to them and ask them.

I have found one reference to an English Church census conducted in 2005 by an agency called Christian Research. Having only had responses from half of the churches in England, however, their figures are unreliable as a census. I cannot find any similar process here.

Go and ask. I already have people demanding data protection.
So you think I am making it all up?
Hint: Try using words like Annuario Pontificio
Hint 2: Try going to a libriary and using thoise words and asking about a system called "inter Library loans" You might not have heard about this system either being so reliant on Google It means your local library can get a copy of any book in the world.

But maybe you think the whole thing is a fake and the Church and others are lying?

Dades

Monty. wrote: »

So perhaps then you can supply us with the figures you claim are accurate. . from an accurate source . . . .
(PS plucking them out of your arse is not one)

I can only cast doubt on official statistics I'm afraid! I could pull some out of my arse but what'd be the point in that?!

That said, the Boards.ie polls make interesting reading - if only to get stats on the still with mammy generation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=15082
66% Secular/Non-Religious/Atheist/Agnostic?

ISAW wrote: »

How many of the people who put down RC in the census were children 40 years agoi and 20 years ago and ten years ago. Funny how of all those people who did "not even understand the concept of being catholic" who now are old enough 95 % happened to pout down "Christian" isn't it?

There's a reason religious education is frequently described as indoctrination. The information age is fortunately making this less sticky.

ISAW

koth wrote: »

If they don't have a list, why offer defections?

The Church doesn't offer defections! People like you chose to defect.
It does not have a list of people who dont chose to defect.
But if you demand all the defectors in your diocese are kept on a list I'm sure they might assist you.

Well he said they have my name listed in a file and they would make a note in it that I wish to defect.

If I was you i would be complaining about them have a list of all the anti Cathoilics! Maybe they are just trying to get you all together so they can exterminate you eh?

But that would be a choice by him/her to misinform, the headcount at the church is a result of priests assuming everyone in the building is a Catholic.

I think that Christians Muslims or Jews could honestly care less in the main about whether atheists think they are making up their membership numbers. Why dont you go and help the poor or do something a church does instead of getting anal in your coffee group meetings about whether the Church give you an official ceremony to leave it?

For people born in Ireland, it most definitely does. Birth, education, medical and various other bits of data on the citizens.

Not all in the one place. The data is there alright bit there is no single "list of citizens"!

People not born in Ireland but living here will have employment or social welfare records and possibly medical records.

Int he Department of Enterprise, family affairs, health and even aliens and refugee info with Justice or foreign affairs. All that data is not in the same database. In fact at one time the tax people had 11,000 more people paying tax working in the Health service than the Figure the minioster of Health gave for the numbers his own department had for health workers!

Add to that, we have the census data. So the state has a much more comprehensive way of documenting the citizens in the country.

The church does not need to know your health refugee status or anything else just to know whether you are a Catholic attending mass or not. It has its own very efficient bureaucracy called "The Vatican" which is slow but about 1,000 staff administer 1.2 billion Catholics!

ISAW

Dades wrote: »

I can only cast doubt on official statistics I'm afraid! I could pull some out of my arse but what'd be the point in that?!

So you havent got any versue published statistics.
Well I think I know whaqt way I would lean

That said, the Boards.ie polls make interesting reading - if only to get stats on the still with mammy generation:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=15082
66% Secular/Non-Religious/Atheist/Agnostic?

Yep most of the posters are atheist so therefore you must be right!

In fact atheism is a tiny minority!

The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2008, was a random digit-dialed telephone survey of 54,461 American residential households in the contiguous United States. The 1990 sample size was 113,723; 2001 sample size was 50,281.

http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/

http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/publications/american-nones-the-profile-of-the-no-religion-population/

Nones= no religion.
A subset of these are "atheist"
The people who say "there is no god" Page 11 Figure 1.13

Percentage = TWO PERCENT of US Adults.

There's a reason religious education is frequently described as indoctrination. The information age is fortunately making this less sticky.

Yeah but you seem to have a problem with accepting properly conducted peer reviewed research as compared to the popular opinion of a 66 per cent declared atheist bias!

oldrnwisr

ISAW wrote: »

I think the 2006 census is still valid and useable dats.
If you think the roman Catholic membership ios out by say more then five percent then feel free to correct them.
In Ireland you are talking about maybe a few hundred people in five million. It is a tiny tiny number. Atheists number a few percent. why don't you go and put together a membership list of atheists? You wont need much paper.

Valid based on what?

The 2006 census shows a total population of 4,239,848.
Of this the RC population is 3,681,446 or 86.83%
The number of "no religion" is 186,318 or 4.39%

Compared with 2002, this is a population increase of 8.24%
The RC population grew by 6.32% but decreased by 1.57% when measured as a fraction of total population.
The "no religion" category grew by 34.76% or 0.86% when measured as a fraction of total population.

Interestingly, however, the percentage change in all three categories between 2002 and 2006 is approximately 47% of the change between 1961 and 1991 indicating an accelerating trend. On this basis, I would suspect that the 2011 figures will be markedly different than the 2006 figures.

Added to that the fact that Ferns had only just been published in October 2005 before the April 2006 census, I think that the number of people willing to stand up and be counted as catholics is probably down by a larger percentage than has been seen in at least 50 years.

Source data: Population classed by religion for relevant censuses 1881-2006

ISAW wrote: »

So what? You think half of them disappeared since 2004 do you?

No, but they're hardly up-to-date figures, are they. What happened to the other years figures if they're counted at least once a year?

ISAW wrote: »

The Summary table is not an official church source. It is from official sources which are updated annually. You can write to any diocese and ask their numbers.

You're the one making the claim about this church census, back it up with source data.

ISAW wrote: »

Varies.

How do you know? Any examples?

ISAW wrote: »

I won't bother telling you all the other sources I could get for you. Get them yourself.

So you're not willing to back up your own bogus assertion. Figures.

oldrnwisr

ISAW wrote: »

Yes each diocese conducts a survey and compiles data. That website uses such data . It isnt an official website of the church. It also lists the members of the Hierarchy.

So the church doesn't maintain any official accurate records of membership?

ISAW wrote: »

LOL! If it isnt on google it must not exist!
You think I am lying about Census Sunday?

In a word, yes.

If not, then you should be easily able to support your assertions.

ISAW wrote: »

Yes. What is your local diocese?
Go and write to them and ask them.

Since you're the one making the claim, why don't you ask your local diocese and publish the response so we can see.

ISAW wrote: »

So you think I am making it all up?
Hint: Try using words like Annuario Pontificio

I did. First result was this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annuario_Pontificio

which referenced the global catholic population as having increased between 2007 and 2008. The source for this quote was this:

http://www.zenit.org/article-28425?l=english

which notes:

"In 2008 there were 1.166 billion baptized Catholics worldwide, an increase of 19 million (up 1.7%). Taking into account the increase in the world’s population to 6.7 billion, there is a slight growth in the percentage of Catholics who make up the global population (from 17.33% to 17.40%)."

which suggests that the Church is in fact using baptismal records as the basis for saying there are a billion catholics, giving the lie to your entire argument.

mikhail

oldrnwisr wrote: »

...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annuario_Pontificio

which referenced the global catholic population as having increased between 2007 and 2008. The source for this quote was this:

http://www.zenit.org/article-28425?l=english

which notes:

"In 2008 there were 1.166 billion baptized Catholics worldwide, an increase of 19 million (up 1.7%). Taking into account the increase in the world’s population to 6.7 billion, there is a slight growth in the percentage of Catholics who make up the global population (from 17.33% to 17.40%)."

which suggests that the Church is in fact using baptismal records as the basis for saying there are a billion catholics, giving the lie to your entire argument.

It doesn't suggest that the catholic church is doing that, it outright proves it.

Delirium

ISAW wrote: »

The Church doesn't offer defections! People like you chose to defect.
It does not have a list of people who dont chose to defect.
But if you demand all the defectors in your diocese are kept on a list I'm sure they might assist you.

Not now they don't, but they did allow formal defections and noted in peoples baptismal file that the person had defected.

If I was you i would be complaining about them have a list of all the anti Cathoilics! Maybe they are just trying to get you all together so they can exterminate you eh?

I don't want to be a member of the RCC, and now I'm anti-Catholic? I guess you must only have Catholics and anti-Catholics as the only two possibilities

I think that Christians Muslims or Jews could honestly care less in the main about whether atheists think they are making up their membership numbers. Why dont you go and help the poor or do something a church does instead of getting anal in your coffee group meetings about whether the Church give you an official ceremony to leave it?

wow. you just went right to insulting, didn't ya?

Not all in the one place. The data is there alright bit there is no single "list of citizens"!

But the data exists, and that's my whole point. Decentralised computer data isn't a big deal.

Int he Department of Enterprise, family affairs, health and even aliens and refugee info with Justice or foreign affairs. All that data is not in the same database. In fact at one time the tax people had 11,000 more people paying tax working in the Health service than the Figure the minioster of Health gave for the numbers his own department had for health workers!

And how did they know that? because they had lists to cross-check. The list system works \o/

The church does not need to know your health refugee status or anything else just to know whether you are a Catholic attending mass or not. It has its own very efficient bureaucracy called "The Vatican" which is slow but about 1,000 staff administer 1.2 billion Catholics!

And you confirm that they're only marking mass attendance with their "census".

and as oldrnwisr has shown, they use baptism records to determine membership numbers, just like I said they would.

MagicMarker

oldrnwisr wrote: »

which notes:

"In 2008 there were 1.166 billion baptized Catholics worldwide, an increase of 19 million (up 1.7%). Taking into account the increase in the world’s population to 6.7 billion, there is a slight growth in the percentage of Catholics who make up the global population (from 17.33% to 17.40%)."

which suggests that the Church is in fact using baptismal records as the basis for saying there are a billion catholics, giving the lie to your entire argument.

Caulego

Monty. wrote: »

Ye guys remind of peoples dumped girlfriends that just won't accept its over and are still hanging around outside the house of their ex. whinging and crying about them, get on with your own lives.

Talking from experience Monty?