Cannonball Run in the Leaf

Sesshoumaru

ottostreet wrote: »

I don't know any Nissan Leaf performance variants.

http://www.videootube.com/2011/08/nissan-leaf-electric-sport-car-from.html

Lord Derpington

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

http://www.videootube.com/2011/08/nissan-leaf-electric-sport-car-from.html

That look class!
If they sold those at a 1/2 decent price I bet EVs would take off a lot quicker.

Pity there isn't a Tesla Roadster in the race

Big Nasty

greenfly wrote: »

There is actually LINK
I very much doubt they are widely available though, I just googled Dacia performance

ottostreet

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

http://www.videootube.com/2011/08/nissan-leaf-electric-sport-car-from.html

See, now that's what should be in the Cannonball run, not an ugly Tiida look-a-like that just happens to be powered differently

n97 mini

-Chris- wrote: »

That still seems frustrating to me, you can get from Dublin to Galway in a touch over 2 hours now, so having to stop for 30 mins is actually a significant delay.

130 miles in 2 hours averages 65 mph. A Focus 1.4 will do what, 35mpg at that speed, costing about €25 each way. The Leaf will do it for less than €2.

€46 an hour is a decent salary.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

130 miles in 2 hours averages 65 mph. A Focus 1.4 will do what, 35mpg at that speed, costing about €25 each way. The Leaf will do it for less than €2.

€46 an hour is a decent salary.

A company is not going to have issued someone a 1.4 petrol Focus and nor will they be paying VAT on the fuel and nor is the cost of someones salary the sole concern.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

My car is a family car. The Leaf isn't targeted at business people who do long distances every day. Same way a *insert random two seat sports car here* isn't suitable for someone with kids.

I really do wonder why you bring up your business requirements? I mean there must be plenty of fossil fuel cars that also don't meet your requirements? Does that mean all cars that don't meet your individual requirements are bad?

Because there is *never* going to be an EV that meets those requirements.

-Chris-

n97 mini wrote: »

130 miles in 2 hours averages 65 mph. A Focus 1.4 will do what, 35mpg at that speed, costing about €25 each way. The Leaf will do it for less than €2.

€46 an hour is a decent salary.

I did more detailed sums later in the thread.

dr.fuzzenstein

n97 mini wrote: »

130 miles in 2 hours averages 65 mph. A Focus 1.4 will do what, 35mpg at that speed, costing about €25 each way. The Leaf will do it for less than €2.

€46 an hour is a decent salary.

Maybe now.
Wait till everyone has one and charging costs will go through the flippin' roof.
The only reason petrol and diesel are so bloody dear is because right now there's no alternative.
If everyone went electric and consumption would go through the roof, you can be sure electricity would skyrocket in price.
Right now is a good time to have an electric vehicle if it suits, I'd have one, but my budget for a new car right now would be nil, so I'm stuck with the auld oilburner.
Which is currently returning 53-54 mpg, so it's not too bad.
If the government decided not to tax me and sell me nice, cheap diesel, mine would be cheap to run.
All those prices are artificially created to skew the market and once the market has shifted, you will find new taxes regarding electric vehicles coming up like mushrooms.
My guess: Electricity to skyrocket, maybe huge taxes on batteries, road tax, import tax, VRT, VAT.
This WILL happen, it's the way it works.

Paparazzo

There's a few ordinary enough cars in the Cannonball Run this year. A few normal enough BMW's or Mercs. I'd definitely walk past the Leaf.

Shane732

Sesshoumaru - I drive a 3.0 petrol E93 BMW 335i




I still love saying it!!

Eric Cartman

BX 19 wrote: »

Ahhh cmon, the leaf is in less glamorous company to be fair.

There is a bloody X5 going for gods sake......

ever since the builders all got rid of them in the 'recession' theyre back to being a luxury

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

As it stands right now it costs me €20 to do 2100km. Let me know when petrol/diesel cars can do that

and in that time youd have to make 10-15 quick charges , id easily do that distance in 12 days , carrying 1-200kg of tools and with the aircon on pretty much solid and it costs me about 310 euro in diesel , so your saving 290 euro , but also losing the aircon and carrying capacity , also depending on what im doing , that 290 euro is between 2 and 6 hours work for me , even at 5 hours work thats 10 quick charges , which is the minimum youd make on your journey so even in my 4x4 it currently balances in my favour , i would have to make maybee 2 fuel stops in that at about 10 minutes each.

im not trying to put down your electric car, if it works for you, it works, but at this moment in time it still suits me to drive a 4x4 more than it does a leaf

Shane732 wrote: »

Sesshoumaru - I drive a 3.0 petrol E93 BMW 335i




I still love saying it!!

a lovely beast

Blut2

ottostreet wrote: »

Anyone know what the BMW parked beside the electric car is? I'm assuming M5?

Yeah, the light blue BMW is an M5, saw it parked up yesterday evening around Merrion Square. Odd colour, not sure it'd by my choice. Stands out from a normal 5 series though.

deRanged

it made it to Cork anyway


Nissan Leaf by Brian Clayton, on Flickr

more pics here

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

A company is not going to have issued someone a 1.4 petrol Focus and nor will they be paying VAT on the fuel and nor is the cost of someones salary the sole concern.

Who said anything about company cars?

VAT is not reclaimable on petrol... but it is reclaimable on electricity!

n97 mini

-Chris- wrote: »

I did more detailed sums later in the thread.

My maths are based on the more common 1.4 petrol model. But even if I had used the 1.6 diesel then you have quoted the manufacturer's figures, not real world figures, which I can guarantee you are not based on doing a constant 65mph.

The other thing you don't take into account is that the Leaf beats the Focus on economy not just once on a drive to Galway, but all day long, every day. The more you drive the Leaf the more it blows the Focus into the weeds.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

Who said anything about company cars?

VAT is not reclaimable on petrol... but it is reclaimable on electricity!

When someone is talking about lost earnings due to time lost by a vehicle they are generally *not* speaking about their personal car. And company cars are virtually never petrol nor have they been since the 1980s.

650Ginge

MYOB wrote: »

When someone is talking about lost earnings due to time lost by a vehicle they are generally *not* speaking about their personal car. And company cars are virtually never petrol nor have they been since the 1980s.

MYOB - Prone to generalisation without any substance or effort.

L1011

650Ginge wrote: »

MYOB - Prone to generalisation without any substance or effort.

Explain that, please.

stimpson

deRanged wrote: »

it made it to Cork anyway


Nissan Leaf by Brian Clayton, on Flickr

more pics here

Is that charging point a permanent one or is it one they brought with them and connected to a big truck?

Hardly a fair comparison if they can bring their own electricity. Just as bad as the Top Gear road test.

Sesshoumaru

stimpson wrote: »

Is that charging point a permanent one or is it one they brought with them and connected to a big truck?

Hardly a fair comparison if they can bring their own electricity. Just as bad as the Top Gear road test.

It's a prop... it does nothing.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

A company is not going to have issued someone a 1.4 petrol Focus and nor will they be paying VAT on the fuel and nor is the cost of someones salary the sole concern.




Because there is *never* going to be an EV that meets those requirements.

*never* ? That's a ridiculous statement. You're heavily involved in battery research and know this for a fact? The Chinese have already started leasing out their new BYD e6 which has roughly 2.5 time the battery capacity of the Leaf. Do you have anything to back up what you're saying besides deeply held beliefs?

Sesshoumaru

-Chris- wrote: »

I'm glad you're happy with your car, and I'm not trying to knock it, I'm just giving my take on it.

You pay €20 for 2,100KM, so you'd pay roughly €3.94 for the 414KM return journey from Dublin to Galway.

The biggest selling car at the moment is the Ford Focus. 95.6% of those are in band A. 80.6% are hatchback.
I don't know what the specific model is, but let's take the Ford Focus 5DR Zetec 1.6TDCi 115BHP. It costs €23,875 ex. works, so similar in pricing to a base-spec Leaf. It does 4.2l/100KM

For the same journey, the Focus will use 17.38 litres of diesel, costing €24.97 based on a diesel price of €1.436 per litre.

So, for this return journey from Dublin to Galway you're saved €21.03, but it's added an extra 90 mins to your journey.
I'm not sure what you're paid, but if you're on the average industrial wage, that 90 mins is worth €31.37.


Again, I'm glad you're happy with your car, and I'm not trying to knock it, but if I was choosing a company car for MYOB I'd choose the Focus over the Leaf. Horses for courses, I guess.

There are situations where the Leaf is definitely desirable, but driving distance isn't one of them.
That's why I think putting a Leaf on the Cannonball Run is a pointless stunt (ah-ha!! I'm not wandering wildly off-topic after all!! :P:D).

I don't have a company car, the leaf is my family car. It is not targeted at people who regularly need to make long distance journeys. MYOB may as well be talking about weather patterns on Venus for all the relevance it has to assessing the Leaf as a long distance company car.

Lets be frank here, if someone started a thread on an Audi R8 and how great a sports car it was... would anyone entertain as valid criticism someone posting on the thread that the R8 was sh1t because he/she had 3 kids and the R8 couldn't cope with their needs?

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

When someone is talking about lost earnings due to time lost by a vehicle they are generally *not* speaking about their personal car.

I didn't mention lost earnings.

MYOB wrote: »

And company cars are virtually never petrol nor have they been since the 1980s.

Irrelevant to this thread, but also wrong. When the car is a managerial perk and not a repmobile there is no reason for it to be diesel. Plenty are petrols as a result.

Sesshoumaru

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Maybe now.
Wait till everyone has one and charging costs will go through the flippin' roof.
The only reason petrol and diesel are so bloody dear is because right now there's no alternative.
If everyone went electric and consumption would go through the roof, you can be sure electricity would skyrocket in price.
Right now is a good time to have an electric vehicle if it suits, I'd have one, but my budget for a new car right now would be nil, so I'm stuck with the auld oilburner.
Which is currently returning 53-54 mpg, so it's not too bad.
If the government decided not to tax me and sell me nice, cheap diesel, mine would be cheap to run.
All those prices are artificially created to skew the market and once the market has shifted, you will find new taxes regarding electric vehicles coming up like mushrooms.
My guess: Electricity to skyrocket, maybe huge taxes on batteries, road tax, import tax, VRT, VAT.
This WILL happen, it's the way it works.

Most charging occurs at night time, this costs us literally nothing extra as we cannot switch off power plants at night. This power generated during the night is currently wasted. So EV's charging at night actually increase our efficiency without us having to increase our electricity generation. The SEAI has a report on this and basically we would need to go beyond 250k EV's before we would notice and extra burden on the grid.

I'm sure I've said this before, but, electricity is something we can generate ourselves with our own natural resources e.g. wind & tidal etc. In fact 14% of our electricity comes from renewables at the moment. By 2020 the target is 40%. Money we pay for that "home grown" electricity stays in Ireland supporting local jobs and taxes. How does that compare to diesel/petrol where half the money goes back to Saudi Arabia? Do you like supporting rich despotic Arabs?

Have you looked into the ESB's plans for smart metering? It's quite possible that charging your EV will in fact be kept on a lower tariff compared to other domestic electricity usage. Why? because we're starting now to invest in smart grid technology. It's likely EV's will form part of that smart grid, helping to even out supply during peak usage periods. In other words EV's can be used to supply as well as take power from the grid. This isn't far away technology, it's here today.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/03/nissans-leaf-to-home-system-sends-power-back-to-your-house-or/

The Nissan Leaf may look like a car, but it turns out it will soon also be an emergency power generator on wheels. The automaker just took the wraps off its new "Leaf to Home" system in Japan this week, which promises to let you send power stored in the car back to your house in the case of an outage, or even back to the grid (letting you charge the car during off-peak hours and profiting when demand is high, for instance). Of course, that also requires more than your basic charging station (this one ties directly into your home's electricity distribution panel), and it's not quite ready for consumer use just yet -- Nissan expects it to be available in Japan by April of next year.

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

Sesshoumaru - I drive a 3.0 petrol E93 BMW 335i




I still love saying it!!

I have to admit I was slightly hoping you had a crap car, but that's nice. Not my cup of tea, but nice.

In general I think any high performance car is wasted in Ireland. There are simply no facilities to use them. You're also penalized heavily for owning them. That's why when it comes to performance I stick with two wheels and my Ducati.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't mention lost earnings.

You quoted Chris, who did.

n97 mini wrote: »

Irrelevant to this thread, but also wrong. When the car is a managerial perk and not a repmobile there is no reason for it to be diesel. Plenty are petrols as a result.

They're not the ones driving 'to Galway' (or anywhere else) frequently.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

*never* ? That's a ridiculous statement. You're heavily involved in battery research and know this for a fact? The Chinese have already started leasing out their new BYD e6 which has roughly 2.5 time the battery capacity of the Leaf. Do you have anything to back up what you're saying besides deeply held beliefs?

Wait till the batteries start exploding

Battery 'research' has been mostly static for about 30 years. Newer battery technologies are not safe, and definitely not better enough to justify the risk.

And if they're only leasing them out that suggests that they're nowhere near financially viable for sale.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

You quoted Chris, who did.



They're not the ones driving 'to Galway' (or anywhere else) frequently.



Wait till the batteries start exploding

Battery 'research' has been mostly static for about 30 years. Newer battery technologies are not safe, and definitely not better enough to justify the risk.

And if they're only leasing them out that suggests that they're nowhere near financially viable for sale.

Are you going to offer any evidence for your opinions? Anything? A few scraps of evidence even?

Oh and I own my battery. All Nissan Leaf owners OWN their batteries. No Nissan Leaf owner in any country leases their battery.

Sesshoumaru

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/obama-signs-stimulus-packed-with-clean-energy-provisions/

* A large sum for energy efficiency, including $5 billion for low-income weatherization programs; over $6 billion in grants for state and local governments; and several billion to modernize federal buildings, with a particular emphasis on energy efficiency.

* $11 billion for “smart grid” investments.

* $3.4 billion for carbon capture and sequestration demonstration projects (otherwise known as “clean coal”).

* $2 billion for research into batteries for electric cars.

* $500 million to help workers train for “green jobs.”

* A three-year extension of the “production tax credit” for wind energy (as well as a tax credit extension for biomass, geothermal, landfill gas and some hydropower projects).

That was signed in February 2009. Do you think the US is the only country investing heavily in battery technology?

The Leaf has been extensively crash tested, just google it! No battery explosions so far, only 5 stars in the EuroNCAP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nsb7SkrpyE

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Are you going to offer any evidence for your opinions? Anything? A few scraps of evidence even?

If you read any technology news at all you'll know that 'advanced' battery technology is unreliable:

http://www.google.ie/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=exploding+batteries+site%3Atheregister.co.uk

Filtered to one news site there.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Oh and I own my battery. All Nissan Leaf owners OWN their batteries. No Nissan Leaf owner in any country leases their battery.

You mentioned a Chinese car that's being leased and that's what I was referring to. You're getting extremely defensive...

Pdfile

how is a car that's batterys will last 5 years tops... more efficient then a slowly drivin ( sometimes ) porshe or bmw ??


some folks would buy ****e if you put an alfa badge on it...


oh wait...

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

If you read any technology news at all you'll know that 'advanced' battery technology is unreliable:

http://www.google.ie/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=exploding+batteries+site%3Atheregister.co.uk

Filtered to one news site there.



You mentioned a Chinese car that's being leased and that's what I was referring to. You're getting extremely defensive...

Back to the old labeling eh Can't trust those "defensive" "EV Lovers", I heard they come out from under your bed at night and steal children

I think anyone with an open mind can read what I have posted, what you have posted and come to conclusion you have zero evidence to backup your opinions. I mean seriously you're comparing mobile phones and laptops to my car. Anyways how can a battery explode even? Where is the rapid expansion of gas and containment going to come from? Oh and petrol is flammable you know, as is aviation fuel. People still drive petrol cars and fly in planes. All of which have been known to "explode" as you put it.

I started this thread by stating that the Leaf with its DC charging capability is capable of long journeys. I never once said it was suitable for people who need to do long journeys regularly. But you've been having a debate with yourself about how the Leaf is crap because it can't fulfill your requirements which includes regular long journeys. You might as well be discussing the weather with yourself, no one disagrees with you and no one ever disagreed with you on the regular long journey point.

Where I do disagree with you is the *never* part. You claim with no evidence whatsoever that battery research is dead for the last 30 years. Yet clearly as I've shown with evidence the US is spending billions on research into batteries for EV's. Clearly also private companies like Renault and Nissan have been investing heavily in research into batteries for EV's.

Sesshoumaru

Pdfile wrote: »

how is a car that's batterys will last 5 years tops... more efficient then a slowly drivin ( sometimes ) porshe or bmw ??


some folks would buy ****e if you put an alfa badge on it...


oh wait...

Battery will gradually lose capacity over time. An example given so far was a private Leaf in Tokyo that had done over 10,000 miles with 326 DC fast charges (the type of charge that is most damaging) and it still has 100% capacity. The battery won't stop working at any particular point, just have less capacity.

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

You quoted Chris, who did.

No he didn't. Here's the post I quoted.

MYOB wrote: »

They're not the ones driving 'to Galway' (or anywhere else) frequently.

Oh, so petrol company cars do exist in numbers? Other than that your point has nothing to do with anything.

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

If you read any technology news at all you'll know that 'advanced' battery technology is unreliable:

Just for once why don't you listen to what someone who owns/is using the technology tells you from their experience, rather than trying to dig up stuff on the internet to prove them wrong?

SV

n97 mini wrote: »

Just for once why don't you listen to what someone who owns/is using the technology tells you from their experience, rather than trying to dig up stuff on the internet to prove them wrong?

Touchy aren't we!

stimpson

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's a prop... it does nothing.

What's with the white cable on the ground then? It's in the other shot on Merrion Sq too. I bet it's being charged at every stop.

Sesshoumaru

SV wrote: »

Touchy aren't we!

In fairness you're not adding much with this comment. Digging up a few old stories on batteries catching fire in laptops and mobile phones isn't great research now is it? Laptops and mobile phones are more ubiquitous than cars, so clearly the vast majority of people consider battery technology to be safe. That's ignoring the fact that many forms of modern transportation (including cars) carry around tanks of flammable fuel with them, yet are also considered safe (despite on occasion "exploding").

That's why IMO MYOB linking to a Google search of laptop and phone batteries is quite a weak argument. So I can see where n97 mini gets his or her frustration from. Those kinds of arguments are common amongst the "anti brigade" (see I can label people as well). It can be disheartening when you see the same arguments or points wheeled out time after time. Example:

anti brigade: The Leaf is useless, it takes 14 hours to charge it

Reality: 7 hours to charge at home or on the street. 20 to 30 minutes for a DC fast charge. Renault Fluence ZE and Ford Focus electric will take 3 to 4 hours at home and 1 hour on street (Focus not 100% sure on, but Fluence can accept triple phase AC which on street chargers provide). So just taking the example I'm 100% on, the Fluence ZE can do regular "slow" on street charging in 1 hour. That's 0% to 100% in 1 hour. Yet 14+ hours is still wheeled out regularly.

Sesshoumaru

stimpson wrote: »

What's with the white cable on the ground then? It's in the other shot on Merrion Sq too. I bet it's being charged at every stop.

ha! you're funny

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-news-and-events/electric-car-photo-gallery/electric-car-events-and-conferences-photos.jsp

It's a prop the ESB wheel out for photo opportunities.





They even have a video diary where you can watch them using DC fast chargers installed in regular fuel stations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFsuUrO2SkQ&feature=channel_video_title

*edit*

I took this from their Facebook page:

stimpson

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

ha! you're funny
It's a prop the ESB wheel out for photo

There's no white cable in the promo shots. More than a little bit suspicious.

Sesshoumaru

stimpson wrote: »

There's no white cable in the promo shots. More than a little bit suspicious.

When the Leaf is charging there are three lights that light up on the dashboard.



If these aren't on, then it's not charging.

They are all promotional shots. So yes there is a white cable in some of the promo shots.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

That's why IMO MYOB linking to a Google search of laptop and phone batteries is quite a weak argument

Same technology. A battery exploding in a car is likely to kill you, a battery exploding in a laptop isn't.

People who work in IT don't consider modern battery technology safe, and if people who work in EV do, they are endangering their customers lives. That is why EVs use older technology and there is extremely little safe advancement on the horizon.

n97 mini wrote: »

No he didn't. Here's the post I quoted.

...in a chain that started with him referring to lost salaried time. Do you need to be so uselessly pendantic?

n97 mini wrote: »

Oh, so petrol company cars do exist in numbers? Other than that your point has nothing to do with anything.

Not in numbers, no.

n97 mini wrote: »

Just for once why don't you listen to what someone who owns/is using the technology tells you from their experience, rather than trying to dig up stuff on the internet to prove them wrong?

Because the Leaf does not use modern battery technology (it uses Lithium Ion which is 1990s), hence he does not own or use it in a car.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

Same technology. A battery exploding in a car is likely to kill you, a battery exploding in a laptop isn't.

People who work in IT don't consider modern battery technology safe, and if people who work in EV do, they are endangering their customers lives. That is why EVs use older technology and there is extremely little safe advancement on the horizon.


Because the Leaf does not use modern battery technology (it uses Lithium Ion which is 1990s), hence he does not own or use it in a car.

lithium ion... ICE... using your logic I can say there has been no technological progress between a Ford Model T and a Ford Focus. They're both ICE, so obviously your car is using technology over a century old... using your logic.

Did it not cross your mind that technology is refined and advanced as time goes by? My current mobile phone has a lithium ion battery that is smaller in physical dimensions than earlier batteries I had in earlier phones, yet its capacity is higher. But they were all lithium ion batteries! Hence you saying my battery is 90's technology is weak, like my comparison between the Ford Model T and the Ford Focus, they also both use internal combustion engine technology. Big difference between the two of them though, because obviously the technology has advanced despite both them using then same basics.

Also I think you missed a point there. How do batteries "explode"? Where is the sudden expansion of gas going to come from? Do you have any statistics on how often batteries "explode" compared to cars "exploding"?

*edit*

Just thought I'd mention this, since you obviously seem to think you've spoken to every last IT professional in the world... you missed a couple! I work in IT and have done so for over 10 years. I've met several other Irish Leaf owners in person to discuss EV issues and at least 3 of those also work in IT. It was sort of amusing on our first meet up... "hello, how's it going, what's your day job?", "I work in IT" "Oh really I work in IT as well, oh and that guy also works in IT".

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

My current mobile phone has a lithium ion battery that is smaller in physical dimensions than earlier batteries I had in earlier phones, yet its capacity is higher.

By what %? You're quite likely over-estimating the capacity due to serious reductions in power consumption by ICs in recent years. Energy density of Li-ion batteries has improved by maybe 15% in the 20 years its been in consumer use. Anything further starts getting unstable; and it has all been at the expense of cost.

edit: your phone probably has a Lithium Polymer battery in it anyway. These are used in some EVs but are far, far less safe than the Li-ion's in a Leaf

There has been almost the same increase in efficiency from combustion engines, just without needing to mine metals in warzones and the like...

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Also I think you missed a point there. How do batteries "explode"? Where is the sudden expansion of gas going to come from? Do you have any statistics on how often batteries "explode" compared to cars "exploding"?

The lithium is stored in a pressurised containment inside a battery. When things go wrong, this is what expands and explodes.

When was the last time a maker recalled tens of millions of cars due to explosion risk?

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

By what %? You're quite likely over-estimating the capacity due to serious reductions in power consumption by ICs in recent years. Energy density of Li-ion batteries has improved by maybe 15% in the 20 years its been in consumer use. Anything further starts getting unstable; and it has all been at the expense of cost.

There has been almost the same increase in efficiency from combustion engines, just without needing to mine metals in warzones and the like...



The lithium is stored in a pressurised containment inside a battery. When things go wrong, this is what expands and explodes.

When was the last time a maker recalled tens of millions of cars due to explosion risk?

wow you do like to just cherry pick and/or stick you hands in your ears going lalalala Have you moved on from arguing with yourself about regular long distance commuting? Are you ever going to provide evidence that batteries are more of a risk compared to carrying a tank full of flammable liquid? You have strong opinions but you're short on facts to back you up.

How about cost of electricity? Are you going to provide any evidence to back up your claim that electricity will rise in tandem with diesel? I've certainly given reasons why it won't! Where is the evidence informing your opinion?

Any chance of providing reasons why you think we won't meet our renewable energy targets?

Are you going to retract you statement that I said they are suitable for long distance driving? I've only ever argued they are capable and for most people who only make occasional long journeys they are suitable.

Are you going to back up your assertions that EV's will *never* be suitable for long distance commuting? Remember you were saying no one is doing research? But I showed you the Americans are literally investing billions in EV battery technology. Still going lalalala?

Some evidence please! You've provided absolutely zero. At this rate its not worth my time debating with you since you are not really putting in a comparable effort.

copacetic

MYOB wrote: »

People who work in IT don't consider modern battery technology safe, and if people who work in EV do, they are endangering their customers

Even if this was true, it would be meaningless, 'people who work in IT' have little or no understanding of how batteries work or what safe is.

L1011

copacetic wrote: »

Even if this was true, it would be meaningless, 'people who work in IT' have little or no understanding of how batteries work or what safe is.

other than working with them *every* *single* *day* in mobile devices...

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

wow you do like to just cherry pick and/or stick you hands in your ears going lalalala

You're the one cherry picking. Provide the energy density difference between your two phone batteries - if both are Li-ion - as asked.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Have you moved on from arguing with yourself about regular long distance commuting?

There was no arguing with myself. The arguing was with other people, including you.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Are you ever going to provide evidence that batteries are more of a risk compared to carrying a tank full of flammable liquid? You have strong opinions but you're short on facts to back you up.

I've yet to see a car spontaneously explode when fuelling. I've yet to see a car firm recall tens of millions of cars due to spontaneous explosions.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

How about cost of electricity? Are you going to provide any evidence to back up your claim that electricity will rise in tandem with diesel? I've certainly given reasons why it won't! Where is the evidence informing your opinion?

The past five years fuel / power price rises and falls show this.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Any chance of providing reasons why you think we won't meet our renewable energy targets?

Because we're going to realise that it isn't windy all the time, mainly. We maxed out hydro to any economic level years ago, solar doesn't produce enough power-to-area in low light and its not always windy.

Even if we reach it it'll leave 80% of it dependent on mostly imported fossil fuels, all bar peat priced on a global market. The same market that prices diesel.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Are you going to retract you statement that I said they are suitable for long distance driving? I've only ever argued they are capable and for most people who only make occasional long journeys they are suitable.

You're revising your claims. You said they were suitable - when they aren't. You are now adding conditions you didn't originally.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Are you going to back up your assertions that EV's will *never* be suitable for long distance commuting? Remember you were saying no one is doing research? But I showed you the Americans are literally investing billions in EV battery technology. Still going lalalala?

20 years and billions put in to battery technology by technology firms haven't provided the improvement you expect to magic out of thin air.

Reality seems to be hard to accept - both the unobtainable 20% renewable and this.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Some evidence please! You've provided absolutely zero. At this rate its not worth my time debating with you since you are not really putting in a comparable effort.

You've provided nothing other than EV fanboiism. You're ignoring the dangerous of more modern Lithium batteries outright and believing in unobtainable advances in technology.

Specific evidence isn't needed when anyone with eyes and a memory can see what's being said. If anything needs evidence its your claims that battery technology can be improved safely, for instance.

All because you own an expensive car of limited practicality that you're having to defend. If you accepted it was expensive and of limited practicality as those who have, say, high cost two seater sports cars do, you'd have a far easier life.

n97 mini

Yet another good thread ruined. :rolleyes:

MYOB, give it a rest will ya.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

other...

I have nothing against you personally, but your arguments keep getting weaker and weaker. I asked for evidence and you responded by more forcefully stating your opinions. Not impressed! Go back to arguing with yourself.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I have nothing against you personally, but your arguments keep getting weaker and weaker. I asked for evidence and you responded by more forcefully stating your opinions. Not impressed! Go back to arguing with yourself.

As I said, no evidence is required. Anyone can see that their ESB bill has gone up in tandem with filling their car and went down with it too. Anyone who hasn't got their head in the sand can see that advanced battery technology is known for blowing up. Anyone can see that a range that can't get you to Galway is impractical.

Hiace.

I'd rather do it in a milk float than in a Nissan Queef