Cannonball Run in the Leaf

650Ginge

Glad I stopped following this.

Seessshouaura or whatever you're name is, I like your car you like your car, don't bother trying to educate MYOB and the likes, sure just let them walk around spoof that they know stuff about stuff they don't really. We know and they will grow up one day and they would know it.

Can you imagine being stuck in a car a couple of times a week to galway airport listening to that fella/girl? You would be dying for a recharge break along the way.

L1011

650Ginge wrote: »

Glad I stopped following this.

Seessshouaura or whatever you're name is, I like your car you like your car, don't bother trying to educate MYOB and the likes, sure just let them walk around spoof that they know stuff about stuff they don't really. We know and they will grow up one day and they would know it.

Can you imagine being stuck in a car a couple of times a week to galway airport listening to that fella/girl? You would be dying for a recharge break along the way.

I'd rather put myself in the path of an exploding battery than spend twenty seconds in the company of an EV fanboi.

rebel.ranter

I currently have 3 x cars with 6 cylinders (2.0L, 2.5L & 3.0L) and I can see the relevance & significance of the Nissan Leaf.
The debate that's going on here now probably happened at the turn from horses to the internal combustion engine.
An alternative to fossil fuels is needed. The sooner they do the less pressure there will be on the extinction of fossil fueled cars.
Bring on the Leaf. (Although I think they should start to make attractive electric vehicles for a change)

dr.fuzzenstein

OK, I have made fun of the Leaf joining the Cannonball Run (first reply), but it was more about the idea of the Leaf doing this event.
If EV's where within my price range, I might be tempted for my daily commute which is costing me E60-70 a week in diesel, plus tax, plus insurance, plus servicing, etc...
Or maybe a plug-in diesel hybrid for longer runs.
If there was a distribution network, my all time favourite would be a fuel-cell hydrogen vehicle.
Having made fun of EV's in the past, I nevertheless think purely electric cars will have some useful applications, such as short distance commuting and city runs.
All this back and forth about exploding batteries is nothing but mindless bickering and trolling.
Laptop batteries do not explode all the time, they do not "explode" as such, but expand and, yes, they can catch fire.
Of course we know that no car carrying around 40-60 litres of petrol has ever gone up in flames ever in the history of motoring worldwide.
I would sit in a Leaf anyday and not worry the tiniest bit about the battery sending me straight skywards.
No more that worry about the airbag in my steering wheel to explode straight into my face without reason, which also happens.
Nor do I worry about slipping in the shower, crossing the street or being hit by a meteorite.
This is nothing but pointless scaremongering by people who do not like it when an argument doesn't go their way and are now desperate to score points at any cost.
In short: Leaf not bad, wouldn't do the Cannonball in it, though.

Sesshoumaru

rebel.ranter wrote: »

I currently have 3 x cars with cylinders (2.0L, 2.5L & 3.0L) and I can see the relevance & significance of the Nissan Leaf.
The debate that's going on here now probably happened at the turn from horses to the internal combustion engine.
An alternative to fossil fuels is needed. The sooner they do the less pressure there will be on the extinction of fossil fueled cars.
Bring on the Leaf. (Although I think they should start to make attractive electric vehicles for a change)

A good point there. Horses didn't disappear completely when we switched over to ICE. They were repurposed for pleasure uses. Personally I still prefer the sound of a performance engine, whether it's a turbo charged Japanese 4 cylinder or a large displacement V8+

I hope someday any enthusiast can own an EV for their everyday driving and still own an ICE based performance car... without being penalised by high taxes etc. That day is a little closer now that we've started using EV's for the everyday mundane tasks of getting from A to B. ICE will probably have some healthy competition though from performance EV's

http://www.ridemission.com/motorsport/mission-r

http://vimeo.com/25686996 <- I would own this if they made a production version, doesn't sound too bad to my ears either.

The heart of the Mission R is an advanced MissionEVT powertrain that packs 141hp and 14.4 kWh of energy storage in a package smaller than a 600cc sportbike. The liquid-cooled AC Induction motor produces 115 ft. lbs. of torque the moment the rider cracks the throttle, rocketing the bike from a standstill to over 160 mph in one gear. Power is managed by the MissionEVT 100kW motor controller, with customizable regenerative braking maps, throttle maps and more. All vehicle and ride data is accessible via WiFi or 3G connections.

colm_mcm

Saw this today. It's got a green wrap.

Laughing at the idea that esb think stopping every few hours to recharge isnt an issue for people

Sesshoumaru

colm_mcm wrote: »

Saw this today. It's got a green wrap.

Laughing at the idea that esb think stopping every few hours to recharge isnt an issue for people

Depends on what you mean exactly? My wife and I use ours everyday and don't have to stop. But that would be because 160 kilometres covers 99% of our daily requirements. I know some people use their cars a lot more than that, but it is backed up by statistics! a lot of car owners don't travel that far on a daily basis and when they require more range on occasion, then having to spend 20 or 30 minutes recharging isn't such a big deal to them.

Example: Me and the other people who have so far bought the Leaf. Many of whom I've met personally and have the Leaf as their one and only car.

R.O.R

Realy can't be arsed reading all the petty backbiting and point scoring, so could someone give a quick update as to whether the Leaf is still going, or has it been recovered yet?

Sesshoumaru

http://www.facebook.com/ESBecars

http://www.youtube.com/ESBecars

Never Wrong

The youtube video for day 2 shows that it made it to Westport. There are some charge points there where I presume it charged overnight.

cena

Sunday 11th September
Depart Westport and fast charge in Galway
Launch of fast charge point in Topaz Athlone, 12.00pm
Tour stop and charge in Kinnitty, 1.30
Finish line: Kilkenny, 5.00

I'v come home from athlone. If only i knew this was going too be in athlone I would of stayed around.

Shane732

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I have to admit I was slightly hoping you had a crap car, but that's nice. Not my cup of tea, but nice.

In general I think any high performance car is wasted in Ireland. There are simply no facilities to use them. You're also penalized heavily for owning them. That's why when it comes to performance I stick with two wheels and my Ducati.

Why were you hoping I had a crap car?

So a high performance car is wasted in Ireland but a car that can't do a run from Galway to Dublin without having to recharge is perfect for the country?

Eric Cartman

realistically EV's currently only suit people who live within the reach of good public transport networks anyway, so if over the years range doesnt improve drastically , public transport is getting better anyway , so the EV will remain of very limited use

rebel.ranter

Eric Cartman wrote: »

realistically EV's currently only suit people who live within the reach of good public transport networks anyway

Basically you're saying that the current alternative to the Leaf is actually public transport because of the limited range? Therefore the only people that will consider the Leaf are people that would normally use public transport? If so then the intriduction of electric vehicles is actually counter productive in reducing cars in cities.

Heroditas

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I'm sure I've said this before, but, electricity is something we can generate ourselves with our own natural resources e.g. wind & tidal etc. In fact 14% of our electricity comes from renewables at the moment. By 2020 the target is 40%. Money we pay for that "home grown" electricity stays in Ireland supporting local jobs and taxes. How does that compare to diesel/petrol where half the money goes back to Saudi Arabia? Do you like supporting rich despotic Arabs?

As long as even as little as 1% of our electricity is generated by fossil fuels, the price of electricity here will be dictated by the price of that fossil fuel, such is the way the Single Electricity Market (SEM) is set up.

We don't make the wind turbines here and the likes of SSE who own Airtricity and Viridian who own Energia are owned by foreign companies.

TestTransmission

R.O.R wrote: »

Realy can't be arsed reading all the petty backbiting and point scoring, so could someone give a quick update as to whether the Leaf is still going, or has it been recovered yet?

I'm as lost as you are.

Eric Cartman

rebel.ranter wrote: »

Basically you're saying that the current alternative to the Leaf is actually public transport because of the limited range? Therefore the only people that will consider the Leaf are people that would normally use public transport? If so then the intriduction of electric vehicles is actually counter productive in reducing cars in cities.

A lot of people living in cities dont own cars , or only use a car for long journeys , so this is useless to them at the moment. The ones who live inside current EV's ranges but still want a car are the ones that public transport makes the most sense for. By subsidising these EV's, the goverment are just hurting their public transport network and adding to traffic as the group of people who EV's are suitable for, are also the perfect target market for public transport.

EKRIUQ

Just back from Kilkenny, some amazing cars on show but just very surprised that a lot of the cars needed a good wash and wax and just looked dirty, it could be from the days driving but you'd know by looking at some they had no wax at all.

Shane732

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Just back from Kilkenny, some amazing cars on show but just very surprised that a lot of the cars needed a good wash and wax and just looked dirty, it could be from the days driving but you'd know by looking at some they had no wax at all.

I'd say the vast majority of those cars were very well turned out on Friday morning....

markpb

By the way, if you use it again for subsequent trips, make sure to check the online fare as well as the railsaver fare - sometimes the normal, online fare is cheaper.

Paparazzo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

A lot of people living in cities dont own cars , or only use a car for long journeys , so this is useless to them at the moment. The ones who live inside current EV's ranges but still want a car are the ones that public transport makes the most sense for. By subsidising these EV's, the goverment are just hurting their public transport network and adding to traffic as the group of people who EV's are suitable for, are also the perfect target market for public transport.

Ah come on, the electric car mightn't be great, but public transport! Come on, have you ever used it? Even if you live and work in Dublin, it's woeful! Give me a leaf any day of the week ahead of Dublin Bus

Eric Cartman

Paparazzo wrote: »

Ah come on, the electric car mightn't be great, but public transport! Come on, have you ever used it? Even if you live and work in Dublin, it's woeful! Give me a leaf any day of the week ahead of Dublin Bus

im well aware but still

if you bought your ev because :

it costs less to run - bus is even cheaper
saving the enviroment - bus is more eco friendly
you only do short journeys - a bike and the bus/luas/train is a much cheaper option

now nobody in their right mind would buy an EV because of its range or comfort compared to ICE cars , or its sale price.

so if you only do such a small range theres really 2 cheap options
1) something like a polo, cheaper to buy , 104 a year to tax and you might spend a 5er a week in fuel
2) get the bus/train/luas/bike.
works out far cheaper on your pocket , and public transport is a good idea for the eco conscious.

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

Why were you hoping I had a crap car?

So a high performance car is wasted in Ireland but a car that can't do a run from Galway to Dublin without having to recharge is perfect for the country?

You have a nice car, I like it. You did say the Leaf was sh1t though, I was just hoping you had demonstrably poor taste in cars

Hiace.

In technology terms, what's the difference in these EV and the electric milk floats that have been used in cities for years ?

Sesshoumaru

Eric Cartman wrote: »

im well aware but still

if you bought your ev because :

it costs less to run - bus is even cheaper
saving the enviroment - bus is more eco friendly
you only do short journeys - a bike and the bus/luas/train is a much cheaper option

now nobody in their right mind would buy an EV because of its range or comfort compared to ICE cars , or its sale price.

so if you only do such a small range theres really 2 cheap options
1) something like a polo, cheaper to buy , 104 a year to tax and you might spend a 5er a week in fuel
2) get the bus/train/luas/bike.
works out far cheaper on your pocket , and public transport is a good idea for the eco conscious.

A Polo bluemotion uses 3.4 litres of fuel per 100km. So the 5 euro in your example would get you 100km of range per week. 5 euro electricity will get me 400km per week in my Leaf. Adding to that, the Leaf is bigger, has more gadgets and is more powerful. I was going outside to plug in the car and took this picture for you:



I only got my car at the end of April, clearly I'm doing more mileage than could be done using public transport. When I consider we have two young kids, I just couldn't have the same quality of life if we gave up our proper car for public transport. In any case my example clearly disproves your position that EV's are for low mileage people who should consider public transport instead of an EV.

You made some other points like a bus being more eco friendly, is it? It emits carbon gases, it also takes energy to get and process the fuel for the bus. How many people need to be on a bus in order to make it more eco friendly? In Ireland during the Celtic Tiger years we built lots of low density housing spreading out in all directions LA style. That's exactly the wrong way to build housing if you want to improve the efficiency of public transport. Buses and other public transport vehicles having to travel longer distances with fewer passengers on-board between stops.

I probably wouldn't argue against peak time buses (morning and evening commuters) being slightly more efficient (in cities like Dublin anyway), but what about the majority of the time when buses are doing all those long journeys to our far out housing estates with only 1 or 2 passengers on-board? It would be interesting to see if anyone has done calculations on this.

All that bus stuff is academic for me though. I'm currently averaging 2000km a month in my Leaf at a cost of €20pm. It's also a far far simpler machine with much fewer moving parts. It's possible you might mention batteries as others have done, I've said my piece on batteries before. Lets just wait and see, I'm confident it will work out for me in the long run.

Sesshoumaru

Hiace. wrote: »

In technology terms, what's the difference in these EV and the electric milk floats that have been used in cities for years ?

It's built on the same assembly lines as other Nissan cars, here's an interesting HD video on the production of the Leaf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saPWgjsRcAQ

Not sure if that answers your question, I can't find a similar video of a milk float being putting together. But I don't think they're comparable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Powertrain

No milk float ever had 110bhp or 280 newton metres of torque.

ottostreet

Sesshoumura, your choice of vehicle is everything about motoring that I am growing to despise. I wish electric cars would **** off and die, and in general, motoring went back to the way it was even a couple of years ago.

However, I must commend you for the clear concise way you are putting your points across. While I am more of the mindset of some of the posters arguing with you, I have yet to see you get cross or annoyed. So many threads like this turn into slagging matches, so its nice to see a thread continue in a civil way. Fair play.

Hiace.

It's old wine in new skins, every decade someone tries to resurrect this gimmick and pretend its new.
Until it costs the same overall to own and has the same range as a conventional car, it will remain a novelty play item for those with lost of spare dosh and time on their hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpYdHUxdMTI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JrBuzWo2PI

Paparazzo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

im well aware but still

if you bought your ev because :

it costs less to run - bus is even cheaper
saving the enviroment - bus is more eco friendly
you only do short journeys - a bike and the bus/luas/train is a much cheaper option

now nobody in their right mind would buy an EV because of its range or comfort compared to ICE cars , or its sale price.

so if you only do such a small range theres really 2 cheap options
1) something like a polo, cheaper to buy , 104 a year to tax and you might spend a 5er a week in fuel
2) get the bus/train/luas/bike.
works out far cheaper on your pocket , and public transport is a good idea for the eco conscious.

I don't need to point out the advantages of a car over a bike or public transport in the motoring forum! Add in a child and a car is pretty much essential. And you're forgetting about the people who want to pretend they're saving the planet. Actually, now the celtic tiger is dead there's a lot less of these gobshítes about.

Sesshoumaru

Hiace. wrote: »

It's old wine in new skins, every decade someone tries to resurrect this gimmick and pretend its new.
Until it costs the same overall to own and has the same range as a conventional car, it will remain a novelty play item for those with lost of spare dosh and time on their hands.

The EV1 was never sold only leased. It's also a fairly small two seater by the looks of those videos. It was also never mass produced and GM is only one manufacturer. Now just looking at what's on the market and extremely close to market:

Nissan:
Leaf

Renault:
Fluence, Kangoo, Zoe and others
http://www.renault.ie/electric-vehicles/electric-vehicles/

Ford:
Ford Focus Electric
http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

Volvo:
C30 Electric
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-FRSdthUxQ&feature=channel_video_title

Interesting plugin hybrids as well like this new Volvo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhZa3mlOI3w&feature=share

Hiace.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The EV1 was never sold only leased. It's also a fairly small two seater by the looks of those videos. It was also never mass produced and GM is only one manufacturer. Now just looking at what's on the market and extremely close to market:

Nissan:
Leaf

Renault:
Fluence, Kangoo, Zoe and others
http://www.renault.ie/electric-vehicles/electric-vehicles/

Ford:
Ford Focus Electric
http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

Volvo:
C30 Electric

Interesting plugin hybrids as well like this new Volvo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhZa3mlOI3w&feature=share

I'll let those with deep pockets iron out the manufactures mistakes for them first.
It'll be 10 years at least before such cars make economic sense.

Sesshoumaru

Hiace. wrote: »

I'll let those with deep pockets iron out the manufactures mistakes for them first.
It'll be 10 years at least before such cars make economic sense.

If you watch the Nissan Leaf production video you'll see they're not quite reinventing the car with the Leaf. Take out fuel tank and add battery pack. Take out engine and add electric motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saPWgjsRcAQ

That's why it's built on the same production line as other Nissan cars. Electric motors were invented before ICE. We have used them for a long time in transportation e.g. submarines, ships, trains etc. They are a refined and mature technology. While the battery technology hasn't been around as long or as refined, it's definitely not a leap into the unknown. In the video you'll see the Nissan people discuss the battery pack as a joint venture between Nissan and NEC. There is experience behind the design of the battery pack.

All that is just to say the Leaf is simply a car, similar to other cars in most aspects. IMO the Leaf will still be going strong in 10 years.

Hiace.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

If you watch the Nissan Leaf production video you'll see they're not quite reinventing the car with the Leaf. Take out fuel tank and add battery pack. Take out engine and add electric motor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saPWgjsRcAQ

That's why it's built on the same production line as other Nissan cars. Electric motors were invented before ICE. We have used them for a long time in transportation e.g. submarines, ships, trains etc. They are a refined and mature technology. While the battery technology hasn't been around as long or as refined, it's definitely not a leap into the unknown. In the video you'll see the Nissan people discuss the battery pack as a joint venture between Nissan and NEC. There is experience behind the design of the battery pack.

All that is just to say the Leaf is simply a car, similar to other cars in most aspects. IMO the Leaf will still be going strong in 10 years.

I can buy two new family cars for the price of one leaf.
Or one new family car with €16,000 left for petrol.

Sesshoumaru

Hiace. wrote: »

I can buy two new family cars for the price of one leaf.
Or one new family car with €16,000 left for petrol.

What car are you comparing the Leaf against? Please take a close look at the standard specifications for the Leaf:

http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/Specifications.aspx

Then note it has telematic features like scheduled/remote climate control that are simply not available on any ICE car. I explained these features more fully in a previous post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

The car I drove previously was a 2000 Audi A6 Avant Quattro Sport 2.5TDI. I only mention this because interior passenger space is comparable in the Leaf to my old A6 Avant. Boot space is smaller of course, it's not an estate, but is still plenty to fit buggy for baby, changing bag and a weeks shopping.

Bearing that all in mind, can you tell me what car you're comparing the Leaf against?

Shane732

I love the bit about the Cruise control with speed limiter; -

It's a 100 bhp car - I wouldn't be too worried about needing a speed limiter!

There are some nice features in it though. Ignoring the whole electric argument for a minute - do you actually like the look of the car though?

Shane732

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Bearing that all in mind, can you tell me what car you're comparing the Leaf against?

A Skoda of course!!!

Shane732

Can I ask you a couple of questions:

Why did you buy the Leaf?

Did you buy it purely because you think it'll be cheaper in the long run?

How long do you intend to keep it for?

Have you considered when you will need a new battery? How much will a new battery cost you?

.

Sesshoumaru

Back on topic I guess, robbed these from ESB ecars FB page:

The Leaf drawing attention from the public. I can honestly say when people do realise it's electric, a lot of people express genuine curiosity about the car. It's rare (for now) and people are interested, reasons enough to have it on the Cannonball run I feel.



Crossing finishing line under it's own power

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

I love the bit about the Cruise control with speed limiter; -

It's a 100 bhp car - I wouldn't be too worried about needing a speed limiter!

There are some nice features in it though. Ignoring the whole electric argument for a minute - do you actually like the look of the car though?

It's 110bhp or 80kw with 280nm of torque. It quite handily exceeds 160kph. I find the speed limiter handy when entering 30 to 60 kph zones. You generally can't use cruise control in these areas. Under manual throttle control it's easy enough to slip over the speed limit and get speeding points these days.

Speed limiter may sound silly, especially when you put it as you do But it's a useful function for everyday urban driving.

Sesshoumaru

Shane732 wrote: »

Can I ask you a couple of questions:

Why did you buy the Leaf?

Did you buy it purely because you think it'll be cheaper in the long run?

How long do you intend to keep it for?

Have you considered when you will need a new battery? How much will a new battery cost you?

.

I could give you lots of reasons as to why I bought it. I'm not a climate hippy or anything, but from a scientific standpoint the debate over human induced climate warming is over. A couple of nutjob "scientists" out of 10's of thousands of scientists worldwide don't count as a credible opposition to man made climate change theory.

Higher on the priority list for me personally are geopolitical reasons like not supporting despotic oil producing regimes. Along with the sure knowledge that as BRIC countries develop there will be massive demand for more cars and hence more oil. You can't argue with two basic facts, oil is a finite resource and demand for oil is increasing.

Taking both of those together I still wouldn't have bought the car if I thought it would actually cost me more in the long run compared to a similar size and spec of ICE car.

I intend to keep it for a minimum of 5 years, but 10 years is the goal.

The battery pack in my car contains 4kg of lithium. If future battery packs are still using some lithium based technology, my pack will still be worth a good bit of money (trade in value). So my plan is to get a new battery pack for the car in 3 to 5 years time. But only because I would like to utilise a larger capacity pack to extend the range of the car. The new battery pack would have to be 48 kilowatt hours or greater to justify upgrading IMO.

Plan B would be to have the battery pack refurbished in Sunderland whenever the capacity drops to 80% of original. You'll get conflicting opinions on when the batteries capacity will fall to 80%, however RAV4 EV's in the US have been easily getting over 150,000 miles on original battery packs without serious degradation. Each Leaf has a built-in internet connection as well, so Nissan is constantly monitoring the health of each of the 48 cells in my battery pack. Same for every other Leaf in the world, they've stated a private Leaf in Tokyo has done over 10,000 miles with 326 DC fast cahrges and battery capacity is still 100%. So I'm confident about the longevity of the battery pack in my car.

keithclancy

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

A Polo bluemotion uses 3.4 litres of fuel per 100km. So the 5 euro in your example would get you 100km of range per week. 5 euro electricity will get me 400km per week in my Leaf. Adding to that, the Leaf is bigger, has more gadgets and is more powerful. I was going outside to plug in the car and took this picture for you:

Indeed, but the Petrol Tank in the Polo doesn't cost a fortune and doesn't 'wear out' either.

You made some other points like a bus being more eco friendly, is it? It emits carbon gases, it also takes energy to get and process the fuel for the bus. How many people need to be on a bus in order to make it more eco friendly? In Ireland during the Celtic Tiger years we built lots of low density housing spreading out in all directions LA style. That's exactly the wrong way to build housing if you want to improve the efficiency of public transport. Buses and other public transport vehicles having to travel longer distances with fewer passengers on-board between stops.

Yup, a bus is far more eco friendly than your Electric car, simply becuase most Generation is done with Gas Fired Turbines.

I probably wouldn't argue against peak time buses (morning and evening commuters) being slightly more efficient (in cities like Dublin anyway), but what about the majority of the time when buses are doing all those long journeys to our far out housing estates with only 1 or 2 passengers on-board? It would be interesting to see if anyone has done calculations on this.

Well I would say the initial footprint of manufacturing the Leaf in the first place and the disposal of those nasty batteries after your done with them would put the public transport only commuter in a fairly good head start.

All that bus stuff is academic for me though. I'm currently averaging 2000km a month in my Leaf at a cost of €20pm. It's also a far far simpler machine with much fewer moving parts. It's possible you might mention batteries as others have done, I've said my piece on batteries before. Lets just wait and see, I'm confident it will work out for me in the long run.

It's not 20 euros per month though is it ? you'll need to replace those batteries in a few years at quite a cost, the real cost =
The cost to replace the entire battery pack after 5 years divided by the total amount of kilometers travelled + the cost per km you pay at the moment.

That is the real cost per kilometer

The most environmentally friendly thing you could do is keep your own car for as long as possible thereby saving the need for manufacture of a new vehicle, this also saves you money because your new car will lose most of its value in the first 5 years.

Or on the other hand go out and buy an electric car, but please do not try to sell it as some sort of ultra cheap/ultra clean method of transportation, when its not.

A. The electricity its powered from comes from Non Renewable sources
B. The initial manufacture of the vehicle has an enviromental cost.
C. The Battery Disposal has an environmental cost
D. Manufacturing new batteries has an enviromental cost.
E. Batteries are consumable and this is a large cost later on in the life of the vehicle and while Electric cars are mechanically simpler, the electrics are far more complicated (a failure point on a lot of cars equipped with internal combustion engines).

Its a great idea but at the moment there is no environmental benefit or really much of a cost saving due to the initial high cost of investment and again high cost of re-investment in 5 years time.

Just my 2 cents anyway after looking at the whole thing from a commuting point of view, i'm into buying second hand cars to let someone take the depreciation hit and that will never really be possible with electric/hybrid cars because you have to replace the battery pack anyway.

keithclancy

Paparazzo wrote: »

I don't need to point out the advantages of a car over a bike or public transport in the motoring forum! Add in a child and a car is pretty much essential. And you're forgetting about the people who want to pretend they're saving the planet. Actually, now the celtic tiger is dead there's a lot less of these gobshítes about.

They do just fine in other countries without a car.


Just to point that out, I know a rake of families in the Netherlands that don't own a car, or just use the Greenwheels Car Sharing scheme when they do want to use one.

smash

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

All that bus stuff is academic for me though. I'm currently averaging 2000km a month in my Leaf at a cost of €20pm.

Do you get a grant for that or something? Because surely my washing machine uses a lot less energy yet it costs a lot more to run!

krissovo

This thread is hilarious, its quite shocking the lengths that people are going to to slate this car and the arguments against it are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Its as if this electric car is a threat to peoples manhood

This event has opened my eyes to the possibility of owning one. It will fit my daily commute needs very well, its actually quite a good looking car and well spec'd. I would also enjoy getting one up on the tax man as I would drive past petrol stations on the way to work. I am not green or anything but I like to think I would do my bit even if its only to enjoy a petrol engined car for fun in my and my sons lifetime.

We would still have two oil based cars in the family, a 1977 VW camper so thats my green bit and large family saloon.

Sesshoumaru

keithclancy wrote: »

Indeed, but the Petrol Tank in the Polo doesn't cost a fortune and doesn't 'wear out' either.




Yup, a bus is far more eco friendly than your Electric car, simply becuase most Generation is done with Gas Fired Turbines.



Well I would say the initial footprint of manufacturing the Leaf in the first place and the disposal of those nasty batteries after your done with them would put the public transport only commuter in a fairly good head start.



It's not 20 euros per month though is it ? you'll need to replace those batteries in a few years at quite a cost, the real cost =
The cost to replace the entire battery pack after 5 years divided by the total amount of kilometers travelled + the cost per km you pay at the moment.

That is the real cost per kilometer

The most environmentally friendly thing you could do is keep your own car for as long as possible thereby saving the need for manufacture of a new vehicle, this also saves you money because your new car will lose most of its value in the first 5 years.

Or on the other hand go out and buy an electric car, but please do not try to sell it as some sort of ultra cheap/ultra clean method of transportation, when its not.

A. The electricity its powered from comes from Non Renewable sources
B. The initial manufacture of the vehicle has an enviromental cost.
C. The Battery Disposal has an environmental cost
D. Manufacturing new batteries has an enviromental cost.
E. Batteries are consumable and this is a large cost later on in the life of the vehicle and while Electric cars are mechanically simpler, the electrics are far more complicated (a failure point on a lot of cars equipped with internal combustion engines).

Its a great idea but at the moment there is no environmental benefit or really much of a cost saving due to the initial high cost of investment and again high cost of re-investment in 5 years time.

Just my 2 cents anyway after looking at the whole thing from a commuting point of view, i'm into buying second hand cars to let someone take the depreciation hit and that will never really be possible with electric/hybrid cars because you have to replace the battery pack anyway.

1. The polo has hundreds of moving parts in its engine that wear out. Electric motors have 3 to 5 moving parts.

2. You'll have to provide some figures to back up your claim. You have to account for the energy used to extract oil from the ground/seabed, transport it, refine it and transport it again (possibly several times) before it ever gets inside a fuel tank of any ICE vehicle. I can also if I choose to power my leaf as Gerry Wrixon has done down in Cork:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2011/0601/1224298200715.html

It is also possible to sign up with Airtricity and only purchase energy from renewable sources.

3. Firstly why do I need to replace it? Why can't it simply be refurbished in Sunderland to bring it back to 100% capacity if I need it? The battery pack doesn't stop working either, it will simply gradually reduce in capacity.

4.

* 14% of our electricity currently comes from renewables. 40% is our target by 2020.

* All manufacturing currently has an environmental cost. To suggest we stop producing new cars and rely on our existing stock of cars (ICE or EV) is not a practical option. ICE cars especially have hundreds of moving parts in their engines, these wear and maintenance costs will increase over time as you get to replacing the expensive parts of a drive system.

* You say disposal, I say recycle or reuse. A 24kwh battery pack that still has 80% capacity has many potential uses in industry or perhaps as storage for renewables. It also still contains 4kg of lithium, so no Leaf battery pack is ever going to end on the scrap heap, it will be completely recycled to extract the rare earth minerals from it.

People could also keep their old battery packs and use them as part of an investment in a home photovoltaic system. People currently only go for water heating solar panels because the energy (heat) can be stored in your immersion tank. The battery pack from a Leaf could do the same job for a home photovoltaic solar panel system. The Leaf has already been demonstrated to power your home and a commercial product for this is due out early next year from Nissan.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2011/08/05/nissan-leaf-to-power-homes/

The ESB is investing in smart metering for all homes and a smart grid. These battery packs can be charging at night helping to improve our energy efficiency and then during the day helping to meet peak demand.

You writing them off as a liability is not correct. Those packs could still be money earners in the second half of their lives.

* Everything has a manufacturing cost. I'm not trying to prove now or previously that the Leaf has no impact on the environment. If you're saying it has a significantly higher environmental impact compared to a similar spec and size ICE car, I'd ask you to prove it?

* You'll have to clarify when you think the batteries will need to be replaced and why? I've already stated they don't simply stop working some day. You gradually lose capacity. You'll also have to give me a reason why an EV owner wouldn't simply refurbish instead of purchase a new one? I also have to ask you to justify that the electrics are far more complicated?

5. I simply don't agree with your opinion. I also accept it's unlikely I'll be able to sway your opinion. So all I'll say is lets pick this up in 5 years time. Good or bad I'll let people know how I got on.

Hiace.

My one and only criteria is total inclusive cost over 5/10 years in comparison to buying a new petrol / diesel over 5 years.

Not gizmo's or toys.

Would anyone have the true cost comparison figures of both ?

Taking all costs into account, inc. loss of interest of money on deposit.

Sesshoumaru

Hiace. wrote: »

My one and only criteria is total inclusive cost over 5/10 years in comparison to buying a new petrol / diesel over 5 years.

Not gizmo's or toys.

Would anyone have the true cost comparison figures of both ?

Taking all costs into account, inc. loss of interest of money on deposit.

I have a straight forward point. It is not a fair comparison to compare the Leaf against a Bentley Continental GT or against a Nissan Micra. Neither of those cars are in the same segment as the Nissan Leaf. A fair comparison is the Leaf versus another new car of similar size, refinement level and specification.

You can try to wriggle out of it by changing "specification level" to "gizmo's or toys". However most people want those "toys" as you put it and a cars secondhand value is affected by its specification level.

You still have not answered what car you used in your comparison example?

dynamick

Leaf may be worth importing from the UK in a couple of months.
There is no VRT so you just pay currency change say 15%. I imagine you would get one for below €22K after christmas.

Compare to say qashqai auto which starts at 30K. Price is not so mental after all.

I do <5 trips over 150km per year. The lure of 16 euro a month for fuel is pretty strong.

I guess you are taking a risk with battery life/cost but what is the experience with say prius battery pack? This has been around since 04 and they've sold millions. You can balance battery price risk with not having engine troubles. Diesel part failures can be very dear.

smash

Any chance you can answer my question above http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74354287&postcount=194

krissovo

smash wrote: »

Any chance you can answer my question above http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74354287&postcount=194

Sesshoumaru has posted plenty of evidence of the running costs, even the bloody car keeps a record of the costs. The question is pointless, your washing machine I expect is on during the expensive electricity rate and the car is charged using a night rate. So even if the car uses more energy its charged at night when there is little demand for electricity.