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Cannonball Run in the Leaf
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Do you get a grant for that or something? Because surely my washing machine uses a lot less energy yet it costs a lot more to run!
Night rate electricity is cheaper because power stations can't be turned off at night. This means we generate a lot of electricity at night that is wasted. Hence it is offered at a lower rate to consumers. We bought these timer things (very technical I know (= ) that we plug into our socket and then plug our dryer and washing machine into. We can turn on the dryer and washing machine, but the plug timer thingy doesn't let the juice start flowing until after midnight, which is when we get cheaper night rate electricity.
The Leaf has a charging timer as well. I come home and plug my car in and it talks to the charger on my wall. But currently it is set not to draw charge from the charger until 00:10 every night. So my car uses electricity that would otherwise be wasted, increasing our efficiency and I get cheaper night rate electricity to power my car.
The car keeps track of all energy taken in and generated by itself. Using the cars built-in data connection it uploads this data online daily and you can login via portal and check for yourself how much its been costing you.
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This thread is hilarious, its quite shocking the lengths that people are going to to slate this car and the arguments against it are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Its as if this electric car is a threat to peoples manhood
This event has opened my eyes to the possibility of owning one. It will fit my daily commute needs very well, its actually quite a good looking car and well spec'd. I would also enjoy getting one up on the tax man as I would drive past petrol stations on the way to work. I am not green or anything but I like to think I would do my bit even if its only to enjoy a petrol engined car for fun in my and my sons lifetime.
We would still have two oil based cars in the family, a 1977 VW camper so thats my green bit and large family saloon.
in all fairness while most of us are not fans of electric cars were not trying to entirely dismissing the electric car , just trying to reason as to why the ESB is trying to sell this to everybody and claim it can currently compete with any car across a range. Even car manufacturers wont do that, ive never opened a paper to see ' hey, you in the 4x4 doing mega miles towing, buy a golf instead' the esb pulled this stunt to get some publicity for electric cars and try and dispel the notion that they are no use for long range driving , the only thing they did was re-enforce that.
once enough people inside a close commute to a city(the exact people that for the last 10 years the government has been pleading with to use public transport) buy these electric cars then suddenly both the esb and the government will turn around and go 'fcuk , suddenly these charging points are costing us more money , and the people who would previously have considered the bus are now always taking their green-machines so its time to rise the price of parking and electricity for charging EV's to discourage them again'.
That coupled with the esb having to run 3 phase lines to all these DC quick chargers, the inevitability of the EV's being taxed at the same rate as the A or B cars and the one day eventually that some scummers light one of these on fire and the batteries cause an explosion that takes out the nearest 4 cars around it , then suddenly youll have every EV driver asking themselves why did I buy this, the electricity costs make a polo cheaper to fuel , the tax is the same, and my insurance is huge because of the damage if one of these goes on fire.
also a 30 minute quick charge - after the government takes away the subsidys it will probably be what, a 10er maybee , possibly more . but lets say your out in the bog arse of meath some day , theres only 1 charger, and some lads just pulled up, you have 2km left on your EV so you cant leave , so now you have to wait at a petrol station for an hour, what are you going to do for an hour ...... probably buy a coffee and a muffin , or a pack of smokes, if you have kids with you probably sweets to shut them up , so now your 10 euro has turned into 20 or more easily on things you wouldnt have bought otherwise. So you leave and set off out of there just as broke as you would have been with a polo , the diference is your time has been wasted and you know if you leave the m50 belt this will most likely happen again0 -
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OK, I was curious.
Skoda Octavia Greenline 1.6 TDI is 21K. It does 3.8l/100km (around 5.7c/km) and comes with similar toys (cruise, bluetooth etc.) and has a similar power output(77 kW vs 80 kW). I can't find any specs for the boot size of the Leaf, so lets assume they are comparable. Both are band A road tax.
100,000 miles in the leaf will cost 30,000 plus 223/19000*160000 = around €31,877
100,000 miles in the Greenline will cost 21,745 plus 0.57*160000 = 30,865
(based on numbers here: http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/PricingAndRunningCosts.aspx
and here: http://www.skoda.ie/IRL/Documents/PricingAndSpecs/26July2011/Octavia_Aug2011%20DDB.pdf)
Oh, and the range of the Skoda is over 1000 miles per tank.
You're leaving out a lot of important factors. The Leaf is operating at 100% efficiency the second you hit the start button. The car in your example is using a combined figure for fuel economy that you only achieve once the engine warms up and you reach optimal operating parameters. In reality the short school run, popping out to the local newsagent etc will be trips that are undertaken when engine conditions are not optimal.
You also assume electricity and diesel stay the same price over those 160k kilometers. Diesel IMO will rise more than electricity. I posted earlier about smart grids, smart metering and the role EV's can play in those. You can look it up in this thread if you want to argue against electricity not rising as fast as diesel. Oil is finite and demand is increasing.
Another important consideration is that the Leaf has no oil, filters, spark plugs etc and because it uses regenerative braking, the brake pads will wear less. There are hundreds of moving parts in the Greenline's engine that can go wrong. In fact normally in Motors I seem to recall most posters arguing that these ultra fuel efficient diesels will have reliability issues in later years. It's ironic now that most people pick them out now as weapon against EV's
Speaking of super efficient diesels, don't expect the current crop to stay in the same tax band as the Leaf for much longer. There are newer diesels coming to the market soon that will have lower emissions. I would expect the government at the very least to create a new tax band that accounts for these newer super efficient diesels. There is a possibility then that EV's will get another lower tax band.
All that said, the Leaf is a way nicer car than the Octavia Greenline. It revs almost silently to over 10k RPM in a single gear transmission. That is smoothness and refinement an Octavia Greenline can't beat. I took a Greenline Superb for test drive before buying the Leaf, I'd recommend anyone arguing against the Leaf at least take the opportunity for a free test drive of one.0 -
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My diesel runs very close to the manufacturers specs on economy, and I work in town. I got 4.8km/l on long trips which is above the published figures.Sesshoumaru wrote: »You're leaving out a lot of important factors. The Leaf is operating at 100% efficiency the second you hit the start button. The car in your example is using a combined figure for fuel economy that you only achieve once the engine warms up and you reach optimal operating parameters. In reality the short school run, popping out to the local newsagent etc will be trips that are undertaken when engine conditions are not optimal.You also assume electricity and diesel stay the same price over those 160k kilometers. Diesel IMO will rise more than electricity. I posted earlier about smart grids, smart metering and the role EV's can play in those. You can look it up in this thread if you want to argue against electricity not rising as fast as diesel. Oil is finite and demand is increasing.
That is your opinion and has no basis in basic economics. Just because you can get it from a renewable source doesn't mean they won't charge more for it inline with what ESB are charging for electricity from non-renewables.
Oh, and electricity is going up 15% this month while the price of oil is falling.Another important consideration is that the Leaf has no oil, filters, spark plugs etc and because it uses regenerative braking, the brake pads will wear less. There are hundreds of moving parts in the Greenline's engine that can go wrong. In fact normally in Motors I seem to recall most posters arguing that these ultra fuel efficient diesels will have reliability issues in later years. It's ironic now that most people pick them out now as weapon against EV's
Opinions on Motors are just that. there is a recent thread where it has been discussed and people have posted lots of examples of modern diesels without problems. My father in law recently had the head gasket go on his 2004 citroen at 250,000 miles.
And there is still the battery issue with the Leaf, which is an unknown and could easily cost more than a DMF or DPF or turbo.Speaking of super efficient diesels, don't expect the current crop to stay in the same tax band as the Leaf for much longer. There are newer diesels coming to the market soon that will have lower emissions. I would expect the government at the very least to create a new tax band that accounts for these newer super efficient diesels. There is a possibility then that EV's will get another lower tax band.
That sounds like pure speculation. I'd be interested if you have a reliable source for it.All that said, the Leaf is a way nicer car than the Octavia Greenline. It revs almost silently to over 10k RPM in a single gear transmission. That is smoothness and refinement an Octavia Greenline can't beat. I took a Greenline Superb for test drive before buying the Leaf, I'd recommend anyone arguing against the Leaf at least take the opportunity for a free test drive of one.
I've driven the Superb myself - it's hardly agricultural. I still can't get over the range problem. I did 400km over the weekend in 3 journeys and on the return trip I had 6 in the car. I averaged 6.8l/100km over the whole trip.. On Saturday night I wouldn't have been able to charge an EV car. Even if it covered 95% of my journeys, I'm still screwed when it doesn't.0 -
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Sesshoumaru wrote: »1. The polo has hundreds of moving parts in its engine that wear out. Electric motors have 3 to 5 moving parts.
Transistors and Switches wear out, electrics in Cars fail, with the whole car being electric parts can fail also, motors can wear out, bearings can fail, switches can break, wires can fray. Otherwise IBM, Siemens, ASML and Flextronics would never have anything in rework or returns.2. You'll have to provide some figures to back up your claim. You have to account for the energy used to extract oil from the ground/seabed, transport it, refine it and transport it again (possibly several times) before it ever gets inside a fuel tank of any ICE vehicle. I can also if I choose to power my leaf as Gerry Wrixon has done down in Cork:
Not really, you still have to extract Gas from the ground and transport it via Pipeline, actually the Coal fired plants are even worse since you use more energy the deeper you go.It is also possible to sign up with Airtricity and only purchase energy from renewable sources.
Good one there, not how the grid works i'm afraid.
TSO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_system_operator) tells the the non renewable operators how much energy to generate to make up the peak power short fall for when the wind isn't blowing.
Unless you have a personal Windfarm out the back your not getting Wind power out the wire.
You need non renewable energy to account for every mw/h you generate on renewable. Hence why gas fired turbine is the choice in Ireland, starts up very quickly to satisfy peak power needs.3. Firstly why do I need to replace it? Why can't it simply be refurbished in Sunderland to bring it back to 100% capacity if I need it? The battery pack doesn't stop working either, it will simply gradually reduce in capacity.
Bit of an assumption/wishful thinking there.
Batteries are consumable items, this has been the case always for a very long time.* 14% of our electricity currently comes from renewables. 40% is our target by 2020.
Capacity .... very big difference, not consumption. When the Wind isn't blowing you need to supplement the grid with Gas Fired Turbine. If the wind isn't blowing what are they supposed to do, do a wind dance ?* All manufacturing currently has an environmental cost. To suggest we stop producing new cars and rely on our existing stock of cars (ICE or EV) is not a practical option. ICE cars especially have hundreds of moving parts in their engines, these wear and maintenance costs will increase over time as you get to replacing the expensive parts of a drive system.
Again, Electronic Items are also prone to failure, just like mechanical, everything has a Duty Cycle.* You say disposal, I say recycle or reuse. A 24kwh battery pack that still has 80% capacity has many potential uses in industry or perhaps as storage for renewables. It also still contains 4kg of lithium, so no Leaf battery pack is ever going to end on the scrap heap, it will be completely recycled to extract the rare earth minerals from it.
Aluminum is recyclable but everything has an energy cost.People could also keep their old battery packs and use them as part of an investment in a home photovoltaic system. People currently only go for water heating solar panels because the energy (heat) can be stored in your immersion tank. The battery pack from a Leaf could do the same job for a home photovoltaic solar panel system. The Leaf has already been demonstrated to power your home and a commercial product for this is due out early next year from Nissan.
This is more suitable for hot countries, but again this is wishful thinking, I thought you were going to send them back to the Manufacturer for some rebate/recycle/reuse scheme (which i do not believe Nissan have announced)
You can't just lash on a load of intelligent batteries to a Solar Panel array. Even then you'd need a DC - AC Converter unless you were running a seperate circuit in your house for DC Devices only.http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2011/08/05/nissan-leaf-to-power-homes/
The ESB is investing in smart metering for all homes and a smart grid. These battery packs can be charging at night helping to improve our energy efficiency and then during the day helping to meet peak demand.
You writing them off as a liability is not correct. Those packs could still be money earners in the second half of their lives.
Absolutely cracked, cannot just plug in DC to an AC Supply, why the hell would I invest a load of money for a UPS in my house ???* Everything has a manufacturing cost. I'm not trying to prove now or previously that the Leaf has no impact on the environment. If you're saying it has a significantly higher environmental impact compared to a similar spec and size ICE car, I'd ask you to prove it?
http://environment.about.com/od/environmentfriendlyautos/a/new_old_cars.htmThe Environmental Cost of Hybrids and Electric Cars
And don’t forget that the new hybrids—despite lower emissions and better gas mileage—actually have a much larger environmental impact in their manufacture, compared to non-hybrids. The batteries that store energy for the drive train are no friend to the environment—and having two engines under one hood increases manufacturing emissions. And all-electric vehicles are only emission-free if the outlet providing the juice is connected to a renewable energy source, not a coal-burning power plant, as is more likely.* You'll have to clarify when you think the batteries will need to be replaced and why? I've already stated they don't simply stop working some day. You gradually lose capacity. You'll also have to give me a reason why an EV owner wouldn't simply refurbish instead of purchase a new one? I also have to ask you to justify that the electrics are far more complicated?
If this was the case, Laptop manufacturers would be 'refurbishing' batteries on a massive scale and reselling them, manufacturers are always cagey about stating any sort of figures around Duty Cycles.5. I simply don't agree with your opinion. I also accept it's unlikely I'll be able to sway your opinion. So all I'll say is lets pick this up in 5 years time. Good or bad I'll let people know how I got on.
Besides all this i'm agreeing with you, Electric cars are a great step forward from a technology perspective.
However posting a cost per kw hr and how much 'cleaner' it is, is just wrong. Come back in 5 years and tell us the real cost.
Similarly I do not take my monthly cost on Diesel and say thats how much it costs me to run my car.
Although the Petrol/Diesel brigade have been having the Cost of Fuel vs the DPF/DMF/Turbo argument for ages.
Its not a dig at you personally, I'd have an electric car tomorrow, but at the moment a car that runs on CNG is Cleaner and more efficient than an electric car:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/opel/2008-opel-zafira-16-cng-ar57543.html
Simply because rather than having to burn the Gas to fire the turbine it goes straight into the car.
End of the day this Electric car roll-out is just a new flavor of the decade, hopefully it'll take off, but LPG and CNG have been around on the continent for ages and work away just find with 10 times lower emissions and less than half the cost of Diesel.
Remember as well that to support electric cars, you need massive Grid investment, you do not need this for CNG or LPG Cars.
And as well, electricity is just as vulnerable to price changes as fossil fuels as they are run by fossil fuels.
Anyways, Environmentally I think I can contribute allot more by saving energy (turning off lights, double glazing, smart meter, turning off electronic devices, putting on a jumper instead of turning on the heating) and it saves money ! Rather than going out and blowing a wad of cash on a brand new leaf and then blowing another wad of cash on batteries in 5 years time.
And having to spend another wad on a second car to have so we can drive from Cork/Dublin without having to hang around for half an hour each way and try to find a charging point thats actually there .. or available, bit of a wait if theres 3 people in the queue.0 -
keithclancy wrote: »Transistors and
*snip*
I will respond to everything you posted, just not right now. I don't have the time currently. You'll have to understand I'm just one guy with an EV against what seems like all of Motors sometimes But for now I can assure you I read all of your post and I know mostly what I want to say in reply. But I do want to point out something.
I've already mentioned previously being part of a small semi formal EV lobby group. We've spoken with various state entities and I can at least relay to you that technology like this:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/03/nissans-leaf-to-home-system-sends-power-back-to-your-house-or/
is definitely on the agenda, along with smart metering and investing in a smart grid for Ireland, all things I mentioned in posts on this thread. These all tie in together with why I think EV's will be successful and the greater role they will play. I'm not sure you're looking at the details of my posts as closely as I think they deserve
In your post you questioned solar arrays in Ireland yet I did link to an article in the IT about Prof Gerry Wrixon in Cork using a solar array to power his personal Leaf. He has done it and talked about it.
You also questioned DC to AC for your home and mentioned a separate DC circuit, but you wouldn't have said this if you had read what I posted I think? I think instead you would have questioned the usefulness of this technology from the Japanese manufacturers:
http://www.tokyotimes.jp/post/en/2236/Mitsubishi+Nissan+and+Toyota+to+power+homes.html
Anyways I'm thinking maybe I'll put my neck on the line and go to a Motors meetup Could I survive the slagging? Maybe! 0 -
I never came back on this because...well frankly because I getting a bit bored of all the point scoring and stubbornness.
I don't think anybody is 'trumpeting' about how quickly their car re-fuels:pac:!! It's something we take pretty much for granted. Any situation where you have to spend x number of HOURS re-charging or topping up is a pretty fecking retrograde step IMO.
Another thing - the fact that a semi-state like the ESB are flogging this so hard makes me a bit uncomfortable TBH. I know fuel prices fluctuate and historically shortages are not an impossibility but I don't fancy being any more reliant on Brendan Ogle and his bunch of (well paid) merry men than I have to be.
I just don't get why you're so hung up on this EV thing anyway. You've not once (I think) mentioned any strongly held green/environmental reasons. Is is purely for the thrill of hypermiling?
Even if if the Leaf and it's ilk are the next iPhone 1 rather than Betamax I don't see the point in being an early adopter (apart from trying to triumphantly evangelicalise us poor, misinformed ICE heads:D) .
You really think the Motors forum is about each of us coming on to boast how 'awesome' our cars are:o? The best and most regular contributors here barely ever refer to their own cars (apart from a few Skoda drivers).
Look, if you're happy with your Leaf fair dues. I'll be sticking with the boring old ICE until something better comes along.
I work in IT and so does my wife. We're both IT professionals and for sure part of the reason is it's a very cool high tech gadget for us. I have to stress though that is only part of the reason. I can also tell you that a lot of the people I've met who own Leafs are also IT professionals. So I don't mind admitting there is at least a small element of gadget love there for some owners. Not everyone who has a Leaf works in IT or has a technical background.
You're also right about the environmental part, I'm not a green crusader. But I'm not a climate change skeptic either. I also consider myself a realist when it comes to oil supply. Oil is finite and countries like China, India and Brasil want more and more of it. When I think about everyone in those countries having an oil powered car, I mean what will that do to the price of oil? The population of the EU is half a billion roughly right? India and China alone are over 4 times our population. Our population level is declining and developing countries are still increasing. Oil is finite and running out, how can it not be when supply is finite and demand is increasing?
I think you're being too hard on me as well. You'll have to admit I've come up against strong emotive opposition to EV's on Motors. I'm not really into going around saying how great my car is. But I do understand a little bit how Skoda owners feel about the constant online slagging Out in the real world when people come up to you they haven't as of yet said "your car is sh1t". They're mostly curious and just want to ask questions.
I've said it before and I'll say it a million times again. I won't try to ram an EV down someones throat. If you or anyone else is happy with ICE, then I'm happy for you. For me IMO an EV is the next logical step. I'm not an all wise and all knowing oracle, so I'm happy enough to admit I could be wrong. I just don't think I am.0 -
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If you run out of juice on the m50 can you get the aa or a friend to bring you a fiver worth of electricity? If you leave the leaf in the airport long term car park will the charge be the same as you left it or will it deteriorate? And when these pumps aren't free at petrol stations any more, how much will it cos to charge it do you think? Especially with rising electricity costs.
Lastly, don't expect ev to have a low tax band for long. If people start to switch, then the government will want money from somewhere.
I've always been of the opinion that electric is not the future, we as a race need to concentrate on fuels like hydrogen and learn how to produce them cheaper.
http://www.gizmag.com/roadside-service-vehicle-for-electric-vehicles/18856/
In the US enterprising private companies have even strapped a regular DC charger onto the back of a flatbed
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011/07/carscom-field-trial-mobile-ev-quick-charging-.html
No one knows what the price will be when DC stations are no longer free. It's not a big deal for me though, as it's been rare that I've had an actual need to use one. I have heard some suggestions on what the likes of Topaz are considering. I'll mention them if you're really interested?0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »I think you're being too hard on me as well. You'll have to admit I've come up against strong emotive opposition to EV's on Motors. I'm not really into going around saying how great my car is. But I do understand a little bit how Skoda owners feel about the constant online slagging Out in the real world when people come up to you they haven't as of yet said "your car is sh1t". They're mostly curious and just want to ask questions.
I usually listen to what's being said on Motors and do the exact opposite. Most peoples opinions on here are recycled Clarksonisms and regardless what your car, someone will take a dislike to it. I can see the logic in much of what you're saying, but some of it seems to be wishful thinking regarding the cost to replace the battery and the potential for future battery development.
I'd love an electric car. I really would. Most of my driving is commuting into town so I should be the target market. Unfortunately, at the moment it just doesn't make sense. For the same purchase price as the Leaf I bought a 7 seater 2L diesel that will suit my needs 100% of the time.
If I could get a basic spec electric car (ie. reasonably comfortable with aircon and 4 seats) for 10 - 15K with the same performance and limitations as the Leaf then I could justify it as a second car. But I think it will be a long time before that happens.
If I do go for a second car I would consider something like the original Honda Insight, invest in a second battery pack and swap batteries at night. Much of the benefits of electric, but without the range issues.0 -
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Sesshoumaru wrote: »I will respond to everything you posted, just not right now. I don't have the time currently. You'll have to understand I'm just one guy with an EV against what seems like all of Motors sometimes But for now I can assure you I read all of your post and I know mostly what I want to say in reply. But I do want to point out something.
I've already mentioned previously being part of a small semi formal EV lobby group. We've spoken with various state entities and I can at least relay to you that technology like this:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/03/nissans-leaf-to-home-system-sends-power-back-to-your-house-or/is definitely on the agenda, along with smart metering and investing in a smart grid for Ireland, all things I mentioned in posts on this thread. These all tie in together with why I think EV's will be successful and the greater role they will play. I'm not sure you're looking at the details of my posts as closely as I think they deserve
Yes, I read engadget as well, but Engadget didn't report the whole story and how this idea came about:
http://gas2.org/2011/08/03/the-nissan-leaf-electric-car-backup-home-power-generator/After the March 11th earthquake and tsunami shook northeasternJapan, many people were left without power or gasoline for days on end. Then stories emerged about people who used their hybrid and electric cars to power the base necessities that helped them survive. Automakers were quick to jump on board, and the idea obviously has some merit. Whether it is just a brief power outage or a massive natural disaster, the ability to plug your home into your car adds a whole new level of versatility to electric cars.
Why would you want to 'sell' power back to the grid from an Electric car ? Wouldn't you need the car charged to go places ?
When have we had a natural disaster in Ireland ?In your post you questioned solar arrays in Ireland yet I did link to an article in the IT about Prof Gerry Wrixon in Cork using a solar array to power his personal Leaf. He has done it and talked about it.
Solar Panels are expensive, I'm not disputing that they work, just that they're suited more to Hot Countries, theres a Government grant available here in the Netherlands (as I'm sure there is in Ireland) but the initial cost of investment is quite high to merit the sporadic effective output of the panels during three/four months of the year.You also questioned DC to AC for your home and mentioned a separate DC circuit, but you wouldn't have said this if you had read what I posted I think? I think instead you would have questioned the usefulness of this technology from the Japanese manufacturers:
I'm not saying it impossible, UPS Technology has been around for years, its expensive and I certainly wouldn't want to use Duty cycles on my electric car to power my house on Night Saver electricity.
http://www.tokyotimes.jp/post/en/2236/Mitsubishi+Nissan+and+Toyota+to+power+homes.html
The powering homes idea is for Japan becuase they are in a Natural Disaster Scenario with power shortages around the country.
You might be a big advocate of EV, I am an advocate of Alternative Energy sources. I would say Natural Gas is the best stepping stone used directly in the car, then you can use European Gas stores. to power vehicles.
Powering your Car with Electricity from Gas/Coal is not Environmentally friendly, infact the whole rollout of EV in Germany has been stalled by the Government announcement surrounding closure of the RWE and E.ON Nuclear Power Plants since the disaster in Japan (Although I guess they will probably do a U-Turn at some stage when they are not looking for votes)
And as I said, you need 1 mWh for every 1 mWh on Renewable, besides, Wind Power as an example wouldnt exist without Government subsidies anyway.
Again my main points are:
1. The cost per km is the cost of electricity + the cost of the battery as a consumable item per Kilometer, you cannot tell us this cost becuase nobody knows yet what the cost is.
2. The enviromental cost is higher than is advertised.
3. The cost of wholesale Electricity is no less volatile than the cost of Fossil Fuels, since Irelands power generation comes from Fossil Fuels, price is increasing quite soon I believe.
While Ireland is powered by Gas, Coal and Imported power, Electric cars aren't very Feasible. As you have said it doesn't suit allot of people, this to me would say it will be very hard for it to hit critical mass to have wide area availability of charging infrastructure.
Again as I said, technically great, IMO wrong country for it. Should have went with CNG/LPG first.0 -
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keithclancy wrote: »I can only remember 3 power cuts in 10 years living in Cork
3 in the last month if you were in the Fermoy area
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flanders2006 wrote: »
Is it me or does it look like anyone can just steal that cable, these cars would work out great in the some parts of Dublin (ahem)
btw had a powercut this morning, time to invest in UPS before my computer breaks
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@keithclancy
You would sell electricity back to the grid because your car would be part of a smart grid the ESB are planning on investing in.
http://www.smartgrid.epri.com/Demo.aspx
http://www.smartgrid.epri.com/doc/1020598%20ESB%20Smart%20Grid%20Project%20Overview.pdf
Smart metering has already been installed in some homes in Ireland.
I linked to the story on the Nissan/Mitsubishi/Toyota home charger that allows you to run your home from your car to demonstrate that linking your EV to a smart grid is not wishful thinking.
I think you missed the main thrust of my argument. That is smart grid and what I feel are inevitable improvements considering the money now flowing into EV battery research and manufacturing
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10303477-54.html
Your link about the environmental costs of EV's was more about the environmental cost of hybrids.
http://environment.about.com/od/environmentfriendlyautos/a/new_old_cars.htmAnd don’t forget that the new hybrids—despite lower emissions and better gas mileage—actually have a much larger environmental impact in their manufacture, compared to non-hybrids. The batteries that store energy for the drive train are no friend to the environment—and having two engines under one hood increases manufacturing emissions. And all-electric vehicles are only emission-free if the outlet providing the juice is connected to a renewable energy source, not a coal-burning power plant, as is more likely.
The part I've highlighted, my reading of this is that they are talking about hybrids here. The bottom part about EV's I already know. Nobody is saying they are 100% clean. However they do get greener as the power supply gets greener. How dirty are they currently? MIT have done a well to wheel analysis.
http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf
By the way as a smart grid advocate, I'm all for diversification. I honestly don't know a whole lot about the pros and cons of LPG. For me it's still a fossil fuel, but perhaps it is one we could utilise within Europe? I'm also all for stepping stones onto greater things. I don't think anyone wants to be discussing the price of a litre of petrol/diesel in the next century.0 -
Is it me or does it look like anyone can just steal that cable, these cars would work out great in the some parts of Dublin (ahem)
btw had a powercut this morning, time to invest in UPS before my computer breaks
The cable automatically locks on the charger side. On the car side it can be locked using a physical lock. Of course with enough force you could rip it off, not without doing serious damage to both car and charger. Best of luck to those who want to play with electricity
I'm moving my insurance policy to Zurich soon as they have a special EV policy that covers theft of the cable.0 -
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4.4 X5 here and love it
Thank god for the recession :P luxury driving is finally within reach
Btw for the price of Leaf I would pay for my 4x4, pay top tax for few years, insurance, AND all the petrol and still have enough left over to put into savings
Why waste a fortune on an "electric version of a Micra" when you can drive a beast of car (courtesy of FF dragging the country down the dumps) and have fun while at it.
For some reason you remind me of this fella:
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For some reason you remind me of this fella:
Lol don't know who he is...
This whole
"recession == bad"
or
"must save the planet for the Chinese (who will **** all over it anyways)"
or
"lets spend few K extra on a diesel to save few cents on petrol"
mentality is a bad buzz,
Hell there are some really nice cars now available courtesy of the "recessionTM" like nice M5s for ~22K :eek:0 -
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