EMT Drug Packs

nqemt

Hi all,
Just wondering what the policy is from OMAC/SJA/CD on drug packs?
IRC policy at the moment is that all drug packs are stored on the ambulace and that includes the OTC aspirin/paracetomol. Is this the policy with the other Voluntarys.
As a PHECC registered EMT, I find it hard to understand why the drug pack such only be used when your on an ambulance, considering that most duties we would do, dont want an ambulance because of the cost involve. We have all undergone the same course and have been PHECC registered, yet our Medica Officer has decreed that we cant carry them on non ambulance duties. Is this right? if some one has an astma attack we cant treat them, same for allergic reactions as were not allowed to carry the drugs. Its not him that ends up in court if someone dies because we dont have the relevant drugs or has to explain to a family why someone died or to face the wrath of a Paramedic or Advanced Paramedic from HSE/DFB.

I know there is an issue with insurance but if people have the relevant skills and are signed of and licensed whats the problem.

scholar007

nqemt wrote: »

Hi all,
Just wondering what the policy is from OMAC/SJA/CD on drug packs?
IRC policy at the moment is that all drug packs are stored on the ambulace and that includes the OTC aspirin/paracetomol. Is this the policy with the other Voluntarys.
As a PHECC registered EMT, I find it hard to understand why the drug pack such only be used when your on an ambulance, considering that most duties we would do, dont want an ambulance because of the cost involve. We have all undergone the same course and have been PHECC registered, yet our Medica Officer has decreed that we cant carry them on non ambulance duties. Is this right? if some one has an astma attack we cant treat them, same for allergic reactions as were not allowed to carry the drugs. Its not him that ends up in court if someone dies because we dont have the relevant drugs or has to explain to a family why someone died or to face the wrath of a Paramedic or Advanced Paramedic from HSE/DFB.

I know there is an issue with insurance but if people have the relevant skills and are signed of and licensed whats the problem.

First Aid is the immediate aid a victim of an accident or sudden illness receives before the arrival of more qualified medical personnel. I would also add an addendum to this that First Aid is the immediate aid a victim of an accident or sudden illness receives with what is available at the time before the arrival of drugs / spinal board / suction unit big yellow taxi etc.

Basically ya do your best with what ya got. Also you make the HSE/DFB lads and lassies sound like big scary monsters - I don't think wrath is a good description. Be safe out there!

miju

nqemt wrote: »

Just wondering what the policy is from OMAC/SJA/CD on drug packs?

not to back seat mod but it's against the charter to discuss various policies / SOPs from the org on the forum.

nqemt wrote: »

As a PHECC registered EMT, I find it hard to understand why the drug pack such only be used when your on an ambulance, considering that most duties we would do, dont want an ambulance because of the cost involve.

That would be an internal issue really within the IRC. Dont forget as you are registered with the IRC as a practioner you would have to follow their SOPs.

Mycroft H

You find the same problem when a SJA/OMAC/IRC/CD EMT/EFR carries a O2 bottle in the boot of their car in case they need it across their travels.

Plenty of people do, I know of several myself but its usually against organisational procedures to do so.

Our drug bag never leaves the ambulance and thats our procedure. No point fighting against it.

nqemt

To Scholar007,
Dont quote me the definition of First Aid, the IRC SOP's are flawed, I'm talking about saving lives, whats the point of doing courses if the SOP's say i cant practivce what im trained to do or what phecc and the cpg's say im allowed to do, do yoyu see my pont.

miju

nqemt wrote: »

To Scholar007,
Dont quote me the definition of First Aid, the IRC SOP's are flawed, I'm talking about saving lives, whats the point of doing courses if the SOP's say i cant practivce what im trained to do or what phecc and the cpg's say im allowed to do, do yoyu see my pont.

Becuase unless you have your own insurance policy you have to follow the organisations SOP otherwise anything goes wrong your on your own

Mycroft H

nqemt wrote: »

To Scholar007,
Dont quote me the definition of First Aid, the IRC SOP's are flawed, I'm talking about saving lives, whats the point of doing courses if the SOP's say i cant practivce what im trained to do or what phecc and the cpg's say im allowed to do, do yoyu see my pont.

Your organization procedures override your CPGs in anycase.


Write to your regional Medical Officer to inquire about policies if you want to.

scholar007

nqemt wrote: »

To Scholar007,
Dont quote me the definition of First Aid, the IRC SOP's are flawed, I'm talking about saving lives, whats the point of doing courses if the SOP's say i cant practivce what im trained to do or what phecc and the cpg's say im allowed to do, do yoyu see my pont.

If you are not happy with the IRC's SOP's then I'm sure there are proper channels you can go through within the IRC to suggest changes. Going around with drugs (contrary to your voluntary organisations' SOP's and insurance cover) in your First Aid kit or car and administering them to a casualty could result in a large load of excrement coming into contact with the moveable part of an air conditioning unit, should anything undesirable happen to said casualty.

I would also be concerned about people carrying bottles of oxygen in the boot of their car. In the event of a serious rear end collision, I would imagine that being covered by their insurance for the possible explosion which could occur would be the least of their worries.

Please don't take the head off me, I'm only voicing my concerns regarding working outside of the IRC's SOP's because, if you do and something happens, then you are on your own. Have a chat with one of your senior officers and your Medical Officer and express your views and see what they say.

Hooch

nqemt wrote: »

Hi all,
Just wondering what the policy is from OMAC/SJA/CD on drug packs?
IRC policy at the moment is that all drug packs are stored on the ambulace and that includes the OTC aspirin/paracetomol. Is this the policy with the other Voluntarys.
As a PHECC registered EMT, I find it hard to understand why the drug pack such only be used when your on an ambulance, considering that most duties we would do, dont want an ambulance because of the cost involve. We have all undergone the same course and have been PHECC registered, yet our Medica Officer has decreed that we cant carry them on non ambulance duties. Is this right? if some one has an astma attack we cant treat them, same for allergic reactions as were not allowed to carry the drugs. Its not him that ends up in court if someone dies because we dont have the relevant drugs or has to explain to a family why someone died or to face the wrath of a Paramedic or Advanced Paramedic from HSE/DFB.

I know there is an issue with insurance but if people have the relevant skills and are signed of and licensed whats the problem.

There is no easy way o say this but from reading your very few posts I find myself questioning are PHECC just giving away EMT licences these days??

I find most of your posts unsettling to be honest. If you cant follow simple organisational SOPs then how can you be trusted to follow CPGs.....even your above comments in regards medications are worrying me.......And I wouldnt expect im on my own.

As an organization who is PHECC recognised for whatever level CPGs, they must submit what CPGs they intend to use and THEIR own clinical director must stand over the CPGs picked and the procedures in place. If something goes wrong in the field it will come back on PHECC, your organisation and the Clinical Director to explain why it went wrong.

My opinion is simple....more restrictions on drugs the better.....its the one area most EMTs fall down on from lack of practice.

miju wrote: »

not to back seat mod but it's against the charter to discuss various policies / SOPs from the org on the forum.

MOD POST - Not as such, that part of the charter refers to Emergency services personnel, as in Gardaí, ambulance and Fire service where most directives/SOPs are not public knowledge.....IE if it is public knowledge and is freely available then post away....if its a state secret that could land the poster or boards.ie in trouble then no you cant post it.

I wouldnt see a problem with vol units discussing standard practice etc......I am open to suggestions/correction.:)

Hooch

scholar007 wrote: »

I would also be concerned about people carrying bottles of oxygen in the boot of their car. In the event of a serious rear end collision, I would imagine that being covered by their insurance for the possible explosion which could occur would be the least of their worries.

It is a legal requirement for you to inform your insurance company of carrying compressed oxygen and getting the correct class of insurance.

Also it is a requirement to have a compressed gas sticker on the front and rear for such.

civdef

Also it is a requirement to have a compressed gas sticker on the front and rear for such.

Have you a ref for that one, often hear it quoted, but never could find a specific provision.

Hooch

civdef wrote: »

Have you a ref for that one, often hear it quoted, but never could find a specific provision.

It's a requirement from the insurance company once you inform them that it's 02. There is no legal requirement that I know of to have one but I'll ask health and safety and get back to you!

civdef

Fair enough on the insurance thing, if only to avoid giving them an excuse not to pay out if anything happened. Don't think the label is required by all companies though.

As fas as I'm aware, the legal requirements under ADR or whatever wouldn't apply to private transport of small quantities of compressed gases.

baronflyguy

Following on from what was just mentioned, does that mean the insurance companies require a label on joe bloggs car who could be exchanging gas cylinder bottles at a local garage for domestic use?

donkey balls

For someone going to the local fuel merchant to get a cylinder of gas for the BBQ they do not require a sticker on their car,As for other vehicles having to have the UN regonised green sticker on the boot or back door of the vehicle it is to alert the emergency svcs if the vehicle is in an accident that they know that there could be a cylinder of compressed gas on board.
From memory this does not fall under the ADR rules due to the small qauntity carried if it did the vehicle would be required to have the kemler plates/stickers on the front&back of the vehicle(orange coloured),Also if your carrying any kind of compressed gas it should be carried in a well ventilated area and kept away from any source of heat remember these can turn into mini torpedo.;)

antichrist

nqemt wrote: »

Its not him that ends up in court if someone dies because we dont have the relevant drugs or has to explain to a family why someone died or to face the wrath of a Paramedic or Advanced Paramedic from HSE/DFB.

As a paramedic in the HSE I find it offensive that you would refer to the "wrath" of myself or my collegues. The fact that you put it in that context clearly implies you have never had any real interaction with us. We carry our own drugs bags..if a pt needs a medication we head out on a call assuming we shall give it, if we hear a vol is there we don't go asking for their qualification and why they haven't given any meds...why...because we are too busy treating the patient.

You will never be in court having to answer for yourself if a patient dies due to a medication you have not been supplied not being administered. If your agency doesn't supply it then case closed. There are AP's in private companies practicing at Paramedic level as the company doesn't have the insurance to cover them for AP procedures. Such is life. Don't worry about it. Concentrate on what you can do for the pt with the limited resourses you have.

Tango Alpha 51

Ya beat me to it Antichrist. NQEMT as has been stated if your not happy with your organisations protocols, then write to your boss expressing your concerns. You do nothing for your organisation by publicly being so anti your group.

AG2R

Great post by Antichrist tbh but the irony of his name and then being a member of the HSE is comical!

simit

I'm an EMT in one of the voluntary groups and have no problem at all working along my organizations guidelines. I'm sure they have a good reason why we're not allowed administer or carry certain drugs even if we're quallified to do so by PHECC and it probably has a lot to do with the gung ho attitude that some EMTs seem to have towards using them. You do the best you can for your patient within the scope of your practice and within your organizations guidelines, anything you can't manage yourself then you request ALS, plaina and simple!

watsgone

OP- is your medical practice insurance under the vol group you work with. Then you must follow those guidelines.

First Aid Ireland

I think the question of why the EMT packs are only located in the ambulances is a reasonable one.

From years in the vols I would say that the presence of an ambulance is not always a great predictor of the likelihood of a bad emergency, though there's usually one present at larger events I guess. Having said that I've done low risk church fetes with an ambulance, and I've done the busiest duty of my life in a small music venue in dublin city centre years ago with no ambulance.

But I think it's a fair question to punt up the chain of command.

What are EMTs in the vols carrying in their packs? Most people can wait for the paramedics to give them their aspirin, though it makes sense to have easy access to IM adrenaline (assuming that's what's being carried for allergies?). Nebs would be useful too, obviously, but most people can keep going until paramedics arrive. While we have a duty of care to people when covering events, and we can get frustrated if we can't treat them as well as we'd like, people every day cope with their allergies and asthma attacks until an ambulance gets to them.

So, while the question asked in the OP is a fair one, don't get too stressed. Like somebody above said, the chances of you being in trouble for not giving meds that you don't have are pretty non existent, I'd imagine.

Kwekubo

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

What are EMTs in the vols carrying in their packs?

EMTs can administer oxygen, paracetamol, aspirin, salbutamol inhalers (not nebulised), adrenaline (autoinjectors, ie Epipen), Entonox, glucose gel, glucagon (IM) and GTN spray.

miju

not all vols will carry the above though

bikemedic

Keeping the drugs packs in the Ambulance in my opinion is a good idea. If your vol organisation has a number of non ambulance duties on the same day how would they decide who was to take the drugs bag?
Another reason it might have to be kept in the ambulance could be that the ambulance can be called up to assist in an emergency and ambulance needs to be ready to go.