Parkway Shopping Centre to be completed.

Berty

Yeah let's give the site away to the University instead. That would be NAMA/Tax Payers money very well spent.

No folks, let's finish the building that was started and put some damn people back to work, if even in the short term.

It is NOT our money and we have no say in the matter so let's make the best of it whilst the money is back in town for a while.

Mc Love

We should definetly make part of it into a leisure complex! A public swimming pool is badly needed! People in the area havent been able to wash their horses since Roxboro closed down

Kess73

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Should have been donated to UL for a new innovation/science complex ect.
Or converted into a public/private hospital to ease the pressure on the regional.
Opening a shoping centre would be a nail in the coffin of two or three smaller ones

Why should the site just be donated to UL? Ir they wanted it it was for sale up until the recent purchase of the land.

As for a private hospital going there, well we all say the joke of an attempt of a private hospital just off of the dock road, why waste even more money on another non attempt. No chance of a public hospital either given that the Regional has had wards closed to cut costs.


If the owner wants to build a shopping centre or whatever on it (PP permitting of course) then more power to him if it brings in new jobs. Three of the worst performing shopping centres at present are within the city limits so it is a bit rich of the city council to start crying about centres in the county doing damage when the only shopping centre that is actually in the county and doing good business is the Crescent shopping centre and that is 38 years there.

Maybe they are saying that in the past 38 years they have been unable to attract a major project on a similar scale into the city centre.


Now I agree that there are some waste of space projects (both commerical and housing) outside the city limits, it would be stupid to prevent any new out of town projects that look like they could be viable if there is nothing at all on the cards for the city anyway, bar the usual spoof talk about amazing city centre projects that come to nowt.

Kess73

Mc Love wrote: »

We should definetly make part of it into a leisure complex! A public swimming pool is badly needed! People in the area havent been able to wash their horses since Roxboro closed down

The original plans had an ice rink along with a leisure centre to go with the retail units and a food court.

tipptom

Jeez,all the money Liam Carroll put in to digging out the underground on that site alone,i dont think i have ever seen the car park next door even half full even during the boom.This guy seems to be a smart cookie,sold of the opeara site to irish eejits and then buys of a non nama bank for 30 incl next door with 3 mill a year and you can be sure danske is throwing in some nice sweetners on the build as well seeing as they say its a "collabaration" between them even though he owns it 100%.Its definetly a buyers market out there but i would say he is sh*tting himself in anticapation of the summonce from the mayor of Limerick to give him his expertise.

Henry Ford III

This guy must be nuts. Strikes me he paid an awful lot for an absolute pig of a site. It'll take huge money just to complete it. Even when/if he does there's no business to support it.

Any new tenants should think really carefully about leasing space. People are broke, and sales simply won't be strong enough to cover costs.

Retail space is already dirt cheap in Limerick. Why the need for any more?

Cookiemunster

Kess73 wrote: »

The Parkway SC, Jetland SC and the Coonagh SC both fall within the city limits if I am correct so they fall neatly under the banner of yet more retail areas doing awful business within the jurisdiction of the city council.

Parkway SC seems to be doing fine to me. Most of the units were occupied the last time I was out there. The Jetland was built in the county as was Coonagh. Both were inherited (and opposed) by the city. Both were pie in the sky Celtic Tiger projects which would probably still be empty if they were still in the county. How do you explain Castletry SC? Thats in the county and its doing far was worse than the Parkway.

Kess73 wrote: »

If a developer can build a retail park in the Parkway valley and he can get retailers to commit to taking units then I am all for the idea if there is nothing concrete happening in the city centre.

Would he be able to get major retailers to commit though? In that area you've already got Childers Road, Parkway retail park, Parkway SC, Eastway, Castletroy SC and most of the major brands are already there. Rates won't be an issue after the amalgamation so I can't see any of them moving.
I doubted the ability to fill this center when it was first mooted during the boom as there was already plenty of empty retail space in the area back then.

Kess73

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Parkway SC seems to be doing fine to me. Most of the units were occupied the last time I was out there. The Jetland was built in the county as was Coonagh. Both were inherited (and opposed) by the city. Both were pie in the sky Celtic Tiger projects which would probably still be empty if they were still in the county. How do you explain Castletry SC? Thats in the county and its doing far was worse than the Parkway.



Would he be able to get major retailers to commit though? In that area you've already got Childers Road, Parkway retail park, Parkway SC, Eastway, Castletroy SC and most of the major brands are already there. Rates won't be an issue after the amalgamation so I can't see any of them moving.
I doubted the ability to fill this center when it was first mooted during the boom as there was already plenty of empty retail space in the area back then.

For one thing the location is not a bad one if the range of shops is good. I did say in my earlier posts that I would be for it if a viable plan was in place, as in retailers putting pen to paper to commit to units.


If we follow the logic that brands won't move due to rates not being an issue, then there is no reason for any major brands to be even slightly interested in going to the city centre as well. Why would any major retailer want to go to a city centre that has a very poor set up in terms of loading areas for deliveries, that has loads and loads of dead units and quite a low footfall for a city centre?

I agree with you that there would be no point in building the Parkway Valley SC if it is built without having retailers lined up in advance, but if that is in place then I would be for it.


One thing that this particular developer has to his name is that the shopping centres and retail parks that he has built in both Ireland and the UK and then sold on have one thing in common. That one common factor is that all his completed SCs and Retail parks had full tenancy when he sold them on and it seems to be a pattern with him when it comes to completed projects. That is the main reason why he looks a good option in my eyes, and far better than the Irish developers who are looking to extend the Coonagh SC despite it having 16 out of 17 units empty or the Limerick developer who wants planning permission to build even more houses onto a development of his that is already full of empty houses.

If you look at many of the retail parks and shopping centres in Limerick that are half empty or worse, I reckon a google search or similar on most of them will show a few interesting patterns in terms of the nationality of the developers and the pattern of the same developers in building projects with no tenants lined up for their units.

diol07

It's all very well saying roll it out cos the region needs the jobs etc but the reality is that a shopping centre is the last thing that Limerick needs. It will be another white elephant. The Parkway/Castletroy area has already tried and failed twice to house prominent commercial shopping centres. The area has been a graveyard for many a business over the last number of years, even outside of those centres. This will be Coonagh MKII, only bigger.

The only shopping centre that is operating successfully in Limerick is the Crescent - and that's with half the retailers paying vastly reduced rents, something which the Crescent's owners have had to accept. Rents have dropped in the Crescent, yet there are still prime units empty and units closing on a regular basis. If you look at that, the City and all the other struggling shopping centres dotted around the doughnut, who exactly do ye expect will fill the Parkway Valley? Sure, the developer could probably offer attractive rents and clauses to prospective tenants, but the real question is where is the money going to come from to support these businesses? Can't see it myself, Limerick's population isn't big enough to support another 50 units or another shopping centre, the extra money or affluence to do so just ain't there. Even if it were to be a success, it would most certainly only take away from the City and Crescent anyway. It's pointless. Limerick is not Dublin or London, we're a tiny area and the Crescent and the City struggling tells it's own story that is obviously not being heeded to!

Amazotheamazing

diol07 wrote: »

It's all very well saying roll it out cos the region needs the jobs etc but the reality is that a shopping centre is the last thing that Limerick needs. It will be another white elephant. The Parkway/Castletroy area has already tried and failed twice to house prominent commercial shopping centres. The area has been a graveyard for many a business over the last number of years, even outside of those centres. This will be Coonagh MKII, only bigger.

The only shopping centre that is operating successfully in Limerick is the Crescent - and that's with half the retailers paying vastly reduced rents, something which the Crescent's owners have had to accept. Rents have dropped in the Crescent, yet there are still prime units empty and units closing on a regular basis. If you look at that, the City and all the other struggling shopping centres dotted around the doughnut, who exactly do ye expect will fill the Parkway Valley? Sure, the developer could probably offer attractive rents and clauses to prospective tenants, but the real question is where is the money going to come from to support these businesses? Can't see it myself, Limerick's population isn't big enough to support another 50 units or another shopping centre, the extra money or affluence to do so just ain't there. Even if it were to be a success, it would most certainly only take away from the City and Crescent anyway. It's pointless. Limerick is not Dublin or London, we're a tiny area and the Crescent and the City struggling tells it's own story that is obviously not being heeded to!

Exactly.

The future for the Midwest, not just Limerick city, imo, should be based around three things. 1) UL making it attractive for high-end jobs to be located here, 2) local industries becoming significant employers, 3) complete revitalisation of the tourist industry.

Construction and retail are not the answer. We've already built enough retail park on the outskirts of Limerick, half the ones on the dock road are empty. Coonagh Cross is empty, Superquinn is empty, Jetlands is empty.

Whatever work could be gotten from turning the Parkway valley into a shopping centre could equally be gotten from turning it into a research facility, a sports complex, whatever.

Some people are missing the big picture in their eagerness to have a cut off the Mayor. Limerick is already oversupplied with retail space, let's get imaginative and turn it into something the midwest needs.

Kess73

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Exactly.

The future for the Midwest, not just Limerick city, imo, should be based around three things. 1) UL making it attractive for high-end jobs to be located here, 2) local industries becoming significant employers, 3) complete revitalisation of the tourist industry.

Construction and retail are not the answer. We've already built enough retail park on the outskirts of Limerick, half the ones on the dock road are empty. Coonagh Cross is empty, Superquinn is empty, Jetlands is empty.

Whatever work could be gotten from turning the Parkway valley into a shopping centre could equally be gotten from turning it into a research facility, a sports complex, whatever.

Some people are missing the big picture in their eagerness to have a cut off the Mayor. Limerick is already oversupplied with retail space, let's get imaginative and turn it into something the midwest needs.

With over 23,000 people unemployed in Limerick, some 16,000 of those being within the City limits, high end jobs are not what is needed to make a dent in those figures.


A sports complex and ice rink were part of the original plans for the centre, it was never planned to be just a retail centre.

Berty

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Some people are missing the big picture in their eagerness to have a cut off the Mayor. Limerick is already oversupplied with retail space, let's get imaginative and turn it into something the midwest needs.

Fine, who's paying for your grand schemes of research facilities and/or a sports complex?

Amazotheamazing

Beer Baron wrote: »

Fine, who's paying for your grand schemes of research facilities and/or a sports complex?

UL, ideally.

Amazotheamazing

Kess73 wrote: »

With over 23,000 people unemployed in Limerick, some 16,000 of those being within the City limits, high end jobs are not what is needed to make a dent in those figures.


A sports complex and ice rink were part of the original plans for the centre, it was never planned to be just a retail centre.

Read my entire post, we need to restructure the midwest's economy. We do need some manufacturing, I'd prefer if it was from Irish businesses. However, the future for all Irish workers, not just those currently unemployed, is great education and better skills.

A few months building work and a few empty shop units is not going to change the region around.

Cookiemunster

Kess73 wrote: »

With over 23,000 people unemployed in Limerick, some 16,000 of those being within the City limits

This is something thats thrown about a lot that is actually incorrect. While 16,000 people do sign on in Cecil Street, that includes people from Castletroy, Raheen, Dooradoyle etc. as far out as Patrickswell. So while still bad, its 16,000 out of around 100,000 not 16,000 out of 56,000.

On checking Limerick City, Kildimo, Adare, Croom, Pallasgreen, Caherconlish, Castleconnell, Killaloe, O'Briensbridge, Clonlara, Sixmilebrdge, Meelick and Newport are the ares covered by Limerick City.

Berty

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

UL, ideally.

Right the price for the property is €30 million. I know UL is normally flush but I don't even they can get a bond for that amount.

I thought UL had 3 sports facilities, a Boat Club and another facility out on Lough Derg. Is that not enough?

http://www.ul.ie/ul-campus/sports/

Amazotheamazing

Beer Baron wrote: »

Right the price for the property is €30 million. I know UL is normally flush but I don't even they can get a bond for that amount.

I thought UL had 3 sports facilities, a Boat Club and another facility out on Lough Derg. Is that not enough?

http://www.ul.ie/ul-campus/sports/

The right price is whatever someone will pay for it. I personally think it's next to worthless as half the buildings will probably have to come down.

Berty

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

The right price is whatever someone will pay for it. I personally think it's next to worthless as half the buildings will probably have to come down.

That may be so(knocking of exposed concrete structures) but the value of the land it sits upon is quite valuable considering it comes with FULL planning permission it makes the land more than just some mud and grass, wouldn't you agree.

It would be kind of like you going into a car dealership and suggesting that you will only pay €1,000 for a €15,000 car because that is what you are willing to pay for it.

This building project is bigger than Limerick City/County Councillors, bigger than a few boardsies and bigger than anything NAMA could achieve. Let the big boys have their building, suffer the losses if it does not work out and let us get some work from it and hopefully some future retail space.

Amazotheamazing

Beer Baron wrote: »

That may be so(knocking of exposed concrete structures) but the value of the land it sits upon is quite valuable considering it comes with FULL planning permission it makes the land more than just some mud and grass, wouldn't you agree.

It would be kind of like you going into a car dealership and suggesting that you will only pay €1,000 for a €15,000 car because that is what you are willing to pay for it.

This building project is bigger than Limerick City/County Councillors, bigger than a few boardsies and bigger than anything NAMA could achieve. Let the big boys have their building, suffer the losses if it does not work out and let us get some work from it and hopefully some future retail space.

You're in dreamland if you think land prices are ever going back to where they were. Planning permission for retail units nobody needs. Just cause it was worth something a few years back doesn't mean it's still worth that today or will ever be worth it again.

It's myopic to think that building retail units will somehow turn back the clock, actually, it's worse than myopic, it's depressing. That era has passed. The only reason a project like the Opera centre still makes sense is because there's no similar centre in the city already. Anyone who wants to shop on the outskirts of Limerick city has already plenty of choice and plenty of decent roads to get from A to B. If there was demand, you wouldn't see as empty units around the place.

This project is in no way bigger than Limerick or bigger than NAMA, and frankly, it's borderline hysterical to say that it is. NAMA, ffs, holds assets nominally worth billions.

Berty

I don't know what post you read but it wasn't mine.

I SAID

but the value of the land it sits upon is quite valuable considering it comes with FULL planning permission it makes the land more than just some mud and grass, wouldn't you agree.

Land A - No Planning permission for Shopping Centre

Land B - Planning Permission for Shopping Centre

Look. The property was worth €100m and was sold by Nama for €30m. Nama are a simply liquidator and like all liquidators they sell stock below market value. The property could be still worth €60m but he got it for €30m.

You cannot assume that the Land is worthless because the boom times are over. Approved Planning Permission for a shopping centre is(I would assume) a hard thing to get(and quite costly) so if that is attached to the land then the Land IS worth more money.

That was my point. Dreamland......................sheesh. :rolleyes:

Amazotheamazing

Beer Baron wrote: »

I don't know what post you read but it wasn't mine.

I SAID

Land A - No Planning permission for Shopping Centre

Land B - Planning Permission for Shopping Centre

Look. The property was worth €100m and was sold by Nama for €30m. Nama are a simply liquidator and like all liquidators they sell stock below market value. The property could be still worth €60m but he got it for €30m.

You cannot assume that the Land is worthless because the boom times are over. Approved Planning Permission for a shopping centre is(I would assume) a hard thing to get(and quite costly) so if that is attached to the land then the Land IS worth more money.

That was my point. Dreamland......................sheesh. :rolleyes:

The land equally could be only worth 1 million. It might even be worth less than that.

Planning permission for something that isn't needed and is now out of date isn't the draw you seem to think it is.

Iamhere

Beer Baron wrote: »

I don't know what post you read but it wasn't mine.

I SAID

Land A - No Planning permission for Shopping Centre

Land B - Planning Permission for Shopping Centre

Look. The property was worth €100m and was sold by Nama for €30m. Nama are a simply liquidator and like all liquidators they sell stock below market value. The property could be still worth €60m but he got it for €30m.

You cannot assume that the Land is worthless because the boom times are over. Approved Planning Permission for a shopping centre is(I would assume) a hard thing to get(and quite costly) so if that is attached to the land then the Land IS worth more money.

That was my point. Dreamland......................sheesh. :rolleyes:

This site was not a Nama site, it was sold by NIB

phog

I've no idea what would be the best use of this site but I'm damn sure we do not need another retail unit even with leisure facilities attached.

The best thing I can see with completing it for it original purpose is that it would tidy up one of the main routes into the city, though once completed I think a white elephant will either appear here or in another retail centre near the city as it's obvious to everyone that we have enough retail property available at the moment. Hey, even before the collapse of the economy people were asking was this place really needed and would it suceed.

tfitzgerald

phog wrote: »

I've no idea what would be the best use of this site but I'm damn sure we do not need another retail unit even with leisure facilities attached.

The best thing I can see with completing it for it original purpose is that it would tidy up one of the main routes into the city, though once completed I think a white elephant will either appear here or in another retail centre near the city as it's obvious to everyone that we have enough retail property available at the moment. Hey, even before the collapse of the economy people were asking was this place really needed and would it suceed.

As well as this post I think it would be just another nail in the city centre's coffin

CiaranMT

I recall something from the Post article on this saying that the original planning permission has lapsed, or something along those lines.

Goofy

They will have to reaply for planning permission as it has lapsed.

Berty

Goofy wrote: »

They will have to reaply for planning permission as it has lapsed.

Yes but so long as they don't change the request I'm sure it would sail through.

Kess73

Beer Baron wrote: »

Yes but so long as they don't change the request I'm sure it would sail through.

Yep as those in charge of the yay or nay on the PP would have to have a quantifiable reason for refusing it the same PP as it had received before, and not just a vague "it would kill the city" comment with no actual facts or figures to back it up.


Plus the old PP had a cinema, an ice rink, a sports complex, restaurants as well as the retail side of things.


It's up to the city council/authorities to make the city a viable and attractive prospect for developers and more importantly companies who would set up shop there, something their track record suggests they are no good at for quite some time now.

Maybe they can go down the same route as they have done for years now. Just come out with pie in the sky projects that are always on the verge of happening.

The Opera Centre

The Sarfield street/O Connell street centre

The Coonagh shopping centre (something that was claimed to be the biggest shopping centre in Munster before work started on it, and the developer has been making noises again in recent times about wanting to extend it to almost double it's current size despiute it having 16 of it's 17 units empty. Funny how the city council are not posturing in public about things like that.)

The Condell road centre/business park/ residential area

The Jetland cinema

The Coonagh Cinema

And various other things that were always just on the verge of happening.


We all want to see something happen in the city, but nowt is being done. The city centre is dying at present and getting worse month on month, so sure we can see any project outside the city blocked but methinks the city centre will continue to fall further and further behind the likes of Galway and Cork city centres in terms of facilities regardless of what is or is not build in the outskirts of Limerick.

Berty

Maybe if he makes it into an Ikea. Apparently Dublin is the highest grossing Ikea in Europe so it goes to show us Irish love our tat.

Amazotheamazing

Kess73 wrote: »

Yep as those in charge of the yay or nay on the PP would have to have a quantifiable reason for refusing it the same PP as it had received before, and not just a vague "it would kill the city" comment with no actual facts or figures to back it up.


Plus the old PP had a cinema, an ice rink, a sports complex, restaurants as well as the retail side of things.


It's up to the city council/authorities to make the city a viable and attractive prospect for developers and more importantly companies who would set up shop there, something their track record suggests they are no good at for quite some time now.

Maybe they can go down the same route as they have done for years now. Just come out with pie in the sky projects that are always on the verge of happening.

The Opera Centre

The Sarfield street/O Connell street centre

The Coonagh shopping centre (something that was claimed to be the biggest shopping centre in Munster before work started on it, and the developer has been making noises again in recent times about wanting to extend it to almost double it's current size despiute it having 16 of it's 17 units empty. Funny how the city council are not posturing in public about things like that.)

The Condell road centre/business park/ residential area

The Jetland cinema

The Coonagh Cinema

And various other things that were always just on the verge of happening.


We all want to see something happen in the city, but nowt is being done. The city centre is dying at present and getting worse month on month, so sure we can see any project outside the city blocked but methinks the city centre will continue to fall further and further behind the likes of Galway and Cork city centres in terms of facilities regardless of what is or is not build in the outskirts of Limerick.

Coonagh Cross was originally in county Limerick.

Anyhow, is Ireland the only country in the world that is so backward a city could have so many estates not being run by the city? It seems to be an Irish problem, the same issues to some extent exist in Waterford and Cork.