Bike to Work scheme - the Megathread - Read post #1 before posting

murphyebass

lbj666 wrote: »

Guys does anyone know if there are plans to expand the btw scheme like raising the cap or removing altogether like in the UK to encourage less abled go for ebikes.

By right I'd say hold of unless there's improvements in infrastructure before encouraging a more bikes on the road, but selfish me is looking for new toy(s)

I did a tax course at the tail end of last year before covid etc kicked off.

At that point the lecturer was saying it’d be one of the next schemes to be pulled as most people who used it weren’t using it for actually cycling to work, ie what it was originally intended for so in essence had little to no impact on public transport or car congestion at all.

That said with covid I’d say it’ll be extended if anything as the government will want to get people doing anything other than public transport.

And we have a hint of green in our new government too which will also help the cause.

magicbastarder

byrnem31 wrote: »

snip

It use to be €5k limit I think and people were getting ride on lawn mowers out of it and selling them on for profit.

mod note - we don't allow people to suggest tax fraud is OK, and the notion that there used to be a 5k limit for the BTW is laughable.

for the record, unless someone can come up with documentary, official proof, buying anything other than a bike, and only one bike, on a BTW transaction is tax fraud and we don't allow people to discuss tax fraud on the forum

loyatemu

lbj666 wrote: »

Guys does anyone know if there are plans to expand the btw scheme like raising the cap or removing altogether like in the UK to encourage less abled go for ebikes.

By right I'd say hold of unless there's improvements in infrastructure before encouraging a more bikes on the road, but selfish me is looking for new toy(s)

I'd say it's likely there will be changes to the scheme with Eamonn now minister for transport, but nobody knows for sure.

magicbastarder

murphyebass wrote: »

At that point the lecturer was saying it’d be one of the next schemes to be pulled as most people who used it weren’t using it for actually cycling to work, ie what it was originally intended for so in essence had little to no impact on public transport or car congestion at all.

it'd be kinda ironic if they did yank it for this reason while still handing out €5k grants for electric cars.

caviardreams

There was some talk of it being replaced by removing the VAT from bikes so everyone would benefit - would make sense in many ways.

CramCycle

murphyebass wrote: »

I did a tax course at the tail end of last year before covid etc kicked off.

At that point the lecturer was saying it’d be one of the next schemes to be pulled as most people who used it weren’t using it for actually cycling to work, ie what it was originally intended for so in essence had little to no impact on public transport or car congestion at all.

That said with covid I’d say it’ll be extended if anything as the government will want to get people doing anything other than public transport.

And we have a hint of green in our new government too which will also help the cause.

I think your lecturer was wildly incorrect. A scheme that requires little oversight, has apparent high compliance levels, and has little or no cost to the state in the grand scheme of things (most likely a net contributor)

caviardreams wrote: »

There was some talk of it being replaced by removing the VAT from bikes so everyone would benefit - would make sense in many ways.

This would have less uptake, one of the major benefits was the ability in many cases to pay off over 12 months, essentially an interest free loan, which is a huge benefit to low income workers. Yes high income workers benefit more but sometimes you have to accept that occasionally a scheme doesn't have to be equitable to be good. It is preferential but making bikes VAT free would actually favour high income earners who can afford to buy outright, pay more and artiically inflate cheaper bike prices to a level that manufacturer think they will get away with, to the point where bikes here will be just under 20% more so they are only marginally cheaper than online retailers from other countries.

murphyebass

CramCycle wrote: »

I think your lecturer was wildly incorrect. A scheme that requires little oversight, has apparent high compliance levels, and has little or no cost to the state in the grand scheme of things (most likely a net contributor)

This would have less uptake, one of the major benefits was the ability in many cases to pay off over 12 months, essentially an interest free loan, which is a huge benefit to low income workers. Yes high income workers benefit more but sometimes you have to accept that occasionally a scheme doesn't have to be equitable to be good. It is preferential but making bikes VAT free would actually favour high income earners who can afford to buy outright, pay more and artiically inflate cheaper bike prices to a level that manufacturer think they will get away with, to the point where bikes here will be just under 20% more so they are only marginally cheaper than online retailers from other countries.

Considering how close he is to the government and any tax problem/solution being discussed I’d be very surprised if he was speaking out of turn.

That said we’ll never know now. It’s far more likely to stay now due to the covid situation.

People might actually start using their bikes to cycle to work. The first bike I bought was for mountain biking. No way I’d be cycling that yolk to work.

I just bought a new CX bike on it a few weeks ago and have already done a spin in to my workplace to see how it would work.

If there was no covid I’d get public transport but there’s not a hole in hell of me going anywhere near a bus when I have to go back to the office. Just askin for trouble so cycling it is.

grogi

magicbastarder wrote: »

it'd be kinda ironic if they did yank it for this reason while still handing out €5k grants for electric cars.

Why?

The BtW scheme is not getting people cycling to work. Who wanted to cycle, cycles regardless. Who doesn't want to, wouldn't start just because they got a bike.

€5k for electric cars does push people to get the electric cars. And they use them instead of fossil cars. That's exactly what the grant is aiming for.

MJohnston

grogi wrote: »

Why?

The BtW scheme is not getting people cycling to work. Who wanted to cycle, cycles regardless. Who doesn't want to, wouldn't start just because they got a bike.

€5k for electric cars does push people to get the electric cars. And they use them instead of fossil cars. That's exactly what the grant is aiming for.

That may have been true back when it was all manual cycles, although even then I'd doubt it, but we're in a world of e-Bikes now, and that massively expands the potential usage market.

magicbastarder

grogi wrote: »

Why?

The BtW scheme is not getting people cycling to work. Who wanted to cycle, cycles regardless. Who doesn't want to, wouldn't start just because they got a bike.

€5k for electric cars does push people to get the electric cars. And they use them instead of fossil cars. That's exactly what the grant is aiming for.

because if they're trying to push people to a low carbon future or reduce congestion, you can't even begin to compare a bike with an e-car.
and e-cars primarily run on fossil fuels.

i would hazard that the vast majority of salaried people who are cycling to work are cycling to work on bikes bought on the scheme. i would also assume that the majority of bikes bought on the scheme. but it's a max of ~€100 foregone per person (who avails of the BTW scheme) per year. it'd be weird if they got rid of it.

grogi

magicbastarder wrote: »

i would hazard that the vast majority of salaried people who are cycling to work are cycling to work on bikes bought on the scheme. i would also assume that the majority of bikes bought on the scheme. but it's a max of ~€100 foregone per person (who avails of the BTW scheme) per year. it'd be weird if they got rid of it.

Yes, they do. But they would cycle regardless if the scheme is in place or not. So the scheme is not effective at encouraging people to cycle to work.

With e-bikes that's a completely different story. E-bikes are much more attractive for Joe Average than regular bikes, because they require much less effort. You can arrive at the office and can start working immediately. Unfortunately the scheme does not work well enough here as well - eBikes are much more expensive and the benefit is too small.

tomasrojo

grogi wrote: »

Yes, they do. But they would cycle regardless if the scheme is in place or not. So the scheme is not effective at encouraging people to cycle to work.

It's quite hard to tease out because it's a multi-factorial phenomenon, but the numbers of people cycling to work in Dublin went up very steeply after the introduction of the c2w scheme.

grogi wrote: »

With e-bikes that's a completely different story. E-bikes are much more attractive for Joe Average than regular bikes, because they require much less effort. You can arrive at the office and can start working immediately. Unfortunately the scheme does not work well enough here as well - eBikes are much more expensive and the benefit is too small.

You can arrive at work and start work almost immediately after cycling on a standard bike as well, but it depends on the distance and how hard you cycle.

The programme for government has a section on electric bikes, but I don't know exactly what has been proposed.

EDIT: I don't have time to go looking in detail, but An Taisce welcomes the "promised financial support for e-bikes and cargo bikes".

Morf3h

If I'm a company Director (it's my own company and I pay myself a salary) and want to buy a 2 or 3-grand bike from online retailer Bike24 (based in Germany) can I avail of any benefit under BTW?

iwillhtfu

Morf3h wrote: »

If I'm a company Director (it's my own company and I pay myself a salary) and want to buy a 2 or 3-grand bike from online retailer Bike24 (based in Germany) can I avail of any benefit under BTW?

I'd imagine your accountant would be the best man to ask. Either way the scheme is limited to €1000 so you'll only see the saving for thag amount. You can add the additional €1-2k no problem but there'll be no saving on it.

Seth Brundle

Company directors can avail of the C2W scheme: https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/what-constitutes-pay/items-not-treated-as-pay/provision-of-bicycles-for-directors-and-employees.aspx
According to Revenue, the bike shop needs to be on an official suppliers list (and I don't see bike24.de): https://ogp.gov.ie/cycle-to-work-scheme/

magicbastarder

that list is specific to the civil and public service, for staff there availaing of it. there is no limitation on where you can buy a bike legally.

sbs2010

As per MB

Seth Brundle wrote: »

According to Revenue, the bike shop needs to be on an official suppliers list (and I don't see bike24.de): https://ogp.gov.ie/cycle-to-work-scheme/

Don't think that's right. That link says civil or public service employers are restricted to that list of suppliers.

Private companies aren't restricted to specific suppliers. From Revenue.ie :

There is a limit of €1,000 per bicycle purchased. The purchase can be made in any cycle shop. If you are a civil or public servant, the cycle shop must be on the suppliers list.

doxy79

I imagine this has been asked plenty before, but I can't find anything on search.

Unless I'm not understanding the scheme correctly, it seems that the people who could use the help most of all (low paid workers) get the smallest discount? Seems a bit dysfunctional. I wonder if the greens will address this somehow if the scheme gets a revamp?

CramCycle

doxy79 wrote: »

I imagine this has been asked plenty before, but I can't find anything on search.

Unless I'm not understanding the scheme correctly, it seems that the people who could use the help most of all (low paid workers) get the smallest discount? Seems a bit dysfunctional. I wonder if the greens will address this somehow if the scheme gets a revamp?

True it is not equitable but there are other huge advantages and sometimes you have to accept the good with the bad if on balance one outweighs the other. There is for most low paid workers some saving, even if it appears minimal. The ability to pay an interest free loan off over 12 months, that doesn't require bank or credit approval is another one. Yes the benefits are greater to higher earners but it does top out very quickly into the higher tax bracket brand so its not exponential.

I really do think that any attempts to make it more equitable will have other unintended consequences. At the minute, the scheme is a zero cost scheme for tax inspectors and over a few years actually contributes to the economy. Any attempt to balance it out further will undoubtedly lead to increase in admin and inspection costs that make it an easier one to scrap if the belts get tight at government level, even though it would still be a stupid move.

CramCycle

grogi wrote: »

Yes, they do. But they would cycle regardless if the scheme is in place or not. So the scheme is not effective at encouraging people to cycle to work.

True in some cases (I would have cycled anyway) but I do know people who did not cycle to work before the scheme and do now. There are also those who took up cycling at the weekends, so while they might not regularly commute, there are unintended benefits to the scheme.

byrnem31

CramCycle wrote: »

True in some cases (I would have cycled anyway) but I do know people who did not cycle to work before the scheme and do now. There are also those who took up cycling at the weekends, so while they might not regularly commute, there are unintended benefits to the scheme.

It got me back into cycling. I got a bike on the scheme 2 years ago and caught the bug. I've upgraded since.

I cycle to work nearly every day now. I was even cycling in the rain yesterday. It would take me 45 mins to get to work in a car in normal circumstances. I do it in 25 mins on a bike. And I'm keeping very fit, 50 min blast at a hard place in and out followed by a long cycle on the weekend. Ain't no feeling like it.

tomasrojo

CramCycle wrote: »

True it is not equitable but there are other huge advantages and sometimes you have to accept the good with the bad if on balance one outweighs the other. There is for most low paid workers some saving, even if it appears minimal. The ability to pay an interest free loan off over 12 months, that doesn't require bank or credit approval is another one. Yes the benefits are greater to higher earners but it does top out very quickly into the higher tax bracket brand so its not exponential.

I really do think that any attempts to make it more equitable will have other unintended consequences. At the minute, the scheme is a zero cost scheme for tax inspectors and over a few years actually contributes to the economy. Any attempt to balance it out further will undoubtedly lead to increase in admin and inspection costs that make it an easier one to scrap if the belts get tight at government level, even though it would still be a stupid move.

I think the amount of unclaimed tax reliefs is ample testimony to the gatekeeper effect of having to fill out more forms and look for more documentation:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/tax-reliefs-going-unclaimed-1.915769

(I know that's old, but I don't have time to chase up something more recent. I think the principle hasn't changed that much.)

Eamonnator

byrnem31 wrote: »

It got me back into cycling. I got a bike on the scheme 2 years ago and caught the bug. I've upgraded since.

I cycle to work nearly every day now. I was even cycling in the rain yesterday. It would take me 45 mins to get to work in a car in normal circumstances. I do it in 25 mins on a bike. And I'm keeping very fit, 50 min blast at a hard place in and out followed by a long cycle on the weekend. Ain't no feeling like it.

Perfect example.
No losses, multiple gains.

magicbastarder

yep, as mentioned, the max cost to the taxman is €100 p.a. for someone who takes up the offer.

the benefit to the public purse of someone using it to get fit or stay fit would be an interesting thing to try to calculate.

gazzaman22

Hi all

Thinking of going for the B2W Scheme, over 12 months, My understanding of all is i get a bike for for approx €690 or so if i spend 1000.

Has anyone a recommended retailer, that will provide a good bike and all accessorys for €1000 handy?

Can this be bought say from the UK?

magicbastarder

who you can buy from depends on your employer, you'd need to ask them first.
there's no legal or regulatory limit on who you can buy from, but as your employer will actually be buying the bike, they may limit the shops they deal with.

if you're new enough to cycling, i'd suggest buying local, which would make dealing with any issues you might face, easier to deal with.

loyatemu

gazzaman22 wrote: »

My understanding of all is i get a bike for for approx €690 or so if i spend 1000.

if you're paying top rate tax, it's more like a 51% discount.

TheMilkyPirate

I remember there was talk of it being changed so that you could avail of it once every two years. Has there been anymore on that?

magicbastarder

i think that was wishful thinking more than actual talk.

gazzaman22

magicbastarder wrote: »

who you can buy from depends on your employer, you'd need to ask them first.
there's no legal or regulatory limit on who you can buy from, but as your employer will actually be buying the bike, they may limit the shops they deal with.

if you're new enough to cycling, i'd suggest buying local, which would make dealing with any issues you might face, easier to deal with.

Just got clarification from work, -
You choose your own supplier who operates the ‘Bike to Work Scheme’ (most bike retailers do) and it needs to be in Southern Ireland.