Muzzle loading pistols

rowa

If irish shooters are allowed at some stage in the future to hold loose powder and primers/caps for the purposes of reloading , would we also be able to licence and use muzzle loading pistols and revolvers or are they specifically banned along with the rest of the pistols under aherns ban ?

Cass

Well a muzzle loader is a single shot meaning it doesn;t break the "max 5 rounds" condition so that makes it unrestricted. However anything over .22 caliber is deemed restricted so that makes it restricted again, and with no licenses being issued for restricted shortarms it could possibly mean they would be unlicenseable.

Also as the only "valid reason" for having a pistol is target shooting and most of those are done with revolvers or semiauto pistols then the muzzle loader would not be able to take part, and would need its own discipline to be viewed as a sprt and to get the license. Meaning you would need multiple licensees.


Its a bit of a head scratcher.

rowa

Well a muzzle loader doesn't have to be a single shot as ruger and a lot of italian makers make cap and ball revolvers which are obviously 6 shot, can they be classed as centrefire ?

Even in the uk after the kneejerk reaction to dunblane where even single shot .22lr pistols were deemed too dangerous to be in civilian hands , muzzle loading pistols and revolvers were exempted from the ban.

Cass

Its an interesting question.

In terms of rifles they are characterised by their caliber. In pistols it seems its either rimfire or centrefire. Must check and actually see if there is a definition other than C/F because for muzzle loaders that makes no difference.

Croppy Boy

You'd still be stuck with the question of black powder. You may hold on and see what comes in the new Explosive Act.

Sparks

As the law currently stands, the answer would be no - even if the new Explosives Act allows you to obtain the powder and so forth, the Restricted Firearms SI only allows licencing of .177 calibre air pistols (.22 air pistols can't be licenced, oddly enough), and .22lr pistols - and it's quite specific:

(ii) single shot firearms using 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire
percussion ammunition;
(iii) other firearms using 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire percussion ammunition provided that the maximum magazine capacity of such a firearm does not exceed five
rounds and that the barrel length of the firearm is
greater than 10 cm.

All hope's not lost though - we'd need a new SI to allow for muzzleloaders, but that's not an impossible ask. It wouldn't even need to go through the Dail, just the Minister.

Cass

I'd say the key words in that paragraph are "Rimfire percussion ammunition".

Anything other than that will not be licensed.

rowa

Doesn't the law allow for the ownership of original muzzle loaders off ticket ? Not modern reproductions i know.

Sparks

True, section 26 of the 1925 Act was never modified:

26.—(1) Nothing in this Act relating to firearms shall apply to any antique firearm which is sold, bought, carried, or possessed as a curiosity or ornament.

Unfortunately, (a) it never defined what an antique was, and (b) it doesn't say you can use one, just possess it...
Basicly, when you get to antique firearms, it's all utterly undefined and down to whomever you're talking to. Some people say it's an antique if it predates modern ammunition (ie. seperate charge and bullet), some if it predates a set data (I've heard 1860-odd mentioned before on here), and then there's the question of what to do with modern replicas of antique designs. I've never seen any law anywhere that definitively says what you can do with what when it comes to antique firearms.

tac foley

What a shame that so many totally artificial obstructions have been put in the way of ownership and shootership of muzzle-loading firearms. I assume that the same applies to rifles and muskets?

Actually, thinking about it, there are no obstructions per se, as firearms of this kind don't seem to fit into any category in law, which is very odd, to say the least - so in law they do not exist...

It remains a mystery as to why a type of firearm - long obsolete - cannot be recognised for what it is - a gun that is fun to shoot and competitive within its very own set of rules. Everywhere I can think of has its associations for the many diferent disciplines of black powder shooter that exist, from muzzle-loaders to single-shot cartridge shooters. There is even room for such firearms - if permission to own and shoot them ever happens - under the aegis of Ireland's own classic rifle association, the VCRAI. There are literally hundreds of different types of formerly martial or Volunteer firearms - flintlock, percussion and cartridge-shooting, that can be correctly described as classic arms.

Since there is currently no legislation covering this type of firearm in its entirety, it would need the whole shenanigins writing from point zero, but the worst thing imaginable would be to take the wacky UK stance with regard to original and replicas, antiques and modern.

In UK, as with most things to do with shooting, the laws are almost as incomprehensible. I can own a thousand genuine original and shootable antique percussion revolvers, single shot pistols, rifles and muskets without any form of licence, but if I want to shoot any of them, I have to have it licensed. In any case, a modern replica of any of them is classed as a Section 1 firearm, just like any modern high-powered rifle. so I can freely hang a genuine Springfield musket on my wall, but cannot do the same thing with a modern Pedesoli replica. That makes about as much sense as ignoring their very existence, which is what your legislature appears to be doing.

And BTW, it is not necessary to use real BP for most old-style guns [except flintlocks] - there are at least five makes of BP substitute propellant that do not require a licence to acquire and possess - this stuff makes excellent loose loads or cartridge loads, depending on the type of gun you have.

As an aside, with the Midlands now having a 1200 yard range, the possibility of shooting long-range target muzzle-loading rifles, exactly like those shot in the original Creedmore competitions, offers a great chance for the muzzle-loading community to shoot somewhere else other than Bisley's Stickledown Range.

Think of the benefits of holding the muzzle-loading world championships in Ireland! Now THAT would be something to look forward to.

To that I'd add that ANY range where centre-fire ammunition is sent from one end to the other under the current safety rules is suitable for use by BP arms of all kinds - I simply highlighted the Midlands range as it is the only one in Ireland that has the longest range - 1200 yards - shot by competitive black powder target rifle shooters.

Just sayin'...


tac
.44 Ruger Old Army
.44 Colt Walker
.451 Whitworth rifle
.58 Musketoon

Croppy Boy

Over here you can keep antique firearms without a licence so long as you do not use it. All you need is a letter of authorisation from your local Super. Under the old Act an antique was deemed to be made before 1845 but I though this was changed to any antique muzzleloader in the last Act.

If you intend shooting it, you need to licence it as any other gun. If you buy a reproduction gun from the likes of Pedersoli, it's assumed you intend to shoot it, the same as buying a modern rifle and telling the FO I'm not going to shoot it, I'm hanging it over the mantle piece. You'll still be required to licence it.

If you want a wall hanger, there's plenty of non firing replicas and de commissioned guns out there.

Hibrion

There is the hope that good old Ireland will follow the example of Britain as we seem to do with so much. I have to say that having a muzzleloading revolver would be a nice consolation prize for this whole no pistols business.
It would certainly be an interesting discipline to start up.

Grizzly 45

FWIW
A little bird told me,who would be 100% up on these things in an offical capacity,that YES BP is available to liscense here in the ROI under a C or E20[?]form.And that there are a couple of folks that quite happily shoot and reenact with BP here. You will need a powder magazine to current specs however and very good reason to use.IOW somthing along the line of serious reenactment,collector of genuine antique BP firearms,not to mind a liscense for the gun if it is repro.

Also,on reloading...We are being looked on favourably sofar.Creedmore /Midlands really impressed alot of the right people.It is coming slowly down the line,maybe another 1to2 years all going right.:D
Slight fly in the ointment is there will be restrictions on where you do it
If you live in a apartment block or row of houses in an estate,its not going to happen for you.:(

Hibrion

You really have me curious now, Grizzly. I wonder if I could swing a license for one on the grounds of being a military historian?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Slight fly in the ointment is there will be restrictions on where you do it
If you live in a apartment block or row of houses in an estate,its not going to happen for you.:(

Says whom?

tac foley

Hibrion wrote: »

There is the hope that good old Ireland will follow the example of Britain as we seem to do with so much. I have to say that having a muzzleloading revolver would be a nice consolation prize for this whole no pistols business.
It would certainly be an interesting discipline to start up.

It would make a lot more sense if Ireland followed the example set by much of the the rest of the world, in which loose-loading black powder firearms, period, do not need a license of any kind.

tac

Hibrion

I agree, tac. But there is practically no chance of that happening.

tac foley

Croppy Boy writes....Over here you can keep antique firearms without a licence so long as you do not use it.

Same here.

All you need is a letter of authorisation from your local Super.

In most countries you don't need permission from anybody to buy an antique. Only in the UK do you need a license to shoot one.

Under the old Act an antique was deemed to be made before 1845 but I though this was changed to any antique muzzleloader in the last Act.

No comment.

If you intend shooting it, you need to licence it as any other gun.

Same here.

If you buy a reproduction gun from the likes of Pedersoli, it's assumed you intend to shoot it, the same as buying a modern rifle and telling the FO I'm not going to shoot it, I'm hanging it over the mantle piece. You'll still be required to licence it.

Same here. Except that here, as with any firearm, you have to have the license first. AND be a member of a gun club where that kind of firearm is used.

If you want a wall hanger, there's plenty of non firing replicas and de commissioned guns out there.

True.

tac

tac foley

Hibrion wrote: »

I agree, tac. But there is practically no chance of that happening.

Never give up hope.

tac

rowa

Maybe common sense will prevail for once and muzzle loaders original or reproduction will be allowed, after all they are very slow to load and underpowered compared to modern centrefire pistols, the only thing is they are of large calibre and as we know to the doj calibre equals power. I would certainly be interested in shooting muzzle loaders.

Grizzly 45

Hibrion wrote: »

You really have me curious now, Grizzly. I wonder if I could swing a license for one on the grounds of being a military historian?

Well,if a lad who reenacts the battle of the Boyne can get one for his cannon..And you can prove you have good reason,a military historian with a specific collection of a certain era...Why not fire off a letter to the DOJ and see what their take would be on it?All they can say is Yes or No.:pac:

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Maybe common sense will prevail for once and muzzle loaders original or reproduction will be allowed, after all they are very slow to load and underpowered compared to modern centrefire pistols, the only thing is they are of large calibre and as we know to the doj calibre equals power. I would certainly be interested in shooting muzzle loaders.

Germany,if it is a single shot pistol,rifle or shotgun.You can buy it over the counter,no liscense required.But unless you have the BP permit,it is as useable as a very awkward club.

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

Maybe common sense will prevail for once and muzzle loaders original or reproduction will be allowed, after all they are very slow to load and underpowered compared to modern centrefire pistols, the only thing is they are of large calibre and as we know to the doj calibre equals power. I would certainly be interested in shooting muzzle loaders.

As a matter of interest -

Example 1 - .44cal BP revolver - 144gr ball/900fps = 259 ft lbs m/e

Example 2 - 45-70 Govt Sharps - 300gr bullet/1200 fps = 959 ft lbs m/e

Example 3 - 45-70Govt Sharps - 405gr bullet/1250 fps = 1405 ft lbs m/e

Example 4 - .308Win - 168gr bullet/2750 fps = 2820 ft lbs m/e

Here, do the math yourself - http://www.reloadammo.com/footpound2.htm

tac