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3 camera CCTV

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    #32
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I am baffled..
    So 25 fps is in no way better than 12fps?
    Is that your conclusion?


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    #33
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    The point is that, in reality, real time recording offers little more than 12 FPS. If it is a case of choosing a DVR that has real time recording over one with 12 FPS and both had exactly the same spec and price I'd choose the real time. But to recommend to anyone looking for a CCTV recommendation that realtime is essential is wrong.

    It's a bit of a red-herring.


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    #34
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    My point exactly Fred.


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    #35
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    KoolKid wrote: »
    I am baffled..
    So 25 fps is in no way better than 12fps?
    Is that your conclusion?
    I have provided the references to back up my point that 12fps is more than enough.
    As already stated detection rates to not increase once you go over this threshold.
    Can you provide any references to prove that there is anything to be gained by using a higher frame rate, apart from expense.
    As fred pointed out telling a customer they need real time is wrong


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    #36
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I would say 25fps is better than 12.
    Whether its required in certain applications is not the issue.
    Costing more is not the issue.
    If 12fps is as good as it gets , why are there higher spec machines?
    Are the manufacturers having us all on so?

    Jnealon wrote: »
    Detection levels do not increase once you go over 12fps, various studies have proved this.
    So there is absolutly no difference ??
    Jnealon wrote: »
    we are talking about the difference between taking a photo every .04 seconds compared to .08 seconds.
    Unless the application is forensic in nature 12fps is more than enough
    So there is a dufference?
    Jnealon wrote: »
    Which would be that 1% that Fred referred to
    So there is a difference?
    Jnealon wrote: »
    I would define better as an increased detection rate. Detection rates have been proven to increase up to a rate of 8fps where they start to level off. Once they reach 12fps detection rates remain static and do not increase.
    So theres no difference?
    Jnealon wrote: »
    As already stated detection rates to not increase once you go over this threshold.
    So theres no difference
    Jnealon wrote: »
    As fred pointed out telling a customer they need real time is wrong
    Telling a customer they need anything they don't is wrong.
    Recommending higher specs & explaining the difference is the right thing to do.
    Telling a customer there is absolutly no difference between a lower spec & a higher spec device would also be wrong.

    Anyway, With all the contridiction above my head hurts.
    One question.. A simple yes or no would be nice.
    Regardless of price & regardless of what is enough requirement. Does 25fps offer any improvement over 12fps?


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    #37
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    Your head hurts.
    I've posted references, links to papers etc etc.
    I've had this discussion with other trade groups and working groups I am involved with and we all agree that 12fps is more than enough, so you seem to be in the minority
    All you have to back up your claim with is your opinion. no facts.
    As I said to you earlier in this post we'll have to agree to disagree


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    #38
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Your still not answering the question.I wonder why that is?
    Regardless of what is considered enough.
    Is 25fps better than 12fps?
    I have answered yes.
    Why can you not answer a simple yes or no.


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    #39
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    Jnealon wrote: »
    Define better, is it increased detection, in that case no it's not better.
    Posted earlier


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    #40
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Still dodging the questions ???
    KoolKid wrote: »
    If 12fps is as good as it gets , why are there higher spec machines?
    Are the manufacturers having us all on so?
    KoolKid wrote: »
    A simple yes or no would be nice.
    Regardless of price & regardless of what is enough requirement. Does 25fps offer any improvement over 12fps?

    No mention of the word better in those questions.
    Jnealon wrote: »
    we all agree that 12fps is more than enough, so you seem to be in the minority.
    Are you actually reading the posts here?? I have already said what's enough is not the issue. Its whether 25fps offers more than 12fps .
    Myself , fred & altor have already said it does, so it would appear you are in the minority here.


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    #41
    Jnealon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Jnealon


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Also look for frame rate of at least 100 FPS (Frames per second) to will give you real time recording on 4 cameras.
    Jnealon wrote: »
    Why would you want real-time recording, it offers no additional benefit
    6 or 7 fps would be an absolute minimum with 12 fps being optimum.


    My point is stated above within the first few posts of this thread in response to your statement. I have posted references, links etc to prove my point.
    Here is a comparison frame rates to back up my statement LINK


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    #42
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Maybe my eyesight is just too good. But I can see a difference between 15 & 30 fps.
    Why are you still not answering the questions??

    Is there any benefit , whatsoever (Regardless of cost or whether its needed) of 25fps over 12 fps?

    Yes or No...
    I am confused by your references, links to papers etc etc. Yet you don't seem to believe them enough to answer a simple yes or no..:confused:


    If you are saying no, which you seem to be, then why are manufacturers making higher spec units of 25fps or higher?
    Have all manufacturers got it wrong ? or are they just ripping us off so?


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    #43
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    I think it depends on the application. 12 FPS is actually quite a high frame rate and if it was being used to capture peoples faces walking along a corridor then 25 FPS wouldn't make any difference hence, not being better.

    Now, if 25 FPS was being used to capture a registration plate along a road where cars are likely to drive past the camera quite quickly then one could argue that the higher frame rate would be better.

    There isn't a yes or no catch all answer.


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    #44
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    But my question all along is. regardless of whether its needed, is does 25fps offer benefits over 12 fps.?
    jnealon is suggesting 12fps is as good as it gets. Higher frame rates are better IMO .They have to be you are capturing twice the images.This standards may not always be required,but thats not in dispute. The only question is whether 25fps offers any benefit over 12 .? If I am wrong , and there is no benefit whatsoever why are higher spec machines made. ?

    Ill give an example .. We were recently looking at images from a PiPs system in Enniskerry to ge a car reg. These are recording at 25fps. The reg was only available on 1 frame. At 12fps catching this reg would have been 50/50 , its basic maths from that point of view.


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    #45
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    Jnealon wrote: »
    Not my opinion, it's widely stated in reports, white papers and books on the subject of cctv. One book is from Axis, probably the leaders in IPCCTV. There's also the Home Office policy in the UK. I can go on but what's the point

    The studies state that detection rates increase when frame rate increases but once you reach 8fps it starts to plateau and when you reach 12 fps it flattens out
    Source here
    It's also stated in many books

    I can loan you some of these reports and books if you like or post up isbn numbers and you can ask the library to get them for you

    I have had a good read of the thesis you linked to. To save everyone else the need to read this as it is very long I have found this link, which is a breakdown of his results found.

    I dont think there is anything to back up 25FPS is better than 12FPS. He made a lot of references to using low quality equipment, untrained users. A video recorder was also used in his tests :confused:

    5.4 Recommendations for CCTV owners Explains it all for owners of systems.

    At the end of the day it is down to the equipment installed. Cheaper equipment will not give the same results as better quality units.

    www.altor.ie



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    #46
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭altor


    fred funk }{ wrote: »
    12 FPS is more than enough for 99% of installations. Anything else is over-kill or over-selling, whichever way you want to look at it.

    Which do you think is better Fred, 12 or 25 ?

    It is not over selling if the DVR installed can perform these tasks, do you not agree ?

    www.altor.ie



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    #47
    fred funk }{
    Registered Users Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    altor wrote: »
    Which do you think is better Fred, 12 or 25 ?

    It is not over selling if the DVR installed can perform these tasks, do you not agree ?

    I expressed my opinion earlier in the thread. As I said earlier the whole 'real time' thing is a red herring. It reminds me of the obsession with the Megapixels of digital still cameras.


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