BAMMA v Cage Contenders ??

HellsAngel

Now I know their's a BAMMA7 thread, but probably like most of the other lads I stumbeld on BAMMA7 last night channel hopping ( MMA on the science fiction channel ??? )

Now I am just an MMA fan, done TKD and BJJ and watch from the safety of the ringside or armchair !!!! I am not having a go at British amateur fighters ( and not so amateur fighters such as Paul Daley, Andre Winner), these guys would whoop anyone's ass and train 10+ times a week. But to be honest in comparision to what I have in Cage Contenders, it looked pretty sh!tty at times, for example the BAMMA middleweight championship fight of Jack Marshman vs Carl Noon was to quote some of the lads from the BAMMA7 thread "this is like 2 very drunk men outside a pub on pearse street.......that was gas, he looks like hes just stumbled out of the pub "

Now when comparing Irish MMA to British MMA we have to factor in that Britain has a population of about 60 million :eek: to Ireland of about 6 million, so obviously Britain is going to have the advantage. But how does Cage Cont. compare to BAMMA ( and I'm not talking about John Ferguson's excellent organisational abilities which couldn't be better)

What analogy would you compare it to ? In lets say, soccer terms, it's certainly not the IFA and FAI versus the English Premiership. Would
club rugby terms be more nearer, Leinster, Munster, Ulster would be up to anything the teams from England could throw at us ?

Or for those of you fellas who know your stuff, what anaology or marks out of 10 or whatever would you compare the fighters in general, in Cage Contenders to BAMMA ?

HellsAngel

Just a thought, as one of the lads on the BAMMA7 thread states regading the British middle weight title "Chris Fields would have eaten both of those guys alive. " - and I agree.

So who would maybe like to see a Cage Contenders v the auld enemy card (BAMMA) card :eek: ??

Richy06

I couldn't believe how bad the standard was in that middleweight fight to be honest. I think the likes of Cage Warriors are where it's at UK wise. They seem to have the best standard or fighters along with good production values.

Production wise I think BAMMA is ahead of Cage Contender, but I agree with the comment that Chris wouldn't eaten them up. They seem to throw money at name fighters and fill the under card with fighters of lower standard. It really shows.

HellsAngel

Richy06 wrote: »

I couldn't believe how bad the standard was in that middleweight fight to be honest. I think the likes of Cage Warriors are where it's at UK wise. They seem to have the best standard or fighters along with good production values.

Production wise I think BAMMA is ahead of Cage Contender, but I agree with the comment that Chris wouldn't eaten them up. They seem to throw money at name fighters and fill the under card with fighters of lower standard. It really shows.

Well I disagree with on the production of Cage Contende vs BAMMA, despite BAMMA probably having a lot more money at it's disposal as it has a much bigger audience. Also the American guy doing the co commentary wasn't as good as Barry Oglesby in my opinion, he was ok, but couldn't give mush insight into MMA.

Richy06

I mean over the course of BAMMAs events, but not on last night's. They had afew technical glitches on the stream (commentators mikes, no VTs to cover the long gaps of nothing much going on) but maybe the broadcast version was different. Commentary was awful, I particularly remember a couple of things the american chap said that had me rubbing my head.

Xlami

I thought the production value for BAMMA 6 was unbelievable I don't know how they managed to **** it up so badly since then. Also I was at Rush so had to Sky Plus it and the broadcase ran over and I missed the last few minutes of Trigg Wallhead. I know this probably isn't BAMMA's fault but it's very ****ing annoying. I agree that Chris Fields would probably have both those guys, but overall BAMMA is still quite far ahead. I never understood why they or Cage Rage have British belts. I thought the BAMMA titles themselves while not just for British fighters are kind of reginal belts in the global scheme of things.

Plastikman_eire

HellsAngel wrote: »

Also the American guy doing the co commentary wasn't as good as Barry Oglesby in my opinion, he was ok, but couldn't give mush insight into MMA.

Yeah Stephen Quadros doesnt know ****:rolleyes:

SDTimeout

I'm not going to judge it compared to past shows. Little things however like another camera picking up the lighting guys infront of the fighters just looked sloppy and unprofessional.

Cage Contender and BAMMA both have a little trouble with how the fighters can be accessed by virtually anyone on the way to the cage however Cage Contender have stuck by venues that have done them well and the layouts work in both Kings hall and NBA so I won't complain there.

Cage Contender have a big chance with their next show, and the fact it's going to be live will make me think no stops are going to be pulled to ensure it's their best yet.

Barry.Oglesby

I'd say that Quadros fella is cacking it.

Xlami

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Yeah Stephen Quadros doesnt know ****:rolleyes:

Be great if they could get "The Voice" on a regular basis.

Tito Ortiz

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Yeah Stephen Quadros doesnt know ****:rolleyes:

The Andrew Winner and Andre Wynner was the best part of the show.

JK should be on the phone getting John Shields a shot at the MW Bamma title next.

HellsAngel

Xlami wrote: »

I thought the production value for BAMMA 6 was unbelievable I don't know how they managed to **** it up so badly since then. Also I was at Rush so had to Sky Plus it and the broadcase ran over and I missed the last few minutes of Trigg Wallhead. I know this probably isn't BAMMA's fault but it's very ****ing annoying. I agree that Chris Fields would probably have both those guys, but overall BAMMA is still quite far ahead. I never understood why they or Cage Rage have British belts. I thought the BAMMA titles themselves while not just for British fighters are kind of reginal belts in the global scheme of things.

Fair enough Xlami, so maybe I'm going too much by the middleweight bout the other night, needless it say it was total crap compared to the Alex Reid v Tom Watson fight on BAMMA3 ( BTW, TOm Watson trains in Canada).

Fighting is hard to quantify, it's not like some fellas runnning the mile in 3 mins and XX secs.

HellsAngel

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I'd say that Quadros fella is cacking it.

Barry your a man who has among the best inside knowledge of the fight game on the forum. What's your thoughts on Cage Cont v BAMMA, what analogy would you draw between them in say, car or football teams or whatever Or is it more down to the individual fighter rather than which organisation he comes from ?

Sid_Justice

Surely the Cage warriors champions would be a level above the cage contenders and more likely to challenge the BAMMA champion. I'm open to correction.

I think Chris fields is excellent at 185, and it would be interesting to see him fight the top guy in the UK but to say he'd be a favorite over Frank Trigg or Jim Wallhead surely would be an exaggeration.

Same for Pendred.

Tito Ortiz

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Surely the Cage warriors champions would be a level above the cage contenders and more likely to challenge the BAMMA champion. I'm open to correction.

I think Chris fields is excellent at 185, and it would be interesting to see him fight the top guy in the UK but to say he'd be a favorite over Frank Trigg or Jim Wallhead surely would be an exaggeration.

Same for Pendred.

Well Trigg and Wallhead are WW and Chris is a big MW so that aint gonna happen.

I would think Chris is finished with Irish fighters and really hope JF brings in some International fighters to test him against.

As for Cathal, I still think he has some fights here first and I'm not so sure his style of fighting would go down well on a big show in the UK.

Niall0

Tito Ortiz wrote: »

Well Trigg and Wallhead are WW and Chris is a big MW so that aint gonna happen.

I would think Chris is finished with Irish fighters and really hope JF brings in some International fighters to test him against.

How about American fighter Jake Hecht? He fought on Cage Warriors a couple of times recently and looked really impressive.

Barry.Oglesby

HellsAngel wrote: »

Barry your a man who has among the best inside knowledge of the fight game on the forum. What's your thoughts on Cage Cont v BAMMA, what analogy would you draw between them in say, car or football teams or whatever Or is it more down to the individual fighter rather than which organisation he comes from ?

I'd say they're not really like with like. Cage Contender is only 2 years old and while BAMMA is young too, there's a lot of weight and history behind it an the UK scene is larger and draws larger audiences generally. I'm also reliably informed that they get a lot more casual viewers in the UK, (ie. non-MMA fans) tuning in, possibly due to the SyFy link up. However I don't think the TV coverage is as good on BAMMA as on CC. Aside from not having a magnificently handsome and erudite colour commentator, I just find that they seem to be going for a UFC on a budget production, which I don't think they pull off. Cage Contender has a budget too of course, but I think the strength is in just doing the simple things well and leaving the fights to take care of themselves.

Ultimately though, fighters make fights, and aside from one or two mismatches, the Cage Contender matchmaking has been very good. And when the fights haven't been exciting, the local atmosphere has more than compensated. The Pendred/Shannon first match is a good example. If you look at that match without the emotional content, it was pretty poor entertainment after the 1st round, but the energy around the arena made it an amazing match to be at and that transferred to TV too thankfully.

If you have big international stars coming over to fight that's great, but how many fighters would fill an arena with fans passionately supporting them to make a great atmosphere? Not many, and they're all signed to the world leading promotions.

So in short, I like BAMMA, but I have an obvious bias to Cage Contender.

Barry.Oglesby

Ah I just thought of something too. Cage Contender's rise to prominence has really coincided with Irish MMA's rise generally. I ran the first Fight Before Christmas 3 years ago and it was the first show in Dublin after Cage of Truth stopped running shows months before that. I don't know my dates but TFBC1 actually arose because I had no shows to put my own guys on locally, and it didn't look like there was going to be another CoT (there may have been one more after that). Anyway, there were very few shows in Ireland at all around that time- no Battlezone, no Rumble in Rush, no Tuffnutts. Anyhow my point is that at this time the UK had a heap of shows including Cage rage, Cage Warriors and a heap of smaller shows that had been running for years. We're really still in the toddler stage over here in comparison, so we're not talking like with like at all in terms of history and having a stable base of fans.

Mr Hollywood

I have worked a lot of MMA shows including BAMMA, Cage Warriors and Cage Contender and many others. Im not gonna talk about the fights, because, on every show some are better than others and matchmaking is a hard business. I will however talk about the production cause that is the part I know. I think the thing with BAMMA is that they seem to have very deep pockets yet last weekend's show is the best they can do after 7 outings...AND, they are TV production company first and an MMA promotion second.

Having watched the show several times, I think these are the things they got wrong:
1. The commentary team...Quadros is usually pretty good but on Saturday he was terrible!! From Mispronouncing names, to getting stats wrong to stepping on his co-commentators..just really amateurish (I think you can partially blame the inconsitency of teams here, BAMMA has had a different commentary team for every show)

2. OJ Borg his post fight interviews were cringeworthy He is generally pretty good in front of the camera, but clearly not an avid MMA fan and it shows.

3. The Ring announcer...I thought Shadd was really off. it seemed like he couldnt find his rhythm. Im not a fan of his delivery anyway, the way he trails off the end of each name, but I thought it was particularly bad on Saturday. Also, his eyes were on his cards the whole time. The announcer has to connect with the audience...at home and in the venue or it gets lost...no cage presence. (And his suit was awful lol)

4. Technical issues: Lots of false starts and lots of talking over the top of one another. Granted live TV is hard, but you have to make sure everyone has comms and is clued up on the flow. Quadros stepped on Dales a couple of times, and they all had bits and pieces where they were starting several times...even the top of the show..LLLL, LLLLL, LLLL, LLLLL, LLLLL, LLLLaidies and Gentlemen... I fell for them, cause when technical glitches happen like that it looks like the guys in front aren't doing things right but it could be the back of house that has messed up.
Additinally, the stats on the on screen graphics didnt match the announcer a few times and they had lots of mic troubles. There were more but Ill leave it there.

5. The cage lighting: This is one of the hardest and most expensive things to get right! in face almost every show on tele misses this one. As I said, it is expensive and tricky to get it right, but it is one thing that makes a huge difference. regardless of what you think of the shows, in the UK/Irish scene, Cage Warriors and UCMMA both have great lighting and it shows.

Finally, (and the feedback on this point is gonna be fun) The on camera staff at BAMMA is ugly. Quadros looks like Frankenstein, Borg has bug eyes and Dales looks like a blond version of the Go Compare guy...This IS a TV show after all, so your on screen personalities should be well groomed and look good on camera.

Cage Contender on the other hand.....
1. The team works well together. Everyone knows what they are doing and how to do it and it gets better and better every show. Barry and Stuart are great commentators to begin with, but the fact that they work together so frequently is apparent and really comes across. I know just how and when they are going to introduce or throw the action to me, and we work on visual cues with one another to make sure we don't step on each other. Stuart does good, interesting post fight interviews and knows how to bring the character out of a fighter in these interviews.

2. The event is a good night out. There are no unnecessary delays on the night, and the action moves at a good pace....Irish fans are great, so the atmosphere is always amazing. That being said, this doesn't always come across on tele as it is hard to capture the ambient crowd noise in the broadcast. For instance at CCX, the crowd was so loud from in the cage that I couldn't even hear myself...I dont think that was the case on the broadcast.

3. Technical issues: Im not gonna lie and say CC doesnt have any, but this is part of what a professional team brings to the table...most technical issues that happen are covered up by those of us in the front so they are invisible to the crowd. John is very meticulous both before the show, and in the post mortem and does give constructive feedback to all involved.

4.The lighting: Yes the lighting on CC could be better, but as I said it is expensive and as the promotion grows I am sure the lighting rig will too! also, the addition of a few more camera angles and maybe a boom camera will make major differences.

Overall, CC is one of the most well run promotions I have worked, the team is great, the brand is great, the key thing is that since I started with them, every show has improved. and with the global TV footprint that CC currently has (over 70 countries), I believe that makes us one of the widest televised events in the world.

Both CC and BAMMA are young promotions, and have very different funding. I can only imagine what CC would do if they had BAMMA's budget! I have an idea of what their fight purse is...and I know what some of their personalities get paid...it just goes to show you, just cause you have a lot of money doesn't mean you can put out a top quality MMA broadcast. Some can do just as good or better with way less!

Xlami

HellsAngel wrote: »

Fair enough Xlami, so maybe I'm going too much by the middleweight bout the other night, needless it say it was total crap compared to the Alex Reid v Tom Watson fight on BAMMA3 ( BTW, TOm Watson trains in Canada).

Fighting is hard to quantify, it's not like some fellas runnning the mile in 3 mins and XX secs.

It's actually Arizona. But thats beside the point. My point is BAMMA is a young organisation will relatively small and unstable rosters. Most of the fighters are Brittish and they get them to fight some great international talent. I know they have a few middleweights but I don't think they have any division which warrants having two titles in it. Had that fight not been for a belt and had Efrain not cancelled, no one would of paid it much attention and I don't think we'd be discussing this.

cowzerp

Mr Hollywood wrote: »

3. The Ring announcer...I thought Shadd was really off. (And his suit was awful lol)

You do realise you have a huge dollar sign on your suit don't you?!

Rhetorical question.

Plastikman_eire

Xlami wrote: »

It's actually Arizona.

Has he left Jacksons then?

Jacksons is in New Mexico.

Xlami

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Has he left Jacksons then?

Jacksons is in New Mexico.

Sorry I was thinking Alberquerque. My bad.

Richy06

Alberquerque is in New Mexico....

mark.leonard

Mr Hollywood wrote: »

I have worked a lot of MMA shows including BAMMA, Cage Warriors and Cage Contender and many others. Im not gonna talk about the fights, because, on every show some are better than others and matchmaking is a hard business. I will however talk about the production cause that is the part I know. I think the thing with BAMMA is that they seem to have very deep pockets yet last weekend's show is the best they can do after 7 outings...AND, they are TV production company first and an MMA promotion second.

Having watched the show several times, I think these are the things they got wrong:
1. The commentary team...Quadros is usually pretty good but on Saturday he was terrible!! From Mispronouncing names, to getting stats wrong to stepping on his co-commentators..just really amateurish (I think you can partially blame the inconsitency of teams here, BAMMA has had a different commentary team for every show)

2. OJ Borg his post fight interviews were cringeworthy He is generally pretty good in front of the camera, but clearly not an avid MMA fan and it shows.

3. The Ring announcer...I thought Shadd was really off. it seemed like he couldnt find his rhythm. Im not a fan of his delivery anyway, the way he trails off the end of each name, but I thought it was particularly bad on Saturday. Also, his eyes were on his cards the whole time. The announcer has to connect with the audience...at home and in the venue or it gets lost...no cage presence. (And his suit was awful lol)

4. Technical issues: Lots of false starts and lots of talking over the top of one another. Granted live TV is hard, but you have to make sure everyone has comms and is clued up on the flow. Quadros stepped on Dales a couple of times, and they all had bits and pieces where they were starting several times...even the top of the show..LLLL, LLLLL, LLLL, LLLLL, LLLLL, LLLLaidies and Gentlemen... I fell for them, cause when technical glitches happen like that it looks like the guys in front aren't doing things right but it could be the back of house that has messed up.
Additinally, the stats on the on screen graphics didnt match the announcer a few times and they had lots of mic troubles. There were more but Ill leave it there.

5. The cage lighting: This is one of the hardest and most expensive things to get right! in face almost every show on tele misses this one. As I said, it is expensive and tricky to get it right, but it is one thing that makes a huge difference. regardless of what you think of the shows, in the UK/Irish scene, Cage Warriors and UCMMA both have great lighting and it shows.

Finally, (and the feedback on this point is gonna be fun) The on camera staff at BAMMA is ugly. Quadros looks like Frankenstein, Borg has bug eyes and Dales looks like a blond version of the Go Compare guy...This IS a TV show after all, so your on screen personalities should be well groomed and look good on camera.

Cage Contender on the other hand.....
1. The team works well together. Everyone knows what they are doing and how to do it and it gets better and better every show. Barry and Stuart are great commentators to begin with, but the fact that they work together so frequently is apparent and really comes across. I know just how and when they are going to introduce or throw the action to me, and we work on visual cues with one another to make sure we don't step on each other. Stuart does good, interesting post fight interviews and knows how to bring the character out of a fighter in these interviews.

2. The event is a good night out. There are no unnecessary delays on the night, and the action moves at a good pace....Irish fans are great, so the atmosphere is always amazing. That being said, this doesn't always come across on tele as it is hard to capture the ambient crowd noise in the broadcast. For instance at CCX, the crowd was so loud from in the cage that I couldn't even hear myself...I dont think that was the case on the broadcast.

3. Technical issues: Im not gonna lie and say CC doesnt have any, but this is part of what a professional team brings to the table...most technical issues that happen are covered up by those of us in the front so they are invisible to the crowd. John is very meticulous both before the show, and in the post mortem and does give constructive feedback to all involved.

4.The lighting: Yes the lighting on CC could be better, but as I said it is expensive and as the promotion grows I am sure the lighting rig will too! also, the addition of a few more camera angles and maybe a boom camera will make major differences.

Overall, CC is one of the most well run promotions I have worked, the team is great, the brand is great, the key thing is that since I started with them, every show has improved. and with the global TV footprint that CC currently has (over 70 countries), I believe that makes us one of the widest televised events in the world.

Both CC and BAMMA are young promotions, and have very different funding. I can only imagine what CC would do if they had BAMMA's budget! I have an idea of what their fight purse is...and I know what some of their personalities get paid...it just goes to show you, just cause you have a lot of money doesn't mean you can put out a top quality MMA broadcast. Some can do just as good or better with way less!

Great post.

you realise that you inadvertently (I'm sure) implied that Barry looks good on camera? Please correct this immediately or he will be even worse than he is now!

HellsAngel

Xlami wrote: »

Sorry I was thinking Alberquerque. My bad.

According to wiki " Tom "Kong" Watson (born 13 July 1982 in Southampton) is an English mixed martial artist, currently fighting at middleweight and training at Tristar Gym in Montreal, Canada and Jackson's Submission Fighting in Albuquerque, New Mexico. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Watson_(fighter)

" The Southampton product, who of late has been training alongside Georges St. Pierre in Montreal, has set a big target for his first fight in the MFC by taking on hometown hero Travis Galbraith (17-6). "
http://www.aroundtheoctagon.com/?p=3077