The "Che phenomenon"

4leto

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Given a choice, I'd wager someone in a poor country would rather be working in a sweatshop than sitting on their arse and starving.

Given another they would rather be working in good conditions and getting a fairer wage. Just what Che was supposedly wanting for them.

alastair

Given that the alternative to a Che teeshirt is, eh, another teeshirt - and we don't know where the said teeshirts are sourced, it seems kinda inane to damn the wearer for their choice.

Is there really a 'corporate' interest in Che teeshirts - seems like a free-for-all to me. As long as it doesn't subsidize Jim Fitzpatrick's crappy celtic hippy art, I'm happy enough.

Monty Burnz

4leto wrote: »

Given another they would rather be working in good conditions and getting a fairer wage. Just what Che was supposedly wanting for them.

So given a choice between what's possible and what's not, they'd choose what's not possible? Oh, those crazy dreamer poor Asian folks. Sure you wouldn't be up to them.

Unless you are postulating that there are a lot of well paid jobs with good conditions for them and they just don't know it?

DjFlin

Good ol' CliChe Guevara.

I know many a person who have no idea who he is or what he done, but wear his face because its fashionable.

Temaz

Pennys do a good line in his T-shirts!

Barrt2

cookies221 wrote: »

My question is: what makes a white, middle class, Trinity student in Ireland think that they can save the world?.

You answered you're own question really and i salute you sir :L

Edit, i agree with first post everything else is just meh

4leto

Relax I was only roughly quoting a comedian, and I'm in a crappy job and I dream of a better one as I am sure our Asian brothers do as well. Never mind the reality.

I only roughly know a little about che but I do recognise the branded image.

Barrt2

laoch na mona wrote: »

I have a che t shirt because the man did so much good
we really have to learn to celebrate true revolutionary who want to help people
most would use violence as a last resort (like the 1916 rising and the war of independence )

your kidding right?

OneArt

I work, pay my own bills and have a ridiculous ponytail.

The Scientician

Sure wasn't his granny Irish.

Dudess

Billy86 wrote: »

Wait, I thought the line was that those who feel Israel is mishandling the situation, were utterly unemployable students from rich backgrounds who all go to Trinity?

... So it is both public sector/semi-state workers and students causing all the trouble. Interesting, I've never seen people project anything-and-everything that they disagree with on these two demographics in an effort to fob off said issues, never ever before in my life.

Anybody fancy putting a pool together to see how long it takes for those who do not support US foreign policy or Israel's treatment of Palestine to be labelled as 'typical travellers' or 'ungrateful forguners'? We're at post #110 now, I would venture a wild guess for... post #246, if we get there.

And what about me then? I work in the private sector, and in insurance at that. So how do I fit into the communist-public-sector-semi-state-worker-who-also-happens-to-be-an-unemployable-student-from-a-rich-background grouping?

Don't be confused. He'd disagree with anything, even if it means being inconsistent and paradoxical, for the sake of having an auld dig at people who have the nerve to disagree with him on most things.

I do think a lot of middle-class privileged kids go on with an ultra left-wing, "rebellious" schtick yet don't actually experience hardship, and part of that is wearing a Che t-shirt, but everyone knows many Palestinians are disgracefully treated by the Israeli state, and only someone who has no compassion/has to take a right-wing stance at all times (because they're unable to think for themselves) wouldn't agree with that.

Welsh Megaman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ok, op is nuts, im out of here , agreed with his first post, but not this anti islam zionist extremism

Screw you guys, I'm going home

RichieC

Nodin wrote: »

"negros"?

This word is back in vogue for the hard right. it's technically correct, archaic but still be insulting. it's just black in Spanish though, George Orwell!

AeoNGriM

cookies221 wrote: »

Teenagers like to rebel or to reject the status quo. It gives them a sense of power and independence to hold opposing views to their parents. They often adopt (what they perceive as) radical left wing views and wear PLO scarves or Che Guevara tshirts to pronounce their political ideology to the world, without really having a clue of the issues involved. In other words, they do it because they think it's cool. They will attend anti-America and anti-Israeli marches, and then go home to post on Facebook about how radical they are and give themselves a pat on the back. The more dedicated may read Karl Marx and dabble in Islam.

Most children grow out of this phase when they realise it's time to cut the ridiculous ponytail, shave the bum fluff goatee, and get a job to pay the bills. The put on a suit and join the capitalist workforce that they denounced as evil a few years earlier. Oh the irony.

Sadly, some poor individuals never grow out of this adolescent mindset and fail to ever grasp a mature understanding of the world or its politics. They remain unemployable for life and so sit at home all day, posting long hate filled diatribes on internet forums, under the delusion that people are listening to them. Take the politics forum on this site for example. There are at least five Israel/Palestine threads on the first page. Let me remind you that this is an Irish site. We have zero historical ties to Palestine. Most Palestinians have never even heard of Ireland. Why not the same obsession with China/Tibet? Or Russia/Chechnya?

My question is: what makes a white, middle class, Trinity student in Ireland think that they can save the world? Remember when Irish student Kate O'Sullivan made an embarassing attempt to perform a citizen's arrest on Tony Blair at his book signing in Dublin last year? Cringe. Blair just rolled his eyes and made a nod towards security to chuck her out on the street with the other loonies. Only in Ireland. She will remain unemployable for life. I wouldn't expect any other diplmats to bother visiting Ireland again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

Bonus points if my improper use of the word grinds your gears.

conorhal

Making it into your thirties believing that Marxism still provides a viable alternative to capitalism is a bit like making it into your teens still believing that Santa Claus still comes down the chimney to deliver your presents on Christmas eve.

nacho libre

I can't understand how people on the left can criticise the actions of right- wing ideologues, yet defend this man. if he was overweight, with a balding plate, you wouldn't have the likes of Jane Fonda saying her big regret was she didn't sleep with Che.
Johann Hari has come in for some merited criticism in recent times, but at least, unlike many others on the left, he didn't allowing his political leaning cloud his opinion of Che Guevara's actions.

Teutorix

conorhal wrote: »

Making it into your thirties believing that Marxism still provides a viable alternative to capitalism is a bit like making it into your teens still believing that Santa Claus still comes down the chimney to deliver your presents on Christmas eve.

Though i may agree to some extent, true marxist ideals have never been implemented. That said, they probably never could be thanks to human nature being what it is.

Monty Burnz

Teutorix wrote: »

Though i may agree to some extent, true marxist ideals have never been implemented. That said, they probably never could be thanks to human nature being what it is.

Given that it's been tried dozens of times in dozens of cultures, I'd say the evidence is that it can't. And of course the next question is - even if it could somehow defeat human nature and be implemented - would it work anyway?

Logical Fallacy

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Given that it's been tried dozens of times in dozens of cultures, I'd say the evidence is that it can't. And of course the next question is - even if it could somehow defeat human nature and be implemented - would it work anyway?

I can't think of a single culture that has actually tried to implement Marx's Socialism. Many said they did...but were not actually doing it.

It's like the Bolsheviks saying they were Communist when they were not really.

strobe

Teutorix wrote: »

Though i may agree to some extent, true marxist ideals have never been implemented. That said, they probably never could be thanks to human nature being what it is.

I'm not a Marxist but I can't stand the 'human nature argument' against socialism. It's so shallow and lazy and is the same argument anti-abolitionists used to try and prolong the slave trade. Not to mention the argument war mongers use against pacifism and misogynists/misandrists use against sexual equality. I mean Jaysus, rape and murder can be argued to be 'human nature' but we don't say "ah well, what's the point trying to convince people to not rape and butcher each other. It's human nature.".

Samich

I've had so many LOLs from this thread! :P

alastair

RichieC wrote: »

This word is back in vogue for the hard right. it's technically correct, archaic but still be insulting. it's just black in Spanish though, George Orwell!

See also - 'moslems' instead of 'muslims'.

Dudess

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ok, op is nuts, im out of here , agreed with his first post, but not this anti islam zionist extremism

You... objecting to prejudice? Now that's some funny sh1t! :pac:

Eric Cartman

Dudess wrote: »

You... objecting to prejudice? Now that's some funny sh1t! :pac:

i dont like people hating on the muslims

the enemy of my enemy is my friend

Dudess

Anti semitic folks do tend to defend muslims all right...

LeixlipRed

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Given that it's been tried dozens of times in dozens of cultures, I'd say the evidence is that it can't. And of course the next question is - even if it could somehow defeat human nature and be implemented - would it work anyway?

Give us a few examples there my good man. And what is this human nature you speak of? You reckon cavemen were obsessed with materialism and screwing each other over? Nature/nurture, know which side I come down on anyway

fontanalis

Dudess wrote: »

Anti semitic folks do tend to defend muslims all right...

Shouldn;t anti semites dislike muslims aswell (something to do with shem)?

Molloys Clondalkin

Can someone clarify this for me
Che Guevara was a "revolutanary" in Cuba. his side won and communisim took hold.

So by left wing logic thats the "ultimate goal or paradise" or whatever there trying to achieve.

Then why are there so many Cuban people risking there lives to get into America the bastion of capatalism every year.

If communism was so good why dont they stay, and going by that why dont we have a system where we can swap people who want a marxist country with those who see it doesnt work and want to come here to try there hand at capatalism.?

fontanalis

Molloys Clondalkin wrote: »

Can someone clarify this for me
Che Guevara was a "revolutanary" in Cuba. his side won and communisim took hold.

So by left wing logic thats the "ultimate goal or paradise" or whatever there trying to achieve.

Then why are there so many Cuban people risking there lives to get into America the bastion of capatalism every year.

If communism was so good why dont they stay, and going by that why dont we have a system where we can swap people who want a marxist country with those who see it doesnt work and want to come here to try there hand at capatalism.?

Kind of like why there are more Irish bars in New York than Havana!

Molloys Clondalkin

Im sure theres an Irish bar or two for visiting lefty thinkers