So who here is on vatsim?

drdeadlift

Im on it,but i haven't flown online in a few months.Does there be any group flights??

Firekitten

I'm on, been flying on it for a few months now, taking my P1 practical tonight

Its good having a VA thats an authorised training institute too

storker

Firekitten wrote: »

I'm on, been flying on it for a few months now, taking my P1 practical tonight

Best of luck!

Stork

storker

drdeadlift wrote: »

Im on it,but i haven't flown online in a few months.Does there be any group flights??

I tried VATSIM once, but it didn't do anything for me...

Seriously... here's an account of my one VATSIM session to date, copied from a post I made to my VFC forum some time ago...

"3rd time lucky! Cork (EICK) was showing Ground, Tower and Approach controllers this evening so I filed for a quick VFR hop to Waterford (EIWF).

I think the ground controller was learning or observing or something because he wasn't talking or giving instructions - nevertheless he proved to be most important! I got clearance from EICK Tower but had a lot of trouble understanding the tower controller and he didn't seem to be the patient type. I just kept getting him to repeat until I got it, giving him the text option too. Hell if I can't understand him, I can't understand him - and he was Irish, so it wasn't the accent! Eventually I got it and taxi'd and took off without incident.

Tower then gave me an instruction about leaving the zone...which I asked for clarification on, partly because of the audible interference and partly because I wasn't sure what he was getting at anyway. I just kept getting the same instruction back about calling him leaving the zone. He "clarified" by text thus: CALL LEAVE THE ZONE. At this point I was realising that I hadn't done enough homework at all and asked whether the zone meant the traffic pattern or the EICK Approach area. He repeated the same instruction. He was sounding a bit ticked off at this point and I was feeling like a bit of a tit for not staying on the ground and listening for (a lot) longer.

Suddenly EICK ground sent me a text in plain speak: "..he just means to report when your leaving his control zone, its about 15nm away from the airport". Lightbulb moment! Good man yerself. No problem, I could track it on GPS. EICK GRND then said he'd give me a heads up when I was at that limit. I said thanks and said I was also watching it on GPS, not wanting to appear completely useless. He then told me it was the first circle on the GPS I had to watch out for. Lovely.

At 15nm I duly reported leaving EICK Tower's zone, and received a perfunctory hand-off to EICK Departure, which I also had to have him repeat. "And a good evening to you, too, you cranky pr**k", is what I was thinking. :roll: I only had to get EICK Ddeparture to repeat himself once, and he helpfully slowed down and gave it all again good naturedly. He said I was nearly out of his zone so I informed him when he knew I was leaving it. He then cleared me on own navigation and advised me to monitor UNICOM. I read back and thanked him for the service and we exchanged best wishes for the evening.

Once on my own I was able to relax a bit and sent EICK Ground a thanks-for-the-help-back-there text. Except I didn't sent it to him, I accidentally sent it to EICK Departure whose text tab was still active. Oh ****. I didn't want to get Ground into trouble because I know you're not meant to chat. Least said, soonest mended, I thought and sent nothing else to EICK Departure. I sent the message again to EICK Ground, though. In the meantime, EICK Departure responded to the text with " No probs. You did well. Understand you're a newbie" (I had mentioned this in my flight plan notes.) Departure obviously though the message was intended for him, which I didn't have a problem with because he deserved it anyway. Then Ground came back with a "No prob at all, here to help". I found these two gentlemen quite encouraging. As for the Tower controller, well he was in his rights to expect that I would know the procedures properly and I really should have prepared better, but there was only a tiny amount of traffic and I don't think it was necessary for him to be so spectacularly unhelpful. Still, I'll make sure I'm up to speed for the next time I'm in his airspace.

So...I'll definitely give it another go, but there's more procedural and phraseological (yes it is a word, I just made it up) homework to do first. The human touch makes a huge difference to realism and immersion but it does up the stress levels just a tad. FSX ATC and Radar contact don't give you a chance to fluff your lines, and you always know what's expected of you. Even using UNICOM adds to the cockpit workload because it's a lot trickier to type the fact that you're turning final than it is to press a button and just say so (I quickly sussed out that it's a good idea to type the message well in advance of when you actually need to send it).

Lessons learned:

- Acknowledge courtesy...especially when you know you'll be revisiting a control area!
- Do your homework! This isn't FSX ATC where you can wing it, or even ignore it. You really do need to know what you're doing.
- Minimise complexity. Taking the 172 was a good call. The last thing you need when dealing with human ATC is a lot of plane to have to fiddle with, unless you can already do so fluently.
- Don't let tightarses put you off.
- Ummm...
- ...that's it.

Hope this is of some help to anyone else thinking of taking the plunge!"

I haven't bothered with it since, but that's got a lot to do with the fact that there are never any controllers on where I want to fly at the times I'm free to fly. I should really look out for an scheduled event, I suppose.

Stork

Firekitten

Vatsim, isnt a game, as some think, its a simulation of real world practice, for those that want it. Its a steep learning curve, but it sure as hell improves your CRM and flight planning, and no I don't mean where you're going...

It can help you learn to have charts, aproach properly, depart properly, divert, you have to manage your coms and your nav, and fly the plane! Now you know why real world comercial jets have autopilots... theres a lot of work to do!

You can start easy... just log in with 'observing' in your flight plan comments box, tune into the controlers while sat on the parking spot, and just listen and learn... its a huge help if you're new to it all.

A lot of the time im on my own out in the boonies. I have to make myself call the pattern, call when im departing, look for aircraft when entering the runway. Its a great training tool. It can be as easy, or as hard as you want it. your aircraft type, as you rightly say, is a factor, as is route complexity, and route status... want to just fly? all you need to do is call ground, tower, departure, then go unicom till you reach your destination arrival, tower, and ground if they are there.. you dont 'have' to call centre if you're on a vfr hop unless you want flight following. If you want to just practice, pick an airport without controlers, and head to one with, it simplifies things, then you just make unicom departure notifications till airborne.

ie, 'cxa796 is taxiing for departure, runway 12, east departure'
'cxa796 entering 12'
'cxa clear of pattern'.

And you did the right thing, if the controler speaks too quickly, or is unclear, ask him to repeat himself till you get it, they get the message in the end. If you don;t understand an instruction, ask him to clarify. As a rule, avoid major airports with high density traffic, and Class A airspace! they get nutty unless you're savy with it.

highlydebased

Retired vatsim fanatic! Have about 2500 pilot hours, about 800 controller hours. Was an instructor/supervisor toward the end of my time on the network. Left entirely for personal reasons.


Advice I'd give to new people would be to do your homework! Start out at regional airports etc. If you don't understand something ATC says then seek clarification. Listen to Live ATC to pick up the phraseology. If you're flying IFR flights know your aircraft inside out. DIRECT GPS is NOT a valid IFR routing. You'll need a payware aircraft to do an IFR flight because freeware stuff doesnt really have the functionality you need.

storker

highlydebased wrote: »

You'll need a payware aircraft to do an IFR flight because freeware stuff doesnt really have the functionality you need.

That's interesting, and not an opinion I've come across before. Why is that, exactly? Surely any aircraft with VOR/DME, NDB, timer etc would be good to go for IFR?

I'm not arguing the point, because I fly very little IFR (yet) and most of what IFR I do is in VFR conditions anyway, but I am curious to know.

Stork

John_Mc

storker wrote: »

That's interesting, and not an opinion I've come across before. Why is that, exactly? Surely any aircraft with VOR/DME, NDB, timer etc would be good to go for IFR?

I'm not arguing the point, because I fly very little IFR (yet) and most of what IFR I do is in VFR conditions anyway, but I am curious to know.

Stork

If you look at the SIDS, stars and even Approach charts at most airports today, you'll see that a lot of them are Rnav, which requires a Gps based form of navigation. You cant perform them using Vors and radials, or ndbs.

Vatsim is a fantastic service to have for free. When I started doing my PPL, I had absolutely no problems with Atc or the procedures because I was using Fs in conjunction with vatsim.

Stick with it - it's well worth it and you'll never look back

drdeadlift

John_Mc wrote: »

If you look at the SIDS, stars and even Approach charts at most airports today, you'll see that a lot of them are Rnav, which requires a Gps based form of navigation. You cant perform them using Vors and radials, or ndbs.

Vatsim is a fantastic service to have for free. When I started doing my PPL, I had absolutely no problems with Atc or the procedures because I was using Fs in conjunction with vatsim.

Stick with it - it's well worth it and you'll never look back

I recall reading a jepp chart,i always thought there was an option to fly rnav&non rnav into the same airspace and to the same runway.I think it was one of the approaches to Paris cdg.
I do know its easier to get across the us using navaids,the eu is moving away from the use of navaids so flying on some airways will be tricky without gps.

Firekitten

All this fancy tech... Up in BC, with a cessna 206 under my bum, I read a map and look out the window! *complains about the good old days and hides her gns430*

highlydebased

Indeed, you won't be able to fly proper flight plans without an FMC basically...easily anyway

drdeadlift

Firekitten wrote: »

All this fancy tech... Up in BC, with a cessna 206 under my bum, I read a map and look out the window! *complains about the good old days and hides her gns430*

Maybe stick with low alt airways,would that be half a solution?

Firekitten

highlydebased wrote: »

Indeed, you won't be able to fly proper flight plans without an FMC basically...easily anyway

Who said life was easy? lol you have a good point, but its all relative to the level of aviation you're doing. Want to do jet routes? yes, its pretty much required, want to fly bush, or GA? less so.

drdeadlift wrote: »

Maybe stick with low alt airways,would that be half a solution?

Heh, not possible. There's all of two, and they don't go to half of my destinations, and with the weaither, the ceiling often pushes you lower than the airways, and routes. When I say BC, I mean the fjords, and islands. And I'm not flying 737s :P

storker

Firekitten wrote: »

Who said life was easy? lol you have a good point, but its all relative to the level of aviation you're doing. Want to do jet routes? yes, its pretty much required, want to fly bush, or GA? less so.

Heh, not possible. There's all of two, and they don't go to half of my destinations, and with the weaither, the ceiling often pushes you lower than the airways, and routes. When I say BC, I mean the fjords, and islands. And I'm not flying 737s :P

The fjords are great for scud running when the weather's bad.

Stork

Firekitten

Got myself in trouble a while back when the ceiling was low... it came down as I was flying inland, and I had to drop to stay vfr. A wrong turn took me up a dead end valley, and I barely had the power to climb out, it got so bad, my stall horn was screaming as I reached the ridge, and I was going to hit it, but I can only sumise that some ridge lift from the windward side got under my wings at the last moment, because my main wheels just kissed the ridge top before I cleared it. A rather hairy moment. Mountain flying in bad weather requires perfect navigation, and you often don't get a second chance. Its a real test of flying up there. Virtual or not.

drdeadlift

Firekitten wrote: »

Got myself in trouble a while back when the ceiling was low... it came down as I was flying inland, and I had to drop to stay vfr. A wrong turn took me up a dead end valley, and I barely had the power to climb out, it got so bad, my stall horn was screaming as I reached the ridge, and I was going to hit it, but I can only sumise that some ridge lift from the windward side got under my wings at the last moment, because my main wheels just kissed the ridge top before I cleared it. A rather hairy moment. Mountain flying in bad weather requires perfect navigation, and you often don't get a second chance. Its a real test of flying up there. Virtual or not.

Sounds like fun

Firekitten

Fun? after, perhaps, at the time I was fighting to stay in the air! I absolutely hate crashing in the sim! its so depressing, I avoid it at all costs normally.

storker

Firekitten wrote: »

Fun? after, perhaps, at the time I was fighting to stay in the air! I absolutely hate crashing in the sim! its so depressing, I avoid it at all costs normally.

I do that too. Also if I crash or bend the plane, I don't log the hours and have to start the flight from scratch. It makes me much more careful I find, but I hate crashing anyway - it always makes me think that if it was real, I'd be dead.

I remember one flight from Wrangell to Ketchikan where about 1/3 of the way into it, I noticed some kind of smoke or vapour coming from the wing (C172). Eventually, I sussed out that the right fuel tank was leaking. This was the return leg and I hadn't refuelled, so I had to calculate whether to press on or turn back. I wasn't use to having to do that but came to the conclusion that I should get home with about 15-20% fuel remaining. There were also several airstrips along the route so I could always divert if necessary, so I decided to press on.

I switched the fuel selector to the bad tank only so as to use up as much as I could before it was gone, reasoning that the fuel in the good tank wasn't going anywhere, and switched back to the good tank when the other was almost empty.

I was an interesting trip, with more and more input corrections required as the differing amounts of fuel in the tanks unbalanced the aircraft. Made it back eventually, with about 25% fuel left.

All in all, it was a fun experience and very immersive. I surprised myself at how seriously I took the go/no go decision. Of course, I could have "magically" refuelled at any time but that would have killed the experience.

Stork

Firekitten

I had similar recently. Beech Duke b60 from Campbell Island (CAF2) to PANT, Annette Island, Alaska. It builds up airframe time in the plane, so the more you use it, the more abuse wears parts etc... So i save after each flight, and go from last place to next, over my route area. I was in a rush, didnt refuel... took off without nearly enough to reach my destination...

Stuck out over the queen charlotte straight, with a serious fuel emergency. In the end, after many calculations, I factored my only chance of reaching Sandspit was to shut down an engine, and proceed on one... (just over half my fuel consumption on one at full power, vs two at low) I made it in, JUST, the sort of landing where you dump your flaps and gear at the last moment, for fear of using up valuable airspeed. A dicey one, but its taught me to tripple check my damn tanks! thats the price you pay for needing to do something... busyness is no excuse for procedure!

Oh, got the marks breakdown on my P1.

90% on my theory, 92% on my practical (despite the damn pmdg 1900D)

storker

Firekitten wrote: »

I had similar recently. Beech Duke b60 from Campbell Island (CAF2) to PANT, Annette Island, Alaska. It builds up airframe time in the plane, so the more you use it, the more abuse wears parts etc... So i save after each flight, and go from last place to next, over my route area. I was in a rush, didnt refuel... took off without nearly enough to reach my destination...

Stuck out over the queen charlotte straight, with a serious fuel emergency. In the end, after many calculations, I factored my only chance of reaching Sandspit was to shut down an engine, and proceed on one... (just over half my fuel consumption on one at full power, vs two at low) I made it in, JUST, the sort of landing where you dump your flaps and gear at the last moment, for fear of using up valuable airspeed. A dicey one, but its taught me to tripple check my damn tanks! thats the price you pay for needing to do something... busyness is no excuse for procedure!

Good call. Imagine putting yourself in that position in real life, though. Ouch. And it has happened. I remember some years ago reading an accident investigation report into the death of a pilot who was flying a Piper Navajo from Spain to England. He either miscalculated his fuel or failed to account properly for headwinds, but either way he ended up ditching in the English Channel because his fuel ran out. If he'd detoured to an airport in Normandy to top up his tanks he might still be alive. Getthereitis struck again.

Oh, got the marks breakdown on my P1.

90% on my theory, 92% on my practical (despite the damn pmdg 1900D)

Well, back in the old Leaving Cert days, that would have been an "A", so well done.

Stork

Firekitten

storker wrote: »

Good call. Imagine putting yourself in that position in real life, though. Ouch. And it has happened. I remember some years ago reading an accident investigation report into the death of a pilot who was flying a Piper Navajo from Spain to England. He either miscalculated his fuel or failed to account properly for headwinds, but either way he ended up ditching in the English Channel because his fuel ran out. If he'd detoured to an airport in Normandy to top up his tanks he might still be alive. Getthereitis struck again.



Well, back in the old Leaving Cert days, that would have been an "A", so well done.

Stork

A friend once said the average GA twin has the single engine performance for you to reach the site of the crash. two out? erm. As for him running out of juice, that was a silly mistake, what with the plethora of french fields. I agree, fixation, miscalculation, however, I wouldn't intentionally enter a body of water, without KNOWING I had enough to cross it, and atleast enough to turn back at any point If I had to. (obviously not the atlantic duh). In my sim situation, it was a simple fact of not checking. (I typically fill my tanks before every flight, this loaded one threw me)
By the time I realised it, i had no chance to turn back, or I would have. My priority was a safe landing. my choice to shut down an engine was based on fuel consumption, time, velocity, and altitude. I simply didn't expect on a twin engine burn, to make it, was it right? I don't know, some might say because I made it, it was, but I treated it as a learning experience (for one with no twin experience beyond the sim, it was facinating to go over and analyse).

As for the P1, yeah, was impressed, knew I'd passed straight after, my instructor told me, but the breakdown was interesting to read. Fell down on my IFR specifics, mostly the ifr flight plan, and some of the ifr aproach charts. More to work on eh?

storker

Firekitten wrote: »

however, I wouldn't intentionally enter a body of water, without KNOWING I had enough to cross it, and atleast enough to turn back at any point If I had to.

I do a lot of flying around Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands, and because I fly mostly single-engine at the moment, I plan my flights to stay over land as much as possible, only crossing significant stretches of water when I have enough altitude in hand in case of a problem. I also route around restricted areas, MOAs, class A and B space (where possible), etc.

Of course, none of that is necessary, but I find that plannning and executing flights in the same way as you would if it was real adds to the spice; DIY difficulty levels, if you like.

Stork

Firekitten

Oh yeah, had a fun chat with Vancouver centre over the Canadian Air Defence Identification Zone. I requested permission to deviate around, he didn't know it was there... cue 'huh' moment.

pclancy

If you want a good night on Vatsim i suggest you get up early on a Sunday morning and join our VATNZ sunday night ops...some really cool places to fly in New Zealand and always a good turn out.

www.vatnz.net

Firekitten

I'd be up for joining you guys, what sort of times, locations, or antics are had?

drdeadlift

seeing as its xmas and a few might have the time off,anyone up for doing a group flight across Europe or the the pond early next week ?

Firekitten

pclancy wrote: »

If you want a good night on Vatsim i suggest you get up early on a Sunday morning and join our VATNZ sunday night ops...some really cool places to fly in New Zealand and always a good turn out.

www.vatnz.net

I actually got on with Christchurch control this sunday morning! Twas awesome having atc down there

pclancy

Great stuff yeah they're a good bunch and always happy to help if I don't have the right charts on hand or somehow manage to screw up my FMC

Firekitten

I was annoying him by going vfr had to get corrected on the N-S alts rather than east west! But was all good. Had requested flight following as I was in the mountains, but it all worked out well and It was largely uneventful. Will be on more often on sunday mornings for more methinks.

andy_g

Must give it a go down there been too busy in work to be simming lately but i have a week off next week happy days