Motorbikes in cycle lanes

Surveyor11

Not sure of this has been raised before, but this seems to be getting out of control in my neck of the woods. Can appreciate that motorbikes are vulnerable, and some may be ex-car drivers anxious to shave their commute, but in cycle lanes? This evening, I was barged out of a bike lane by a motorbike on the way up the Cabra Road - to the extent that I was forced out of the cycle lane and into cars coming in the lane to my left. They have recently carried out improvement to the junction at the library at Cabra, which (in theory) makes it safer for cyclists. No fewer than 3 motor bikes at the lights proceeded to head up behind me, one passes me so close that I had to move out of the way and onto the car lane, then proceeds to hog it all the way through the next few junctions with me furiously peddling behind to have a word. Couldn't get to the guy to remind him that, as a fellow 'bi-wheel', I would have expected more - but no, it seems they are happy to barge us out of the way. Guys look like regular bikers i.e. not bike couriers, who I put up there with taxi drivers in terms of their disregard for all other road users. Have had this happen quiet frequently - sometimes, one will hog my back wheel all the way up the Navan Road. Next time, I'm taking regs and reporting to the gardai. Anyone any experience of this?

DirkVoodoo

Yeah, I've seen it but never thought it was that dangerous. Most motorbikers tend to be a little more aware and less likely to run you over than the average commuter.

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Couldn't get to the guy to remind him that, as a fellow 'bi-wheel', I would have expected more - but no, it seems they are happy to barge us out of the way.

Maybe he is just being "bi-curious"...

seanybiker

I'm a biker meself and I don't cycle. Personally I would never go into cycle lane. There's plenty of room for me on the road.
Obviously Dublin is busier than waterford so i presume they just don't like waiting about.

You try remember the reg if it happens again.

650Ginge

We are all bikes and if we respect each other I don't see the problem.

You do know (I don't agree with this by the way) but most cycle lanes have a broken line marking making them discretionary, other road traffic may enter them if they wish and you have no special rights in them.

Not saying it was in this case.

GSF

Reminds me of the crazy moped rider with the Welsh dragon painted on it who comes in from Phoenix Park and down the quays who waves his arms and shouts at cyclists in the bus lanes who block his progress down said bus lane.

Haven't seen him for a while. Maybe he got so angry that his head exploded?

oflahero

Sounds like Lee, formerly of Scooter Island. Not the most Zen of men. Though he was handy with a wrench, in a good way. Haven't seen him in years. Will steer clear so if I'm on the pedal bike and not the PX200...

macnab

I am a cyclist and a biker, I frequently use the cycle lanes on my motorbike but I always give way to cyclists. I would only use the cycle lane if it is clear of cyclists, car traffic has stopped and there is heavy oncoming traffic. So when I think about it that is the stretch of road from Cabra Garda station to the next junction heading out of town. I do know that a lot of bikers have no time for cyclists so maybe thats the variety you are dealing with.

Hmmzis

650Ginge wrote: »

We are all bikes and if we respect each other I don't see the problem.

You do know (I don't agree with this by the way) but most cycle lanes have a broken line marking making them discretionary, other road traffic may enter them if they wish and you have no special rights in them.

Not saying it was in this case.

That's incorrect.

A cycle lane can ONLY be used by bicycles and motorized wheelchairs.
If there is an interrupted line partitioning the cycle lane from the car lane (non mandatory cycle lane) then cars can be parked there for up to 30min but only if loading/unloading of goods and there is no other parking facility available. Loading/Unloading is not meant as running in the local store to pick up some stuff while dumping the car on a cycle lane.

Where there is an uninterrupted line (considered a mandatory cycling lane) parking is not permissible at any time or circumstances. Technically a cyclist mad enough could just hit a car parked in a mandatory cycle lane and sue the owner/driver of the vehicle for damages and compensation. Somebody might even get rich .

Both types of cycle lanes can be crossed by other traffic if turning left or right into a side road, access gate or drive way.

This means no mopeds, scooters or motorbikes are allowed to use a cycle lane in the manner described by the OP.

On a similar note, scooters, mopeds and motorbikes are actually also not allowed to use a bus lane - only buses, taxis and cyclists are permitted on a bus lane during its operating hours.

carthoris

Hmmzis wrote: »

That's incorrect.

A cycle lane can ONLY be used by bicycles and motorized wheelchairs.

I would disagree as the ROTR states:

ROTR wrote:

A mandatory cycle lane can ONLY be used by bicycles and motorized wheelchairs.

(http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_other-road-users.html)

Thus a non-mandatory cycle can be used by other vehicles, including motorcycles. This
makes it effectively part of the road, allowing motorcycles to use it for filtering.

That said the barging that the OP speaks of is unacceptable. And filtering on the left is not that smart.

stas

In my view the 410 is in desperate need of two extra sub-forums: "Choosing New Bike" and "Cycling Rants". There's no end to either

tomasrojo

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Maybe he is just being "bi-curious"...

Store Clerk: Are you actually going to buy something this time or are you just curious?

Tobias Fünke: Well, let’s just say I’m buy-curious.

Surveyor11

OK, have checked google maps - the cycle lane heading out the Navan Road from the library is a solid organge one, with a solid line marking it from the traffic lane - so it's a mandatory one and I always use it - other than the odd car turning left, it's grand. It's a main route out of town and, as cycle lanes go, generally grand. There are breaks at junctions, as per this link: http://g.co/maps/ed66a to let other vehicles pass in at junctions - cars, bikes etc. Although it still is littered with cars parked in it up towards the SVP pool - obviously too much to expect for motorists to use their driveways. :rolleyes: Maybe a call to the clampers will sort this one out - separate rant!:pac:

I agree that most motorcyclists are generally respectful of cyclists, and wouldn't agree with the comment that most motorbikes have no time for cyclists. They are next in line in terms of vulnerability IMO, but last night was just plain ignorant and dangerous. Lately this lane has been used as a handy rat run for motor bikes - and once one does it, the flood gates open and before you know it it's a motorbike lane. I thought the whole idea was to separate cyclists from all motorised vehicles? I will certainly be having a word with my fellow two wheeled friend who tries this stunt again, that's if I can get into the cycling space at the top at the lights. :rolleyes:

tomasrojo

Surveyor11 wrote: »

They are next in line in terms of vulnerability IMO

I'd argue that they're first in line. They definitely have the worst road-accident statistics, whether you define it per km or per hour travelled.

But they're not suitable to use cycle lanes.

Keep_Her_Lit

Can't say I'm a big fan of motorcycles in the cycle lane. My main gripe is that they usually hinder progress. If the motorcycle in question is one of those appalling cheapo Harley clones, it typically has wing mirrors spaced about 1m apart. So the first truck (or car) that's nudging ever so slightly into the cycle lane brings the biker almost to a halt, as he cautiously paddles his way past at 2-3km/h. Then he catches up on a drove of POB's on BSO's and that's it, game up. Next thing, I'm out in the middle of the road, filtering through traffic in an attempt to make some progress, i.e. exactly where he should be.

I'd rarely say anything, mind you, as it's just an inconvenience rather than a risk. Though I did have a near miss a while back when, in moving traffic, a biker slewed from the middle of the road through a gap in the traffic straight into the cycle lane without so much as a rearward glance over his left shoulder. I was coming along the cycle lane at a decent clip and would have collided with the dosey knob-end had I maintained my speed and position. So instead, I overtook him in what remained of the gap, which I think helped to wake him up before he got into work that day.

Then recently, another chap sauntered casually into the cycle lane when his lane ahead was clogged with stationary traffic. He plodded along for a bit until he saw that the cycle lane was also blocked (typical situation: right-turning traffic is queued, so the traffic going straight on plonks itself in the cycle lane to squeeze past). So then, just as casually, he heaves his horrible little bike (yes, one of those wannabe easy-rider rip-offs with a 125cc engine) up onto the footpath and carries on his merry way. On that occasion, being highly impressed by his versatile and adaptable riding style, I did offer some compliments at the next set of red lights. I also expressed my surprise at his decision to wait at the pesky lights and assured him that if he made a run for it, he would probably squeeze through one of the small gaps in the fast moving traffic going across the junction. Probably.

thirtythirty

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

Then recently, another chap sauntered casually into the cycle lane when his lane ahead was clogged with stationary traffic. He plodded along for a bit until he saw that the cycle lane was also blocked (typical situation: right-turning traffic is queued, so the traffic going straight on plonks itself in the cycle lane to squeeze past). So then, just as casually, he heaves his horrible little bike (yes, one of those wannabe easy-rider rip-offs with a 125cc engine) up onto the footpath and carries on his merry way. On that occasion, being highly impressed by his versatile and adaptable riding style, I did offer some compliments at the next set of red lights. I also expressed my surprise at his decision to wait at the pesky lights and assured him that if he made a run for it, he would probably squeeze through one of the small gaps in the fast moving traffic going across the junction. Probably.

Take out the part in bold and you've perfectly described most Dublin cyclists

Look, put it this way. The amount of bicycles that get in the way of all other forms of transport is no different to all other forms of transport that get in the way of bicycles. Anyone ranting about "them" and doesn't admit that their form of transport is troublesome to others is either ignorant, stupid, or thoroughly unobservant. And I'm talking about people on all sides, not implying anyone here is ignorant and stupid!

A system of transport where all forms of transport are perfectly segregated is unrealistic, both from a planning and real-world perspective. The best we can hope for is the growth of a "mutual road-user respect". Then we can band together and all target our hate towards them damn train users, blocking our path across the tracks with their stupid red and white barriers!

Keep_Her_Lit

spottyelephant wrote: »

Anyone ranting about "them" and doesn't admit that their form of transport is troublesome to others is either ignorant, stupid, or thoroughly unobservant. And I'm talking about people on all sides, not implying anyone here is ignorant and stupid!

Ah relax will you, before your spots fall off! As I commented above, "I'd rarely say anything". That's because it doesn't really bother me. I was just throwing in my opinionated tuppenceworth to aid the digestion of my lunch.

Regarding your claim that "the amount of bicycles that get in the way of all other forms of transport is no different to all other forms of transport that get in the way of bicycles", if you think about it for a millisecond or two, you'll realise that the chances of that being true are exceedingly remote.

You've merely tossed in that baseless load of old cobblers to create the impression of even handedness, thereby providing yourself with the opportunity to spray your vitriol around - "ignorant, stupid, or thoroughly unobservant" - while simulataneously denying that you are doing so - "not implying anyone here is ignorant and stupid". Rhetoric fail.

I won't speak for other cyclists but for my own part, I make a point of not getting in the way of people using any form of transport, including other cyclists and pedestrians, for the simple reason that it minimises risk.

If riding your motorcycle in the cycle lane is dear to your heart, carry on. It just means that you're one more obstacle in the mobile slalom that makes commuting by bicycle such an engaging experience. Your presence won't influence my journey time by that much because one way or another, I'll be coming past you before long.

By the way, do you ride one of those horrible little motorcycles to which I refer above? If so, would you please consider changing it for something a little more aesthetically pleasing so that I at least have something decent to look at while I'm waiting to get past you (e.g. a ZX-10R, R1, Fireblade or GXSR1000 would do nicely). Thanks.

rp

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

By the way, do you ride one of those horrible little motorcycles to which I refer above? If so, would you please consider changing it for something a little more aesthetically pleasing so that I at least have something decent to look at while I'm waiting to get past you (e.g. a ZX-10R, R1, Fireblade or GXSR1000 would do nicely). Thanks.

Na, how about something Italian from the 70's? I nicely restored MHR or a Laverda 750SFC? Things I can only dream of as a poor push-bike rider....

Keep_Her_Lit

rp wrote: »

Na, how about something Italian from the 70's? I nicely restored MHR or a Laverda 750SFC? Things I can only dream of as a poor push-bike rider....

A man of refined tastes, I see.;)

Gotta say though, I've a fondness for Jap metal. It was the big four that made hyper-performance truly affordable and forced the others to get their acts together - goodbye bendy steel frames, spindly 19" wheels and air-cooled engines. OK, this is now OT. Enough.

happytramp

rp wrote: »

Na, how about something Italian from the 70's? I nicely restored MHR or a Laverda 750SFC? Things I can only dream of as a poor push-bike rider....

With some of these......

thirtythirty

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

Regarding your claim that "the amount of bicycles that get in the way of all other forms of transport is no different to all other forms of transport that get in the way of bicycles", if you think about it for a millisecond or two, you'll realise that the chances of that being true are exceedingly remote.

No, I think it's perfectly correct. If you are referring to ratio of No. of other road users to cyclists, sure "others" > "cyclists" therefore it would make sense that there are less cyclists in the way of "others".
But im talking real-world context i.e. cyclists are less likely to courteously keep themselves out of the way so it would be close to 100% of cyclists "getting in the way" vs maybe 15% of other road users completely incognisant of cyclists and getting in their way, therefore leaving a close-ish ratio of 1:1 overall numbers wise.

As an anecdotal example: waiting for a gap in traffic to pull through, I have yet to experience a cyclist realising that they were going to block my once-in-10-minute chance to get through the traffic, and slow to let me out. Cyclists will cycle on no matter what saying "why should I slow, you have an engine". Whereas cycling along a cycle path in Dublin in rush hour, I'd probably only experience a car severely encroaching on the cycle lane once ever 30 or 40 cars I go past.

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

You've merely tossed in that baseless load of old cobblers to create the impression of even handedness, thereby providing yourself with the opportunity to spray your vitriol around - "ignorant, stupid, or thoroughly unobservant" - while simulataneously denying that you are doing so - "not implying anyone here is ignorant and stupid". Rhetoric fail.

No I wasn't; I wrote that second sentence explicitly because I knew someone would try and say that I was saying it in direct response. I stand by myself and gaurantee that I wasn't trying to execute what you've suggested above!

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

I won't speak for other cyclists but for my own part, I make a point of not getting in the way of people using any form of transport, including other cyclists and pedestrians, for the simple reason that it minimises risk.

If riding your motorcycle in the cycle lane is dear to your heart, carry on. It just means that you're one more obstacle in the mobile slalom that makes commuting by bicycle such an engaging experience. Your presence won't influence my journey time by that much because one way or another, I'll be coming past you before long.

As I've mentioned on boards before, I'm a cyclist, motorcyclist, and motorist, so I also make a point of being cognisant of all on the roads. And it works for me as I've never even come close to any scrapes while travelling by any of those means. Hence my whole "mutual road-user" respect mantra - I don't care how people travel, I just don't think people should be entitled to think they are "owed" obstruction-free travel for their personal mode of choice.

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

By the way, do you ride one of those horrible little motorcycles to which I refer above? If so, would you please consider changing it for something a little more aesthetically pleasing so that I at least have something decent to look at while I'm waiting to get past you (e.g. a ZX-10R, R1, Fireblade or GXSR1000 would do nicely). Thanks.

I don't ride one of those horrible little ones, no. I ride a clapped out 125 tourer so I can see OVER the traffic, rather than under like them!


Edit: I'd like to add to all the above, "in my experience"

seamus

It doesn't bother me all that much, though I wouldn't put up with being pressured by a following motorbike and on the odd occasion that I encounter one stopped in the cycle lane, it does bother me that they don't move over to let me pass. I'm smaller, I can get through the gap, get out of my way.

But it's rare enough. Funnily though it was yesterday that I encountered an utterly sh1te woman on what looked like a CB 50. She looked like she barely had any control over the thing, drove at 30km/h and wore pink wellies on her feet. Every time we came to traffic, she would opt to overtake on the left, then stop when she thought she couldn't get past. Was stuck behind her for bleedin ages.
I'd be surprised if she even had a licence or insurance, she didn't have a clue.

But as I say, very rare to encounter these. Thankfully the recession has caused a severe drop in the number of hairdryers on the road driven by 16 year olds in a ****e manner.

Lumen

Dear Motorbicyclists,

When you decide to stop because you can't fit your fat bike through that gap, can you please leave enough room for me to squeeze past you, rather than stopping in the gap?

Thanks.

As you were.

Idleater

Lumen wrote: »

Dear Motorbicyclists,

When you decide to stop because you can't fit your fat bike through that gap, can you please leave enough room for me to squeeze past you, rather than stopping in the gap?

Thanks.

As you were.

I (on the motorbike) once followed a motorbike cop up the centre of the Blanchardstown M50 off ramp (back when m50 was being widened) when the traffic was way back in queues.

We got most of the way up with many people moving slightly out of the way as appropriate, until the copper stopped right beside the driver's door of a car that was awkwardly stopped because they wanted to go into the right lane.

There was plenty of room in front, but they were just picking some one on the other lane to pull in front of. Now, most people would notice a large white bike with engine running, lights, blue ones too, a big horn, aerials, a large man in a luminous jacket etc etc, but not this person. They continued their telephone conversation until the lights went green and they realised their path right was blocked.

Aah well, that was one instance when I had at least some entertainment whilst blocked in traffic

carthoris

spottyelephant wrote: »

As an anecdotal example: waiting for a gap in traffic to pull through, I have yet to experience a cyclist realising that they were going to block my once-in-10-minute chance to get through the traffic, and slow to let me out. Cyclists will cycle on no matter what saying "why should I slow, you have an engine". Whereas cycling along a cycle path in Dublin in rush hour, I'd probably only experience a car severely encroaching on the cycle lane once ever 30 or 40 cars I go past.

In this instance I would not slow to let you out either. But not because I am discourteous but because if I did slow down then either the car that is behind me will try and overtake (and prevent you from pulling out along with distracting them from your presence on the road) or they will not overtake and will just drive into the back of me. IME a cyclist doesn't really have the road presence to hold traffic behind them to allow someone to pull out.

KTRIC

Speaking as a long time full time biker, I can honestly say I don't and will never use the cycle lanes.

A couple of reasons, they're too small for the average bike, they're full of glass and other debris. Oh, and they're full of silly cyclists :pac:

I did notice that the majority of bikers using them are cagers that are driving scooters, its clear from their command of the road and manners that they're fairly inexperienced, hence doing things like using the cycle lanes and breaking red lights to sit in the middle of a junction.

carthoris

KTRIC wrote: »

Speaking as a long time full time biker, I can honestly say I don't and will never use the cycle lanes ... they're full of silly cyclists :pac:

The smart cyclists filter on the right :cool:

rp

carthoris wrote: »

The smart cyclists filter on the right :cool:

What? And put your self where drivers can see you? What kinda Ninja are you?

rollingscone

I take more issue with Mopeds and Scooters availing of footpath (as opposed to onroad) cycle lanes.

HivemindXX

carthoris wrote: »

In this instance I would not slow to let you out either. But not because I am discourteous but because if I did slow down then either the car that is behind me will try and overtake (and prevent you from pulling out along with distracting them from your presence on the road) or they will not overtake and will just drive into the back of me. IME a cyclist doesn't really have the road presence to hold traffic behind them to allow someone to pull out.

I agree with this. I used to stop and let people out when it seemed like a good idea and most of the time one of two things happened.

A steady stream of cars continued to overtake me meaning that I've stopped for no reason.

The motorist in the side road doesn't move because they are unsure whether I am letting them out or simply a very slow cyclist. Eventually someone will decide that the other person doesn't want the road at this time and will move. With unfortunate frequency it's both of us at the same time.

Since this is the case I've learned it's better to behave predictably and not let cars out. I will speed up or slow down as appropriate to try and create a gap but I doubt anyone in a car notices that.

If it makes anyone feel any better it's practically unheard of for a car to let me out when I need to turn right on to the main road at a T junction. On the few occassions when a car approaching from my right has stopped it doesn't help since the traffic approaching from the left won't stop.

Keep_Her_Lit

spottyelephant wrote: »

But im talking real-world context i.e. cyclists are less likely to courteously keep themselves out of the way so it would be close to 100% of cyclists "getting in the way" vs maybe 15% of other road users completely incognisant of cyclists and getting in their way, therefore leaving a close-ish ratio of 1:1 overall numbers wise.

LOL! More of your automagically generated statistics. OK, here's another stat for you - in any debate, I am correct 100% of the time.

I note that the proportion of discourteous cyclists isn't actually 100% but is only "close to" 100%. I'd love to know exactly how close. Can you please briefly check your Amazing Treasure Trove of Irrefutable Statistics and tell us, apart from your good self, just how many courteous cyclists are out there.

... an anecdotal example ...

... can always be found to prop up any dubious statistical claim.

waiting for a gap in traffic to pull through, I have yet to experience a cyclist realising that they were going to block my once-in-10-minute chance to get through the traffic, and slow to let me out. Cyclists will cycle on no matter what saying "why should I slow, you have an engine". Whereas cycling along a cycle path in Dublin in rush hour, I'd probably only experience a car severely encroaching on the cycle lane once ever 30 or 40 cars I go past.

Why not compare like with like? When you're on your bicycle, stopped at a T-junction waiting to turn right, with free moving traffic approaching from the right, how often will that traffic come to a standstill to let you out? By the way, the question isn't posed as an attempt to justify some kind of tit-for-tat attitude - "they don't stop for me, so I'm not going to stop for them" - but merely to point to the obvious fact that people on their way somewhere usually want to maintain progress insofar as possible, regardless of whether they are driving or cycling. I don't expect traffic to stop to let me out. I'll just take the next available safe gap that appears.

No I wasn't; I wrote that second sentence explicitly because I knew someone would try and say that I was saying it in direct response. I stand by myself and gaurantee that I wasn't trying to execute what you've suggested above!

Spare me. If it isn't your intention to stir it up, then don't bother introducing phrases like "ignorant, stupid, or thoroughly unobservant" in the first place.

As I've mentioned on boards before, I'm a cyclist, motorcyclist, and motorist

Big deal. Lots of posters here are motorists too, myself included. I've also spent a good chunk of time as a motorcyclist. So your perspective is by no means unique.

I also make a point of being cognisant of all on the roads. And it works for me as I've never even come close to any scrapes while travelling by any of those means.

Well, you are to be congratulated on that and I hope you can maintain that outlook and your unblemished record.

Hence my whole "mutual road-user" respect mantra

I'm right with you there. I'm all on for peaceful, incident-free journeys. The less stress and aggravation, the better for everyone.

I don't care how people travel, I just don't think people should be entitled to think they are "owed" obstruction-free travel for their personal mode of choice.

It would be truly an exercise in futility for any suburban cyclist to believe that they are "owed" obstruction-free travel. Obstructions are the norm. Threads like this just provide an opportunity to "discuss" them, just as you did with your own anecdote above.

I ride a clapped out 125 tourer

A 125 tourer?! An oxymoron if ever there was one. How much touring have you done on it? Like I said, treat yourself to a proper motorcycle.

Keep_Her_Lit

HivemindXX wrote: »

If it makes anyone feel any better it's practically unheard of for a car to let me out when I need to turn right on to the main road at a T junction.

So that's two of us then.

Keep_Her_Lit

happytramp wrote: »

With some of these......

Mmmmm! Lovely! And being Campag, you can argue that it isn't OT.

Keep_Her_Lit

Lumen wrote: »

Dear Motorbicyclists,

When you decide to stop because you can't fit your fat bike through that gap, can you please leave enough room for me to squeeze past you, rather than stopping in the gap?

Thanks.

As you were.

It's a cat's whiskers thing. They have to wedge themselves into the gap to confirm their initial suspicion that they weren't going to fit through it.