Your irish 22 for the 2015 rugby world cup

blackdog1

Healy
Best
Ross
Henderson/touhy (muller is gone so plenty game time)
Poc
Ferris/pom
Sob
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Bowe
D'Arcy (Marshall I would pick but for concussion
Payne
Trimble
Kearney

Mcgrath
Strauss (schmidt is a big fan)
Moore
Ryan
Copeland (covers 6 and 8)
Reddan ( depends on marmion in the summer tour)
Jackson
Earls ( think he'll bench due to versatility)

Buer

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Payne for one and I would imagine that 3rd choice prop on either side is still open enough with a number of uncapped players in contention.. Every other position I would agree witha number of uncapped players in contention.

We've only ever taken 4 props to a RWC. Can't see if changing to be honest especially with the RWC being in the home nations and replacements available at a few hours notice.

Superbus

rockbeast wrote: »

Did a flying (shoulder!) Fijian not do that in '07?

Ah yeah I think you may be right!

rockbeast

Superbus wrote: »

Ah yeah I think you may be right!

I'm not certain. google it. I can't:)

Buer

Superbus wrote: »

If D'Arcy plays, would he be the first to play in 5 World Cups or has that been done before?

D'Arcy didn't go to the 2003 RWC. He was the highest profile omission.

rockbeast

blackdog1 wrote: »

Healy
Best
Ross
Henderson/touhy (muller is gone so plenty game time)
Poc
Ferris/pom
Sob
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Bowe
D'Arcy (Marshall I would pick but for concussion
Payne
Trimble
Kearney

Mcgrath
Strauss (schmidt is a big fan)
Moore
Ryan
Copeland (covers 6 and 8)
Reddan ( depends on marmion in the summer tour)
Jackson
Earls ( think he'll bench due to versatility)

We're a year out so I think for 18/19 players, barring injuries or a mythical bolter, you'll be very close with your selection.

rockbeast

Buer wrote: »

D'Arcy didn't go to the 2003 RWC. He was the highest profile omission.

Good memory. Forgot about that!

matthew8

Brian Lima played 5 anyway.

rockbeast

matthew8 wrote: »

Brian Lima played 5 anyway.

That's the lad I was trying to remember. Thank you.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

He's by no means out of the running but he needs to have a big few weeks starting immediately to ensure he goes to Argentina. If he doesn't go, the odds of him going to the RWC are really against him.

I wouldn't think his chances are quite that dire, after the Argentina tour there will be 3 AI's and a whole Six Nations campaign, not to mention the RWC warm-ups.

If he plays very well for Munster, plays a good few games at 15 and we get the inevitable winger injuries his case for inclusion in matchday squads will quickly become pretty compelling. Who'd have thought after the last AI's that Trimble would be close to nailed on as travelling to the RWC? Things can change quickly

Hype710

Buer wrote: »

We've only ever taken 4 props to a RWC. Can't see if changing to be honest especially with the RWC being in the home nations and replacements available at a few hours notice.

This is the first RWC with 23 man squads though; I'd wager Michael Bent has a decent chance of travelling as emergency cover on both sides and to bench against the likes of Romania or Canada.

You've left out Marshall and Olding from your list. Olding, in particular, will be particularly valuable to travel as a centre but to provide a third option at ten. And then D'arcy v Marshall for the other 12 spot. Wouldn't say GD is nailed on like the others you've mentioned.

rockbeast

Tox56 wrote: »

I wouldn't think his chances are quite that dire, after the Argentina tour there will be 3 AI's and a whole Six Nations campaign, not to mention the RWC warm-ups.

If he plays very well for Munster, plays a good few games at 15 and we get the inevitable winger injuries his case for inclusion in matchday squads will quickly become pretty compelling. Who'd have thought after the last AI's that Trimble would be close to nailed on as travelling to the RWC? Things can change quickly

Axel will be great for Zebo, I think!

Let him play his game and coach/learn him his defensive responsibilities and Zebo will be great. Foley, I believe, will beat those defensive responsibilities into him...

Buer

I'd agree that they're not dire but definitely not in his favour. I can't see him getting a good few games at 15; Munster have played him there once in 4 years. Jones is the preferred player there and Zebo appears to be deployed in a free roaming role from the wing, not something they could afford him if he's put at 15.

I agree things can change very quickly. One or two injuries and he's back in the 23. The fact that one of the current wing options could well be deployed as a 13 could play in his favour too.

rockbeast

Buer wrote: »

I'd agree that they're not dire but definitely not in his favour. I can't see him getting a good few games at 15; Munster have played him there once in 4 years. Jones is the preferred player there and Zebo appears to be deployed in a free roaming role from the wing, not something they could afford him if he's put at 15.

I agree things can change very quickly. One or two injuries and he's back in the 23. The fact that one of the current wing options could well be deployed as a 13 could play in his favour too.

IMO there's no way Foley will play Jones at 15...

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

I'd agree that they're not dire but definitely not in his favour. I can't see him getting a good few games at 15; Munster have played him there once in 4 years. Jones is the preferred player there and Zebo appears to be deployed in a free roaming role from the wing, not something they could afford him if he's put at 15.

I agree things can change very quickly. One or two injuries and he's back in the 23. The fact that one of the current wing options could well be deployed as a 13 could play in his favour too.

Is that really true? He played there a few weeks ago, is that the first time he's ever played there for Munster?

Buer

Hype710 wrote: »

This is the first RWC with 23 man squads though; I'd wager Michael Bent has a decent chance of travelling as emergency cover on both sides and to bench against the likes of Romania or Canada.

You've left out Marshall and Olding from your list. Olding, in particular, will be particularly valuable to travel as a centre but to provide a third option at ten. And then D'arcy v Marshall for the other 12 spot. Wouldn't say GD is nailed on like the others you've mentioned.

You're right. It was just a shortlist to highlight how hard it's going to be to get into the squad. In previous tournaments, we always had a very established 23 and not too many others who had started games in the 2 seasons prior. Now we have a glut of guys who could travel. Our three initial wingers from last season's 6N weren't in a single 23 this year.

With the 23 man squads, I'd have thought the likelihood of someone like Bent being called upon had diminished even further. Given the location of the WC, I don't think we'll be bringing any lesser quality players as cover in the event of injury or to bench in the lesser games. If someone gets injured, they can be with the squad within a few hours with no time difference.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

Is that really true? He played there a few weeks ago, is that the first time he's ever played there for Munster?

Yup.

He has worn 11 on his back in every single game he has ever played for Munster aside from when playing the Scarlets a few weeks ago.

rockbeast

Buer wrote: »

Yup.

He has worn 11 on his back in every single game he has ever played for Munster aside from when playing the Scarlets a few weeks ago.

i had this "discussion" with you before, You are correct, sir:)

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Yup.

He has worn 11 on his back in every single game he has ever played for Munster aside from when playing the Scarlets a few weeks ago.

Just googled it there and although I couldn't find many games, I did find the Cardiff game at Thomond in February where he made his comeback from injury and played fullback.

2 games in 2 months obviously isn't a lot, but in terms of quality back-up I would put him up there for both Munster and Ireland. He was pretty solid in his 2 games there for Ireland too. I would definitely like to see him get more experience there

Hype710

Buer wrote: »

You're right. It was just a shortlist to highlight how hard it's going to be to get into the squad. In previous tournaments, we always had a very established 23 and not too many others who had started games in the 2 seasons prior. Now we have a glut of guys who could travel. Our three initial wingers from last season's 6N weren't in a single 23 this year.

With the 23 man squads, I'd have thought the likelihood of someone like Bent being called upon had diminished even further. Given the location of the WC, I don't think we'll be bringing any lesser quality players as cover in the event of injury or to bench in the lesser games. If someone gets injured, they can be with the squad within a few hours with no time difference.

If someone pulls a calf in the warm up that will leave us with only one prop on the bench! I wonder will the IRB allow a designated extra prop, so 31 man squads.

Rodney Ah You is another option.

Mahatma Geansai

Buer wrote: »

Yup.

He has worn 11 on his back in every single game he has ever played for Munster aside from when playing the Scarlets a few weeks ago.

He has played fullback 2/3 times for Munster this year. I don't think Zebo's defense will go against him a year from now. Kearney's defense was touted for one of the reasons why Schmidt preferred him in the 6N, but I'd contest that he should have done better defensively for almost every try we conceded in the 6N.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

Just googled it there and although I couldn't find many games, I did find the Cardiff game at Thomond in February where he made his comeback from injury and played fullback.

2 games in 2 months obviously isn't a lot, but in terms of quality back-up I would put him up there for both Munster and Ireland. He was pretty solid in his 2 games there for Ireland too. I would definitely like to see him get more experience there

Apologies. I completely missed that one when I was looking through the game list. Itsrugby.co.uk gives every player and what jersey they wore when playing each game. That's it for his appearances there though.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Apologies. I completely missed that one when I was looking through the game list. Itsrugby.co.uk gives every player and what jersey they wore when playing each game. That's it for his appearances there though.

Cheers thats an incredibly useful site

jacothelad

Hype710 wrote: »

This is the first RWC with 23 man squads though; I'd wager Michael Bent has a decent chance of travelling as emergency cover on both sides and to bench against the likes of Romania or Canada.

You've left out Marshall and Olding from your list. Olding, in particular, will be particularly valuable to travel as a centre but to provide a third option at ten. And then D'arcy v Marshall for the other 12 spot. Wouldn't say GD is nailed on like the others you've mentioned.

Olding can play 10, 12, 13, 15. Given his pace I don't see why he couldnt play on the wing if the need was dire. We'll see how he recovers from injury though. Some players just aren't the same after ligament surgery. A terribly unfortunate injury given he had just played a great game at 10 inc. 5 from 5 kicks. If he does recover he has a good chance.

Zebo also has a similar X factor to Olding but he needs to concentrate on rediscovering his basics. That tackle he missed was a real howler for such a high profiler player. If someone as unfashionable as Trimble or Kearney jnr. had done that, we'd never hear the end of it. It would be a massive stick to beat the bejasus out of their rep.
I see no reason why Zebo shouldn't do so. He can do it as Schmidt requires. He'll have to do what the boss wants. Zebo is a mega talented player.

Bizarrely, I think he has sufferred a bit because he has had a few really simple scores fall his way and his fan club went into hyper ecstasy. In reality any of the other top guys would have nailed them but Simon makes it seem ridiculously easy. I don't think some / most of us are comfortable with some of the gushing and frankly schoolgirlish hero worship one or two players receive from their acolytes. It could negatively and erroneously colour one's perception of a player.

Fireball07

jacothelad wrote: »

Olding can play 10, 12, 13, 15. Given his pace I don't see why he couldnt play on the wing if the need was dire. We'll see how he recovers from injury though. Some players just aren't the same after ligament surgery. A terribly unfortunate injury given he had just played a great game at 10 inc. 5 from 5 kicks. If he does recover he has a good chance.

Zebo also has a similar X factor to Olding but he needs to concentrate on rediscovering his basics. That tackle he missed was a real howler for such a high profiler player. If someone as unfashionable as Trimble or Kearney jnr. had done that, we'd never hear the end of it. It would be a massive stick to beat the bejasus out of their rep.
I see no reason why Zebo shouldn't do so. He can do it as Schmidt requires. He'll have to do what the boss wants. Zebo is a mega talented player.

Bizarrely, I think he has sufferred a bit because he has had a few really simple scores fall his way and his fan club went into hyper ecstasy. In reality any of the other top guys would have nailed them but Simon makes it seem ridiculously easy. I don't think some / most of us are comfortable with some of the gushing and frankly schoolgirlish hero worship one or two players receive from their acolytes. It could negatively and erroneously colour one's perception of a player.

The reason I am such a huge fan of Zebo is that he has a ridiculously good skillset. He's got a great passing ability off either side, not many wings do to that extent. He's got a cannon of a left boot, and when he at his best form, he's almost unbeatable in the air. He also comings looking for work. Add all that to the more obvious attributes like a good step and loads of pace, as well as quite a bit of strength and you've got the makings of a great wing.

Now there's no doubting that some aspects of his game need work- defence has always been a bit of an issue, he does have a tendency to go high when tackling, and that can lead to awful mistakes like against Glasgow. At the same time, I can't remember him making that mistake in the past 2 years- and the likes of McFadden, Earls, Kearney have all been brushed aside in a similar error.


I suppose when you see Earls in the same team hitting rucks like a train and contesting absolutely everything, maybe his work rate when he doesn't have the ball could improve.... and that's probably what's holding him back. I think purely in terms of skill, he's up there with Bowe and Fitz as one of the best we have.


And I hope Olding does make it back, have huge time for him, pure class with ball in hand.

Buer

jacothelad wrote: »

In reality any of the other top guys would have nailed them.

Dave Kearney begs to differ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXmOs8_yUu0

Buer

jacothelad wrote: »

Bizarrely, I think he has sufferred a bit because he has had a few really simple scores fall his way and his fan club went into hyper ecstasy. In reality any of the other top guys would have nailed them but Simon makes it seem ridiculously easy. I don't think some / most of us are comfortable with some of the gushing and frankly schoolgirlish hero worship one or two players receive from their acolytes. It could negatively and erroneously colour one's perception of a player.

I think that's very true. There's a lot of people with an agenda for him and against him. Every mistake gets hyper analysed but, on the other hand, good pieces of play are deemed world class by his supporters.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, for me. He's electric with the ball in hand and an extremely dangerous attacker with a cannon for a boot and a great offload. With that said, he doesn't do the nitty gritty stuff of the game as well as others i.e. clearing a ruck, putting his man to ground quickly and, something that I think plays against him significantly, can yield cheap possession trying to force those great offloads.

Trimble, on the other hand, is all about doing the little things well. He thunders into contact, smashes his man, takes contact, recycles well and runs hard and straight. Nothing overly elaborate but very effective.

If SZ clears up the little details and plays a little more percentage rugby while remaining the running threat that he already is, there's no reason he can't go to the RWC.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

With the 23 man squads, I'd have thought the likelihood of someone like Bent being called upon had diminished even further. Given the location of the WC, I don't think we'll be bringing any lesser quality players as cover in the event of injury or to bench in the lesser games. If someone gets injured, they can be with the squad within a few hours with no time difference.

The replacement has to be permanent though, what if it's just a niggle?

4 props means all 4 of them have to be in every single matchday squad. That's just not realistic to my mind.

Buer

Yup, Hype made the same point and it's fair enough. I think the IRB might just say that it's up to each country to work around it though. For example, we went 16/14 in 2011 and 2007. Perhaps we might have to go 17/13 this time.

Hopefully they give us an extra spot but I wouldn't be shocked or too concerned if they didn't simply because of it being a local RWC.

rockbeast

But if Tom Court is on holiday...at the time...can we call him up...can we?:D

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

Hopefully they give us an extra spot but I wouldn't be shocked or too concerned if they didn't simply because of it being a local RWC.

I wouldn't be unduly concerned if it's a long term injury. Cian Healy misses one match and we're kinda screwed though - no way you can replace him if he'll recover quickly and I'm assuming the other option is going into a match with a 22 man squad and playing with 14 if both props go off...

rockbeast

Podge_irl wrote: »

I wouldn't be unduly concerned if it's a long term injury. Cian Healy misses one match and we're kinda screwed though - no way you can replace him if he'll recover quickly and I'm assuming the other option is going into a match with a 22 man squad and playing with 14 if both props go off...

McGrath/Cronin on bench??? perhaps even Kilcoyne.

It is a 23 for WC or did I miss something

Podge_irl

rockbeast wrote: »

McGrath/Cronin on bench??? perhaps even Kilcoyne.

It is a 23 for WC or did I miss something

Only works if McGrath and Cronin/Kilcoyne are both in the original squad though. 4 props is a huge risk with 23 man squads.

Fireball07

rockbeast wrote: »

McGrath/Cronin on bench??? perhaps even Kilcoyne.

It is a 23 for WC or did I miss something

The point being it is a 23, but it's only a 30-man squad. If Healy gets injured, and we only have 2 LHs, we're hardly going to replace Healy with someone else just for the benefit of that one game.


Although if that one game is a big group game, what else are we supposed to do? Maybe 5 props is the thing to do, bringing Bent or Loughney.... or Ah You. But then you leave yourself short elsewhere. 30 does seem quite small.

rockbeast

Fireball07 wrote: »

The point being it is a 23, but it's only a 30-man squad. If Healy gets injured, and we only have 2 LHs, we're hardly going to replace Healy with someone else just for the benefit of that one game.


Although if that one game is a big group game, what else are we supposed to do? Maybe 5 props is the thing to do, bringing Bent or Loughney.... or Ah You. But then you leave yourself short elsewhere. 30 does seem quite small.

Yes and yes to your points.

WC15 has a broader squad spectrum, though, no?

Podge_irl

rockbeast wrote: »

Yes and yes to your points.

WC15 has a broader squad spectrum, though, no?

We don't know. There hasn't been any indication whether it will be increased from 30.

It might go up to 31.

rockbeast

Podge_irl wrote: »

We don't know. There hasn't been any indication whether it will be increased from 30.

It might go up to 31.

1st point - how did you make my points look drunk:)

2nd point - at least 31 from what I've heard. 32 is at least on the cards...Could be BS/noise again..

Podge_irl

Well I haven't heard anything (not that I would! :P ) so fair enough. I imagine the SH teams especially will push for 31/32 for this RWC and likewise the NH teams will be concious of having a larger squad for 2019 and onwards. We're getting close enough now that something must be announced one way or the other soon enough.

Fireball07

If it does go up to 31/31, that would be good.

Berticus

Tox56 wrote: »

Payne..?

Payne obviously... But that's by default rather than not being able to break in.

The Ireland team doesn't really change that much year by year. Nor should it change that much but it's sometimes funny where people mention talented young guys who are "definitely" going to break in within a few months. It rarely happens...

Harry FM

15-R.Kearney
14-Bowe
13-Payne
12-L.Marshall
11-Zebo
10-Sexton
9-Murray
1-Healy
2-Best
3-Moore
4-Henderson
5-O'Connell
6-O'Mahony
7-O'Brien
8-Heaslip

16-Strauss
17-McGrath
18-Ross
19-Don.Ryan
20-Ferris
21-Marmion
22-Jackson
23-McFadden

Grimebox

I can't see Toner falling out of favour entirely

bilston

The starting point should be the team that just won the Six Nations. I reckon Joe will broadly stick with that group.

SOB comes in obviously, but where? The back row was very balanced in the 6Ns, I wouldn't be too quick to drop Henry although that is the most likely outcome.

We need a replacement for BOD. The next best 13 in Ireland is Cave but Joe seems to have other ideas. It looks like it could be Henshaw as the favoured one and Payne is fancied at 13 too. Do we need to replace D'Arcy? 12 months ago I'd have said yes, now I would say no. Marshall hasn't kicked on (at least not for Ulster).

Then there is Bowe. Well to be fair Trimble has earned the 14 jersey by right for now, but nothing is nailed on as far as the wings go. I've said it loads of times I'd love to see Tommy at 13. But he won't get that chance at Ulster.

Then there are the kids. I've mentioned Henshaw, bit don't forget Hanrahan and Olding.

Anyway its an impossible task to pick a 23 right now, and knowing JS it will change from game to game anyway

Dietsquirt

Harry FM wrote: »

15-R.Kearney
14-Bowe
13-Payne
12-L.Marshall
11-Zebo
10-Sexton
9-Murray
1-Healy
2-Best
3-Moore
4-Henderson
5-O'Connell
6-O'Mahony
7-O'Brien
8-Heaslip

16-Strauss
17-McGrath
18-Ross
19-Don.Ryan
20-Ferris
21-Marmion
22-Jackson
23-McFadden

Deciding which 2 to play between SOB, Ferris & POM at 6 & 7 will prove a very arduous task for Schmidt. I also think Jordi M will have a decent enough chance of getting in with a shout (at 6,7 or 8). He has this summer, and the 6 nations to really prove himself.

Tox56

bilston wrote: »

The starting point should be the team that just won the Six Nations. I reckon Joe will broadly stick with that group.

SOB comes in obviously, but where? The back row was very balanced in the 6Ns, I wouldn't be too quick to drop Henry although that is the most likely outcome.

We need a replacement for BOD. The next best 13 in Ireland is Cave but Joe seems to have other ideas. It looks like it could be Henshaw as the favoured one and Payne is fancied at 13 too. Do we need to replace D'Arcy? 12 months ago I'd have said yes, now I would say no. Marshall hasn't kicked on (at least not for Ulster).

Then there is Bowe. Well to be fair Trimble has earned the 14 jersey by right for now, but nothing is nailed on as far as the wings go. I've said it loads of times I'd love to see Tommy at 13. But he won't get that chance at Ulster.

Then there are the kids. I've mentioned Henshaw, bit don't forget Hanrahan and Olding.

Anyway its an impossible task to pick a 23 right now, and knowing JS it will change from game to game anyway

In fairness at this stage (at least with his pre-injury form) you could ask SOB to perform just about any backrow duty to bring balance to a backrow and he could do it as well as just about anyone in the world. Most likely will be POM and SOB on the flanks but if Ferris does eventually come back you can't count him out

danthefan

All I know is I can't feckin' wait. I'll leave picking the team to Schmidt, he's fairly handy at it.

UnitedWeStand

Harry FM wrote: »

15-R.Kearney
14-Bowe
13-Payne
12-L.Marshall
11-Zebo
10-Sexton
9-Murray
1-Healy
2-Best
3-Moore
4-Henderson
5-O'Connell
6-O'Mahony
7-O'Brien
8-Heaslip

16-Strauss
17-McGrath
18-Ross
19-Don.Ryan
20-Ferris
21-Marmion
22-Jackson
23-McFadden

Apart from switching Toner for Henderson IMO, that teams world class. With Schmidt in charge of it, has the capabilities of having any side.

connachta

UnitedWeStand wrote: »

Apart from switching Toner for Henderson IMO, that teams world class. With Schmidt in charge of it, has the capabilities of having any side.

Henderson is more promising, switch Henshaw for McFadden though

UnitedWeStand

connachta wrote: »

Henderson is more promising, switch Henshaw for McFadden though

Hmm Henderson is has got potential yeah, but he's hardly the tallest now even if he is dynamic. Toner's become quite the player this season and is arguably, based on the 6N at least, the in form lock in the Europe right now. With Henderson we'll only really have two options in the lineout, with Toner we have three and a fairly good chance of stealing opposition ball with him and POC working together.

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

In fairness at this stage (at least with his pre-injury form) you could ask SOB to perform just about any backrow duty to bring balance to a backrow and he could do it as well as just about anyone in the world. Most likely will be POM and SOB on the flanks but if Ferris does eventually come back you can't count him out

That's what I'm saying, SOB could just as easily go to 6 or even 8. He is Ireland's best player.

I guess we will likely see O'Brien at 6 in Argentina so it will be interesting to see how that goes.